PhoenixRising8 Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 (edited) Hi MM, I’ve been following your thread because of my interest in understanding how the married man thinks. You see for about the last year, I have been the other woman. My married man loves me, of that I have no doubt, contrary to what many posters on my thread believe. He says he wants to spend the rest of his life with me but still can’t bring himself to end his marriage even though he knows he is losing me. We broke up but are still speaking. I find talking for me is better than NC but I’ll get to that later. Please don’t dismiss what advice StarsWillShine gives you. That would be a mistake. She may not be your wife but she is a betrayed spouse and understands the emotions. I can tell you that I, as the OW, feel no differently than she does. I feel betrayed and lied to by MM. The wounds are opened and the anxiety returns with every new revelation or bit of information. My reaction is not as severe but it’s fairly intense, or at least it was. Your senses eventually dull and it all becomes less impactful, at least in my case. I’ve been interested in reading your assessment, and others’, of your OW and wonder if it’s really accurate. Perhaps she has started behaving in the way that makes her seem calculating because after 2 or more years, she has come to realize that you are entirely unprepared to give her a future so she is doing what she knows is best for her. Perhaps if you had been willing and able to give her that future in the first year she would not be marrying now. Maybe the fights and partying and planning are all part of her attempt at self preservation. I know you have concerns about the age difference. My exH was 18 years older and we were married for 25 years. Age didn’t need to be a factor. So why am I not NC? Because it actually allows me to detach in a calculated and less painful way. I am a logical thinker and make decisions based on facts and evidence. Slowly I am losing the love because I see how his lies and deception are impacting his family. And I’m losing respect every day. I am wondering why I love him because if he can treat the mother of his children that way, why do I think he will treat me any better should he decide one day he no longer loves me. I have discussed with him how cruel he is being by staying in a marriage where he shows no honesty or respect, much less love. All to no avail because he only sees it from his side. All that to say perhaps you contributed to creating that behaviour in your OW by wanting to keep both your marriage and her and now you only see it from your perspective...that she is deceitful and manipulative and dishonest. Perhaps if you had followed your heart, things would have played out differently. But you wanted both and now you see her as the bad guy. A different perspective for you to consider. Long way of saying that maybe she went through the same thought process as I did and that’s why she started to behave the way she is. After all, it takes two to tango .... Edited April 11, 2019 by LilKatKat
Timshel Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 He doesn't see ow as the 'bad' guy...stop it. There isn't a bad guy in ManMar's scenario....only a drama. This is a journal, nothing more. There are similarities with people who take themselves very seriously with exception of every one else. No person here is posting for your amusement, though you may think so. People have given their advice for the predicament that you have cultivated ManMar and not unlike many in this forum, the rationalizations become fairly endless. You are clearly in your own little world. Do as you wish, honestly, there is more than enough feedback. 2
BaileyB Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 This is a repeated argument in affairs, as if we as humans are only capable of behaving one way. It is a presumption that everything must be a lie. Well, it is not, at least in my experience. Yes, we are capable of lying, that doesnot mean you do it all the time. Let’s just say, it’s not only your wife that you are gaslighting. You have also attempted to gaslight those who are posting here, repeatedly. I have not lied to this OW. She doesnot know what is my mind anymore, but I have not lied to her. I asked her the same, that we needed to keep an island of total transparency between us. If this is true, do you realize that you’ve shown your OW more respect and consideration than your wife. 1
BaileyB Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 But for a guy who made a whole lot of bad decisions to get himself into this mess, doesn’t it seem at some point your should listen to the advice of others? Just sayin... . Sometimes, you just can’t help those who don’t want to be helped... If this blows up on you ManMar, it will be your increadible ego, arrogance, and absolute refusal to consider anyone’s opinion/experience other than your own that brought about your own demise. You will have nobody to blame but yourself... 4
Timshel Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 Sometimes, you just can’t help those who don’t want to be helped... If this blows up on you ManMar, it will be your increadible ego, arrogance, and absolute refusal to consider anyone’s opinion/experience other than your own that brought about your own demise. You will have nobody to blame but yourself... True Bailey, without any diffidence on our part. What happens/happens.
mark clemson Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 Hi ManMar - It'd be interesting to hear the opinions of those that were at the other side, not just the victims. I am sure that most affairs go unnoticed, although this is obviously just my gut speaking, who knows. You have been. There is significant overlap as well as significant variation in the advice. I think the vast majority very genuinely believe the advice they give is for the best, although they may have greater or lesser degrees of conviction in their own views and greater or lesser degrees of sympathy for you vs your wife and OW vs her STBBH (feels very odd to be writing that acronym BTW - I don't think ending the affair this close to the wedding really counts). I got upset that she went away celebrating the farce of this wedding with her closest friends and at the same time was telling my ILY. That is why I asked her if she had disclosed to them, not the details, but at least disclosing that something else really big had been going on. It may seem an inconsistency, it is not in my mind. From her perspective, telling any additional people increases her risk of discovery.
oldlion Posted April 11, 2019 Posted April 11, 2019 After reading that you and your wife had/have an unconventional sex life (threesomes, group sex, etc), I'm no longer overly concerned for her welfare. She could go out tonight and hookup with a willing sex partner and probably feel the same as you do about your other sex partners. With your backgrounds she could have a couple of sex partners hidden away that you don't know about. So no matter what occurs in your marriage she is going to be financially and, eventually, emotional stable. That still leaves the poor uninformed boyfriend that is about to wed into an almost positive life of cheating, deceit, and hurt. She is not going to change and we all know it to be so. You are still standing by and watching destruction in the making when you could save him. It's like the boyfriend has a beautiful cupcake with delicious icing served up in an exquisite manner. He is just about to take a big bit but doesn't know that the cupcake is laced with a deadly dose of rat poison. You know about the poison but you calmly stand by smiling and watch the destruction. I'm pretty sure my conscious wouldn't let me quietly watch someone destroy their life without at least warning them. If he still wanted to continue with the wedding after finding out the truth, then it's on him. And last, if I could lay a bet on the chances of you and her hooking up again, wedding or not, I would feel quiet safe in placing a good bet on the out come. I would be willing to bet that if you and her are ever alone and the opportunity of sex presented itself there would be no stopping either of you. I don't think this is over by a long shot. I do wish you well.
georgia girl Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 I may be reading into something but... If you think that your mutual declarations of love will save you in a wrongful termination claim, think again. The fact is you were not equals and if you in any way damage her career, she’s got a claim. 1
BaileyB Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) I may be reading into something but... If you think that your mutual declarations of love will save you in a wrongful termination claim, think again. The fact is you were not equals and if you in any way damage her career, she’s got a claim. Absolutely. And I may be reading into something but... If you think telling your partner that she may be leaving the business without actually telling him WHY she may be leaving the business is sufficient, you are setting yourself up for big problems... Telling him she “might” be leaving but not telling him why is lying by omission to your partner. If I was your partner, I would be very angry when this blows up. I have told my partner that she might be leaving, I also told my wife. I wanted to give a heads up so that it is all smoothed. My partner will want to retain her, so I have to make clear with her that staying close in any way is not an option. If your partner wants to retain her, and you tell her she has no option but to leave... well, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I would be curious to see what she will do... Edited April 12, 2019 by BaileyB
PhoenixRising8 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 I may be reading into something but... If you think that your mutual declarations of love will save you in a wrongful termination claim, think again. The fact is you were not equals and if you in any way damage her career, she’s got a claim. MM has said numerous times he doesn't live in the US. Not every country has the same employment laws.
BaileyB Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 MM has said numerous times he doesn't live in the US. Not every country has the same employment laws. She can most definitely create problems in his personal and professional life.
PhoenixRising8 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 Not saying she can't but it isn't necessarily a claim the way it is in North America. Nor are affairs nearly as taboo everywhere in the world. Much depends on where he lives.
Author ManMar Posted April 12, 2019 Author Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) I do appreciate the time and the comments. I dont agree with every opinion, but I am thankful that people are taking an effort. Update- Yesterday was an eventful day, to say the least. I cut the cord with the OW and I talked to my wife. It was very stressful, but I am somehow relieved this is moving in the right direction. For those of you that may rejoice on some divine karma: I am not going to come out of this unscratched, it will have a cost. My wife came to me with questions after some discussions we had last week. I confirmed that I was very emotionally involved with the OW, more than I ever liked to admit. She insisted that it is very obvious that my mind is still on her, that I love her. I reassured her that I want we stay together (which is totally true). I also told her that everything is over (which is also true). She was angry, disappointed, sad and all the other natural emotions. I think this is just the beginning, she will be much angrier with me the moment she starts really digesting this episode. I am not sure our marriage will survive, she is very passionate woman, and may or may not decide to end it. I talked to the OW. For the last couple of weeks, it was me who was holding the house of cards, she wanted to end it. Once I pushed back, the relationship has collapsed. We have burnt the ships between us. She agreed on a radical break out and on leaving the company asap. She asked me for some time to think about the details. This conversation was also extremely painful to me. We briefly discussed her wedding, she insists she cant get out now. I told her not to do that to her BF, to think about what she was doing to him, to walk away from the whole situation, me included, and to start over somewhere else. I told her that otherwise she will regret it for life. She responded that she is a coward, that she cant. She even mentioned that she has had suicidal thoughts (I honestly dont know what to think of that, she may perfectly be manipulating me, but I do think she is at the edge of an emotional breakdown). I have this mixed feelings when I push for the end of the wedding, part of my motivation is still that I cant stomach it, part is that I dont like seeing her doing something so nasty, part of it is bc I feel empathy for her BF. I have a moral dilemma as to how to handle this. I dont want to act on the wrong motives. I am going to talk to my partner. He deserves to know. I am not going to go into details, but I am going to tell him that I simply cannot work with her, as I have feelings that have gotten out of hand. I will answer his questions. He will be very upset, betrayed, disappointed and maybe breaks the partnership. I am prepared for that. With regards to the wedding, I am surprised that my wife told me she is not sure she wants to cancel the trip. I dont think she would listen to me as to why I think it is the worst idea to attend, if I pushed not to go she would definitely go. Again, my wife is emotional and super brave; she is now hurt, she is capable of anything. If she sees the least connection between the bride and me, she would make a scene with absolutely no remorse. She also told me, "if you want to go with her, dont wait until the last minute, dont ask her not to marry the wedding day". My wife still thinks I am going to go with the OW; understandably, she just would not listen to me when I say that I dont have that intention and that there is no relationship between us anymore. I dont think we will go to the wedding. Once I disclose to my partner, he probably wont come. At that moment, most likely my wife will change her mind. I now have to deal with the aftermath of the mess I have created. This is far from over. I am assuming the OW would simply go, as she has decided to marry, it is her freewill; I dont expect any hesitation or coming back to me, she is not hysterical nor impulsive. It is in her best interest to avoid more drama. I think the likelihood of getting out of hands because of her is very moderate. I am assuming my partner will listen to me, react smoothly, and think about what has happened. He can perfectly decide that there is break of trust he is just not willing to swallow. I think there is a 50/50 chance on this. Wit regards to my wife, she may send me away when anger sets in. If we go beyond that hurdle, she may decide to give it a go, but it may not work. I have no idea what can happen. With regards to her reaction to the OW, I think she is going to keep it between us, but she may act on an outburst. The wedding is nitroglycerine, I will do everything possible not to go. Edited April 12, 2019 by ManMar
Author ManMar Posted April 12, 2019 Author Posted April 12, 2019 sir, I'm one of the people who has advised you to tell the truth, and it's not because I was hurt. That was exquisitely painful. As for the lying...your ow is well versed in that it's actually quite disgusting. She will bleed her poor husband dry and then move on, I guess. What I don;t get it how you can go to the wedding and see his face, full of hope and love when he looks into hers and makes vows to her. I just couldn't do that. There would be too much guilt. I hope they don't have kids. That would be one of the most selfish things she could do. I do think you have been well intentioned with your comments, as most people. In fact, you have been quite insightful and helpful, but that does not make your opinions right or wrong in general, I just dont agree on everything. I also think your personal experience colors your opinions, as with everyone else, me included. Given how this is moving, I dont think I will attend the wedding, but still up in the air. I feel empathy for her BF, but in my list of guilt, he is not at the top. More than guilt I feel he does not deserve what he is getting into, I have only met him twice, but it seemed to me a good guy, totally into her.
Author ManMar Posted April 12, 2019 Author Posted April 12, 2019 Hi MM, Please don’t dismiss what advice StarsWillShine gives you. I’ve been interested in reading your assessment, and others’, of your OW and wonder if it’s really accurate. Perhaps she has started behaving in the way that makes her seem calculating because after 2 or more years, she has come to realize that you are entirely unprepared to give her a future so she is doing what she knows is best for her. Perhaps if you had been willing and able to give her that future in the first year she would not be marrying now. Maybe the fights and partying and planning are all part of her attempt at self preservation. I know you have concerns about the age difference. My exH was 18 years older and we were married for 25 years. Age didn’t need to be a factor. perhaps you contributed to creating that behaviour in your OW by wanting to keep both your marriage and her and now you only see it from your perspective...that she is deceitful and manipulative and dishonest. Perhaps if you had followed your heart, things would have played out differently. But you wanted both and now you see her as the bad guy. After all, it takes two to tango .... Hello, thanks for the time. I am not dismissive of any comment. I am also not easily offended, as you have probably noticed, so it is not that I disregard the comments I dont like. I have just stated the obvious, that these situations are so emotionally involving that our opinions are biased by our personal experience, it is just unavoidable. Btw, I am not an exemption, that is why I read other peoples comments, everything together provides a better picture and helps me thing more broadly. On your comment on the OW, you have to understand that I am still in love with her, so it is not that I think she is evil. I dont like her behavior sometimes, there are red flags and inconsistencies, but I try to have present how difficult is this whole mess. Most of the time, she has been just coping and reacting to an extremely demanding situation. I have to say that I am not the easiest guy around, so no doubt I have contributed to her erratic reactions many times. My reactions have also be erratic, emotional and selfish sometimes. She is doing what she has to do, which is to continue with her life. Whether I like it or not, maybe she loves that guy. I am doing the same, I am continuing with my life; I may not be mad for my wife, but I do think she is the woman of my life and once this obsession goes away, I will see her again as my trusted companion. Many times I was in a position to actually pull the trigger and go with the OW, I didnot do it. It is not fair that I now place the blame on her. Thanks-
Author ManMar Posted April 12, 2019 Author Posted April 12, 2019 After reading that you and your wife had/have an unconventional sex life (threesomes, group sex, etc), I'm no longer overly concerned for her welfare. She could go out tonight and hookup with a willing sex partner and probably feel the same as you do about your other sex partners. With your backgrounds she could have a couple of sex partners hidden away that you don't know about. So no matter what occurs in your marriage she is going to be financially and, eventually, emotional stable. That still leaves the poor uninformed boyfriend that is about to wed into an almost positive life of cheating, deceit, and hurt. She is not going to change and we all know it to be so. You are still standing by and watching destruction in the making when you could save him. It's like the boyfriend has a beautiful cupcake with delicious icing served up in an exquisite manner. He is just about to take a big bit but doesn't know that the cupcake is laced with a deadly dose of rat poison. You know about the poison but you calmly stand by smiling and watch the destruction. I'm pretty sure my conscious wouldn't let me quietly watch someone destroy their life without at least warning them. If he still wanted to continue with the wedding after finding out the truth, then it's on him. And last, if I could lay a bet on the chances of you and her hooking up again, wedding or not, I would feel quiet safe in placing a good bet on the out come. I would be willing to bet that if you and her are ever alone and the opportunity of sex presented itself there would be no stopping either of you. I don't think this is over by a long shot. I do wish you well. hahaha, I like the irony of your closing. Thanks. You seem a little bit too focus on the sex, even a bit vengeful when you talk about what other people do, as if sex was the center of a sacred universe and only the pure of mind had the key. Sorry to disappoint, I dont look at it that way, sex is not the center of anything to me, not in my marriage, not in this A story. Also, there is a difference between assumptions, evidence, opinions and perfect crystal balls. I just cant predict the future as accurately as you do. Congrats.
Author ManMar Posted April 12, 2019 Author Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) She can most definitely create problems in his personal and professional life. The search for karma continues! I honestly dont give a damn about my profession anymore. I am not bragging, I am just not interested, I wish I was, . I was a workaholic for too long. The OW could not be more irrelevant in that respect. My only concern is that I have a business partner and employees. I do have a responsibility from that point of view. The OW leaving is going to create a problem, as she was a key person in a small team, but we will figure it out. Edited April 12, 2019 by ManMar
PhoenixRising8 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 Hello, thanks for the time. I am not dismissive of any comment. I am also not easily offended, as you have probably noticed, so it is not that I disregard the comments I dont like. I have just stated the obvious, that these situations are so emotionally involving that our opinions are biased by our personal experience, it is just unavoidable. Btw, I am not an exemption, that is why I read other peoples comments, everything together provides a better picture and helps me thing more broadly. On your comment on the OW, you have to understand that I am still in love with her, so it is not that I think she is evil. I dont like her behavior sometimes, there are red flags and inconsistencies, but I try to have present how difficult is this whole mess. Most of the time, she has been just coping and reacting to an extremely demanding situation. I have to say that I am not the easiest guy around, so no doubt I have contributed to her erratic reactions many times. My reactions have also be erratic, emotional and selfish sometimes. She is doing what she has to do, which is to continue with her life. Whether I like it or not, maybe she loves that guy. I am doing the same, I am continuing with my life; I may not be mad for my wife, but I do think she is the woman of my life and once this obsession goes away, I will see her again as my trusted companion. Many times I was in a position to actually pull the trigger and go with the OW, I didnot do it. It is not fair that I now place the blame on her. Thanks- I think you miss my point. As much as you may have red flags about her behaviour and have thought about what they mean in relation to her trustworthiness and how that impacts the foundation of your relationship, she has likely done the same and reached the same conclusion hence her moving ahead with the wedding. You have done much analysis of her and her behaviour and motivations. I strongly suspect she did the same and reached the same conclusion, hence the increased arguments. Over the course of your affair, you have shown her that as much as you say you love her, you don't love her enough to want to be with her. So why shouldn't she marry someone else. You stay married. My point is, you are both behaving in the same manner yet you wonder about her motivations and see red flags in her. Ironic and hypocritical.
Starswillshine Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 You told your wife it is over. Yet, you talked to the OW and asked her again to stop the wedding. Lies and more betrayal. And I'm sure you'll comenack here with all sorts of rationalizations. Your poor wife. She is suffering. She is saying things to gage your reaction. You wont just tell the woman everything. She wants to know. And you see it.... and you keep on with this attachment to the woman. Which is even worse. Once you can see the pain in your wife's eyes and DON'T stop, that is soul crushing. It is an awful thing to do. You're a selfish arrogant man who cannot see past your own wants and desires. You see to acknowledge that other people may hurt, but you dont seem to give a flying pancake about it. Your actions certainly dont prove it. 2
BaileyB Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 I agree with Starswillshine. At this point, you can’t possibly hurt your wife any more by telling her the whole truth - that the affair was physical. She would have to be stupid not to suspect that it is a physical affair. Just be completely honest with her. The half truths are ridiculous. As for the OW, you have absolutely no right to tell her that she should not marry.
pepperbird Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) A different perspective for you to consider. Long way of saying that maybe she went through the same thought process as I did and that’s why she started to behave the way she is. After all, it takes two to tango .... You forget that she is no different than the mm here. She is also cheating, and worse, she is allowing some poor guy to marry her, knowing she may well either bolt for greener pastures the first chance she gets or continue to cheat with the op or some other guy. Edited April 12, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator off topic 1
pepperbird Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 op, what have you done to be there for your wife right now?
elaine567 Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 ... you talked to the OW and asked her again to stop the wedding. Yes that may be a genuine attempt to further "court" the OW, but I guess it is more about him trying to get out of attending the wedding, especially now since he feels his wife, who still wants to go to the wedding, is capable of making a big scene...
FMW Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 You forget that she is no different than the mm here. She is also cheating, and worse, she is allowing some poor guy to marry her, knowing she may well either bolt for greener pastures the first chance she gets or continue to cheat with the op or some other guy. Exactly! Both the OP and his OW are to blame for this situation, but she is actually taking things to a whole other level - choosing to enter into a NEW "commitment" while continuing her involvement with the OP (doesn't matter how many times they go temporary NC). I honestly just don't get it. I certainly don't feel any sympathy for her on the off-chance that she's marrying just because she doesn't think OP will ever leave his wife. She's dragging someone else into this mess and lying to him - soon in front of a whole group of witnesses to their "vows".
mark clemson Posted April 12, 2019 Posted April 12, 2019 Originally Posted by Starswillshine ... you talked to the OW and asked her again to stop the wedding. Yes that may be a genuine attempt to further "court" the OW, but I guess it is more about him trying to get out of attending the wedding, especially now since he feels his wife, who still wants to go to the wedding, is capable of making a big scene... I thought it was because of what she's doing to the STBBH. But perhaps MM will clarify...
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