4 dates and still no kiss???

[Arp1388]

I don't care what you want, men want women to give it up on the first date and you couldn't care less about that could you?

 

Like I said before you're ignoring the fact that he may simply not want to kiss her yet. Kissing may not seem like a lot to you but it's not her choice to make, it's his. The only choice for her is to decide if she's willing to bail over it, the same choices a man has if his date isn't putting out soon enough.

 

But all the "he's not a man" stuff is projection and misandry. It's his body, his lips, not sharing it with a woman he barely knows is his choice. Women aren't the only ones who can take ownership of their bodies.

 

 

 

I completely get that and it's not like I want to pressure him if that is how it is. But I would have felt a whole lot better if he had at least had the courage to initiate holding my hand. I mean how hard is that? We're not talking about exchange of bodily fluid here. He had the length of an entire movie on the 3rd date to do it and didn't. I've never met anyone that shy

[Jj66]

Some reasons not to kiss a woman

 

• You aren't attracted to her
  
• She isn't receptive
  
• You are in a relationship with someone else
  
• She is in a SERIOUS relationship.
  
• It would be unseemly, e.g. at a funeral or other violation of cultural rules - but sometimes it's fun to break rules
  

 

Nowhere on this list are your fears and insecurities or how long you have known her.

 

Some men have trouble reading receptivity.

 

I am not sure why. If you pay attention to body language it's easy to see.

 

If I'm attracted to a woman and she is receptive I kiss her. This sometimes happens within the first hour of meeting someone and almost always by the time we have spent 8 hours or so together. Number of dates is irrelevant. If she isnt receptive to being kissed by then its ptobably not.going to happen. You've been friend zomed. After 8 hours of being with someone they are really attracted to most women in our culture are ready for something physical. Kissing at a bare minimum.

[Arp1388]

Some reasons not to kiss a woman

 

• You aren't attracted to her
  
• She isn't receptive
  
• You are in a relationship with someone else
  
• She is in a SERIOUS relationship.
  
• It would be unseemly, e.g. at a funeral or other violation of cultural rules - but sometimes it's fun to break rules
  

 

Nowhere on this list are your fears and insecurities or how long you have known her.

 

Some men have trouble reading receptivity.

 

I am not sure why. If you pay attention to body language it's easy to see.

 

If I'm attracted to a woman and she is receptive I kiss her. This sometimes happens within the first hour of meeting someone and almost always by the time we have spent 8 hours or so together. Number of dates is irrelevant. If she isnt receptive to being kissed by then its ptobably not.going to happen. You've been friend zomed. After 8 hours of being with someone they are really attracted to most women in our culture are ready for something physical. Kissing at a bare minimum.

 

 

Well all of our dates have been at least 3 hours long. Three have been at least four hours long. Our last one was six hours long, and I was the one who finally said I needed to get going! I think I may just have to let this one go. We've probably spent about 16 hours together at this point, and still just an awkward peck on the cheek.

[smackie9]

I don't care what you want, men want women to give it up on the first date and you couldn't care less about that could you?

 

Like I said before you're ignoring the fact that he may simply not want to kiss her yet. Kissing may not seem like a lot to you but it's not her choice to make, it's his. The only choice for her is to decide if she's willing to bail over it, the same choices a man has if his date isn't putting out soon enough.

 

But all the "he's not a man" stuff is projection and misandry. It's his body, his lips, not sharing it with a woman he barely knows is his choice. Women aren't the only ones who can take ownership of their bodies.

You act like I made up the rules here...it's life, no one said you had to like it.

[smackie9]

I completely get that and it's not like I want to pressure him if that is how it is. But I would have felt a whole lot better if he had at least had the courage to initiate holding my hand. I mean how hard is that? We're not talking about exchange of bodily fluid here. He had the length of an entire movie on the 3rd date to do it and didn't. I've never met anyone that shy

Some people call it shy....this guy has anxiety. Shy guys get over it pretty quickly, guys with anxiety have all kinds of issues when put into different situations.

 

You don't want to date someone who is not comfortable enough to make physical contact....arm around you, hand holding, hand on the hollow of your back guiding you out of the theater, squeezing your thigh, kissing, etc. Pretty innocent stuff.

[ashy555]

I'd say go on another date and initiate the kiss. If he pulls away from a simple kiss on the fifth date.. Then he may not be THAT interested and doesn't feel any chemistry.. But really really trying

[ashy555]

And yes, it's true. Woman love men with confidence. For me, no confidence is a real turn off.

 

In saying that, I wouldn't go saying this man is not a real man. Everyone is different and everyone has their own personal boundaries. Who knows what is going through this guys head. Maybe it is more of a respect thing Either way, make a move and kiss him first, then you should get your answer.

[preraph]

I'd be turned off by now. He's fearful. It's not going to get better when he does finally get around to having sex with you. It's going to be awkward in the extreme. And chances are if you act like you want it, he'll keep score on that and it will only make him more fearful because you're more experienced and he may judge you for that as well.

 

I've never seen a situation like this really work out for the best. He's at like the middle school level of dating acumen. He's not ready, and there's some reason for that, and I doubt it's good.

[Pill]

The issue is whether OP wants to wait around for that, whenever it might be. He's entitled to do things his way, and she's entitled to do things hers. Maybe those things are incompatible.

 

Which is exactly what I said, incompatibility is different than "not being a man". And even calling it incompatibility is a stretch, people can be on the same page and not desire to be physical. It's called growing together.

 

There's a big difference between not kissing by date 4 and expecting sex by date 4.

 

No its not actually. Intimacy is intimacy regardless if it's kissing, sex or holding hands. Just because you rank them based on your standards is irrelevant. A lot of people find kissing as more intimate than sex. Making assumptions about it is just as stupid as making assumptions about a woman not giving it up after a few dates. The advice should center around gaining clarification opposed to denigration.

 

 

But let's be honest, for a 26 year old adult, a reluctance or hesitation to simply kiss (not talking about sex here), which is an almost totally innocent, culturally acceptable, and non-threatening act of affection, is rather strange and I don't blame OP for questioning it, or the other posters for commenting on it as such.

Once again no one cares about what you find culturally acceptable or not. It's culturally acceptable to have sex after 4 dates but it's not culturally unacceptable to be averse to it. Same with kissing.

 

Perhaps the characterization of "not a man" was a bit crude

there are women who post who can't even muster up common sense to send a text that aren't denigrated for their social deficiencies. Yet what a man decides to do with his own lips speaks to his character. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness.

 

Misandry isn't okay just because it's "culturally acceptable"

Edited January 19, 2017 by Pill

[normal person]

No its not actually. Intimacy is intimacy regardless if it's kissing, sex or holding hands. Just because you rank them based on your standards is irrelevant. A lot of people find kissing as more intimate than sex. Making assumptions about it is just as stupid as making assumptions about a woman not giving it up after a few dates.

 

We're just going by what appear to be OP's standards here. Yes, everyone's different but there are some basic limits on what's appropriate usually defined by a variety of factors. We are at the intersection of OP, the guy, and those things. I think most people would agree it'd be similarly weird if the guy kissed her after 30 seconds, the same way we're seeing people wonder why he hasn't done it after 4 dates.

 

The advice should center around gaining clarification opposed to denigration.

 

I agree with you that the advice should center on gaining clarification with one caveat: if the time investment is worth it for her. If she doesn't deem the process, the energy involved, and/or the guy worth her time, it might just be best to move on. Let the guy do things his way, if that's what he wants. But it might have to be without OP.

 

 

Once again no one cares about what you find culturally acceptable or not. It's culturally acceptable to have sex after 4 dates but it's not culturally unacceptable to be averse to it. Same with kissing.

 

Different strokes. We're talking about OP here, and since she started a thread wondering about it, I think it's pretty clear what her desires are and what's acceptable for her. It just so happens that her expectations seem to coincide with those common cultural ones. If she didn't want to kiss him at date 20 I think the responses would similarly be "that's pretty weird, he's probably wondering why you don't want to kiss him yet, but whatever works for you." We're all free to do what we're comfortable with, but there is a rough dating paradigm which can't help but be cross referenced.

 

there are women who post who can't even muster up common sense to send a text that aren't denigrated for their social deficiencies. Yet what a man decides to do with his own lips speaks to his character. I'm just pointing out the ridiculousness.

 

I agree with you on the hypocrisy but that's a different conversation.

[Arp1388]

I'd say go on another date and initiate the kiss. If he pulls away from a simple kiss on the fifth date.. Then he may not be THAT interested and doesn't feel any chemistry.. But really really trying

 

I might try one more date. We'll see if he initiates another one when I get back in town. On the other hand that means two more weeks of me wondering about it. Ugh

[LoveFiend]

Sounds like very awkward behavior for a guy. I tend to not mind my manners to well on dates. I want at least a kiss if not more then a kiss on first date. Had women accuse me of treating them like piece of meat because wanted a lot more then just a kiss on the first date, but I have learned through the years to tone down the hormones. You invited him up to your apartment and wasn't interested in any hanky panky? Wow. Very surprising. I am the complete opposite and find his behavior extremely strange.

[viatori patuit]

Well, I have done multiple dates and not initiated anything. It wasn't that I wasn't interested. It was the opposite - I did not want to offend.

 

Dating can suck sometimes, and I always erred to the side of caution. I would rather have a few good ones get away then have to deal with yet another psychopathic woman. Until I was sure she was stable, I was always careful.

 

If it was me, I would not go out on four dates if I wasn't interested. I would also be very receptive to the girl initiating - it takes all the pressure off.

[carolann]

While you two may enjoy each other's company and find each other attractive, there just isn't enough sexual chemistry between you. Even if you give it another date and a kiss happens, a healthy, satisfying sexual relationship later on doesn't seem likely. If that isn't important to you (for some it isn't) then no big deal. If I was really into a guy, I would find this situation terribly frustrating.

[Popsicle]

He is shy that's all.

 

Shy can be both good and bad. You have to decide if you live with shy.

[kassy]

I dated a guy once, we met on a holiday, it was a 2 week adventure tour. We spent every minute together for a week, one night even watching TV on his bed and nothing... But we eventually kissed and started dating and the sex was unbelievable. He's typically quite a player, said he just didn't want to mess it up and me think it was just a holiday thing. Was incredibly frustrating but totally worth it. Not saying that's the case here, but just because he's slow to kiss doesn't equal there will be a lack of passion going forward. From what you've described of your dating situation I don't see the harm in waiting and seeing. But each to their own .

[joseb]

OP, when you say you were flirty and open , what were you doing exactly? Some guys are pretty bad at reading these things. And yes some guys are just a bit too shy.

 

I'll give you two examples of guys I know.

 

One is recently divorced, a bit older. He has been on five or six dates with this girl.

He is extremely attracted to her but just thinks she isnt that attracted so hasn't tried to kiss her. She has been to his house too. If it was me no way I wouldn't have tried

 

Another guy, very experienced. Lots of girlfriend's. But one he dated recently, on a second or third date they briefly went to his house and she asked what the view was like from his bedroom. Now to me there couldn't be a more obvious hint but he just didn't seem to think she was ready. They did end up together eventually a couple of dates later.

 

So not every guy is confident and good at reading cues.

[barcode88]

Could be your body language isn't receptive also. Keep in mind.

[Pill]

OP, when you say you were flirty and open , what were you doing exactly? Some guys are pretty bad at reading these things. And yes some guys are just a bit too shy.

 

I'll give you two examples of guys I know.

 

One is recently divorced, a bit older. He has been on five or six dates with this girl.

He is extremely attracted to her but just thinks she isnt that attracted so hasn't tried to kiss her. She has been to his house too. If it was me no way I wouldn't have tried

 

Another guy, very experienced. Lots of girlfriend's. But one he dated recently, on a second or third date they briefly went to his house and she asked what the view was like from his bedroom. Now to me there couldn't be a more obvious hint but he just didn't seem to think she was ready. They did end up together eventually a couple of dates later.

 

So not every guy is confident and good at reading cues.

 

Most of the flirting women do comes off as just being friendly, like how women think smiling at a man is some magical fire alarm type signal. Am I supposed to assume you don't smile at men you don't find attractive throughout your day?

 

There are better ways to imply relations than some cheesy 70s porn line. That bedroom comments was far from obvious and was silly and awkward.

 

Body language, enthusiasm, and vibe means a lot more than comments and wishes

Edited January 20, 2017 by Pill

[smackie9]

I on the other hand, am an aggressive woman....I don't sit on my tuffet and wait for the guy to make a move. If I really like him, I will make a move. I will kiss him on the first date for sure. I can get pretty forward......I enjoy it, and so did they...To most women tho feel being assertive is slutty...."roll eyes"

 

Too many women have missed opportunities IMO.

[preraph]

^ Yeah, but I bet you don't pick the anxious guys to do that on! You pick someone who can hold his own (no pun intended.)

[Arp1388]

OP, when you say you were flirty and open , what were you doing exactly? Some guys are pretty bad at reading these things. And yes some guys are just a bit too shy.

 

I'll give you two examples of guys I know.

 

One is recently divorced, a bit older. He has been on five or six dates with this girl.

He is extremely attracted to her but just thinks she isnt that attracted so hasn't tried to kiss her. She has been to his house too. If it was me no way I wouldn't have tried

 

Another guy, very experienced. Lots of girlfriend's. But one he dated recently, on a second or third date they briefly went to his house and she asked what the view was like from his bedroom. Now to me there couldn't be a more obvious hint but he just didn't seem to think she was ready. They did end up together eventually a couple of dates later.

 

So not every guy is confident and good at reading cues.

 

 

Well I held his hand several times (he still has yet to take the initiative and take my hand at all), I invited him upstairs and put the tv on and held his hand and put my head on his shoulder. I turn toward him and sit close and made sure our legs were touching. I mean I haven't gone so far as to use a line like that, but with someone who seems too awkward or afraid to even hold my hand...I don't know. I would think that would be skipping forward a lot and possibly scare him off. But I really have no clue. I've never been in a situation like this one. I fully planned on kissing him goodnight on the last date, but then he hugged me really quickly and gave me a weird, quick kiss near my cheek and then walked back to his car and said, "Sorry. That had to be awkward" with an awkward laugh. The only way I could have gotten my kiss in would have been to walk back to the car before he drove off and get him to roll down the windshield lol.

 

I'm kind of leaning torward just kissing him at the beginning of the date to maybe take some of the pressure off??

Edited January 21, 2017 by Arp1388

[Purepony]

He must be good looking for you to put up with this nonsense because the queens down here wouldn't

[salparadise]

Should I be worried he is not interested and let it go? Or is he just shy?? The last time I went this long without a kiss he turned out to be gay so I don't want to make that mistake again!! What would you do in this situation?

 

Nope. He's interested. He just doesn't have any game whatsoever. As someone else speculated, he may be a virgin and extremely unsure of himself. His concept is that he's being respectful by not making any moves. Probably raised in an ultra-conservative family and was taught that women are supposed to remain virtuous, and he can't bring himself to violate you by sticking his tongue in your mouth. Terrified at the thought of rejection.

 

I think you're going to have to decide between dumping him for his lack of experience and assertiveness, or taking the lead and and showing him the awesomeness of female sex drive and eroticism. I recommend the latter. Regardless of whether it works out in the long run, he'll be forever grateful for having an amazing women who unleashed the wonders of sexuality for him.

 

I had a sexually uninhibited young woman who did that for me when I was young and inexperienced, and forty years later I still sometimes wish I could go a few more rounds with her. She pulled down all the barriers over about three months one summer. You could be that woman for him –– I say go for it!

[elaine567]

 

I had a sexually uninhibited young woman who did that for me when I was young and inexperienced, and forty years later I still sometimes wish I could go a few more rounds with her. She pulled down all the barriers over about three months one summer. You could be that woman for him –– I say go for it!

 

Ok I get that you benefited greatly from that experience, but what is really in it for the OP?

 

She gets to teach some inexperienced guy for a few months, and he then goes off confident and happy, buoyed up by his "education", whilst she is left still scrabbling about looking for a "real man" who isn't gay or a "virgin" - back to stage one.