When you like what you cant have?

August 3, 2017

I'd recommend a book called The Happiness Trap. There is a cycle people go on trying to be happy all the time. It doesn't work. With growth there is always struggle. Failure, rejection, disappointment, frustration, etc. are all part of the process. People that try to live life without experiencing any of those things don't succeed in life. If you want a full, rich life, you're going to need to put yourself in uncomfortable situations. And work hard. And then bounce back and try again if you do fail. Or get rejected.

Well it makes sense if you're using avoidance as a coping mechanism. The problem is that date on Saturday shouldn't even be playing in your head anymore. Because your dating numbers are so low, each one has an unhealthy amount of significance. So Saturday date, you were incompatible. Next! No emotional energy needed.

So basically you're choosing to live in your head. That's a very safe option. No chance of getting rejected that way. And that's the big fear right? That you'll fall for someone and once they get to know you, they won't love you back?

I'd recommend taking the risk anyways.

That's the way you grow. You do the stuff you don't like to accomplish the goal.

Are you referring to going to bars? Well I too would suggest that if you're planning the date, stick to stuff you do enjoy and feel comfortable doing. Especially early on. But your dating partner is a person and has their own thoughts about things, and if you value her, you'll want to do the things that she wants too!

Again, you shouldn't be trying to sell yourself. Just BE yourself. That's what they're doing. If they're not interested, so be it. You can't be someone you're not.

Maybe just a correlation? Why didn't you have many friends?

Again, feeling horrible about dating is spending way too much emotional energy, and I suspect it's because you have very limited dating experience. If you date more, you'll see that people are just people. And if it's not a match, so be it, move on to the next person.

Yup, this is definitely playing into your fear of rejection. If you actually do fall in love with someone, and she finds out you're inexperienced will she judge you? And then leave you because of it? You're assuming the answer is yes, so you're choosing not to put much effort into dating. I don't think you can read people's minds though can you?

Most adults are in relationships. You're using a very small sample size to draw your conclusions from (or to keep seeing what you want to see).

How many times have you been set up with someone? Is it fair to draw such an absolute conclusion based on a VERY small sample size? I'd guess the people setting you up had no idea if you'd be a good match for the person. That's why you go out on dates!

There is one fundamental thing I disagree on and its the highlighted portion.

By uncomfortable does that mean going to clubs? If so I see absolutely no upside nor any growth potential in that, if I mean doing a speech in front of 150 people like I did yesterday, sure then I would agree.

The problem is a point blank lack of interest ever. Someone hit the nail on the head, its extremely hard to meet people in places where I can actually do well, clubs and bars of completely pointless and if I need to go to those places to find a date, I'd rather just throw in the towel.

Friends, never many because my interest in politics and world affairs never correlated with anyone else's interest growing up. People like to read fiction, I read heavy politics novels. The upside was I did have some interest because I was different and back then people found that interesting, now they just find it odd.

The events of last night once again made me question the age old needs versus wants idea. Its a working relationship with a bit of friend zone thrown in but it works, she wont date me which is fine but I do get some of the companionship benefit.

It would be true to say I probably come across a little cold in person, I don't easily open up to people I don't know hence me having to do a certain degree of selling, if I do that I can sometimes get a date, if I don't a can never get one at all.

Ultimately I guess is all boils down to simple compartmentalisation of life, put the good things to one side and hope they outweigh the less than good things.

August 3, 2017

Is the venue really that big of a deal? If I like someone enough, I enjoy their company anywhere, not write them off because the menus were laminated.

Doing things you don't like is often a necessary precursor to getting things you want. Like going through a lot of schooling to get your degree. Or running a lot to lose weight. Again, you're refusal to accept momentary discomfort or inconvenience is proving to be a gigantic hurdle. Just jump the damn thing, already.

Are you really more content, though? You still seem hopelessly unfulfilled. If I were you, I'd just suck it up, deal with it, and do whatever I had to do without excuse.

People understand, they just don't think it's helpful for you to think this way. You don't understand that hanging your hat on table scraps of attention from someone who has no interest in you is a bad, bad, look. You are advertising yourself as the weakest, least sexually viable male around. The "I'm happy just to know you even if you don't like me" angle is very typical "nice guy" behavior that turns people off very, very quickly.

With that attitude, yes.

If by "benefit" you mean "momentary respite," then it's just a band aid that isn't actually helping you. You need a cure, not a distraction/excuse.

Yes the venue is a big deal. Your analogy of education is irrelevant here, an education is advantageous but not a necessity. Likewise dating isn't a necessity either. I really do not see how doing unpleasant things which make you feel bad can ever be a prelude to something nice. But, I'll concede that point. I guess the many hopeless dates I went on were not hopeless enough, perhaps another 5 years of more of the same will benefit me. No thanks.

You can say what you want but something is a heck of a lot better than nothing and if that's how I am perceived then so be it, I'll leave my opinions of the attitude taken by most others guys I have met to myself but if that's the calibre of behaviour required then yes dating isn't for me at all.

August 3, 2017

Its a working relationship with a bit of friend zone thrown in but it works, she wont date me which is fine but I do get some of the companionship benefit.

K again I assume.

YOU cannot rely on K to fill the relationship void in your life.

One day she is either going to get fed up and leave, or her bf will put his foot down and say enough is enough, you are not hanging about with ZA Dater any longer.

Not many men want their gf/fiancée/wife spending time at events with other guys, especially a guy who would date her in an instant and is besotted with her.

That "relationship" with K will end soon I guess, and you need to take steps to make sure you have something else to replace it.

August 3, 2017

K again I assume.
YOU cannot rely on K to fill the relationship void in your life.
One day she is either going to get fed up and leave, or her bf will put his foot down and say enough is enough, you are not hanging about with ZA Dater any longer.
Not many men want their gf/fiancée/wife spending time at events with other guys, especially a guy who would date her in an instant and is besotted with her.
That "relationship" with K will end soon I guess, and you need to take steps to make sure you have something else to replace it.

I knew there had got to be something else! Thanks for confirming my spidey senses weren't tingling for nothing.

OP, is this whole thread about this K person you want but can't have? I know I've already asked the question but I wasn't sure there actually was someone on the scene.

This would explain the never-ending excuses and the perpetual 'it's not fair, why does this happen to everyone but me' vibe coming off from some of the posts on this thread. None of the reasons you have given so far hold water for the fact you are single; only your state of mind. If you're pining for someone, you won't ever find someone else. If you hate dating and the efforts and uncertainty that come with it, the don't put yourself through it and wait for it to fall on your lap.

Edited August 3, 2017 by littleblackheart

August 3, 2017

K again I assume.
YOU cannot rely on K to fill the relationship void in your life.
One day she is either going to get fed up and leave, or her bf will put his foot down and say enough is enough, you are not hanging about with ZA Dater any longer.
Not many men want their gf/fiancée/wife spending time at events with other guys, especially a guy who would date her in an instant and is besotted with her.
That "relationship" with K will end soon I guess, and you need to take steps to make sure you have something else to replace it.

Your assumption is wrong on this occasion. I am ok being friends with her, I am not clamouring for anything more, she has a bf which who apparently makes her happy.

The benefit if you will is she adds to the events in a professional way, for example she takes pictures, helps me with copy editing. I have never had a friend like this before so its rather nice.

She is paid by a third party for all this work.

I have met her boyfriend and he seems like an ok guy and they seem to work well together.

Honestly, I have my sights set a little higher on someone else but its pretty much impossible but I look at her as motivation to spend that bit extra time working out, motivation to try be a bit more outgoing, try new fashion styles.

August 3, 2017

I knew there had got to be something else! Thanks for confirming my spidey senses weren't tingling for nothing.

OP, is this whole thread about this K person you want but can't have? I know I've already asked the question but I wasn't sure there actually was someone on the scene.

This would explain the never-ending excuses and the perpetual 'it's not fair, why does this happen to everyone but me' vibe coming off from some of the posts on this thread. None of the reasons you have given so far hold water for the fact you are single; only your state of mind. If you're pining for someone, you won't ever find someone else. If you hate dating and the efforts and uncertainty that come with it, the don't put yourself through it and wait for it to fall on your lap.

Not about her, that ship has sailed but in general there are a few others I like but am severely incompatible with for a multitude of mainly social and probably attraction related reasons.

I cant really explain a lot of this without offending a lot of people or appearing aloof, neither of which is my intention or who I am. Its all really a matter of choice I suppose, Normal Person with his stellar career in NYC will have a different choice to someone living in the remote Arizona (not intended to be offensive). It seem to just boil down to that, HOWEVER there is ONE person I know who doesn't do this sort of thing, she dates anyone she finds interesting, almost irrespective of looks and apparently superficial success. The reality is she can choose anyone such are her attributes. Just so happens I don't have degree of choice with my attributes so yes, match what you want and maybe that's the problem I am going after what never matches me because typically those people interest me more/are better looking than what I can actually get. I'll never be the person they want either, typically I am exactly the person divorced moms seem to want which I guess is telling.

The bold made me laugh because lets be honest that doesn't happen....in a movie perhaps.

August 3, 2017

Not about her, that ship has sailed but in general there are a few others I like but am severely incompatible with for a multitude of mainly social and probably attraction related reasons.

I cant really explain a lot of this without offending a lot of people or appearing aloof, neither of which is my intention or who I am. Its all really a matter of choice I suppose, Normal Person with his stellar career in NYC will have a different choice to someone living in the remote Arizona (not intended to be offensive). It seem to just boil down to that, HOWEVER there is ONE person I know who doesn't do this sort of thing, she dates anyone she finds interesting, almost irrespective of looks and apparently superficial success. The reality is she can choose anyone such are her attributes. Just so happens I don't have degree of choice with my attributes so yes, match what you want and maybe that's the problem I am going after what never matches me because typically those people interest me more/are better looking than what I can actually get. I'll never be the person they want either, typically I am exactly the person divorced moms seem to want which I guess is telling.

The bold made me laugh because lets be honest that doesn't happen....in a movie perhaps.

It does happen. Like I said, it's more of a state of mind in the sense that you make yourself open and available to it, and you are receptive to potential advances. Having a laundry list longer than the Nile that next to no-one can match won't help your cause, I feel. And it looks like that hasn't borne any concrete results so far, so a change of tack in your 'game' and more open-mindedness might be in order.

Also, as a divorced mum myself, I find the fact that you are 'exactly' the person divorced mums want extremely hard to believe (no offence), especially if the negative vibes and sense of entitlement coming off your posts permeate offline.

August 3, 2017

By uncomfortable does that mean going to clubs? If so I see absolutely no upside nor any growth potential in that

Of course you don't see it, because you've avoided everything uncomfortable up to this point and have been unsuccessful. God forbid you accept the wisdom of people who have what you want and know what it takes to get them. You're like a kid in school who says "I see no upside in learning math, I want to be an author when I grow up." Just take this poster's (and everyone's) word for it: You will need to do uncomfortable things. You will need to do uncomfortable things. You will need to do uncomfortable things. Just get over it already. If you think you have all the answers, then stop asking for advice.

The problem is a point blank lack of interest ever. Someone hit the nail on the head, its extremely hard to meet people in places where I can actually do well, clubs and bars of completely pointless and if I need to go to those places to find a date, I'd rather just throw in the towel.

Well, you're probably going to have to, so you might as well throw in the towel, then. You had a good run.

Friends, never many because my interest in politics and world affairs never correlated with anyone else's interest growing up. People like to read fiction, I read heavy politics novels. The upside was I did have some interest because I was different and back then people found that interesting, now they just find it odd.

"Common interests" are ancillary. I've never been out with a girl whose interests matched mine. We just had similar values, ethics, morals, goals, senses of humor, attraction, etc.

Its a working relationship with a bit of friend zone thrown in but it works, she wont date me which is fine but I do get some of the companionship benefit.

The sooner you lose this "I'm happy just to know you even if you have no interest in me" attitude, the better. When women complain about men being "too nice," this is precisely kind of thing they're talking about. This woman will never view you as a romantically viable option until you start presenting yourself as such.

Yes the venue is a big deal.

Not as big as you think. Learn to deal with it. You have few other choices. If you were afraid of dogs, I'd sit down with you and say there was a dog in the next room and let you deal. Then I'd bring it in to the far side of this room and let you deal. Then I'd hold it and make you pet it. Then I'd let it down. I would keep doing this until you realized the dog posed no real threat and were no longer afraid of it. You'd be uncomfortable for a while. Then you'd be a stronger person. Just subject yourself to it until it's not a problem for you anymore.

Or, y'know, make excuses as to why that's impossible and continue not getting the things you want in life because you're too scared.

Your analogy of education is irrelevant here, an education is advantageous but not a necessity. Likewise dating isn't a necessity either.

My analogy is fine. You're an excuse factory, and dating is a necessity to you as you as many times you've declared how much happier you're going to be when you admit defeat and just do things you like, yet here you are again for the 100th time looking for dating advice. If it's not a necessity to you, and it causes you this much anguish, and you're not willing to do deal with the anguish, then why don't you just stop?

I really do not see how doing unpleasant things which make you feel bad can ever be a prelude to something nice. But, I'll concede that point.

So in other words, "I know you're right, but admitting it would mean having to do things I don't like so I'll give you my disingenuous 'concession' because this is an argument I can't win."

Very simply, have you ever heard the expression "No pain, no gain?" What do you think that means?

I guess the many hopeless dates I went on were not hopeless enough, perhaps another 5 years of more of the same will benefit me. No thanks.

Yeah, because if things aren't exactly as you like, it's better to just give up rather than try to do anything that might actually change things.

Looking forward to the next thread.

You can say what you want but something is a heck of a lot better than nothing

Talking to a woman is not "something" in this context. It's just talking.

and if that's how I am perceived then so be it, I'll leave my opinions of the attitude taken by most others guys I have met to myself but if that's the calibre of behaviour required then yes dating isn't for me at all.

Just because some men with attitudes you don't like are in relationships doesn't mean that's "required" behavior. There are plenty of well adjusted, sensible, men in relationships. If you want to use exceptions to justify rules in order to keep making excuses as to why you can't do something, then fine. Continue on, you're right, dating isn't for you at all. Maybe just give up?

Edited August 3, 2017 by normal person

August 3, 2017

Just so happens I don't have degree of choice with my attributes so yes, match what you want and maybe that's the problem I am going after what never matches me because typically those people interest me more/are better looking than what I can actually get. I'll never be the person they want either, typically I am exactly the person divorced moms seem to want which I guess is telling.

You're free to have preferences and be picky. I'm very picky. The difference between us is that where I say "well, if I can't help being this picky, I'd better be damn sure I'm appealing enough to date the women I want." Then I work for 10+ hours a day, go to the gym 7 days a week, maintain a strict diet, learn everything I can, forego many time wasting activities like TV and other escapism, (these are the "uncomfortable things" you see no benefit in), whereas you say "those people have no interest in me and I'll never be the person they want either, so I won't even bother."

Do you think there's any fundamental difference there?

My life wasn't this good until I decided I would do anything to make it this good. Your "I don't see any benefit in doing uncomfortable things" attitude trivializes people who work hard for what they want.

Edited August 3, 2017 by normal person

August 4, 2017

You're free to have preferences and be picky. I'm very picky. The difference between us is that where I say "well, if I can't help being this picky, I'd better be damn sure I'm appealing enough to date the women I want." Then I work for 10+ hours a day, go to the gym 7 days a week, maintain a strict diet, learn everything I can, forego many time wasting activities like TV and other escapism, (these are the "uncomfortable things" you see no benefit in), whereas you say "those people have no interest in me and I'll never be the person they want either, so I won't even bother."

Do you think there's any fundamental difference there?

My life wasn't this good until I decided I would do anything to make it this good. Your "I don't see any benefit in doing uncomfortable things" attitude trivializes people who work hard for what they want.

As this post is full of incorrect assumptions let me correct a few

: I do work out and keep fit, sure I am not some over muscled cage fighter but I am relatively fit.

: I too work long hours.

No, I find it trivial to throw all of ones eggs in one basket for the sake of a hypothetical possibility. You can do all those things sure but if you are a introvert then what, I am guessing you say "become an extrovert" which is about as useful as a bathing costume on a winters day in NYC.

When you say you learn everything you an, what is this exactly? At the risk of making assumptions I am guessing this means spend hours in trivial conversation in the hope you can pick up common likes and common ways to try and present something that isn't really who you are but maybe what you present will be appealing to whoever you hope to have relations with.

August 4, 2017

So why don't you just give up then?

I've been following this thread for a while. You seem to think that everything that "normal" people do is beneath you. If we have found someone to date, it's merely because we're sheeple who follow the crowd.

So give up. Just admit that you keep starting threads because any attention is better than no attention. I've looked at your other threads too. It's all the same thing.

There's nothing anyone can say that will help you. What is it you want?

Change your friends. Anyone over 30 who hangs out in night clubs exclusively has not yet grown up. Not sure why you keep looking on Tinder and forcing yourself to go to clubs. Who after the age of 14/15 puts pressure on others to drink?

Change your friends. Simple.

August 4, 2017

So why don't you just give up then?
I've been following this thread for a while. You seem to think that everything that "normal" people do is beneath you.

There's nothing anyone can say that will help you.

Indeed, there is nothing anyone can say... You respectfully disagree with almost every piece of advice given - and that is your choice, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

I was also very picky. I waited a really long time to find the right guy. And, he's not "perfect" but he's pretty "perfect - for me." There is nothing wrong with being picky.

It's your attitude that needs to change if you want to be successful in life. Nobody wants to be around, or date, someone who thinks they are better than everyone else. Nobody wants to be around someone who is always so negative, so rigid, so set in their ways that they can't enjoy life.

I've said it before and I will say it again, you get in your own way of enjoying life and getting the things that you want. You create problems that don't exist and then you blame "something" for not getting what you want... Sadly, you get in your own way and you just don't see it. It makes me sad because you seem to be a nice enough guy who wants to connect with people. I hope you get some counselling and this changes for you someday.

August 4, 2017

As this post is full of incorrect assumptions let me correct a few
: I do work out and keep fit, sure I am not some over muscled cage fighter but I am relatively fit.
: I too work long hours.

Whatever you do or don't do, it isn't enough to help you overcome your fear that keeps you from getting what you want.

No, I find it trivial to throw all of ones eggs in one basket for the sake of a hypothetical possibility. You can do all those things sure but if you are a introvert then what, I am guessing you say "become an extrovert" which is about as useful as a bathing costume on a winters day in NYC.

People have told me there were things I couldn't do, or that my ideas were crazy and would never work, etc. Working hard and proving those people wrong is about as sweet as it gets. You can always learn more, do more, achieve more. You're just using fear as an excuse not to give it a worthwhile try.

When you say you learn everything you an, what is this exactly? At the risk of making assumptions I am guessing this means spend hours in trivial conversation in the hope you can pick up common likes and common ways to try and present something that isn't really who you are but maybe what you present will be appealing to whoever you hope to have relations with.

If there's one thing about me, it's that I'm always "myself," but nice try. Remember in a previous thread when you were going to go out with those models, and I suggest you do it, listen to their conversations, hear what they care about, watch how they act, absorb it all, etc -- and you said that was a waste of time? If you had gone, you might have learned something useful and been able to apply it elsewhere. Women are different. I didn't grow up with sisters. It took time and experience to figure out how different people operated. Everything I learned about women, and other people in general, came from trial, error, observation, the media, etc. It's all a learning experience that can expand your knowledge base. Why do you think I read this forum so much? It's a direct insight into how other people think and view the world. That can be enormously informative and helpful for building interpersonal relationships.

So why don't you just give up then?
I've been following this thread for a while. You seem to think that everything that "normal" people do is beneath you. If we have found someone to date, it's merely because we're sheeple who follow the crowd.
want?

Indeed, there is nothing anyone can say... You respectfully disagree with almost every piece of advice given - and that is your choice, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

Seconded.

August 4, 2017

I was also very picky. I waited a really long time to find the right guy. And, he's not "perfect" but he's pretty "perfect - for me." There is nothing wrong with being picky.

I agree it's ok to be particular about what you want (I am too) but I also think there has got to be some degree of realism and understanding that you get what you put it, and you have to match the high standards you expect from your partner. I may be wrong but I see one (the picky part) but not the other in OP's posts.

OP, I hope you find what you're looking for, but I'm out of fresh ideas.

Good luck!

August 5, 2017

Indeed, there is nothing anyone can say... You respectfully disagree with almost every piece of advice given - and that is your choice, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

I was also very picky. I waited a really long time to find the right guy. And, he's not "perfect" but he's pretty "perfect - for me." There is nothing wrong with being picky.

It's your attitude that needs to change if you want to be successful in life. Nobody wants to be around, or date, someone who thinks they are better than everyone else. Nobody wants to be around someone who is always so negative, so rigid, so set in their ways that they can't enjoy life.

I've said it before and I will say it again, you get in your own way of enjoying life and getting the things that you want. You create problems that don't exist and then you blame "something" for not getting what you want... Sadly, you get in your own way and you just don't see it. It makes me sad because you seem to be a nice enough guy who wants to connect with people. I hope you get some counselling and this changes for you someday.

Bold parts are as far from the truth as Hawaii is from the North Africa.

I actually enjoy life quite well enough thanks, doing things I like when I like and how I like, I get to go to great places, enjoy spectacular cuisine and memorable vista's.

The fact nobody wants to do those things, frankly I am at the point where I couldn't care less.

I am not different to anyone else but the my thinking is different to most it seems based on the near total disagreement with everything I say here.

Thank you for your advice. I'll just continue to be who I am because apparently that makes me a good friend to some (I can hear a groan from NYC as I type this). If being a nice guy makes me undesirable then so be it.

August 5, 2017

Whatever you do or don't do, it isn't enough to help you overcome your fear that keeps you from getting what you want.

People have told me there were things I couldn't do, or that my ideas were crazy and would never work, etc. Working hard and proving those people wrong is about as sweet as it gets. You can always learn more, do more, achieve more. You're just using fear as an excuse not to give it a worthwhile try.

If there's one thing about me, it's that I'm always "myself," but nice try. Remember in a previous thread when you were going to go out with those models, and I suggest you do it, listen to their conversations, hear what they care about, watch how they act, absorb it all, etc -- and you said that was a waste of time? If you had gone, you might have learned something useful and been able to apply it elsewhere. Women are different. I didn't grow up with sisters. It took time and experience to figure out how different people operated. Everything I learned about women, and other people in general, came from trial, error, observation, the media, etc. It's all a learning experience that can expand your knowledge base. Why do you think I read this forum so much? It's a direct insight into how other people think and view the world. That can be enormously informative and helpful for building interpersonal relationships.

Seconded.

The media....enough said really, the same media which project more falsehoods than truth, the same media "your man should be this and that", sorry but I take that 'media" with massive degree of salt, that same media had a lot answer for in term of ruining the self confidence of many women.

I know people that spent years being teased in their formative years because they didn't conform to that media and what it deemed "correct".

Ask yourself if that media has really contributed anything useful to relationships and dating?

The fact I didn't feel like going out and being used a project and a pity party for a bunch of girls who wouldn't be interested in me anyway, sorry the idea of being treated as such has zero appeal. Been there once before have the T shirt and it doesn't fit very well and you know what I learnt nothing at that pity party either.

You mantra is very true in the work arena and I agree with and do as such but dating, being unable to measure progress, being unable to get meaningful feedback makes apply that mantra near to impossible. Its great to prove people wrong and perhaps surprisingly I have managed to do.

For the purpose of full disclosure I recently asked someone who has known me for the last 8 years what she thinks I do wrong, this is probably the only honest lady I know and it was a long list, most related to simply not doing what everyone else does and enjoys. She qualified this by listing all the fantastic things about me BUT they aren't thing which are ever going to be able to offset the long list of unappealing things. At least I got some honesty.

I give some here a hard time and for that I am sorry, I do realise many are offering advice but many of you discount the things I have tried, I mean you cannot believe how much a comment like this irritates me, a friend said to me "wear your hair like that girls like it" even though I don't like that style, the level of irritation went though the roof because frankly must I really walk around not liking what I look like because MAYBE someone else will judge me on a hair style?

Its not like I am sitting back and doing nothing I am actually trying, I went out last weekend with someone I didn't find appealing, chatted to a some people on different sites, looking again at arrangement sites but the cost benefit ratio really isn't there. Met up a few old friends I hadn't seen for a while. I try to talk to random people, met someone today, but no surprise she isn't single.

It'd be nice just for once to meet someone single I do like, really cannot see how I can be blamed for never meeting anyone who is single. All the models are single but unsurprisingly I am not what they want at all in any shape or form.

August 5, 2017

I actually enjoy life quite well enough thanks, doing things I like when I like and how I like, I get to go to great places, enjoy spectacular cuisine and memorable vista's.

Thank you for your advice. I'll just continue to be who I am because apparently that makes me a good friend to some. If being a nice guy makes me undesirable then so be it.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that you can't enjoy life. "Life" is about so much more than a romantic relationship. That's not really what I meant to say. I think what I was trying to say was that in life and when you are looking for a partner, you must be prepared to step outside of your comfort zone and do things that you do not always like/want to do. We all need a gentle reminder sometimes to stay open to new things, new people, new experiences...

But, I still say that the self defeating attitude is exhausting... "If being a nice guy makes me undesirable, then so be it." If that's what you chose to believe, then so be it... I'm going now to meet my boyfriend for his birthday dinner... the nicest and most desirable guy I know.

Best wishes to you. I really hope you find what you are looking for.

August 5, 2017

Thank you for your advice. I'll just continue to be who I am because apparently that makes me a good friend to some (I can hear a groan from NYC as I type this). If being a nice guy makes me undesirable then so be it.

The part where I groaned was where you imply that I ever said anything to the affect of "don't be a good friend," or "don't be nice," or "attraction is binary, either you're nice and undesirable, or mean and desirable." You need to get over this very rigid view already, you're using it as a red herring. There are plenty of perfectly nice men in relationships. All I'm saying is if you want a better shot at entering one, prioritize yourself first and don't be a doormat. That doesn't mean you'll be mean. You'll still be nice, you just won't be spineless.

The media....enough said really, the same media which project more falsehoods than truth, the same media "your man should be this and that", sorry but I take that 'media" with massive degree of salt, that same media had a lot answer for in term of ruining the self confidence of many women.

I'll agree with you here, but we also live in the digital age where you can easily do some digging and find things out for yourself. Also, when your experiences have such a stark contrast to media portrayals, you should question the messages. Failure to do so isn't the media's fault for giving you a message, it's that individual's fault for believing it despite experiencing hard evidence to the contrary.

The fact I didn't feel like going out and being used a project and a pity party for a bunch of girls who wouldn't be interested in me anyway, sorry the idea of being treated as such has zero appeal. Been there once before have the T shirt and it doesn't fit very well and you know what I learnt nothing at that pity party either.

Ahh, yes, you "didn't feel like it," presumably because it was too uncomfortable. So in that one instance, after you deduced they weren't interested in you, did you try and do anything to change their minds, or did you accept defeat, roll over, and die? By accepting their assumptions of you (or rather, what you assume their assumptions of you were), you basically confirmed them. If you had fought or tried to dispel them, you might have learned something, you might have surprised them, you might have gotten them to see you differently, you might have gotten them to respect you, you might have had a chance. But you didn't. People pitied you, and instead of saying "I don't need your pity" and then done or said something admirable, you just accepted their pity. That's the problem, you don't fight back.

You mantra is very true in the work arena and I agree with and do as such but dating, being unable to measure progress, being unable to get meaningful feedback makes apply that mantra near to impossible. Its great to prove people wrong and perhaps surprisingly I have managed to do.

Fair, but you get lots of good advice from people here. Whether or not you think it's worth implementing is a different story.

For the purpose of full disclosure I recently asked someone who has known me for the last 8 years what she thinks I do wrong, this is probably the only honest lady I know and it was a long list, most related to simply not doing what everyone else does and enjoys. She qualified this by listing all the fantastic things about me BUT they aren't thing which are ever going to be able to offset the long list of unappealing things. At least I got some honesty.

Hats off to her, honesty is always the best policy in my book. We all have things about ourselves that are unappealing. I've got plenty. I even said in this thread, you're never going to find someone who's totally perfect. It's a matter of finding someone you like enough to tolerate all the things you don't like about them. So I'm not suggesting you abandon all the things that give you joy, but you have to learn to tolerate the things that don't. It's a good skill to have, speaking as someone who also dislikes a lot of things and would usually rather just stay home and work than do something out in the heat that all my friends think is fun. I know what I like and I stick to it, generally. But that's very limiting, so if I want something "more," I know I have to deal with it and do that thing I'm not as excited as everyone else about. It's just the cost of doing business.

a friend said to me "wear your hair like that girls like it" even though I don't like that style, the level of irritation went though the roof because frankly must I really walk around not liking what I look like because MAYBE someone else will judge me on a hair style?

I can understand the frustration, but (assuming she's right), which would you rather have? Personal contentment with your hair, or the appeal to women? Because it doesn't sound like you can have both. Honest question. If you aren't happy with how you have it, and you think the appeal to women and the fruits thereof might make you happier, why not try it?

Its not like I am sitting back and doing nothing I am actually trying, I went out last weekend with someone I didn't find appealing, chatted to a some people on different sites, looking again at arrangement sites but the cost benefit ratio really isn't there. Met up a few old friends I hadn't seen for a while. I try to talk to random people, met someone today, but no surprise she isn't single.

That's good, but throw out your ROI calculator for meeting women. Dating is expensive, but picking the right partner is basically the most important decision of your life. Finding her is worth the extra investment, in my opinion. Meeting her is finding a winning lottery ticket. And you don't want to miss out on that because you were counting pennies.

It'd be nice just for once to meet someone single I do like, really cannot see how I can be blamed for never meeting anyone who is single. All the models are single but unsurprisingly I am not what they want at all in any shape or form.

Perhaps because you accepted the assumption that you weren't what they wanted in any shape or form and did nothing to change this opinion of you that you think they have, which may or may not even be true. If you accept that, they're right. If you try to prove them wrong, you have a chance.

August 6, 2017

The part where I groaned was where you imply that I ever said anything to the affect of "don't be a good friend," or "don't be nice," or "attraction is binary, either you're nice and undesirable, or mean and desirable." You need to get over this very rigid view already, you're using it as a red herring. There are plenty of perfectly nice men in relationships. All I'm saying is if you want a better shot at entering one, prioritize yourself first and don't be a doormat. That doesn't mean you'll be mean. You'll still be nice, you just won't be spineless.

I'll agree with you here, but we also live in the digital age where you can easily do some digging and find things out for yourself. Also, when your experiences have such a stark contrast to media portrayals, you should question the messages. Failure to do so isn't the media's fault for giving you a message, it's that individual's fault for believing it despite experiencing hard evidence to the contrary.

Ahh, yes, you "didn't feel like it," presumably because it was too uncomfortable. So in that one instance, after you deduced they weren't interested in you, did you try and do anything to change their minds, or did you accept defeat, roll over, and die? By accepting their assumptions of you (or rather, what you assume their assumptions of you were), you basically confirmed them. If you had fought or tried to dispel them, you might have learned something, you might have surprised them, you might have gotten them to see you differently, you might have gotten them to respect you, you might have had a chance. But you didn't. People pitied you, and instead of saying "I don't need your pity" and then done or said something admirable, you just accepted their pity. That's the problem, you don't fight back.

Fair, but you get lots of good advice from people here. Whether or not you think it's worth implementing is a different story.

Hats off to her, honesty is always the best policy in my book. We all have things about ourselves that are unappealing. I've got plenty. I even said in this thread, you're never going to find someone who's totally perfect. It's a matter of finding someone you like enough to tolerate all the things you don't like about them. So I'm not suggesting you abandon all the things that give you joy, but you have to learn to tolerate the things that don't. It's a good skill to have, speaking as someone who also dislikes a lot of things and would usually rather just stay home and work than do something out in the heat that all my friends think is fun. I know what I like and I stick to it, generally. But that's very limiting, so if I want something "more," I know I have to deal with it and do that thing I'm not as excited as everyone else about. It's just the cost of doing business.

I can understand the frustration, but (assuming she's right), which would you rather have? Personal contentment with your hair, or the appeal to women? Because it doesn't sound like you can have both. Honest question. If you aren't happy with how you have it, and you think the appeal to women and the fruits thereof might make you happier, why not try it?

That's good, but throw out your ROI calculator for meeting women. Dating is expensive, but picking the right partner is basically the most important decision of your life. Finding her is worth the extra investment, in my opinion. Meeting her is finding a winning lottery ticket. And you don't want to miss out on that because you were counting pennies.

Perhaps because you accepted the assumption that you weren't what they wanted in any shape or form and did nothing to change this opinion of you that you think they have, which may or may not even be true. If you accept that, they're right. If you try to prove them wrong, you have a chance.

The overriding point here is a good one: prove people wrong. Spineless made me laugh, because that I am definitely not, I would last very long if I was, I have no problem saying what I think.

It is good to prove people wrong BUT its incredibly hard to change a persons preference. There is also a difference between well meaning and a pity project and refusing to be part of the latter is me being assertive. As mentioned I did run with it once before and the supposed help wasn't very helpful at all because you cannot put me together with a tipsy 4 glasses of wine person and hope we will get on because that just doesn't work.

I am not jealous of the success of others, I see the attributes people like, I have met enough guys who have success and I look at how they have success, the techniques used and I have to say the over riding one is charm, if something is green I say its green, they will say its a lovely shade of emerald. Being outgoing helps hugely too, you can then actually pick and choose if you look reasonable, that's never going to be me, I am far too introverted to be the life of any party.

I have tried but inevitably I say something which people either don't get or I just get flatly ignored. At which point I usually just look around and wonder what I am doing there.

Perhaps the difference between ultimate success and failure is not learning how at 33 but how at 23 when everyone else is on some sort of learning phase. An irrelevant comment but an observation.

I will always take personal contentment over the mere hypothetical possibility of impressing someone which is irrelevant because I don't go out.

August 6, 2017

Perhaps the difference between ultimate success and failure is not learning how at 33 but how at 23 when everyone else is on some sort of learning phase.

OK we get that but at 33, and not I presume an idiot, why is it impossible for you to learn anything new?

People get degrees in their eighties and nineties so why can't you learn a few tricks at 33 to make you more attractive to people in general?

Yes you can keep calling it green, but does it really hurt to say its a lovely shade of emerald.

Why are you so determined to rigidly stick to your guns, when it is patently obvious they are getting you nowhere?

If someone here was telling you to become a drug dealer or a gangster, then I could see you may have difficulty taking that advice, but no-one is asking you to do anything out of the ordinary, yet you keep wanting to be "you" when being "you" is obviously making you miserable and not enamouring you to other people.

August 6, 2017

When the rest of the world seems wrong, it's you.

August 6, 2017

One of thing things I realised is I always tend to like people I would have little to no chance with. No chance in the sense I am never what they seem to want or I tend to value them on a higher level than myself.

So back to your OP, I do think your inexperience is a factor and particularly in the tendency quoted above.

Here's the question you have to ask. Why would you want to date someone that doesn't want what you offer? A relationship involves people who like what each other offers. If someone isn't interested in you, you should just be nexting them immediately!

Remember that like attracts like, so you should be looking for a woman that values many of the same things that you do, where there is mutual attraction, and where you are looking for the same things in a relationship. You have to just keep meeting people and going on dates until you find that. It does take some time and effort though.

And if you're not interested in women that are similar to you, it stands to reason that you don't like yourself very much. Which is probably something to look into...

August 7, 2017

When the rest of the world seems wrong, it's you.

I think desire/horniness/desperation needs to overcome the anxiety/avoidance.

Until then, or some other major trauma occurs as a shake up, it's just pissing in the wind.

August 7, 2017

So back to your OP, I do think your inexperience is a factor and particularly in the tendency quoted above.

Here's the question you have to ask. Why would you want to date someone that doesn't want what you offer? A relationship involves people who like what each other offers. If someone isn't interested in you, you should just be nexting them immediately!

Remember that like attracts like, so you should be looking for a woman that values many of the same things that you do, where there is mutual attraction, and where you are looking for the same things in a relationship. You have to just keep meeting people and going on dates until you find that. It does take some time and effort though.

And if you're not interested in women that are similar to you, it stands to reason that you don't like yourself very much. Which is probably something to look into...

I don't tend to look at people in terms of offering but rather who they are and how they will or wont fit in with who I am.

Do I wish I was someone else, most of the time no. Do I regret things sure, doesn't everyone. As a person I am quite happy with who I am, probably the one thing which irritates me is I don't have that magnetic charm successful dating people tend to have, I wouldn't say I have a particularly warm personality either.

Ultimately you work with what you have and try improve it, I would say I am better at certain things now than I was. I simply just don't meet enough people who I have things in common with.

August 7, 2017

OK we get that but at 33, and not I presume an idiot, why is it impossible for you to learn anything new?
People get degrees in their eighties and nineties so why can't you learn a few tricks at 33 to make you more attractive to people in general?

Yes you can keep calling it green, but does it really hurt to say its a lovely shade of emerald.
Why are you so determined to rigidly stick to your guns, when it is patently obvious they are getting you nowhere?

If someone here was telling you to become a drug dealer or a gangster, then I could see you may have difficulty taking that advice, but no-one is asking you to do anything out of the ordinary, yet you keep wanting to be "you" when being "you" is obviously making you miserable and not enamouring you to other people.

Not sure about the idiot part, I seem to do many idiotic things when it comes to dating!

Its not a case of rigidly sticking to my guns but rather just being me, truthfully I have not really had many good examples of relationships to use as a template. Part of the problem I think is what I like, EVERYTHING I do I would rather choose the more difficult option than the easy one and that's probably why I kicked in the face so often when it comes to dating.

I went out again and looked around me, people apparently having fun, I just don't find any of those things really fun at all, which is why I don't fit in and am always the outsider so when someone says its me I take that on the chin because in all probability they are correct.

Here is the thing, I try and find people like me, I really do and surprisingly some do exist, its roundabouts and swings in terms of perfection doesn't exist but you need a certain degree of "that's ok" and "that isn't". I am not completely inflexible.

Having said that it appears most ladies are completely inflexible.

Perhaps surprisingly I do have some who dispense advice from time to time and admittedly its very similar to some in this thread but the question I ask is HOW. "Go out and meet people" HOW.

What keeps me going, setting work and project related targets and simply keeping myself busy doing that so I wouldn't say I am miserable per se. What does make me miserable is going to club or a bar. Ultimately I keep going because hope hasn't quite left the building and when I see how people with more to offer than me struggle then I feel just a little bit less irritated.

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