Why would you want to marry?

[eightytwenty]

Btw, when we went to MC (it was a must to get married in the church) they extremely protest pre-ups. They said that's a way of thinking you and your partner might get a divorce one day. They said you trust your partner, if you want a pre-up you shouldn't get married because you don't trust your partner.

 

 

Also that when you tie your money, financial, and everything above together you also really think about leaving.

 

 

If my fiancé came to me with a pre-up I would refuse to sign. We have nothing of value right now(we do but nothing crazy to fight over), eventually we will. To get to that point we have to work together, hard work on both sides, why would I sign something that doesn't give me anything? Even if the pre-up is fair to both sides, I would refuse.

 

 

I can understand older couples that already have things of value, retirement, whatever else, but since we are younger and we are both starting together, make the same amount, saving money TOGETHER, I won't sign off on things we don't have or ever get.

[fenix]

It sounds like marriage is irrelevant to your concerns, and that the real issue is whether to have kids, married or not.

 

I have a son and I am grateful I do. I am lucky with my marriage too but I can't avoid seeing the risk that it entitles for men to get married. It is not about having children only, of course that is a risk but getting married is also compromising all the assets you have prior marriage and the benefits you get from those assets during marriage.

 

Having kids by the way is also an issue in the US...More U.S. Women Are Going Childless - Real Time Economics - WSJ More and more women and men decide not to have children.

 

I could not live without my son and I do not have any regret, what I do have is a lot of fears about the world he will have to face in the world we are leaving behind.

[fenix]

I'm also wondering if he supports the idea of common law parents not contributing to the welfare of the child after the parents separate.

 

I support the idea of any parent contributing to the welfare of the child while they have something to say about hoe the money gets expended... If I expend money for the benefit of my company I have to report those expenses, why does a mother not need to explain (at least in general) how that money got expended?

[fenix]

And how would this make a good environment for raising children?

 

And how to afford to have two dwellings? (I live in a city where median house prices are now around the $1million mark)

 

How do divorced parents manage to do exactly that then????

[eightytwenty]

I am not religious so I do not care about promises in front of God and you don't need to walk down the aisle in front of your friends to say you will be together till the end, you can make a party without adding the legal part of it....

 

 

I was raised in the deep south. You might not care about God, but we are doing it for our family, to each other, and God.

 

 

This isn't personal against you, this is about general issues of getting married and divorced as a man, it is a fact that many women use their children as bargain for the divorce and if the decision on the divorce is his... even worse!

 

 

I wouldn't and couldn't do that. Even if we had a horrible hard divorce, my son needs his father as much as me. But since he travels a lot, I will fight to have custody. If he's gone on a business trip and it's his time but he's not at home, you better believe my son will be with me, not the other female he replaced me with. I would also not allow whoever I'm with to keep my child if I'm gone if my XH is home.

 

Since child custody in the majority of the contested cases go to the women child support will go that direction too... but the man has not saying on how that money is expended ...

 

 

You know I had a guy post on facebook that he sends money to his ex, think he said 500 dollars a month. He saw his ex buy a bunch of stuff every month, material items, clothes shoes, what not. He went OFF on facebook for everyone to see. A lot of men were on his side screaming unfair. One of her friends finally got on there and said how do you know that's YOUR money she's spending on herself? How do you know that her second job requires her to be in dress code? Why with that second job, she isn't allowed to spend something on herself??? It goes both ways. Does the extra money the Dad has, he never goes out? Never spends money on random stuff? How is it that he is allowed to do whatever with his money, after he sends money to the mother? Is it because he sends money every month, without knowing exactly where it goes?

[GunslingerRoland]

I support the idea of any parent contributing to the welfare of the child while they have something to say about hoe the money gets expended... If I expend money for the benefit of my company I have to report those expenses, why does a mother not need to explain (at least in general) how that money got expended?

 

Is there anyone in this thread, arguing that the current child support system is perfect, or is this just a straw man argument?

 

Or are you really saying that if child support was more accountable suddenly you'd be in favor of marriage again?

[fenix]

Is there anyone in this thread, arguing that the current child support system is perfect, or is this just a straw man argument?

 

Or are you really saying that if child support was more accountable suddenly you'd be in favor of marriage again?

 

I was answering a concrete question asking exactly if I would be in favour or child support or not...so I don't know what is exactly your point with this post...

 

This is indeed one of the flaws of the divorce law... but not the only one by far.

Having to pay child support for not biological children... having to pay alimony to someone who has already a decent earning.... loosing custody of your children...

the list is long...

[fenix]

I was raised in the deep south. You might not care about God, but we are doing it for our family, to each other, and God.

Again, you are doing this about yourself and this thread is about the whole generality of people in the world.

I can imagine that religious people will keep marrying as that is what their religion tell them to do...

 

 

I wouldn't and couldn't do that. Even if we had a horrible hard divorce, my son needs his father as much as me. But since he travels a lot, I will fight to have custody. If he's gone on a business trip and it's his time but he's not at home, you better believe my son will be with me, not the other female he replaced me with. I would also not allow whoever I'm with to keep my child if I'm gone if my XH is home.

 

Again... this is NOT about you personally, this is a general post, you don't need to defend yourself as I am not attacking you.

I am saying many woman do this, not that you would do it.

 

 

 

You know I had a guy post on facebook that he sends money to his ex, think he said 500 dollars a month. He saw his ex buy a bunch of stuff every month, material items, clothes shoes, what not. He went OFF on facebook for everyone to see. A lot of men were on his side screaming unfair. One of her friends finally got on there and said how do you know that's YOUR money she's spending on herself? How do you know that her second job requires her to be in dress code? Why with that second job, she isn't allowed to spend something on herself??? It goes both ways. Does the extra money the Dad has, he never goes out? Never spends money on random stuff? How is it that he is allowed to do whatever with his money, after he sends money to the mother? Is it because he sends money every month, without knowing exactly where it goes?

 

The fact is that his wife gets money from him that is unaccounted for... He doesn't have any control on how she expends the money, she can never blame him to expend the child's money in something else because he doesn't get any child support.

 

If she would provide with a list of the children expenses that get covered with the child support money she gets there will be much less issues... but while she doesn't do that... who knows what she does with that money??

[eightytwenty]

Again... this is NOT about you personally, this is a general post, you don't need to defend yourself as I am not attacking you.

I am saying many woman do this, not that you would do it.

I'm not saying you are, I'm posting as what I would do and my point of view

 

 

 

 

The fact is that his wife gets money from him that is unaccounted for... He doesn't have any control on how she expends the money, she can never blame him to expend the child's money in something else because he doesn't get any child support.

 

If she would provide with a list of the children expenses that get covered with the child support money she gets there will be much less issues... but while she doesn't do that... who knows what she does with that money??

 

 

What if some mothers do that? You know most women that receive money for child support, it doesn't even cover HALF of the expenses of the child? We are talking about the women that have jobs and a career, not women that have babies to receive CS and welfare.

[fenix]

 

What if some mothers do that? You know most women that receive money for child support, it doesn't even cover HALF of the expenses of the child? We are talking about the women that have jobs and a career, not women that have babies to receive CS and welfare.

 

If they expend all the money in the children, what would be the problem to report the way it was expended?

 

Sorry but just to say that most of the women don't get covered half of the child expenses is fallacious and uninformed.

[GunslingerRoland]

What are the logistics for this? You talk about corporate financial reporting as your example. Are they going to set up a new branch of the IRS to monitor child support reporting? Do parents have to pay a couple of grand to an accountant to do this every year?

 

Like others have said, child support for 99% of the cases out there doesn't pay for even half of the child's expenses. If you believe that your ex is wasting the child support money, and your child isn't being properly, fed, clothed, housed etc. there are already avenues to deal with this. Do you really want to force every parent getting a support cheque to detail every single expense they spend on the child? This sounds more punitive than anything.

[eightytwenty]

If they expend all the money in the children, what would be the problem to report the way it was expended?

 

Sorry but just to say that most of the women don't get cover half of the child expenses is fallacious and uninformed.

 

 

The court is the one that decides how much the child needs. And its not fallacious or uniformed.

 

 

*500 dollars a month, I can give you some info?

*What if the child needs a filling for his tooth, say 200 dollars?

*new clothes because he grew out of his old ones, 150 dollars?

*new shoes because his feet grew? 60 bucks?

*Doctor visit? 200 dollars.

*Got sick and needs meds and the mom has to take off work? She loses income? say another 200 dollars

 

 

That's already over 800, and that's not even talking about food, gas expenses on the mother for gas, putting money up into saving for him, etc. You can call that a bad month, but I have found it all comes at once.

[fenix]

What are the logistics for this? You talk about corporate financial reporting as your example. Are they going to set up a new branch of the IRS to monitor child support reporting? Do parents have to pay a couple of grand to an accountant to do this every year?

 

Like others have said, child support for 99% of the cases out there doesn't pay for even half of the child's expenses. If you believe that your ex is wasting the child support money, and your child isn't being properly, fed, clothed, housed etc. there are already avenues to deal with this. Do you really want to force every parent getting a support cheque to detail every single expense they spend on the child? This sounds more punitive than anything.

 

My best friend found his wife with another guy in a compromised way... even with that he wanted to reconcile but she decided to dump him, took half of his assets, half of his salary (she was a Stay at home mum) and an amazing amount for child support...

What was his benefit for the years of loyal marriage?

 

If you give money to a person like that you want to make sure that every single cent is expended in the children... I think it is only fair... You don't need an accountant, you just need to take the tickets of what you buy for your children...I do this every single month for my company... I don't see how that is such a burden.

[fenix]

The court is the one that decides how much the child needs. And its not fallacious or uniformed.

 

 

*500 dollars a month, I can give you some info?

*What if the child needs a filling for his tooth, say 200 dollars?

*new clothes because he grew out of his old ones, 150 dollars?

*new shoes because his feet grew? 60 bucks?

*Doctor visit? 200 dollars.

*Got sick and needs meds and the mom has to take off work? She loses income? say another 200 dollars

 

 

That's already over 800, and that's not even talking about food, gas expenses on the mother for gas, putting money up into saving for him, etc. You can call that a bad month, but I have found it all comes at once.

 

 

 

And most important, they do not get 500 Dollars child support in Holland but 975 euros per kid (1063 Dollars).

 

You can do lots of things with that money!

 

So your children need thooth filling, meds and new cloths every month? My son is 5 and has never had a caries, no need of expensive doctor visits (I live in Holland, we have health insurance), Nor you need to buy cloths every single month. Your kids seem to have many expenses mine doesn't ...

[Shining One]

Keep in mind woman can and often do make more than men. Women are graduating college at a way higher rate than men right now.

While this is true, women still tend to be more selective about earning potential than men. Men should really be more selective to ensure they don't get screwed over in the divorce process. Unfortunately, some people only learn that lesson the hard way.

 

A good friend of mine got divorced after 11 years of marriage. In the course of their marriage, she obtained her Masters degree and the debt associated with it. Despite her higher level of education, he still earned considerably more than she did. In the divorce, he ended up with more than half of the student loan debt that she incurred. He also has to pay her alimony. They had no children.

[eightytwenty]

My best friend found his wife with another guy in a compromised way... even with that he wanted to reconcile but she decided to dump him, took half of his assets, half of his salary (she was a Stay at home mum) and an amazing amount for child support...

What was his benefit for the years of loyal marriage?

 

 

Yes it sucks for him. But she was the one that stayed at home taking care of the kids? That mean anything to some "business" men, no because they think its easy being a SAHM, she didn't get to make her own money because she was at home with the children. She doesn't deserve anything? Where would his money gone to? Child care, that would of ate him as much as she did...

[GunslingerRoland]

My best friend found his wife with another guy in a compromised way... even with that he wanted to reconcile but she decided to dump him, took half of his assets, half of his salary (she was a Stay at home mum) and an amazing amount for child support...

What was his benefit for the years of loyal marriage?

 

If you give money to a person like that you want to make sure that every single cent is expended in the children... I think it is only fair... You don't need an accountant, you just need to take the tickets of what you buy for your children...I do this every single month for my company... I don't see how that is such a burden.

 

It sucks that it happened to him like that. But let's look at the flip side for a second. Are you saying that even though it's her fault. She should now have to look after the kids, with no money. Not get anything even though she's given up years of her working life to raise the kids, and is still raising the kids now?

 

As for the reporting again lets flip it around, lets says it's a woman who left her abusive husband. She's getting child support, but now she has to produce documents of every spent she spends on the child. She has to produce her rent documents, she has to produce all her food bills, restaurant bills, clothing bills. And can you imagine the nightmare for both the parent receiving the money and the court system, if the parent decides to be difficult and challenge every little thing.

 

It's not as easy as just keeping receipts. What percentage of the house expenses can you allocate to the kids? What percentage of the car? What percentage of health benefit fees. Who decides what is a valid expense and what isn't?

[eightytwenty]

And most important, they do not get 500 Dollars child support in Holland but 975 euros per kid (1063 Dollars).

 

You can do lots of things with that money!

 

So your children need thooth filling, meds and new cloths every month? My son is 5 and has never had a caries, no need of expensive doctor visits (I live in Holland, we have health insurance), Nor you need to buy cloths every single month. Your kids seem to have many expenses mine doesn't ...

 

 

You read the last part of my post? "you can call that a bad month"

 

 

I'm in the US we don't have medical, and your son might need a dentist when he gets older. Didn't say you had to buy clothes every month, but kids go into a growth spurt and it feels like the whole wardrobe needs to be replaced, and it's not cheap

[eightytwenty]

 

It's not as easy as just keeping receipts. What percentage of the house expenses can you allocate to the kids? What percentage of the car? What percentage of health benefit fees. Who decides what is a valid expense and what isn't?

 

 

And to add.. How would someone spilt the grocery bill? I mean if a mother has to go through all of that already. You have to put down how much of the apple the child ate? Have to separate the veggies and meat on a different bill because the father wants to make sure every dollar of his goes to the child? Buying 4 pork chops is cheaper than buy 1 pork chop over time, does he not consider she's saving him money with that?

[basil67]

I support the idea of any parent contributing to the welfare of the child while they have something to say about hoe the money gets expended... If I expend money for the benefit of my company I have to report those expenses, why does a mother not need to explain (at least in general) how that money got expended?

 

So basically, you are advising your son to never marry because you don't agree with child support laws?

 

Are you truly comfortable giving this advice knowing that he could miss out on a good wife and marriage such as yours?

[elaine567]

Are you truly comfortable giving this advice knowing that he could miss out on a good wife and marriage such as yours?

 

That was what I thought too, the poor son turned into a commitment-phobe by his happily married father????

[carhill]

Surely it's possible to be quite committed without being legally entangled. Been going on for quite awhile now, IME

[Woggle]

How about we agree that cheating should void any entitlement to anything other than child support? That to me seems fair. Since marriage legally speaking is a contract violating the terms should void any obligations of that contract. Women would do themselves a favor by siding with men on this issue because with more and more women becoming breadwinners this will come back to bite them. If high earning women don't want to start being taken to the cleaners then side with those who want alimony and divorce court reform.

[BC1980]

I think people want to get married because we are all looking for stability and unconditional love. We have been taught that marriage is the key to those things. We all experience instability and rejection, but we crave the opposite. A lot of people think that once marriage vows are exchanged, those problems are fixed. I also think another big reason is wanting to have kids. Most people seem to feel that marriage offers stability for having a family. We are taught that finding a partner and having a family is the key to happiness. Marriage is a big part of that.

 

To a large extent, I do think it is natural to want companionship and children. I'm struggling with that myself at this point in my life. But I'm skeptical of the marriage part of that equation. It does seem like a tremendous financial risk. I think that is the scariest part of marriage in my eyes. Being financially yoked with someone else that could ruin your credit or take half of what you have in a divorce.

 

Emotions change. Just because you want to marry someone and can't imagine yourself without the person does not mean you will feel the same way in 5, 10, 20 years. Life happens, and people's wants and needs change as a result. Can you imagine if we expected people to decide what kind of career they want, and then expected them to never change their minds for the rest of their lives? It's a depressing thought, but I think it's closer to the truth than most of us would like to admit.

[basil67]

How do divorced parents manage to do exactly that then????

 

Being a child of divorce is certainly better than being in a broken marriage. But surely living with two happily partnered parents is the ideal situation for a child.