How would you react if i told you that...to a certain degree I was afraid of women?

February 12, 2018

No you do not change your personality, and you don't have to be "fake". For instance, among my friends I curse like a sailor. But I would never curse on a conference call with a customer.

With friends I use slang and causal language, at work, I make a point to speak properly.

With friends, I would poke one in the ribs and tell "hey lighten up!" - at work I will give someone a smile and a laugh.

Again, its kinda like behaving in school - did you ever have to do that?

Yes, if you ever want to have more than a very basic "job".

Even then, you need to learn how to effectively work with teammates. There are very few jobs where social skills do not matter.

Ok first off that's common sense stuff, of course you're not gonna curse in front of customers what do you take me for? I just feel coworkers should be more open about who they are with who they work alongside that's all.

I'm talking something along the lines of going from enthusiastic nerd/geek to stoic super serious desk jockey

Also don't mock my job at amazon, for what it is i enjoy it.

February 12, 2018

Real sexual assault or discrimination is a problem.

A compliment is not actionable nor should something innocuous be used to dilute how serious a real assault is. Especially as a woman I get so upset when I see women misusing the system or failing to stick up for themselves. Women have voices & are allowed to use them to say "no."

There are certain things you don't talk about at work. Sarcasm is rarely well received & often misinterpreted. Don't use it work. Do not touch co-workers. Don't make questionable jokes. It's really not that complicated.

this for sure....deb

February 12, 2018

I read your other thread about finding a girlfriend http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/search/652325-where-start

Unfortunately everything you've described on this thread pretty much guarantees that you won't get a girlfriend until you sort out your behaviour.

Getting a girlfriend requires you to have more social awareness. Your 90% sarcastic humour is guaranteed to offend a woman before you even get off the ground. Or if you can hold back on the sarcasm, you will make a snide comment and she'll give you a stink eye and walk away.

You also need an awareness of why it's important to behave appropriately in different situations. At present, a hypothetical girl won't be able to trust you to behave in front of her parents or friends. How could she take you to a nice event if you behave in the same way you do with your mates?

Learn to behave appropriately for each different environment. Dump the sarcasm for actual wit. Become an adult.

February 12, 2018

I read your other thread about finding a girlfriend http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/search/652325-where-start

Unfortunately everything you've described on this thread pretty much guarantees that you won't get a girlfriend until you sort out your behaviour.

Getting a girlfriend requires you to have more social awareness. Your 90% sarcastic humour is guaranteed to offend a woman before you even get off the ground. Or if you can hold back on the sarcasm, you will make a snide comment and she'll give you a stink eye and walk away.

You also need an awareness of why it's important to behave appropriately in different situations. At present, a hypothetical girl won't be able to trust you to behave in front of her parents or friends. How could she take you to a nice event if you behave in the same way you do with your mates?

Learn to behave appropriately for each different environment. Dump the sarcasm for actual wit. Become an adult.

And that last comment pretty much invalidates any other point you may have had. But hey not everyone thinks john Oliver is funny, No harm in that. But I shouldn't have to change who i am just to make someone else happy. You won't change your behavior for me...why should I have to do so for your sake? What you just described isn't a boyfriend, it's an escort. And if that's what she wants then i hope she's ready to pay.

Frankly I wouldn't waste my time with anyone that i felt wasn't genuine.

If putting on an act to make others happy is what it means to be an adult, I rather remain a child.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Malik

February 12, 2018

But...90% of my humor is sarcasm...

i understand what you mean op the line between real sexual harassment and sexual assault has been blurred and a possible ill timed joke can land you in hot water...i dont think its right or fair.....in yesteryears ...if someone told a blue joke you just hey that sucked i dont like that joke....or can you not ....if someone touched your shoulder or arm and you didnt like the way it lingered on your skin.......a simple "hands of the merchandise buddy"....a a simple "man dont touch me or ill bite you...........now its ...a letter taking someone to court .........im all for laws regarding sexual harassment and im all for as donnivain said the power of a voice to say stop and no...

harrassment for me involves repeated sexual touches after being told no.... or trying to leave and followed or sought out......sexual assault when again ..told no...no no no no ..and it happens anyway.....i dont feel the lines should be blurred but instead very defined...black and white..and i dont believe in filling courts with case after case of inappropriate behaviors when ...it can be handled rather well personally by voicing your personal space is needed or through the chain of command....

the best thing to do as donnivain pointed out is dont touch......and dont tell rude jokes....if you have a sarcastic sense of humor save it for those who know you and keep work professional only..be friendly but maintain a defined personal space.....its the only way for men and also women to not be at risk of being censured for sexual harrasment....

for me personally.....i promised myself the next man who sexually assaults me...im not going to freeze or have my voice taken from me..fi they grope me or manhandle me and i mean real assault...real harrasment........im taking their fingers......im going to kick their ass black and blue... ..no court for me.....

there's lots of women who would handle things themselves and will let you know if you make them uncomfortable or make them feel unsafe...........and not take it further as in court and public humiliation ...in that though...be respectful of everyone men and women at all times...and you dont need to fear

keep your space around you...be friendly but save the jokes for your friends and family who appreciate your wit.........deb

February 12, 2018

i understand what you mean op the line between real sexual harassment and sexual assault has been blurred and a possible ill timed joke can land you in hot water...i dont think its right or fair.....in yesteryears ...if someone told a blue joke you just hey that sucked i dont like that joke....or can you not ....if someone touched your shoulder or arm and you didnt like the way it lingered on your skin.......a simple "hands of the merchandise buddy"....a a simple "man dont touch me or ill bite you...........now its ...a letter taking someone to court .........im all for laws regarding sexual harassment and im all for as donnivain said the power of a voice to say stop and no...

harrassment for me involves repeated sexual touches after being told no.... or trying to leave and followed or sought out......sexual assault when again ..told no...no no no no ..and it happens anyway.....i dont feel the lines should be blurred but instead very defined...black and white..and i dont believe in filling courts with case after case of inappropriate behaviors when ...it can be handled rather well personally by voicing your personal space is needed or through the chain of command....

the best thing to do as donnivain pointed out is dont touch......and dont tell rude jokes....if you have a sarcastic sense of humor save it for those who know you and keep work professional only..be friendly but maintain a defined personal space.....its the only way for men and also women to not be at risk of being censured for sexual harrasment....

for me personally.....i promised myself the next man who sexually assaults me...im not going to freeze or have my voice taken from me..fi they grope me or manhandle me and i mean real assault...real harrasment........im taking their fingers......im going to kick their ass black and blue... ..no court for me.....

there's lots of women who would handle things themselves and will let you know if you make them uncomfortable or make them feel unsafe...........and not take it further as in court and public humiliation ...in that though...be respectful of everyone men and women at all times...and you dont need to fear

keep your space around you...be friendly but save the jokes for your friends and family who appreciate your wit.........deb

Ok see YOU I like. You're willing to get your hands dirty and take matters into your own hands. I respect that.

But yeah I much prefer women who handle things on their own rather then make some big song and dance out of it.

Don't like it tell me fine. Won't do it again. That's it. A and B we're done.

So yeah definitely appreciate your mindset

February 12, 2018

And that last comment pretty much invalidates any other point you may have had. But hey not everyone thinks john Oliver is funny, No harm in that. But I shouldn't have to change who i am just to make someone else happy. You won't change your behavior for me...why should I have to do so for your sake? What you just described isn't a boyfriend, it's an escort. And if that's what she wants then i hope she's ready to pay.

Frankly I wouldn't waste my time with anyone that i felt wasn't genuine.

I have no idea why you say I would not change my behaviour for different people who I'm with. It's called having social skills. That said, I would not choose as a friend someone who is sarcastic and says snarky things.

It is your prerogative to stay how you are: Without a girlfriend. Afraid of getting in trouble for saying inappropriate things to coworkers. Nobody is telling you that you must change. But if you want a life which is better than you currently have, you will have to make some decisions.

February 12, 2018

I have no idea why you say I would not change my behaviour for different people who I'm with. It's called having social skills. That said, I would not choose as a friend someone who is sarcastic and says snarky things.

It is your prerogative to stay how you are: Without a girlfriend. Afraid of getting in trouble for saying inappropriate things to coworkers. Nobody is telling you that you must change. But if you want a life which is better than you currently have, you will have to make some decisions.

Then you and I have completely different values and would likely not get along, so if we were to be in the same workplace, just stay out of my way and I'll stay out of yours. I'm glad we could get that cleared up.

In fact to be honest, You're exactly the kind of woman im so terrified of upsetting.

Also please don't talk like you speak for all women, you just look pretentious as a result.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Malik

February 12, 2018

In fact to be honest, You're exactly the kind of woman im so terrified of upsetting.

You'd be frightened of upsetting me at work because I'd tell you to pull your head in if you were snarky? If you can't cope with a woman standing up to snarkiness, you'd better change your approach.

February 12, 2018

You'd be frightened of upsetting me at work because I'd tell you to pull your head in if you were snarky? If you can't cope with a woman standing up to snarkiness, you'd better change your approach.

No I'm afraid of upsetting you because i worry you would take it out of context and cause a big commotion out of it.

Whether it's out of genuinely being offended or to give me a hard time just because you don't like me would still be up in the air though.

February 12, 2018

@Malik from me experience I can tell you that more honest I was at work, and people in general, I gained more respect from them.

And having social skills is great, but if you are lying yourself that's wrong.

February 12, 2018

@Malik from me experience I can tell you that more honest I was at work, and people in general, I gained more respect from them.

And having social skills is great, but if you are lying yourself that's wrong.

Exactly that's what i like to think should be the best way to go. Thank you.

February 12, 2018

Malik

You don't have to be a "stuffed shirt" nor do you have to "act." What you do need to learn to do is pick your time & place. Because people like basil67 & I exist in the work place.

I'm very confident & have pulled more than one person aside who has offended me, pointed out what the problem was & carried on fully expecting & usually getting that the offensive behavior won't be repeated. Again, you have to realize there is a time & place for everything. Some sarcastic joke I might find hilariously funny in a bar if we were friends, I will bite your head off for if you tell it to me as a supervisor in the work place.

It really is like the example you were given that you classified as common sense: you don't curse at the customers. Similarly, you use your best "company manners" & be extra polite, not too casual & the slightest bit stand-ofish at work, including after hours get togethers, parties, happy hours, etc. People get in trouble when they assume a familiarity that doesn't exist. Just be more reserved & you should be fine.

You don't afraid of women in the co-workers but until you master the art of personal interaction, being more circumspect can't hurt.

Employers are running scared an adopting a zero tolerance policy.

February 12, 2018

No I'm afraid of upsetting you because i worry you would take it out of context and cause a big commotion out of it.
Whether it's out of genuinely being offended or to give me a hard time just because you don't like me would still be up in the air though.

But of course, if you listened to the previous advice about being professional at work and treating others with respect, you wouldn't find yourself in the situation to start with.

February 12, 2018

of course no one is talking about the women who harass men

February 12, 2018

Malik

You don't have to be a "stuffed shirt" nor do you have to "act." What you do need to learn to do is pick your time & place. Because people like basil67 & I exist in the work place.

I'm very confident & have pulled more than one person aside who has offended me, pointed out what the problem was & carried on fully expecting & usually getting that the offensive behavior won't be repeated. Again, you have to realize there is a time & place for everything. Some sarcastic joke I might find hilariously funny in a bar if we were friends, I will bite your head off for if you tell it to me as a supervisor in the work place.

It really is like the example you were given that you classified as common sense: you don't curse at the customers. Similarly, you use your best "company manners" & be extra polite, not too casual & the slightest bit stand-ofish at work, including after hours get togethers, parties, happy hours, etc. People get in trouble when they assume a familiarity that doesn't exist. Just be more reserved & you should be fine.

You don't afraid of women in the co-workers but until you master the art of personal interaction, being more circumspect can't hurt.

Employers are running scared an adopting a zero tolerance policy.

I guess It is just better to keep distant in the work place, cause end of the day they are my co-workers not my friends and there's no point in trying to act all buddy buddy with anyone short of the simple smile and wave.

All i should be expected to do is go in, do my work and leave anything else is extra.

of course no one is talking about the women who harass men

Because a woman would NEVER consider doing something like that right?

February 12, 2018

Exactly that's what i like to think should be the best way to go. Thank you.

Years ago once I was in camp organized by Christian group. Friend of mine invited me there. He knew I was not a believer. I remember that I almost question everything preachers were saying because I did not like idea to accept dogmas. I did not afraid to say that I don’t like it, or I don’t believe it.

Funny thing happened. Organizers started to question their own ideas so as believers. Even if they did not change much them believes, I was one of the most popular person in camp and lot’s of people were interested with having conversation with me. There was a lot of respect, much more than other blind sheep’s. Preaches of course did not like that my behavior, but I would turn back time and were there again, I would act exactly the same.

February 12, 2018

Years ago once I was in camp organized by Christian group. Friend of mine invited me there. He knew I was not a believer. I remember that I almost question everything preachers were saying because I did not like idea to accept dogmas. I did not afraid to say that I don’t like it, or I don’t believe it.

Funny thing happened. Organizers started to question their own ideas so as believers. Even if they did not change much them believes, I was one of the most popular person in camp and lot’s of people were interested with having conversation with me. There was a lot of respect, much more than other blind sheep’s. Preaches of course did not like that my behavior, but I would turn back time and were there again, I would act exactly the same.

hmmm Well said. I couldn't agree more.

February 12, 2018

I guess It is just better to keep distant in the work place, cause end of the day they are my co-workers not my friends and there's no point in trying to act all buddy buddy with anyone short of the simple smile and wave.

All i should be expected to do is go in, do my work and leave anything else is extra.

No. You can be friendly but stick to neutral subjects: did you have a nice weekend? Did you see the skiing miracle in the Olympics yesterday? Do you think it will ever stop raining? How 'bout them Mariners (you said you work for Amazon so I'm thinking Seattle)

You don't have to be a robot but avoid the polarizing subjects: sex, religion, & most of all politics.

As for ffar's example -- questioning religious beliefs at a religious event while slightly hostile is OK. Doing it at WORK is a big no no.

February 12, 2018

No. You can be friendly but stick to neutral subjects: did you have a nice weekend? Did you see the skiing miracle in the Olympics yesterday? Do you think it will ever stop raining? How 'bout them Mariners (you said you work for Amazon so I'm thinking Seattle)

You don't have to be a robot but avoid the polarizing subjects: sex, religion, & most of all politics.

Chicago. And unfortunately i find all 3 of those topics fascinating. I love knowing people's thought processes and what makes them tick.

Following others train of thought and finding out why they think the way they do. It's quite enlightening, provided they don't get so heated about it.

But then again i consider myself a moderate and believe in balance on many of said subjects so take it how you will.

It also doesn't help that I'm absolute GARBAGE at small talk.

February 12, 2018

of course no one is talking about the women who harass men

Well, if you read the thread it would be obvious why that wasn't really relevant to his original problem and question.

And if you didn't read the thread, how do you know no one was talking about it?

Anyone of any persuasion behaving in an over-the-top obnoxious manner at work is not being very professional. Whether that's by making sexual references, insulting jokes, religious evangelism, irritating political commentary, or going on a rant about how much you hate men/women/raceX/religionX/countryX/whatever.... all of these things are not professional behavior and may make your colleagues uncomfortable.

February 12, 2018

Chicago. And unfortunately i find all 3 of those topics fascinating. I love knowing people's thought processes and what makes them tick.
Following others train of thought and finding out why they think the way they do. It's quite enlightening, provided they don't get so heated about it.

And they're great things to ask about, in the right environment.

The workplace isn't it.

February 12, 2018

Enjoying those subjects probably makes you a fascinating conversationalist in a social setting. Do not lose that part of yourself but at work shut up about that stuff, until you master the incredibly difficult art of disagreeing without being disagreeable. Most people can't do it. You have to master small talk first. Sorry.

I remember being on a cruise once . . .where they sit you with strangers. I found a kindred spirit & we talked about all the taboo subjects even though we disagreed. Our SOs, the wait staff and some of our dining companions spent most of the evening cringing. He & I had a blast.

Like I said: there is a time & place for everything. Work is a place to be non-controversial & extra polite.

February 12, 2018

Well, if you read the thread it would be obvious why that wasn't really relevant to his original problem and question.

And if you didn't read the thread, how do you know no one was talking about it?

Anyone of any persuasion behaving in an over-the-top obnoxious manner at work is not being very professional. Whether that's by making sexual references, insulting jokes, religious evangelism, irritating political commentary, or going on a rant about how much you hate men/women/raceX/religionX/countryX/whatever.... all of these things are not professional behavior and may make your colleagues uncomfortable.

On a side note maybe this is just me personally. But as a young black man, I would honestly get more upset at someone making fun of the fact that i sound like a gay white dude as opposed to someone calling me the N-word. Which I honestly would just brush off. Am i weird for that?

February 12, 2018

Enjoying those subjects probably makes you a fascinating conversationalist in a social setting. Do not lose that part of yourself but at work shut up about that stuff, until you master the incredibly difficult art of disagreeing without being disagreeable. Most people can't do it. You have to master small talk first. Sorry.

I remember being on a cruise once . . .where they sit you with strangers. I found a kindred spirit & we talked about all the taboo subjects even though we disagreed. Our SOs, the wait staff and some of our dining companions spent most of the evening cringing. He & I had a blast.

Like I said: there is a time & place for everything. Work is a place to be non-controversial & extra polite.

Sigh...welp I suppose i should start getting some practice in on discord and some social gatherings in my city huh?

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