How would you react if i told you that...to a certain degree I was afraid of women?

[d0nnivain]

Maybe.

 

 

Different things push different people's buttons.

 

 

The legal standard is would a reasonable [fill in the protected classification] be upset by the behavior?

 

 

For example, I say all the time I'm not a "reasonable woman." You tell me a dirty joke I may laugh (unless I think you are doing it to undercut my power in the work place) but if you touch me inappropriately, all bets are off. I'm gonna respond physically. I had a boss grab my butt once. I whirled around & decked him, right in the nose. He screamed "I'm you're boss; you can't hit me!" My response was "gee, since you grabbed my butt, I thought we were doing offensive touching." He threated to fire me. I threatened to sue him. I went back to work. Ne never touched me or anybody else again.

 

 

So since in my experience many black people would be offended if a white person in the work place called them the N-work, that is language that won't be tolerated at work. Similarly you said you would be offended if somebody challenged your sexual orientation. A person who is gay may take offense at that because they could perceive you as being dismissive or discriminatory of them, somehow saying they are less or different based on who they love. Regardless, the better course of action is to not discuss anybody's sex life at work because who you go home to at night or what color your skin is has no bearing on the tasks you are required to perform for your employer.

 

 

Does that help explain the parameters?

[Malik]

Maybe.

 

 

Different things push different people's buttons.

 

 

The legal standard is would a reasonable [fill in the protected classification] be upset by the behavior?

 

 

For example, I say all the time I'm not a "reasonable woman." You tell me a dirty joke I may laugh (unless I think you are doing it to undercut my power in the work place) but if you touch me inappropriately, all bets are off. I'm gonna respond physically. I had a boss grab my butt once. I whirled around & decked him, right in the nose. He screamed "I'm you're boss; you can't hit me!" My response was "gee, since you grabbed my butt, I thought we were doing offensive touching." He threated to fire me. I threatened to sue him. I went back to work. Ne never touched me or anybody else again.

 

 

So since in my experience many black people would be offended if a white person in the work place called them the N-work, that is language that won't be tolerated at work. Similarly you said you would be offended if somebody challenged your sexual orientation. A person who is gay may take offense at that because they could perceive you as being dismissive or discriminatory of them, somehow saying they are less or different based on who they love. Regardless, the better course of action is to not discuss anybody's sex life at work because who you go home to at night or what color your skin is has no bearing on the tasks you are required to perform for your employer.

 

 

Does that help explain the parameters?

 

It does though in my case its more not questioning my orientation, in fact i honestly consider myself bisexual. But It would be more like "SHUT UP! I know how i sound! GOD!"

 

Still I give you points for Cleaning your bosses clock rather then going right to suing him. Believe it or not to me that shows a lot of restraint.

[basil67]

On a side note maybe this is just me personally. But as a young black man, I would honestly get more upset at someone making fun of the fact that i sound like a gay white dude as opposed to someone calling me the N-word. Which I honestly would just brush off. Am i weird for that?

 

No not weird at all.

 

I agree that getting out and brushing up on small talk is a really good thing to do. Will also be infinitely handy when trying to meet women.

[GorillaTheater]

But It would be more like "SHUT UP! I know how i sound! GOD!"

 

 

Leave off the "God!" part. Otherwise you're going to sound like some gay white dude.

[preraph]

Malik, I can understand your thoughts on it, but as a woman I just have to say that the problem with guys saying things at work and you having to avoid or reject them is that it literally affects your employment. I can attest to this firsthand. Some men will promote women who go along with their advances to some degree and punish those who don't or who squawk when someone less qualified is passed over them simply because someone wants in her pants. There is retaliation for things.

 

One example. A boss I liked and got along with, married, kids, began getting flirty. He told me what if he rented a house for me and what could I afford and then added that of course, he'd have a key. Not one to mince words, I said, "No, your WIFE gets the key." He soured a bit after that. Then next thing I know, a girl who is gay came to me because he'd hit on her after taking her fishing. He knew she talked to me and we were talking and he sulled up at me. He was the supervisor over my direct supervisor and our offices were near each others. It was never the same after that. I didn't get the support I once had from him.

 

It affects our careers, Malik.

[Malik]

Malik, I can understand your thoughts on it, but as a woman I just have to say that the problem with guys saying things at work and you having to avoid or reject them is that it literally affects your employment. I can attest to this firsthand. Some men will promote women who go along with their advances to some degree and punish those who don't or who squawk when someone less qualified is passed over them simply because someone wants in her pants. There is retaliation for things.

 

One example. A boss I liked and got along with, married, kids, began getting flirty. He told me what if he rented a house for me and what could I afford and then added that of course, he'd have a key. Not one to mince words, I said, "No, your WIFE gets the key." He soured a bit after that. Then next thing I know, a girl who is gay came to me because he'd hit on her after taking her fishing. He knew she talked to me and we were talking and he sulled up at me. He was the supervisor over my direct supervisor and our offices were near each others. It was never the same after that. I didn't get the support I once had from him.

 

It affects our careers, Malik.

 

 

Ok let me preface this by saying yes i agree 100% that that was a dick move on his part. And unfortunately a lot of people can't handle being in a position of power without abusing it...that that's just a sad reality.

 

What I don't understand and this might say a lot about me. Is that being a female in the work place is either harder or easier then a man depending on how you look at this situation.

 

If you denied the advances from your boss which you did. He in turn makes things much more difficult for you as a result, and you as a result have trouble advancing any farther in the company.

 

But say you accepted his advances, entertain him, even go all the way to home-base with him despite his being married. You would then have access to resources and opportunities that your male counterparts otherwise would not have, thereby streamlining your way through whatever profession you may have, and getting into positions of power sooner then you otherwise would have been able to if at all.

 

And if worse comes to worse, you always have blackmail material that you can use on him to drag him through the mud with you.

 

So really whether things are difficult or not for women in the workforce comes down to one very simple question. That being...how much pride and/or shame as a woman do you have?

 

So basically if a woman was cutthroat and ruthless enough, she would take advantage of her boss's perverseness without a second though. Though that says a lot about the woman but regardless, that's how I've always seen it.

 

Long story short, men are kind of expected to do it the hard way, while women can take shortcuts if they don't have a shred of dignity. Least that's how i always saw it. Maybe you can clarify on this.

[RecentChange]

And men could choose to have no dignity and lie and cheat to gain professional advances.

 

If my choices are to be punished for denying sexual advances, or .... To basically behave like a prostitute to get ahead. Are those really choices?

 

Are those choices we, as women should be forced to make? Get ahead with no morals or respect, or be punished for having morals and demanding respect?

 

I don't no really see that as an advantage, because for me, for my morality, lying on my back to get to the top simply isn't an option.

 

Luckily I have never been presented with this conundrum, as I have always worked in professional environments where people understood codes of conduct, and power has never been abused in this way.

 

I have advanced in my career not because I am a woman, but because I have valuable skills, that shine despite being a woman.

[Malik]

And men could choose to have no dignity and lie and cheat to gain professional advances.

 

If my choices are to be punished for denying sexual advances, or .... To basically behave like a prostitute to get ahead. Are those really choices?

 

Are those choices we, as women should be forced to make? Get ahead with no morals or respect, or be punished for having morals and demanding respect?

 

I don't no really see that as an advantage, because for me, for my morality, lying on my back to get to the top simply isn't an option.

 

Luckily I have never been presented with this conundrum, as I have always worked in professional environments where people understood codes of conduct, and power has never been abused in this way.

 

I have advanced in my career not because I am a woman, but because I have valuable skills, that shine despite being a woman.

 

Fair enough very fair.

[Woggle]

Just get to know a woman before you take off that armor in front of her. Truthfully act this way amongst everybody. I have joked around with women I worked and in some cases told dirty jokes but they were just as dirty as me and I know these women would never throw me under the bus. I have never been accused of anything except for my first saying I abused her and the female judge tore her apart over that. After a while you should know where a woman stands on gender issues. Despite what the media, twitter and tumblr would have you believe I truly do not believe most women are extreme feminists who view everything as some war with the patriarchy. Most women are just living their lives and not tweeting about her they think men are trash.

 

Also we are on the verge of a backlash against metoo that rivals what Phyllis Schlafly did to the ERA. I am not saying that is a good thing but this is what happens when you let extremists use what started out as a very good to fight their gender war.

 

The moral of the story is get to a woman and befriend them before you loosen up around them.

[guest569]

Little to do with women and feminism and more about gaining more insight into social interaction and social norms. Learning right from wrong, learning what is appropriate, polite and professional and how to act appropriately in the workplace, with family, friends or a date. Learning what equates as harassment, sexism, bullying and abuse. If you have a handle on these things then there is no reason to be constantly petrified of being falsely accused of rape.

[preraph]

Ok let me preface this by saying yes i agree 100% that that was a dick move on his part. And unfortunately a lot of people can't handle being in a position of power without abusing it...that that's just a sad reality.

 

What I don't understand and this might say a lot about me. Is that being a female in the work place is either harder or easier then a man depending on how you look at this situation.

 

If you denied the advances from your boss which you did. He in turn makes things much more difficult for you as a result, and you as a result have trouble advancing any farther in the company.

 

But say you accepted his advances, entertain him, even go all the way to home-base with him despite his being married. You would then have access to resources and opportunities that your male counterparts otherwise would not have, thereby streamlining your way through whatever profession you may have, and getting into positions of power sooner then you otherwise would have been able to if at all.

 

And if worse comes to worse, you always have blackmail material that you can use on him to drag him through the mud with you.

 

So really whether things are difficult or not for women in the workforce comes down to one very simple question. That being...how much pride and/or shame as a woman do you have?

 

So basically if a woman was cutthroat and ruthless enough, she would take advantage of her boss's perverseness without a second though. Though that says a lot about the woman but regardless, that's how I've always seen it.

 

Long story short, men are kind of expected to do it the hard way, while women can take shortcuts if they don't have a shred of dignity. Least that's how i always saw it. Maybe you can clarify on this.

 

Yeah, but for the women willing to prostitute themselves for their career, they still usually end up getting the bad end of it eventually. Because the guys all line up expecting it, or the married guy doing this to her becomes paranoid the wife will find out at the Christmas party, and poof, she's gone too.

 

Besides, if a woman is willing to prostitute, she can make better money on the streets than in whatever job she's got.

[Malik]

Yeah, but for the women willing to prostitute themselves for their career, they still usually end up getting the bad end of it eventually. Because the guys all line up expecting it, or the married guy doing this to her becomes paranoid the wife will find out at the Christmas party, and poof, she's gone too.

 

Besides, if a woman is willing to prostitute, she can make better money on the streets than in whatever job she's got.

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

[Popsicle]

This is easy. If you're so afraid of a sexual harassment accusation, which can only happen at work, then don't hit on women at work.

 

I hope you're not afraid to talk to women outside of work. No one's going to fire you or throw you in jail for that.

[Chilli]

No l get exactly what op's sayin.

l only thank God these days l don't work with women l really coulldn't be fkd with all the bs and eggshells guys would have to be on these days.

l've even heard women complain about it because none of the guys will be guys anymore they're all too worried about getting hit with some bs. l think some were even complaining right here at LS about it only few wks ago.

 

And no one can say oh , as long as you don't do rah rah , because everyone knows it goes much much further than that , way into totally normal everyday innocent guy women stuff.

 

And does it go both ways . l've had hundreds of women over the years touch me , even grab my ass, so what does she end up in court.

 

l know alot of this stuff coming up would actual legit things, l'm not denying that and it's no good.

But we all know as op said , not all women are legit , there's millions of them out there after some quick settlement money or any opportunity they can get and they jump on any band wagon they that pops up .

Even the girls joke [sometimes] or even threaten it with boys and teachers at school.

Male teachers are fading out because of it l read.

Now they're having trouble getting male teachers here because men don't wanna touch it with a barge pole any more and none of the kids are getting male role models at school anymore because they're turning into all female teachers.

 

Well these days if you even smiled at one of those it could be twisted around or misconstrued or God knows what.

Or they can just make it up, as they do all the time.

So it must be a nightmare these days and l'm just thankful l don't have to deal with it you couldn't even trust having a women friend at work these days. Well l wouldn't.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Chilli

[CptInsano]

So it must be a nightmare these days and l'm just thankful l don't have to deal with it you couldn't even trust having a women friend at work these days. Well l wouldn't.

 

It's not a nightmare, but especially as a manager you will have to be more careful. But very little of this is new. Public perception is just catching up with what has been corporate policy for the longest time. I haven't been interviewing women without another woman present for ages, and I won't go out for lunch with a female co-worker or employee unless somebody else joins us. At the beginning of my career I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

 

Does the old world still exists? Yes, it does, but it is very much below the surface and among people who trust each other.

[preraph]

It's not a nightmare as long as you don't act like the office is a nightclub.

[CptInsano]

Like CpnInsano said, we men now have to make a bunch of special steps to make sure we stay out of trouble. All because of a few ladies that might be the type to cry wolf.

 

My concern wasn't even that I have to take special steps. I don't ask out women I work with, nor do I make sexual jokes or touch them inappropriately. That has never been a concern.

 

However, I manage people, and I lay them off, too. I used to manage a department with a high turnover in the past, and you get accused of all kinds of stuff. It's just a function of people being angry at you, because you mess with their livelihood. So my concerns are not at all about what I do, but rather about not giving these people an angle.

[RecentChange]

Yeah I don't know... I haven't experiences this "nightmare" that is the result of the #metoo movement.

 

I work in a professional environment. There are no sexual jokes. There are no sarcastic jabs, there is no inappropriate touching.

 

Now, I understand a warehouse situtation, or a construction yard may be different, because, perhaps codes of conduct are not so clearly understood and adhered to.

 

But in my life, do I go out to lunch with my male manager? Yep!

 

Do we all go out to drinks? Yep! Might I have a drink with my manager while the rest of the party arrives... you bet.

 

Now - he has the sense to not invite a person from the office out to drinks - I do the same. I don't invite one on one drinking with any of my coworkers. We are coworkers, not drinking buddies.

 

And as a married woman, I do not think my husband would be thrilled with me going out to drinks with a man from work, and I wouldn't be thrilled with him going out to drinks with a woman he worked with.

 

I don't think that is too unusual.

 

Again, its understanding social norms and adhering to them.

 

I would like to hear some first hand experiences from people who HAVE been accused by women for things that they did not do in the work place.

 

I don't think it is as rampant as portrayed here by many men, who seem to be sharing "what if" stories, rather than actual accounts.

[Malik]

Yeah I don't know... I haven't experiences this "nightmare" that is the result of the #metoo movement.

 

I work in a professional environment. There are no sexual jokes. There are no sarcastic jabs, there is no inappropriate touching.

 

Now, I understand a warehouse situtation, or a construction yard may be different, because, perhaps codes of conduct are not so clearly understood and adhered to.

 

But in my life, do I go out to lunch with my male manager? Yep!

 

Do we all go out to drinks? Yep! Might I have a drink with my manager while the rest of the party arrives... you bet.

 

Now - he has the sense to not invite a person from the office out to drinks - I do the same. I don't invite one on one drinking with any of my coworkers. We are coworkers, not drinking buddies.

 

And as a married woman, I do not think my husband would be thrilled with me going out to drinks with a man from work, and I wouldn't be thrilled with him going out to drinks with a woman he worked with.

 

I don't think that is too unusual.

 

Again, its understanding social norms and adhering to them.

 

I would like to hear some first hand experiences from people who HAVE been accused by women for things that they did not do in the work place.

 

I don't think it is as rampant as portrayed here by many men, who seem to be sharing "what if" stories, rather than actual accounts.

 

Honestly it sounds to me like the best approach is to just keep to yourself and don't bother anyone at work unless you need to.

 

End of the day they are your coworkers not your friends. You aren't there to be all buddy buddy with anyone. You're there to work, get paid and go home. That's it. Just do your job and don't bother anyone unless it's work related.

 

Does that sound anti social? Yes. Really it's better then trying to associate with people you likely don't wanna see outside of work anyway.

[RecentChange]

I don't think it's antisocial.

 

It's professional. You are right, they aren't my friends or buddies. Do we get along well? Yep! Do we laugh together, yep!

 

We are a team, we have each other's backs when it comes to getting our jobs done etc - but we avoid the emotional entanglement and familiarity that marks a true friendship.

[Malik]

I don't think it's antisocial.

 

It's professional. You are right, they aren't my friends or buddies. Do we get along well? Yep! Do we laugh together, yep!

 

We are a team, we have each other's backs when it comes to getting our jobs done etc - but we avoid the emotional entanglement and familiarity that marks a true friendship.

 

That's so cold....

[d0nnivain]

Honestly it sounds to me like the best approach is to just keep to yourself and don't bother anyone at work unless you need to.

 

End of the day they are your coworkers not your friends. You aren't there to be all buddy buddy with anyone. You're there to work, get paid and go home. That's it. Just do your job and don't bother anyone unless it's work related.

 

Does that sound anti social? Yes. Really it's better then trying to associate with people you likely don't wanna see outside of work anyway.

 

 

It does sound a little anti social. There is this lovely place between strangers & friends. It's called acquaintances. No they are not on social media. No you don't spend time with them when they are out of work but you generally are polite, you make small talk & you wish them well. For example, you say good morning or good night; you tell them to have a nice trip if you are aware they are going on vacation; perhaps you ask them if they enjoyed the Olympics or you discuss the weather. Either way you are not stand-ofish, mean or unapproachable. You are polite & kind but not overly involved in their lives nor are they too intertwined with you.

[Malik]

It does sound a little anti social. There is this lovely place between strangers & friends. It's called acquaintances. No they are not on social media. No you don't spend time with them when they are out of work but you generally are polite, you make small talk & you wish them well. For example, you say good morning or good night; you tell them to have a nice trip if you are aware they are going on vacation; perhaps you ask them if they enjoyed the Olympics or you discuss the weather. Either way you are not stand-ofish, mean or unapproachable. You are polite & kind but not overly involved in their lives nor are they too intertwined with you.

 

That still seems somewhat distant, but then again what else is new for me?

[Woggle]

I have lifelong friends from work which include some women and nobody has ever accused me of anything. The only woman to ever accuse was my ex who lied about abuse when I refused to agree to alimony.

[Malik]

I have lifelong friends from work which include some women and nobody has ever accused me of anything. The only woman to ever accuse was my ex who lied about abuse when I refused to agree to alimony.

 

So should i just do my best to avoid those that are particularly uptight?