The Wildfire of Sexual Harassment

[Southern Sun]

The problem with separating "unwanted" sexual harassment from "wanted" (??) sexual overtures is when the issue of power comes in.

 

If a woman (or man) is in a room with a powerful person (specifically, someone who has power over them), who expresses attraction or sexual interest in them, and he/she admires that powerful person, has been mentored by that powerful person, and is potentially intimidated by that powerful person, can we count on he/she to respond completely honestly?

 

This is the tough part. It's an unfair predicament. Let's say the powerful person asks to have sex, or even, "Do you want to see my genitals?" What does the other person say? They may believe in the back of their minds that their job is at stake on some level. Or they just might feel unable to be totally boundaried. So the answer sounds like, "Sure." "Okay, yeah." It sounds like consent. It seems like we have two consenting adults.

 

Where is the line there?

[BikerAccnt]

Southern, in those cases there is no line.

 

And I see a definite difference between expressing attraction to someone, and asking them if they want to see my genitals. One I would find pleasing, the other, not so much.

 

I would have no problem answering honestly to someone who did that. Even mt boss.

 

But that is easy for me to say I admit. I'm a guy, I tend to like women who pay attention to me, and, I'm not afraid of being physically restrained or overpowered by most women. That alone makes a big difference.

[Chris2016]

How come its never the other way around. Women sexually harassing men and no man has come out to say anything.

 

Ohhh there is! It doesn't happen to me because I don't have the looks. But I've seen it happen to good looking guys. Some mentioned about it. Some are married, and it makes them uncomfortable. Some women can be just as bad as men, but they get a way with it. Can't wait for this sh*t to blow up on them too.

[GunslingerRoland]

Honestly, none of the stories coming out are: He said she looked pretty today, what a monster. It's "he took off his clothes, or grabbed me without asking" I think that is pretty clear sexual harassment, and not tolerable in any workplace. I know I'd be fired if I did any of the things that those celebrities have been accused of.

 

Of course you can date people in the workplace, but I think now, as always you should proceed with a little more caution if it's a workplace romance.

[GorillaTheater]

Honestly, none of the stories coming out are: He said she looked pretty today, what a monster. It's "he took off his clothes, or grabbed me without asking" I think that is pretty clear sexual harassment, and not tolerable in any workplace. I know I'd be fired if I did any of the things that those celebrities have been accused of.

 

Of course you can date people in the workplace, but I think now, as always you should proceed with a little more caution if it's a workplace romance.

 

 

Another thing to note: I don't see too many of these guys denying the allegations against them.

[GunslingerRoland]

Right! I remember when I was in college a few years back, a creepy, 19 YO girl was sexually harassing the crap out of me. A group of us were in an elevator together and she was directly in front of me. When everyone walked off the elevator, she stopped, ground her butt right into my package, then looked back and smiled. She had been hitting on me for a while and I kept turning her down each time. I wasn't interested. At all. Still, would I complain about it? Nope. Imagine if I were to do that to a woman who had continuously turned me down. I would be all kinds of a sexual predator, denounced by everyone who knew me. When she did it, people just thought it was funny. Myself included.

 

That is awful, and it is sexual harassment. The thing is that it's probably 20 or 100 cases of a man harassing vs. every 1 of a woman harassing. Both are equally important on a single incident level, but one is an epidemic problem and the other isn't at this point.

 

It's like people trying to turn black lives matter, into all lives matter. It's unarmed black people being killed by the police, that was the whole issue...

[thefooloftheyear]

This is the tough part. It's an unfair predicament. Let's say the powerful person asks to have sex, or even, "Do you want to see my genitals?" What does the other person say? They may believe in the back of their minds that their job is at stake on some level. Or they just might feel unable to be totally boundaried. So the answer sounds like, "Sure." "Okay, yeah." It sounds like consent. It seems like we have two consenting adults.

 

Where is the line there?

 

 

You say no and remove yourself from the situation......simple as that...

 

Look....it's real simple...If you(not you personally;)) as a woman value your job more than your dignity and self respect, enough so that you have to stoop to that low of a level, then I really feel sorry for some of you..

 

I mean, we are now living in an age where a woman can just about own a company in a lawsuit for a legitimate sexual misconduct case...So rather than go down on a superior against your will, sue the shyt out of them...

 

TFY

[GorillaTheater]

sue the shyt out of them...

 

 

The problem with most of these cases is evidentiary. There usually aren't photos of some guy groping a sleeping employee, or pictures of some other employee's junk that he sent you. Usually, it's He Said She Said, and even at an investigatory phase (which I'm involved in pretty regularly), it can be tough. Our investigators are trained to weigh credibility, but that too can be tough when you're on the stand or in a deposition being crossed by an aggressive attorney and getting increasingly upset in the process.

[thefooloftheyear]

The problem with most of these cases is evidentiary. There usually aren't photos of some guy groping a sleeping employee, or pictures of some other employee's junk that he sent you. Usually, it's He Said She Said, and even at an investigatory phase (which I'm involved in pretty regularly), it can be tough. Our investigators are trained to weigh credibility, but that too can be tough when you're on the stand or in a deposition being crossed by an aggressive attorney and getting increasingly upset in the process.

 

 

Fair enough....And I won't challenge an attorney's perspective;), but you have to know that a lot(a majority?) of these cases settle and never make it to trial...I have a friend of the family do this...6 figure settlements from major financial brokerage houses....twice no less..!!

 

And maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I find it highly suspect that in every one of these cases it's a "quid pro quo" ...Some? Sure....But I bet a lot were based on the assumption of a woman that doing the deed would put them in better standing or perhaps keep them from losing their job, even though it was never put that way..

 

I'm not minimizing it....Hang them all by the nuts for all I care....but some of this stuff is probably not exactly as its being laid out...

 

TFY

[Chris2016]

That is awful, and it is sexual harassment. The thing is that it's probably 20 or 100 cases of a man harassing vs. every 1 of a woman harassing. Both are equally important on a single incident level, but one is an epidemic problem and the other isn't at this point.

 

It's like people trying to turn black lives matter, into all lives matter. It's unarmed black people being killed by the police, that was the whole issue...

 

That's reported.

 

Could be even more. But men don't report it. For those very reasons, it's minimalized (sexual harassment doesn't happen to men); guys are sexual creatures so they should like it (even though the girl is butt ugly and he has not interest, at all, and/or he might be married or has a girlfriend);

Edited November 30, 2017 by Chris2016

[Chris2016]

BS! That's lazy thinking. Same logic as the men or people or powers that be, who know of the sexual harassments and do nothing.

 

"Boys will be boys".

"You have to pay your dues".

We can't ruin our reputation or brand.

Whistle blowers will be silenced.

So what if a lowly intern's sexual harassment is swept under the rug.

He's the face of the NBC.

Priests don't molest children.

You get might point.

 

She actually said

"If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay."

 

The greater good usually triumphs over any squeamishmess over innocent people suffering, it is the way the world works.

Did any of these men worry about the innocent women they abused? Did the men who knew and covered it up worry abut them either?

This is an opportunity for women to make their voices heard and yet again we are being sidelined into talking about the poor men...

Edited November 30, 2017 by Chris2016

[lana-banana]

Men can be and are sexually harassed, and can be raped, assaulted, or otherwise treated in ways they don't welcome. Saying things like "eh, most of them probably want it" just contributes to the issue of men feeling self-conscious about reporting assault. All victims, whether they're male or female or non-binary or whatever, deserve our attention and respect.

 

There was a case here on these very boards not that long ago (told from the woman's perspective) about a man who was sexually harassed at work. Part of the woman's confusion was that she felt all men secretly welcomed this, so why not continue? It ended with the man complaining repeatedly to his supervisors and eventually getting what amounted to a workplace restraining order.

 

All of us, no matter what gender, deserve the right to do our jobs without worrying about other people's sexual desires or attraction. (It's interesting that no women are complaining about how new allegations are making their workplaces more complicated...almost like they aren't interested in flirting at work?!) Let's all be respectful, do what we can to help each out, and focus on the mission.

[GorillaTheater]

Fair enough....And I won't challenge an attorney's perspective;), but you have to know that a lot(a majority?) of these cases settle and never make it to trial...I have a friend of the family do this...6 figure settlements from major financial brokerage houses....twice no less..!!

 

And maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I find it highly suspect that in every one of these cases it's a "quid pro quo" ...Some? Sure....But I bet a lot were based on the assumption of a woman that doing the deed would put them in better standing or perhaps keep them from losing their job, even though it was never put that way..

 

I'm not minimizing it....Hang them all by the nuts for all I care....but some of this stuff is probably not exactly as its being laid out...

 

TFY

 

 

The most notable quid pro quo case I've seen is when a student recorded her prof telling her that she'd get an A in the class if she met him at a hotel. A tenured prof was summarily dismissed over that one.

 

 

A lot of times the "this for that" is implied when it comes to a superior. "Go along and I'll let you keep your job/GPA".

 

 

I'm telling you that there's a steady stream of this stuff. As men with daughters, we need to fry their asses.

[Southern Sun]

Fair enough....And I won't challenge an attorney's perspective;), but you have to know that a lot(a majority?) of these cases settle and never make it to trial...I have a friend of the family do this...6 figure settlements from major financial brokerage houses....twice no less..!!

 

And maybe it's the skeptic in me, but I find it highly suspect that in every one of these cases it's a "quid pro quo" ...Some? Sure....But I bet a lot were based on the assumption of a woman that doing the deed would put them in better standing or perhaps keep them from losing their job, even though it was never put that way..

 

I'm not minimizing it....Hang them all by the nuts for all I care....but some of this stuff is probably not exactly as its being laid out...

 

TFY

 

I think it's commonly assumed rather than stated outright. But the issue is - shouldn't the person in the position of power have some responsibility there? Shouldn't they be aware of the predicament they are putting their subordinate in by asking her to do something she may not feel able to give a completely honest answer to?

 

You can say - easy, woman, value yourself and your dignity over your job. But that's assuming the woman has been taught how to do that. Many women have been taught how to please and be submissive instead.

 

As the person with greater power, you have a moral obligation NOT to put your subordinate in that predicament.

 

Unfortunately, if a boss/person in power chooses to do so anyway, it can lead to a confusing situation. It may appear to be legitimate and consensual and then both people are in a real pickle.

[Sweetfish]

Love the media...

 

Remember when every minute they placed stories on BLM and cops involvement with other races and the hysteria it created... welcome to round two.

 

When you go on a witch hunt you will find witches.

 

You found a hand full of men in power out of the millions of men and created a false reality and a scare. Congrats..

 

It is great to be a woman in western society these days and those who say they are powerless and oppressed are nuts.

[thefooloftheyear]

I think it's commonly assumed rather than stated outright. But the issue is - shouldn't the person in the position of power have some responsibility there? Shouldn't they be aware of the predicament they are putting their subordinate in by asking her to do something she may not feel able to give a completely honest answer to?

 

You can say - easy, woman, value yourself and your dignity over your job. But that's assuming the woman has been taught how to do that. Many women have been taught how to please and be submissive instead.

 

As the person with greater power, you have a moral obligation NOT to put your subordinate in that predicament.

 

Unfortunately, if a boss/person in power chooses to do so anyway, it can lead to a confusing situation. It may appear to be legitimate and consensual and then both people are in a real pickle.

 

I dunno.....

 

I am so sick of this "power" word thrown around.......Power to do what? Fire you? ....Call you a dried up prude??...So effing what.??..Stand up for yourself...Be strong!! This is not anything any woman should be "confused" about"...

 

We have spent decades empowering women, backing them, telling them they don't need to take crap from any man...Stand on their own two feet, yet now they can't even tell some creepy aszhole to go eff himself and leave her alone??

 

I'm sorry, maybe it's just me, but I hope to hell my daughter doesn't think anyone has that kind of "power" over her...Pathetic that some can try and rationalize this..I'm not victim blaming here, just can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that some women would actually put up with this....for any amount of time..

 

And sure, the guys should know better, but some guys have no respect...No big newsflash there....Some guys think women are their play toys..Well...stick it to them...Hard..

 

TFY

[some_username1]

She actually said

"If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay."

 

The greater good usually triumphs over any squeamishmess over innocent people suffering, it is the way the world works.

Did any of these men worry about the innocent women they abused? Did the men who knew and covered it up worry abut them either?

This is an opportunity for women to make their voices heard and yet again we are being sidelined into talking about the poor men...

 

I wonder if she would be so bullish if her son was the innocent party?

 

These feminists make me laugh, nothing gets the worm to turn like a feminist who becomes a mother to boys. I've seen so many repenting their ways on parenting forums and cursing the day they burned their first bra, it's like modern day exorcism

[some_username1]

Why is she saying she'd pay the price?? What price would she pay??

 

Myself and just about any guy I know would send another guy to the ER for just about any type of unwanted sexual advance/behavior from some guy to any woman we know or care about...I mean,...not even a threat??

 

So why have not any of these guys gotten their asses kicked???

 

TFY

 

When an innocent person gets sent to prison and we all stand round and laugh then we ALL pay eventually.

 

A core tenet of an advanced and tolerant society is innocent until proven guilty and the notion that it is better for 10 guilty PEOPLE to walk free than an innocent PERSON get sent to jail.

 

We undermine that at our peril because it won't just stop at men, we will ALL be required to prove our innocence before the law based on nothing more than an accusation and idiots like that moronic feminist certainly won't get special treatment in the eyes of the law.

[Timshel]

It isn't 'moronic feminists' it's moronic people in general; those who take offense when having a backbone is all that is necessary..and those who push other person's limits because of egoism or mental illness.

 

We all, men and women, have to have a backbone, in our private lives as well. Since when have 'we' collectively decided that everyone has to accept everything all the time? I was never taught this.

Good luck making that happen/ I mean an environment that is devoid of controversy, without personal challenge and devoid of any perceived offense.

 

In the work place, men or women who come to work and have sex on the brain aren't working hard enough...and again are self absorbed twits who should be fired because they are at work and obviously not working.

 

The discussion and outing of perps who abuse power and apparently have way too much time on their hands is fantastic.

[Sweetfish]

It isn't 'moronic feminists' it's moronic people in general; those who take offense when having a backbone is all that is necessary..and those who push other person's limits because of egoism or mental illness.

 

We all, men and women, have to have a backbone, in our private lives as well. Since when have 'we' collectively decided that everyone has to accept everything all the time? I was never taught this.

Good luck making that happen/ I mean an environment that is devoid of controversy, without personal challenge and devoid of any perceived offense.

 

In the work place, men or women who come to work and have sex on the brain aren't working hard enough...and again are self absorbed twits who should be fired because they are at work and obviously not working.

 

The discussion and outing of perps who abuse power and apparently have way too much time on their hands is fantastic.

 

 

Drop the feminist act and become identified as a person in general who thrives for equality.

 

A collective is being created and that collective is distorting and creating a narrative. Any woman right now has the power to destroy with little to no blow back and with anonymity now. That includes the narcissist and sociopaths.

 

 

without recorded evidence, a backbone is not going to save you. A little girl once accused me of raping her and finally admitted she lied. A co-worker had to leave his job from embarrassment when a women accused him of rape and was locked up over night because the boyfriend found out they were having sex and she used it as a safety net. I've seen countless women use rape as a means to protect themselves as fear being branded as the Scarlett letter.

 

So when self proclaim feminist come on TV and chanting women rarely lie or never lie is cringe worthy.

 

So there has to be a balance and waiting 4 or 20 years later (with the exception of children) is not responsible because it allows the true criminals to continue to be criminals.. Man or woman.. once you get raped or assaulted come forward asap. Maybe parents are not teaching their kids. Maybe buttoning down your shirt was identified as consent to Matt, but don't collect Oscars, Positions, or awards for selling your soul to the devil allowing other men and women to be harmed while you collect million dollar pay checks... than ask women 15 years later to join you...

[Timshel]

The crime of sexual assault is not limited to women. I see the point you are making Sweetfish.

 

Any person who makes a false accusation against others is not only a liar but further harming innocent victims who would come forward.

 

So then we agree, sexual assault/intimidation is abhorrent. Whether the assailant is a man or woman.

 

Most often, (grown) women are intimidated by physical strength and (grown) men with male on male.

 

Any time a person, male or female in fear of life, income (and potential), reputation and a general well being from forced sexual contact...it's a problem.

 

This isn't men against women or women against men.

 

It's people against as*holes...it works both ways.

[basil67]

So, the question as to what the future will be:

 

Story from a friend's workplace about a week ago: Christmas party, one drunken guy getting handsy with women. Friend sees what's going on and says to another couple of younger men "don't leave him alone with those women". Young men spend the evening making sure the women are safe.

 

This is becoming a time for good men to step up.

 

I asked my hubby if he's afraid of false accusations. He replied that he's not at all concerned. A) Because he knows how to behave and B) Everyone likes him so there's no reason for anyone to make up stories in order to hurt him.

[carhill]

Only takes one though, especially if the person is a cash register. There are billions of potential perps on the planet and more being born every minute. Mike Pence covered it well. Actually, IMO, it's the nice friendly innocent cash registers who should be most on the lookout. The female side playing the game for profit is no different than the handsy and mouthy men. Billions of them, potentially. I used to work with a lot of them and got the smackdown (physically in my industry) and the shunning for 'sticking up' for women. I know. Fortunately, I've never been a cash register worth pulling the handle on. Small gifts.

[Shining One]

I asked my hubby if he's afraid of false accusations. He replied that he's not at all concerned. A) Because he knows how to behave and B) Everyone likes him so there's no reason for anyone to make up stories in order to hurt him.

If only these two things made one immune to false accusations. Sadly, they do not.

[some_username1]

If only these two things made one immune to false accusations. Sadly, they do not.

 

And it is rather depressing that the takeaway seems to be that we have to suck up to our female overlords just to keep them from crying wolf on us. What a great time to be alive.

 

The onus should be on everyone to be a responsible and decent human being and not just be on men to a) behave and b) make strategic alliances to cover their ass.