Mateguarding - When does it end? [update: What to make of this?]

[howtoproceed]

Thanks for the advice on demanding transparency but if every time I insist, it leads to the fight we had last night, I just don't think I will.

 

The irony is that the day after the fight about my hyper-vigilance, she pulls a pair of panties out of here purse. WTF is that?

 

I googled "found panties in wife's purse" and apparently some women do that but this would be a first for her. A TAM thread on this issue also came up and the consensus there was, it's a red flag.

 

The problem is, unless she had sex with her dentist, I just don't see where she would have had time to have sex and get home when she did. Still I can't get my mind around it but I'm just not up for another fight.

 

Do any women out there carry an extra pair of panties in their purse? Is it possible that it was all innocent?

[Mrs. John Adams]

Even after 34 years I give my husband all passwords and my intinerary.

I have even sent him pictures of me in the place I have told him I would be.

 

Once you have removed trust from a relationship .. you need to be vigilant in restoring it.. even 34 years later

[ladydesigner]

@Road

 

 

 

I don't see her turning over the password to her phone. The fight yesterday all started because she is now angry that I keep demanding to see her phone. She said it has to change and she feels like a prisoner. She definitely won't be telling me names of people who knew about the affair. I still don't have an accurate timeline of how it started, when they first met - all my information is what I discovered by accident and what the OM's wife told me.

 

It was a hard night last night and her position is that I'm sick and need help. She's gaslighting me. I agreed to see someone if she came along and she said, you go first and then we can go together.

 

Anyway, this morning after an exhausting night for both of us, we were down stairs talking and she opens her purse and pulls out a pair of her panties. I was just too tired to fight about it except to ask - how did they get in there? She had no explanation and I could tell was getting irritated by it.

 

I know she was at the dentist and I'm sure after her teeth-cleaning, she paid by credit card so she must have gone into her purse for that. They couldn't have gotten in there at that time. Then she came home and went to the gym. I waited 15 minutes and went to the gym and did find her car, so she was at the gym like she said. I guess it's possible that after her workout, she inadvertently put her panties in her purse by mistake but wtf? She brought her gym bag with her.

 

It just seems like one thing after another.

 

After an A there are no passcodes allowed or you have the passcode. It is a consequence of having an A and not being a trustworthy person. If there is nothing to hide there should be no problem with seeing her phone. I would 180!

[Doorstopper]

@Road

 

I don't see her turning over the password to her phone. The fight yesterday all started because she is now angry that I keep demanding to see her phone. She said it has to change and she feels like a prisoner. She definitely won't be telling me names of people who knew about the affair. I still don't have an accurate timeline of how it started, when they first met - all my information is what I discovered by accident and what the OM's wife told me.

 

It was a hard night last night and her position is that I'm sick and need help. She's gaslighting me. I agreed to see someone if she came along and she said, you go first and then we can go together.

 

 

You are 18month out. I presume there was no counseling just an agreement that the affair was over with minimal proof and lots of vigilance on your part to see that nothings going on. What's missing is anything to help bring the trust back.

 

You are on one pedestal saying, I need to see it all and your wife is on another saying its been 18 months I'm not doing this forever. There is nothing to bring you together and that has to change.

 

Counseling can help. It does need to be both of you. Choose a marriage counselor. Go first, and them bring your wife. They will explain that the process takes two people and involves both. When I found out about my wife's EA, I said I need access to everything she said "I'll just never use my phone again" (her way of saying no!). It was the MC that got her to believe, in the first meeting, that full access is the first step to regaining trust. The words were hollow when the came from me be she believed the MC and I got my access. The MC, as a neutral party, can arbitrate these issues and then start the process of bringing you back together. My wife didn't want to get a new phone number. It took 2 month of MC, when she got so pissed about the issue, she stormed out at a counseling session. 20 min later as I'm still taking to the MC, she called with her new number. MC thought it was awesome, I didn't necessarily think that way, but I was glad it was finally done.

 

18 months after D-day, you both have probably built up more walls than you've taken down, so it will take some time.

 

If this doesn't work, either your wife doesn't give a dam or something else fish is going on. Separate individual counseling could also be called for; either for you, your wife or both of you. Again, the MC can arbitrate that with you and your wife.

 

By the sheer fact that your still together there is either some love left, or you are just being used. If no progress occurs, you'll know the answer.

 

GOOD LUCK!

Edited September 21, 2016 by Doorstopper

[Mrs. John Adams]

I feel very bad saying this... but if I were you I would see a lawyer and get things in order

 

No one can tell you when you have had enough.. only you know that.. only you know how much you are willing to put up with...

 

But if she is not doing her best to make you feel safe... this reconciliation will fail.

 

This is not about her... it is about you and it is up to her to prove to you that she is worth a second chance.

 

Her actions say she doesn't really care.

[lolablue17]

I wanted to ask "Why does she stay with you?"

I wanted to ask "Why do you stay with her?"

 

Now, when she said she wants a break, she is probably not so sure she wants to stay. And maybe this is the real reason for all of this.

 

Maybe you feel you have to watch her and be alerted all the time, because you feel deep inside that she isn't 100% into marriage, regardless her yes \ no desire to cheat.

 

If she feels half checked out, I would advice you to stop trying to save your marriage, do the 180, and start planning the rest of your life. This is toxic.

[ididnotaskforit]

I know I will get a lot of not so nice feedback for what I am about to say...

But here it goes:

 

And that my friend is why I had a revenge affair... Yup.

 

If your wife cares about you, she will stay after her own Dday.. If not ,oh well...

[Mrs. John Adams]

An ra is certainly not the answer it only causes more destruction for the relationship to overcome

 

It may teach her pain but it won't solve anything

 

You want your wife to want your marriage because she loves you and is sorry for what she has done. You want her to be grateful for a second chance.

[Grapesofwrath]

Another fWW here. Mine was an exit EA, but the basic issues remain the same. After D-Day, I was transparent. Went NC with the AP. Gave total access to my phone. Gave all my passwords. Answered every question until he had all the information he wanted. Read the books. Did everything that was asked of me. Not because I wanted to stay in the marriage, but because I felt truly awful for what I had done and was mired in remorse and regret. I felt it was the right thing to do, after having done a very wrong thing. It was uncomfortable to do it, like a prisoner under the eye of a guard, but I felt it was only fair after how much pain I had caused my ex-husband.

 

We separated about 4 months after D-day. After being transparent and remorseful, I didn't have the other feelings necessary to rebuild nor did my ex-husband. We simply did not love each other any more.

 

Your WW is not willing to do these first basic things for you, and these are the minimum things required to show remorse. You're not even getting to the part of wanting to rebuild the relationship and move forward on more solid ground. That is step-one toward any kind of progress.

 

Agree with earlier posters...get into counseling for yourself and consult an attorney to protect what needs protection.

 

FWIW, that EA is the single greatest regret of my life. I do not regret ending the marriage--it was an unhealthy situation that was destroying my life--but I regret not having the courage to be honest and direct about that.

[oldshirt]

I'd say this is impossible so long as I'm hyper-vigilant.

In fact there was a thread about this on another website and the general consensus was that men who "mate-guard" are all beta types.

 

I never thought of myself as beta until I read that.

 

who on earth said that?

 

 

Mate guarding is an alpha behavior.

 

Cuckolding and/or allowing your mate the comfort and enjoyment of experiencing other sexual partners is a beta behavior.

 

And there really is no age limit or expiration date on mate guarding. There are 3 billion members of the opposite sex out there and if you don't guard your mate, someone else will.

 

There are fights and love triangles and squabbles over other people's love interests all the time in nursing homes. It never goes away and it never ends.

 

Part of having a mate is keeping others out of their pants.

[kgcolonel]

I can only come up with two reasons for why she pulled the panties from her purse...

 

1. She was taunting you...you're in the midst of an unsettled argument and she sees herself as entitled to do whatever she has to inorder to stay "on top".

 

2. While you saw her car at the gym, do you know that she remained at the gym for a workout or that she parked her car there and got her "workout" somewhere else?

 

I dont want to stir the pot but i see no remorse or regret. I see someone who sees themselves as entitled and mean.

 

What was her initial reaction when you confronted her about the A 18 months ago?

[kgcolonel]

Were this me, I'd get an attorney and file....you don't have to follow through but filing is a way to show her, you're serious. Have you brought up the idea of a polygraph? Let her prove that

 

1. There was only one affair

2. It is indeed over.

3. While she'll allow you passwords on specific apps, that she's not using any other electronic method to "hook up".

4. That she's not seeking another affair.

[Rubix Cubed]

HTP ,

Your wife shows no remorse or willingness to attempt to repair things between you. The "space" she is asking for is so she can spend time test driving her AP and see whether she wants him or you. You won't win that one unless he lets you. He's new and fresh and you're status quo/boring . The panties in her purse was either to get a rise out of you (my bet) or exactly what you're thinking (she put them in there after a tryst). Either way it's not good for you. You need to get to an attorney and begin paperwork to file. If being served doesn't snap her out of her fog ,nothing will and you are just farther along the road to your new life. It's a win/win ,if there can be that in this situation, but it's a necessity unless you are OK with being a plan B cuckold. Best of luck and I'm extremely sorry you're here.

[Patrice]

It feels like a chronic disease and I do have really bad times, which come out of the blue.

 

When she is 55 - 60 - wow! So I'm not the only one who thinks like that. Its exactly what I was thinking. I'll feel "safe" only when she's too old to matter.

 

What if I just leave?

I was able to recover from my divorce to my first wife in just a few years. She's 43 so I have to wait like 12 years minimum? I 'm starting to think it's just not worth it.

 

 

If you are that hateful towards women, why not do both of yourselves a favor and end the marriage.

[oldshirt]

I'm a dude but I do know that a lot of women of menstrual age do carry a change of undies with them in case of an unexpected arrival of Aunt Flow.

[kgcolonel]

you may have mentioned this earlier but who is the primary bread winner in the family?....Kids?

[lolablue17]

Another fWW here. Mine was an exit EA, but the basic issues remain the same. After D-Day, I was transparent. Went NC with the AP. Gave total access to my phone. Gave all my passwords. Answered every question until he had all the information he wanted. Read the books. Did everything that was asked of me. Not because I wanted to stay in the marriage, but because I felt truly awful for what I had done and was mired in remorse and regret. I felt it was the right thing to do, after having done a very wrong thing. It was uncomfortable to do it, like a prisoner under the eye of a guard, but I felt it was only fair after how much pain I had caused my ex-husband.

 

We separated about 4 months after D-day. After being transparent and remorseful, I didn't have the other feelings necessary to rebuild nor did my ex-husband. We simply did not love each other any more.

 

Your WW is not willing to do these first basic things for you, and these are the minimum things required to show remorse. You're not even getting to the part of wanting to rebuild the relationship and move forward on more solid ground. That is step-one toward any kind of progress.

 

Agree with earlier posters...get into counseling for yourself and consult an attorney to protect what needs protection.

 

FWIW, that EA is the single greatest regret of my life. I do not regret ending the marriage--it was an unhealthy situation that was destroying my life--but I regret not having the courage to be honest and direct about that.

 

Great reply!

The fact that she isn't remorseful has a crucial effect on why do you feel you have to be alerted all the time. Maybe if she felt a real remorse, you would naturally stop suspecting her every minute.

[oldshirt]

Let's get serious here for awhile, nothing you have said indicates any kind of smoking gun here that she is fooling around.

 

However I don't see how either you or her can go on living like this for much longer.

 

You two are not reconciled and this has not been resolved and I don't see this as part of a healthy recovery.

 

The truth is very few marriages survive an affair and go on to live healthy, happy lives together.

 

Yes many couples remain legally married and under the same roof for a few years after an affair but that does not always = a happy and healthy marriage and home life.

 

As the others have said, she is gaslighting and rugsweeping you. She wants you to forget about this and carry on as if nothing has happened.

 

that is not realistic nor condusive to a successful reconciliation.

 

And she also has a complaint about your hypervigilance and paranoia and it is likely pushing her to the edge as well.

 

On one hand this has to be miserable and destructive for both of you to have you thinking she was banging the dentist in the dentist chair and stalking her to the gym.

 

But on the other hand, she is gaslighting and rugsweeping you so she can't really point fingers at you for not trusting her.

 

When you have an affair, you do forfeit the assumption of trust. You tear up your 'Trustworthy Spouse Card.'

 

The big $10,000 question you have to ask yourself here is is this all worth it? Can you live like this? Can you live always second-guessing where she is and what she is doing and wondering whether she is banging the dentist while she has the bite block and suction tubing hanging out her mouth.

 

We all have to mate-guard if we want to have a mate. But there is a limit on how much time and energy and anxiety we are willing to put into it. If it is something that is consuming you and making the rest of your life miserable, you have to ask yourself if it is worth it or not.

 

If you decide that you'd rather live your life on your own where you don't have to wonder if she is jer(1ng 0ff the dentist while he's drilling her teeth, I don't think anyone can blame you for that. In a way she made her own bed when she got involved in the A.

 

And if she simply can't live with high level of surveillance and suspicion and would be better on her own, I don't think anyone could blame her either even though it was by her own hand that created that distrust.

 

But if you two both think it's better to stay together, then you are going to have to find another way to rebuild trust and live with each other.

 

This is where MC and following the guidelines of rebuilding trust comes in.

 

I can't remember if you mentioned going to marital counseling/therapy or not, but if you have not done, you really need to. Neither of you can keep on living like this.

[Friskyone4u]

How To,

 

Are you reading what EVERYONE, including ex WW are telling you. The odds are that she is still cheating and certainly still in contact with OM. And she really could care less about you.

 

Now the translation for "take a break" is that she is going to suggest a separation so she can bang her boyfriend without you in the way at all. Then if she wants to, she will come back and tell you she is sorry and then you are Plan B. Does that scenerio sound great to you. That is why all are telling you to see an attorney.

 

You either reconcile or divorce and until she believes that you are banging your head against the wall. Your last post was particularly troublesome. It sounds like you have decided rather than fight with her you will continue to let her crap all over you.

 

You can stop a divorce anytime you want to. Right now there is absolutely no reason to do anything she does not want to because all she has to do is get pissed off and you retreat. Your timne would be better spent to stop googling what women do with their panties and to buy a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy".

 

You are now in an open marriage because she does what she wants with no concern about what you want. You are most likely sharing your wife and until you stand up to her in no uncertain terms you will be obsessing forever.

 

One thing you did not specify is the VAR. Does she know you had it in her car. If not it sure as hell needs to be back in the car.

 

Now maybe we all could be helpful more if we know if you know who this OM is, if he works with her, how it started, and if she is going out socializing without you.

 

But none of it will matter if all she has to do is throw a temper tantrum and you slink away. And if you agree to her "taking a break", you are being very foolish.

 

Hand her divorce papers and make it real for her. And you need to also be looking for a burner phone, anywhere you would not ordinarily look ( car, lingerie drawer, coat pockets, etc).

 

Either this entire group of folks who have been through this in some capacity are crazy or you are doing what is not in your best interests.

 

If you have any chance of saving your marriage ( not sure you should want to), then you must be willing to lose it and prove that to her.

[bubbaganoosh]

@Road

 

 

 

I don't see her turning over the password to her phone. The fight yesterday all started because she is now angry that I keep demanding to see her phone. She said it has to change and she feels like a prisoner. She definitely won't be telling me names of people who knew about the affair. I still don't have an accurate timeline of how it started, when they first met - all my information is what I discovered by accident and what the OM's wife told me.

 

It was a hard night last night and her position is that I'm sick and need help. She's gaslighting me. I agreed to see someone if she came along and she said, you go first and then we can go together.

 

Anyway, this morning after an exhausting night for both of us, we were down stairs talking and she opens her purse and pulls out a pair of her panties. I was just too tired to fight about it except to ask - how did they get in there? She had no explanation and I could tell was getting irritated by it.

 

Yeah she's gas lighting you and rather then her do whatever she could to repair the marriage, she's making you do it when she's the one cheating. Then when she refuses to give you the password to her phone should tell you that her heart isn't in it so it's time you pull your head out of the sand and start playing hardball with her because she's giving it to you real good.

 

If it's me, I sit her down and tell her that if she wants to play games and fight you at every turn because of her cheating, then I would tell her that as long as she feels that way then she can take it some place else and tell her to pack up and leave and when she's ready to come clean then she can call you and meet up somewhere and discuss it but until that time comes point to the door and say it in a way she knows that she pushed you as far as your going.

 

Time for you to make a stand or your in for a whole lot more. Let her know that your done with her behavior and attitude.

 

She's putting her dirty laundry in your lap to clean up and you need to hand it back to her. If not it's only going to get worse.

[drifter777]

This marriage cannot be salvaged - your WW doesn't want to be married anymore.

 

The fact that the mind-movies & flashbacks are not bothering you right now tells me that you have successfully compartmentalized much of what she did and swept it under the rug. This hyper-vigilance you speak of is like a little piece of her affair that is hanging out of that compartment and reminding you of how you really feel about things.

 

Time does NOT heal a wound. It's what you do over time that promotes healing. To heal from infidelity you need a remorseful wife who is willing to do anything to make up for what she did. It takes a BH who is willing to let hiw WW earn hiis forgiveness and re-establish trust. You don't have this so there will be no healing. You might be able to keep things compartmentalized enough to continue to live unhappily ever after with her but you will never find peace.

[Mr. Lucky]

And the resentment too - I'm still really really really ( and I mean REALLY) resentful. When does that end?

 

Based on what you've posted, it will end when you divorce...

 

Mr. Lucky

[aileD]

I am a fww and my affair was almost 34years ago.

 

I immediately became completely transparent to my husband. I wanted to rebuild trust.

 

If your wife is not willing to give you complete transparency.. passwords to all accounts.. itinerary of her complete schedule everyday.. including phone calls while you are at those destinations. Even pictures of herself at those places... than she is making a statement to you.

 

Have you both read the book how to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda Macdonald?

 

If not I recommend you both do so... and discuss it. It is free online and is very short.. but it contains step by step advice on how to achieve reconciliation.

 

Transparency is a very important step in healing... if she is not willing to be totally and completely transparent to you ... then she is withholding a very basic element of rebuilding your trust.

 

This. I'm a BS and my H and I are about a month into recovery and NC with AP.

 

He's completely transparent--and I didn't have to ask for it. He offered his phone to me to add my thumbprint, he found an app (life360) that is a GPS locator for his phone, he answers any questions I have about The A, and is sensitive to things that trigger me without getting pissed off when I freak out a little.

 

It's up to the WS to be transparent. You shouldn't have to ask, they should offer.

 

Now, had she been completely transparent and it's now 18 months later and you're still acting like this....maybe it's time to see a counselor to help you let go, and learn to trust or even decide if you're not capable of it (and that would be ok)....but in this case. It's been 18 months and she is still being shady so you can't even figure out if you CAN heal from it.

 

You both need marriage counseling.

 

There are some videos on the Affair Recovery YouTube channel that have to do with discovery, the importance of transparency and why the BS needs to know the details. Maybe you could share some of them with her to help her understand why you feel the way you feel.

Edited September 21, 2016 by aileD
Typos

[TrustedthenBusted]

Dude, the best thing I ever did was stop tracking my wife's whereabouts. I was crqzy like you for awhile, and in the beginning she resented it, and I told her that if she doesn't like it, she can leave.

 

But then I made the decision that I simply wasn't going to live my life like that. If she wants to cheat on me again, she will, and all the surveillance in the world won't stop it. So why bother? If she cheats on me again, obviously she doesn't want to be with me any more so let her. I trust that my gut will know, and I will react accordingly. And if I can't get my gut to settle, I will leave. Its that simple.

 

Do you want a wife? Or a Pet? Because only pets live on leashes. Let her go, and see what happens.

 

Once my wife realized that I stopped worrying about her, SHE started to worry. She started going out of her way to prove her whereabouts even when I didn't ask. She'd tell me lunch with the girls is fun, and make sure to send a pic. When I'd walk into the room while she was pecking away at her phone she'd make an excuse to show me the screen as if to say " hey, look at the picture of this new couch I was just looking at? "

 

It was all so obvious. I told her to stop. To stop trying to prove her innocence constantly, as it's only a reminder to me that she was once guilty. Told her I don't worry about it, because if she wants to get away with something, she will, and I know it. And showing me couches and pics of girls lunches won't change that.

 

It was a hard thing for her to hear, but it was the truth.

 

Let it go man. Today. Just stop. For your own sake.

[drifter777]

 

Let it go man. Today. Just stop. For your own sake.

 

How long did it take you to "let it go"? Was it really a simple decision for you or had she earned enough trust over time to help you decide to let it go? I don't think anyone can just "let it go" this soon after d-day unless they are determined to sweep the whole thing under the rug.