Being selfish

[mercy]

But so many religious compartmentalize their faith so that they separate what THEY believe is moral imperative and engage in activity or support ideas/people that are or who embrace beliefs that are in direct opposition to their 'professed beliefs.'

 

I believe that was AileD's point. The hypocrisy of it all. Saying you're one thing and doing another.

 

Believer/non-believer, we all know right from wrong. It really is that simple and not that complicated at all.

 

If you're hurting someone, stop it.

 

For AileD -

Edited June 19, 2017 by mercy

[Gr8fuln2020]

Sadly, I think some pretend to be Christians.

 

I will say many...and depending on which end of the political spectrum one places themselves, this pretense is more or less.

[Gr8fuln2020]

I believe that was AileD's point. The hypocrisy of it all. Saying you're one thing and doing another.

 

Believer/non-believer, we all know right from wrong. It really is that simple and not that complicated at all.

 

If you're hurting someone, stop it.

 

For AileD -

 

Yup. I can't get over those believers who will claim innocence simply b/c they were not the ones DIRECTLY involved in the sinful act, but supported those they knew would be.

[knabe]

Thanks for posting. This part helped me:

 

 

 

"A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always."

 

There no humbleness in repenting sin when you intend to do that sin again.

 

Repentance is more than being sorry. That is where most people stumble. Repentance literally mean a change of direction. A 180 degree turn. If you continue going in the same direction, you haven't repented.

 

I love the story of the Sunday School teacher who asked, "What does it mean to repent?"

 

One child answered, "To be sorry for your sins."

 

"How sorry?" the teacher asked.

 

"Sorry enough to cry," a second child replied.

 

"Is that all?" the teacher asked.

 

"Sorry enough to stop," the third child replied.

 

The third child was right.

 

When we sin thinking we'll just use our "get out of jail free" forgiveness card, we really don't get it at all, IMO.

[aileD]

Repentance is more than being sorry. That is where most people stumble. Repentance literally mean a change of direction. A 180 degree turn. If you continue going in the same direction, you haven't repented.

 

I love the story of the Sunday School teacher who asked, "What does it mean to repent?"

 

One child answered, "To be sorry for your sins."

 

"How sorry?" the teacher asked.

 

"Sorry enough to cry," a second child replied.

 

"Is that all?" the teacher asked.

 

"Sorry enough to stop," the third child replied.

 

The third child was right.

 

When we sin thinking we'll just use our "get out of jail free" forgiveness card, we really don't get it at all, IMO.

 

 

Love that story

[William]

Just wanted to point out that this forum covers spirituality and religious beliefs and *all* topical content offered within our guidelines is welcomed here. Hence, in the starting post, 'god' can be freely replaced with any spiritually or religiously relevant concept or entity.

 

Do we sometimes commit acts because we want to and know we'll be forgiven even though we feel at the time that the act is wrong by our personal standards of behavior?

 

That's pretty much it. Thanks!

[aileD]

Just wanted to point out that this forum covers spirituality and religious beliefs and *all* topical content offered within our guidelines is welcomed here. Hence, in the starting post, 'god' can be freely replaced with any spiritually or religiously relevant concept or entity.

 

Do we sometimes commit acts because we want to and know we'll be forgiven even though we feel at the time that the act is wrong by our personal standards of behavior?

 

That's pretty much it. Thanks!

 

 

Hmmm. But that's not what my question was. My question wasn't a moral or spiritual question, it was one that specifically relates to God.. I respect the fact that anyone can give an input but to say:

 

"There is no god. You should worry about what this 'sin' does to real people. That should be the guideline here."

 

Insults my belief in God which I clearly stated in my question, changes the question to what they think I SHOUlD believe in ("real people") and basically disrespects my original question.

 

If I wanted a debate on if God exists, what would he do.....I would have asked that.

[mercy]

Hmmm. But that's not what my question was. My question wasn't a moral or spiritual question, it was one that specifically relates to God.. I respect the fact that anyone can give an input but to say:

 

"There is no god. You should worry about what this 'sin' does to real people. That should be the guideline here."

 

Insults my belief in God which I clearly stated in my question, changes the question to what they think I SHOUlD believe in ("real people") and basically disrespects my original question.

 

If I wanted a debate on if God exists, what would he do.....I would have asked that.

 

I'm sorry, I hope my replies didn't offend you.

[aileD]

Not at all Mercy. You were kind, thoughtful and made some good points.

[William]

For the purposes of this thread the OP has specified that she is directing her question to those of the Christian faith.

 

Input and experiences from those of other faiths are welcome as long as they are on-topic to the question posed which as I understand it is "Would you knowingly choose to do something that is considered a sin because you believe that you will be forgiven for it later?"

 

Posts questioning the validity of a certain religion or the existence of God are off topic for this thread but there are several threads on those topics elsewhere in this forum. ~T

Edited June 20, 2017 by William

[knabe]

alieD, I'm not sure I would call sinning because I know I'll be forgiven selfish, but I would certainly call it self-serving and disingenuous. And sadly, whether consciously or unconsciously, we have probably all done some form of it. I mean "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" is actually a saying.

 

The saddest case of this I know of was a girl who was a college classmate. She was from a small southern town with parents who were basically social climbers. You know, small spot on the map, one country club, basically "The Help" set in the 1980's. She had a boyfriend who was "beneath her" and got pregnant. Her mother forced her to have an abortion because of "what the town would think," and told her it would be okay because God would forgive her and she could always have another baby anyway.

 

That woman made me physically ill. But then again, at least she was honest - blech.

[Timshel]

God is a forgiving god. I know this

 

But what if you do something you know you shouldn't do, but want to do it anyway because you know God will forgive you ?

 

I remember sitting on my porch listening to one of my brothers talk about his divorce. He was feeling torn and was drinking...not in a good place. He went on and on about how it wasn't right in God's eyes, yet he knew it was the right thing to do for himself and his wife.

 

I listened and said to him finally...what do you think about everything we do matters and at the same time, doesn't matter at all?

Well, he looked at me and said, yep, I understand that.

 

What we do does matter, any person with a conscience knows this.

 

Yet, in the scheme of things, the end result will be the same. No, my brother did not have the power to set the universes and all of creation or even his ex wife lopsided by his actions. Neither would any person.

 

What he was pondering in these moments and his actions were important for who he is and who he wants to be.

 

I agree that using religion as a cloak/shield to manipulate others in order to achieve sin is an old a weapon as religion itself.

 

I would not agree that a true believer would do so, or that God isn't smart enough to know the difference.

[Gr8fuln2020]

God is a forgiving god. I know this

 

But what if you do something you know you shouldn't do, but want to do it anyway because you know God will forgive you ?

 

This is a dreadful frame of mind. I do not believe that God will forgive the intentional sinner. If someone sins presuming forgiveness, it will not be given. True repentance will assure forgiveness, BUT the person who has committed these sins must make earnest recompense for them. I truly see no other way to begin to rationalize God's willingness to forgive otherwise.

 

 

I would not agree that a true believer would do so, or that God isn't smart enough to know the difference.

 

A 'true' believer would not. But we have these discussions b/c that 'true' believer is rare and most our experience involves professed believers who are both flawed and manipulative. If there is a God, of course he knows the difference, but the question is, is he righteous in his dealings with sinners, believer or not?

 

I aways say that professed believers, most perhaps, are not too concerned nor truly believe that they will have to answer for their sins. I think too many believe they have time to repent, however simple they think that act is, before its their time, so they continue dealing in this world w/o concern. I have found very few people of faith who live by the 'golden rule.' Very few.

[Mrs. John Adams]

AileD...Dont we all intentionally sin? How many of us have told a lie....or cheated on taxes....or gossiped about another person? Many of us have done those things knowing that God's grace covers us.

 

I cheated on my husband...i certainly did not do it BECAUSE I knew i would be forgiven....but as a christian I beleive I am indeed forgiven.

 

Is this what you are talking about or did i completely miss the point? (it would not be the first time...lol)

[aileD]

I don't know . I was just upset and pissed that my husband who claimed to turn over a new leaf spiritually and In our marriage, after many many many many many talks from him about how God doesn't want us to divorce and marriage is a covenant and divorce would be against God, all the while he's talking to his AP on the phone behind my back. He Knew it was wrong, and he made a conscious decision to do it anyway. Why didn't he just divorce me for craps sake? Can't pick and choose what you're going to follow. He was selfish and he made that conscious decision over and over and over. I guess it's like stealing. Maybe he's really sorry. Who knows

[LivingWaterPlease]

Thanks for posting. This part helped me:

 

 

 

"A person who willingly, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always."

 

There no humbleness in repenting sin when you intend to do that sin again.

 

aileD, I'm tuning in to this thread late but looked up the texts in the quote above:

 

Acts 16:31 " They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

John 6:37 "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

Seems to me they're talking about Jesus being the way to salvation but not saying once saved always saved... I found these other texts...

 

Jesus said, "“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 7:21)

 

Jesus said, “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:5,6

 

“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die....26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. Ezekiel 18:24-28 (I need to check and be sure I have the text right for the first part, is in Ezekiel but not sure it's 24).

 

Many texts in the Bible teach that we have salvation by accepting Christ and following Him. As we abide in Him then we continue in salvation. But, God always allows us the freedom not to choose Him. We can turn away from him anytime we decide we no longer want to abide in Him.

 

Judas is one example of someone who accepted Jesus and then chose not to stay with Him.

 

I do believe that God forgives any sin we ask forgiveness for because 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

King David committed both adultery and murder, intentional sins, and yet was forgiven. God called him "a man after my own heart" after he had committed these sins and asked for forgiveness.

 

But, he also suffered grave consequences for his sins of adultery and murder, even though he asked for forgiveness in Psalm 51:10, "Create in me a clean heart, Oh, God...." Read the whole 51st chapter of David's anguished cry of confession and repentance!

 

The consequences He suffered were the loss of respect from his subjects. And his own son, Absalom, went to war against him trying to take the kingdom from him.

 

So we sin and God forgives. But, we suffer the consequences of our sins. Seems to me God is wanting to teach us to learn to abide in Him so that we have His power in us to keep us from sinning; a journey we take in the Christian life, learning to abide (not walk away when we are tempted) in Christ.

Edited June 22, 2017 by LivingWaterPlease

[Timshel]

A 'true' believer would not. But we have these discussions b/c that 'true' believer is rare and most our experience involves professed believers who are both flawed and manipulative. If there is a God, of course he knows the difference, but the question is, is he righteous in his dealings with sinners, believer or not?

 

I aways say that professed believers, most perhaps, are not too concerned nor truly believe that they will have to answer for their sins. I think too many believe they have time to repent, however simple they think that act is, before its their time, so they continue dealing in this world w/o concern. I have found very few people of faith who live by the 'golden rule.' Very few.

 

As this is aileD's thread, won't say much but do agree.

To say that 'God is smart enough' speaks for itself, which I am sure isn't lost on aileD.

 

Aile, faith is inside or else nothing.

I think that you are/have been sorting important stuff.

Best to you, your children and family.

 

For the love of....imo, God is not a he or she. How insulting to God....lol, for the alpha/omega...first and last to be leveled to gender, phfft. : )

Edited June 22, 2017 by Timshel
simpleNfit,general/not aileD

[Justanaverageguy]

So I don't follow the christian 'god' specifically - but I can speak in that language and the bible speaks a lot of truths so I will use a quote from it to show my point. From my direct experience with sin - the repercussions are directly inline with your knowledge of whether what you did is right or wrong. I've had some run ins with the universe \ 'god' ..... and lets just say things escalate when you know what your doing is wrong and do it anyway. Not a wise thing to do. Karma for ones actions takes into account circumstances - past behavior - why you did what you did - was it a moment of weakness or carefully planned etc etc. Its not a simple black and white answer.

 

The one who does wrong without fully understanding the gravity and consequences of their actions will usually be punished less harshly. Those who fully understand and do it anyway will get the severe treatment. Sure 'god' will forgive you ..... but not without adequate repercussions for your actions first. You need to understand that - the payoff is inevitable not worth what follows.

 

To quote Luke 12:47 which I think explains this clearly:

"That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded"

 

To paraphrase .... don't test me - if you try and pull a fast one I will give you a proper smack down

Edited June 29, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[todreaminblue]

So I don't follow the christian 'god' specifically - but I can speak in that language and the bible speaks a lot of truths so I will use a quote from it to show my point. From my direct experience with sin - the repercussions are directly inline with your knowledge of whether what you did is right or wrong. I've had some run ins with the universe \ 'god' ..... and lets just say things escalate when you know what your doing is wrong and do it anyway. Not a wise thing to do. Karma for ones actions takes into account circumstances - past behavior - why you did what you did - was it a moment of weakness or carefully planned etc etc. Its not a simple black and white answer.

 

The one who does wrong without fully understanding the gravity and consequences of their actions will usually be punished less harshly. Those who fully understand and do it anyway will get the severe treatment. Sure 'god' will forgive you ..... but not without adequate repercussions for your actions first. You need to understand that - the payoff is inevitable not worth what follows.

 

To quote Luke 12:47 which I think explains this clearly:

"That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and from him who has been entrusted with much, even more will be demanded"

 

To paraphrase .... don't test me - if you try and pull a fast one I will give you a proper smack down

 

 

you know when i have a really bad time i wonder why i am copping so many knocks .....thinking i am cursed ......thinking just kill me already or let me kill myself.....i can not take all this...at once...spread it out a little.....god help me......

and i go down deep to search for hope and strength....because i try so hard to be good.....i try to be more forgiving more gentle more lenient to those who hurt me...i try to help those who would step all over me...... and i just keep copping it.....so that luke verse ..among others...confuses me a little....

 

and then i stop....and i try to center myself.go deeper..and i get a warm feeling that radiates from my chest(actually my chest)..its also where i feel emotional pain...and i know ...i am doing my best by god and by others...i am keeping convenants no matter how hard they are to keep........no matter how hellish my life gets..and it is often hellish..its not god punishing me.....at all......i cant believe that....i will not believe that..deb

Edited June 29, 2017 by todreaminblue

[major_merrick]

God is a forgiving god. I know this

 

But what if you do something you know you shouldn't do, but want to do it anyway because you know God will forgive you ?

 

Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm not the most religious person around....

 

If you are of the Christian persuasion, I remember this verse from Romans 6... "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

 

I also remember something from Romans 7... "For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."

 

I think the point of this is that while you want to do right, you also want to do wrong. It's like you have two natures. And sometimes the bad nature wins, so you have to comfort yourself with the knowledge that you are already forgiven and can try again. But if you have the will (or the help) to avoid doing the wrong thing, you ought to choose the right thing to do. But being forgiven isn't ever a good reason to do the wrong thing, just because you can.

[Justanaverageguy]

you know when i have a really bad time i wonder why i am copping so many knocks .....thinking i am cursed ......thinking just kill me already or let me kill myself.....i can not take all this...at once...spread it out a little.....god help me......

and i go down deep to search for hope and strength....because i try so hard to be good.....i try to be more forgiving more gentle more lenient to those who hurt me...i try to help those who would step all over me...... and i just keep copping it.....so that luke verse ..among others...confuses me a little....

 

and then i stop....and i try to center myself.go deeper..and i get a warm feeling that radiates from my chest(actually my chest)..its also where i feel emotional pain...and i know ...i am doing my best by god and by others...i am keeping convenants no matter how hard they are to keep........no matter how hellish my life gets..and it is often hellish..its not god punishing me.....at all......i cant believe that....i will not believe that..deb

 

So not all things in life are "punishment" we reap what we sow applies to more then just sin. Our thoughts create our reality and this is where in my humble opinion the Christian faith falls short of teaching it's followers.

 

Its very true that of you do bad to others - it will eventually come back to you ..... But our energy, thoughts and behaviours manifests everything. It's not actually enough just to be nice - you must have faith to call forth those things that are not as though they were. Belief not just in a heavenly power - but your own power to recreate your life in a positive way. To feel worthy of happiness, to feel that you are blessed and highly favored - that good things flow to you.

 

The Christian faith is good at creating a moral character but unfortunately doesn't offer many tools to cultivate this positive abundant mindset. It tends to cultivate guilt and a feeling of unworthyness which runs counter to a happy life

[knabe]

Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm not the most religious person around....

 

If you are of the Christian persuasion, I remember this verse from Romans 6... "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

 

I also remember something from Romans 7... "For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing."

 

I think the point of this is that while you want to do right, you also want to do wrong. It's like you have two natures. And sometimes the bad nature wins, so you have to comfort yourself with the knowledge that you are already forgiven and can try again. But if you have the will (or the help) to avoid doing the wrong thing, you ought to choose the right thing to do. But being forgiven isn't ever a good reason to do the wrong thing, just because you can.

 

Wow, for someone who is not very religious, you have a better grasp of this than a lot of Christians I know. You really do

[knabe]

I think the idea of if/then and sin/punishment can be taken too far.

 

I had cancer. Did God make me have cancer, did he punish me with cancer, or did he grow me and mold me through cancer?

 

I might not know the definitive answer, but I know I have some control in which answer I choose. I could have said, "God is mean and not real" and decided he made me sick and grow in that direction. Or I could have said, "I'm not sure why God allowed this, but I am going to lean on Him and grow from this in to a stronger, better, more colmpassionate person...and if I don't survive it, I'll be with Him."

 

I chose the latter. Now mind you, I wasn;t perfect. I still whined plenty to God There's a passage in the Bible where the disciples and Jesus encounter a blind man. They ask Him, "Whose sin caused this man to be blind, his or his parents?" Jesus said neither. God allowed it so that He might be glorified and they might believe.

 

I have 2 friends. Both of them have grown kids who developed a life threatening heart problem as a child. Both of them were Christians at the time. One person cried out to God for help and strength, will tell you that God helped their family through it, and give God the glory for using the doctors and surgeons to help their son, and they thank God that their son is alive today and thriving as a young professional. The other friend is an atheist because God made his son sick.

 

Perspective can be everything.

 

How does this realte? Well, just like we cannot assume that "God will forgive us" is an excuse to sin, we cannot assume that every bad thing is BECAUSE we sinned. Both ideas are very simplistic.

[todreaminblue]

So not all things in life are "punishment" we reap what we sow applies to more then just sin. Our thoughts create our reality and this is where in my humble opinion the Christian faith falls short of teaching it's followers.

 

Its very true that of you do bad to others - it will eventually come back to you ..... But our energy, thoughts and behaviours manifests everything. It's not actually enough just to be nice - you must have faith to call forth those things that are not as though they were. Belief not just in a heavenly power - but your own power to recreate your life in a positive way. To feel worthy of happiness, to feel that you are blessed and highly favored - that good things flow to you.

 

The Christian faith is good at creating a moral character but unfortunately doesn't offer many tools to cultivate this positive abundant mindset. It tends to cultivate guilt and a feeling of unworthyness which runs counter to a happy life

 

its hard to feel blessed sometimes though isnt it..especially when it feels like demons have your home number on speed dial.....ready to mess up any efforts you make to climb out of the dark

 

.i do have a positive mindset.....when it gets working.....sometimes however it fails.....i think i need god most when it does fail it is when i am blind to see the steps forward to happiness when the dark ....is longer than i have had before....when my faith is tested the most....is not when i feel blessed......

 

i am tired,overwhelmed and sick, so excuse my misery posts.........i will try to put my hope and trust i have that god wants me to make it..my family to make it.......and i will keep climbing...this too shall pass.....it always does....pass.....deb

Edited June 30, 2017 by todreaminblue

[major_merrick]

Wow, for someone who is not very religious, you have a better grasp of this than a lot of Christians I know. You really do

 

I suspect that a lot of people are "too close to the forest to see the trees."

 

I think that a lot of the time, God is more hands-off than many devout Christians would like to admit. Part of it is that He wants to see how things turn out, and part of it has to do with free will. Which is an entirely different discussion.

 

Do your best. Try to do right. But if you don't get it right.... if you are Christian then you also believe that your good works aren't how you get to heaven. Rather, your good works flow FROM the fact that you have faith in someone else getting you there. Just examine your motivations.