I'm new here and need people to talk to, ending marriage with wife = sad.

[Dan1977]

Dan,

 

 

This is freaking me out a little bit to be honest, I'm scareed as sh*t to trust any girl after reading some of this. And here I here I was I thought I had it all was in control and knew what I was doing/counseling others.

[Dan1977]

Dan,

 

I am assuming these friends who she has cheerleading are not married also. Again, each time you post, it becomes more clear that you MUST get to an attorney and get those papers in her hand ASAP.

 

.

 

I've done IC, and he told me the same thing. I know I should have stopped this ages ago, back in January when she left me for the rave. But am scared to officially end it as well publicly, I don't do meds,

 

I moved out in January, she has a new roommate and everything no so I've done it tough on my own, I have prepared a message to send her saying I will return the key and collect my things and asking for a divorce.

 

That is oficial as it gets, as far as her/our friends go, I will be deleting them 1 by 1, I am actually really upset at all of them, none of them could even come close to helping or understand what it is to be normal and support someone, zero. For me it is natural like breathing air to support someone, I am hurt by people, but when this all settles I will be happier. That is all.

[Dan1977]

I think what @Elaine567 said was probably one of the most confronting things, that I am supposed to be protector and not attack, as this leads to years of collected 'build up' inside her and manifests as love/hate, no sex, etc etc. I honestly can't stand reading this, as this is normal right? Everyone fights, and wouldn't you, you need to have some differences and work them out, i wouldn't want it any other way and am passionate, but I don't turn off and hold back on sex and hate on someone secretly for days and years because they said something to me that hurt me and use it against them, this seems ot be a problem regarding women from what Elaine was saying, and I don't want it. I want a woman who I can fight and make love with, be normal with, no have to second guess that I did something wrong and she will now resent me and I have to be constantly worried, and then there's no sex, and then I'm more worried, and so on and so on. You know what I mean here? Should all just be normal, love, fight, agree, disagree, make up, work together, make love, be a team otherwise what is the point in any of this or relationships in general.

[Friskyone4u]

Dan,

 

OK, STOP blaming yourself and finding things you should have or could have. She could have not cheated and tried to work things do out with you.

 

Now you have paid for IC and have just stated they told you exactly what I have told you and others have. That makes a pretty good consensus .

 

I still am at a loss of you keep referring to some of these people who know exactly what is going on as "friends". What kind of friend, man or woman, encourages a spouse to cheat and betray their partner and still acts like they are a friend. You need to ask IC about that one and eliminate these people, not one by one, but all at one time. Knowing they know exactly what your wife is doing is nothing but pain shopping.

 

And Dan, lastly, you do not ASK her anything anymore. You TELL her what you are doing, that you are coming to get your stuff and the divorce papers will be to her shortly and ask her just to sign them so you can get this over with. While she is in this stupor, she may agree to better terms for you.

 

Dan, NO NEGOTIATING HER BEHAVIOR, STOP ASKING HER TO STOP ( she will not), and get away from her. Time will heal you, not having this thrown in your face daily.

 

She wants to be single, and you cannot fix that. Your only two choices are

(1) divorce

(2) open marriage

 

Choose #1 and get on with your life

[Dan1977]

Choose #1 and get on with your life

 

It is a bit hard to take. And surely you know it is hard to let go, but am getting there. i am sad.

 

I tried to tell her what the counselor and everyone said, she doesn't get it, just keeps saying she loves me, wants to work on it and can work any problem out. but am heartbroken that she can't, not even in the simplest of way. I am a romantic and was loyal to her for so long.

 

Are you a girl btw? I can't tell from your writing but am curious.

 

I know they are not my friends, and am super angry and ready to let them all go and start over, I know they are talking to her right now, and I just have to separate myself from 'that'.

 

I am telling her btw, but it is pretty brutal and not my style, she won't understand it as it won't sound like me. No doubt these other people will use my words against me, find reason to label and hate me, even though i loved and took care of all of them. It's all pretty brutal.

[Dan1977]

Hey @elaine567 i would like to know your thoughts on this, have re-read your message a few times now and am baffled. Why would she feel trapped exactly? Is this your interpretation? I am curious, only because I was the one dropping her to the airport for work trips every couple of months supporting her independence and freedom and travel and was one of the most supportive, open boyfriends she could have had, she could go out and party or do anything and we were totally cool. Why would she feel trapped then all of a sudden? This is not my fault if she decided this somehow, I also struggle with what you say about attacking as surely this is part of normal life. You can't go through life without some disagreements or confrontation so what you propose is for a guy to always make sure he agrees and stays quiet even if he is being psychologically and physically abused at risk of her building up a storage of resentment? If this is the case we are all screwed and will never get along truly and will never have sex as males and females right? I mean I know you're right about these things generally, but how is it ever ok to completely shut off to your partner, pretend everything is ok and let them sit around waiting for you to explode every now and then - still not really saying or changing anything. And around and around we go.

 

I just want to hear your thoughts on this as I can see some of this in her but as i said am baffled, as i tried, did, went to the ends of the earth, in all ways, to help change this and actually make love and marriage here.

[Downtown]

I also struggle with what you say about attacking as surely this is part of normal life.

Elaine never said you were actually attacking your W. She put "attacking" in quote marks. I believe Elaine was referring to your statement that "I attack as am hurt by her" (post #15).

 

Dan, you indicate that you were dating your W for 4 to 5 years prior to the marriage last year. What was her behavior like during those courtship years? Specifically, did you see her exhibit any irrational jealousy (e.g., about you looking at other women or about you leaving her)? Did she exhibit the same push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you have been seeing during the marriage?

[Dan1977]

Elaine never said you were actually attacking your W. She put "attacking" in quote marks. I believe Elaine was referring to your statement that "I attack as am hurt by her" (post #15).

 

Dan, you indicate that you were dating your W for 4 to 5 years prior to the marriage last year. What was her behavior like during those courtship years? Specifically, did you see her exhibit any irrational jealousy (e.g., about you looking at other women or about you leaving her)? Did she exhibit the same push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior you have been seeing during the marriage?

 

@Downtown Yes i know Elaine was talking generally and quoting me, but I beg the question still, as it seems to be pivotal to this discussion, about love, about intimacy, about relationships between men and women working, and marriage working or ending.

 

It is also relevant to my wife as she held resentment and changed over the years to the point she completely shut down, changed, and ran away.

 

To answer your question though, her behavior wasn't like this to my knowledge, something happened, it was probably both me and her, but something changed. When we met she was sexual, happy, supportive, and so was I, we had a great time, We were best mates even still now, but all the love, resentment Elaine spoke of from her end, intimacy and other issues took over. And I couldn't sop them, no matter how nice or smart or patient or manly or unmanly i was, nothing could stop her from this path. So what then?

 

Maybe we will work it out after years apart who knows.

[Downtown]

Her behavior wasn't like this to my knowledge, something happened, it was probably both me and her, but something changed.

Dan, I ask because -- if she exhibits a strong and persistent pattern of BPD warning signs, the "something" that changed is that her two fears returned. BPDers have a great fear of abandonment and engulfment (i.e., a feeling of being suffocated or controlled during intimacy). In the vast majority of BPDers, however, those two fears usually disappear entirely during the courtship period.

 

The reason for the disappearance is that the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. In that way, her infatuation holds her two fears at bay -- because she is convinced you pose no threat to the two fears. Yet, as soon as the infatuation starts to fade -- usually after 4 to 6 months or, in some cases, after a year -- both fears return and you will start triggering them. The result is that it is common for BPDers to enjoy intensely passionate sex all the way through this courtship period -- and then for sexual activity to go off a cliff right after the wedding.

 

This is not to say, however, that I believe your W is a BPDer. Not having met her, I have no idea as to whether she exhibits strong BPD traits. I nonetheless believed that you had described enough red flags to make it worth your while to take a quick look at my list of 18 warning signs to see if most apply.

 

Significantly, if your W went five years without exhibiting irrational jealousy or a cycle of push-away/pull-back behavior -- and you seem to imply that she did -- then you are NOT describing a persistent pattern of strong BPD behaviors.

 

In that case, where the relationship was great for five years and immediately fell apart after the wedding, I can think of only two likely explanations: (a) she mistakenly thought you are filthy rich and too naive to insist on a prenup or (b) she fell while walking down from the church altar and hit her head really hard on the floor.

[LancasterAmos1966]

Dan, I ask because -- if she exhibits a strong and persistent pattern of BPD warning signs, the "something" that changed is that her two fears returned. BPDers have a great fear of abandonment and engulfment (i.e., a feeling of being suffocated or controlled during intimacy). In the vast majority of BPDers, however, those two fears usually disappear entirely during the courtship period.

 

The reason for the disappearance is that the BPDer's infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has arrived to save her from unhappiness. In that way, her infatuation holds her two fears at bay -- because she is convinced you pose no threat to the two fears. Yet, as soon as the infatuation starts to fade -- usually after 4 to 6 months or, in some cases, after a year -- both fears return and you will start triggering them. The result is that it is common for BPDers to enjoy intensely passionate sex all the way through this courtship period -- and then for sexual activity to go off a cliff right after the wedding.

 

This is not to say, however, that I believe your W is a BPDer. Not having met her, I have no idea as to whether she exhibits strong BPD traits. I nonetheless believed that you had described enough red flags to make it worth your while to take a quick look at my list of 18 warning signs to see if most apply.

 

Significantly, if your W went five years without exhibiting irrational jealousy or a cycle of push-away/pull-back behavior -- and you seem to imply that she did -- then you are NOT describing a persistent pattern of strong BPD behaviors.

 

In that case, where the relationship was great for five years and immediately fell apart after the wedding, I can think of only two likely explanations: (a) she mistakenly thought you are filthy rich and too naive to insist on a prenup or (b) she fell while walking down from the church altar and hit her head really hard on the floor.

 

 

Wow....if I would have had this info 10 years ago....wait, make that 28 years ago, it would have explained many strange, often daily, interactions between my estranged wife and I. But at least I'm armed with knowledge just in case she decides to contact me in the future.

 

This info was good for me, and hopefully Dan1977 can use it too.

[Mumbles]

LancasterAmos1966,

 

I've followed a few of your posts on another thread. So much of what you say ticks boxes with me and my experience. You sound like you're in the 'acceptance' stage of a separation or post divorce (or you're just very perceptive!) and thats were I am and have been for a few years now.

 

Your post below is a few pages old, but I wanted to bring back a few snippets of what you've said:

 

So that goes to show that you might be compatible when you get married, but people can change over the course of time.

 

This is so important for us all to understand. We -all- change over time. Its unreasonable to think this isn't so. A lot of the change is in parallel directions with your partner, but a lot isn't as well. The woman you marry is certainly not the same creature 10 or 20 years later... and neither are you!

 

 

I don't consider my time to be wasted because I enjoyed the 20 years or so that we spent together. I actually had someone share their life with me, and I will never forget that!!

 

Now that considerable time has passed, since my separation and divorce, enough time in fact for me to have remarried (!!) I can truly see the wisdom of these words.

 

I think its worth everyone having a think about once the raw emotion of it all settles down. No matter what causes the eventual departure, at some point you loved each other and shared a journey together and ultimately, this is what life is, a journey. Its not a game, to be won or lost its to be experienced.

 

The good years of my previous marriage were probably the best years of my life and I won't forget them nor the woman I shared those years with.

 

 

Again, this does not make her actions morally right, but there are many that would like to classify my wife and yours as evil, narcissistic uncaring women. I disagree.

 

* nod *

 

Absolutely agree with you here.

 

 

I think they are on their Life Journey, and they want to have fun and freedom. Marriage to people like you and me tends to restrict them. I actually think some people should not get married. They are more cut out to live free, happy-go-lucky, and never settle down.

 

This personality type actually pretty well describes my current wife (Whaa!!).

 

But you know, theres no warning bells in my head. I'm a much MUCH stronger man than I was in my younger years and having ridden the gauntlet during my first divorce and popped out the other side, still alive, still wanting to experience the joys that life has to offer, I am completely comfortable.

 

Theres a snippet from a conversation I had with a close friend of mine which I'll paraphrase now and have written up on LS a couple of times over the last 6 months or so:

 

Give gifts of those things you want to give and can give, and give them freely.

 

Sounds like mumbo jumbo sudo-speak but when I asked what she meant by that, it was explained in a way I could really understand. 'Gifts' can be anything, your time is a gift, reciting your experiences in life is a gift, a chocolate bar can be a gift, money, cars, clothes, a meal, a hug or a kiss ... all gifts that you can give or not give as pertains to your ability and desire.

 

But the real point was, 'give them freely' with no implied expectation of some sort of return. Don't expect anything back, either now or in the future. This is the key in my view.

 

I gave a lot of 'gifts' during my first marriage, but looking back, I think almost none of them were free of expectation. Even if that expectation was only that we'd stay married forever.

 

 

But marriage seems to be a goal for most people even though it would be better for a portion of them to remain single.

 

It probably seems right, this statement. But I'm not sure I agree. I'm in a philosophical mood so indulge me if you will.

 

As I said in the paragraph prior, my current wife displays a lot of the traits of a 'free spirit' and many would (and are) quick to postulate that, yep, this personality type doesn't lend itself to marriage ... or to long term marriage anyway.

 

I'd have to say, in response to the bit about "better for a portion of them to remain single" ... better for whom? Better for them? Or better for us possibly more stolid types who are married to them?

 

I'd like to postulate that its not necessarily true in either case. We bring life experience to each other that is at the far end of the normal spectrum for our respective personalities.

 

Are we likely to stay married for the rest of our lives? Who can even know? Honestly, its not a question I spend any time on. I thought my first marriage would last forever, and we were perfectly matched personality types with similar backgrounds and future dreams and prospects.

 

 

You are here trying to get help, so I'm guessing you will not get stuck. You will go through the stages, and come out feeling Ok. Many are rooting for your recovery, and for you to come out of this standing tall.

 

And lest readers think I am simply indulging myself with this post. Its purpose is aimed at both the OP and other readers going through similar life challenges.

 

The 5 stages of grief are -real-, yep, when you're at the start or the middle its hard to see, but by the time you reach acceptance you realise, yes, you went through them all.

 

At acceptance you realise that life isn't to be fought, tooth and nail, but to be experienced, let it wash over you.

[Jeff1690]

Mumbles and LancasterAmos1966, excellent points and worth printing and re-reading. Posts like these truly help.

[LancasterAmos1966]

QUOTE: Mumbles

 

You sound like you're in the 'acceptance' stage of a separation or post divorce (or you're just very perceptive!) and thats were I am and have been for a few years now.

 

 

Hi Mumbles, it was dialogues like these (comments, questions, answers, venting) that helped me recover.

 

I've been in the acceptance stage for awhile. It took a lot of work to get to that stage, as I'm sure it took you.

 

 

 

The good years of my previous marriage were probably the best years of my life and I won't forget them nor the woman I shared those years with.

 

Ah, we think alike.

 

 

 

 

Give gifts of those things you want to give and can give, and give them freely.

 

I gave a lot of 'gifts' during my first marriage, but looking back, I think almost none of them were free of expectation. Even if that expectation was only that we'd stay married forever.

 

And once again we think alike!!

 

Giving without expecting anything in return takes awhile to learn.

 

And living this out on a daily basis, especially in a troubled marriage, will require a lot of diligence.

 

 

I'd have to say, in response to the bit about "better for a portion of them to remain single" ... better for whom? Better for them? Or better for us possibly more stolid types who are married to them?

 

I'd like to postulate that its not necessarily true in either case. We bring life experience to each other that is at the far end of the normal spectrum for our respective personalities.

 

I understand the points you make.

 

I was suggesting it would have been better for my wife to not have married me, because she deceived me. And it would have been good for her because now she must deal with the guilt that I happen to know she carries with her.

 

So, of course, it's selfish on my part to want my wife to honor her Vow ---- but it would not have been too difficult for her to have some space/freedom inside a rearranged marriage. I was willing to make concessions and negotiate her new terms....she was not willing to make any new deals, because she wanted out.

 

My wife was more of a free-spirit when we married, and that was one area that attracted me to her. But she knew what the phrase "until death do us part" meant, and she knew it was wrong to demand that I move from our home to live separate lives a few years ago.

 

She changed....she did not want to work on staying together any longer....and I wasn't prepared for that.

 

I could never agree with it, but I like the idea of having marriage become a 1 year deal, or say a 5 year deal, instead of "until death do us part."

 

When the term is expired, a new "contract" can be made. Or both parties can go their separate ways if they can not work out a new contract that is acceptable to both parties. That way no one is shocked if the partner wants to walk away. Again, I can't agree with it due to my religious convictions, but I do like the concept!!

 

 

And lest readers think I am simply indulging myself with this post. Its purpose is aimed at both the OP and other readers going through similar life challenges.

 

Actually, it's dialogues like these that really helped me to recover, so thanks for taking time out of your life to respond. It's not like people are getting paid on here to respond and post comments. You are actually doing acts of love and service by posting in order to help others that are still back in the early stages of grieving for their marriage/spouse.

 

 

 

The 5 stages of grief are -real-, yep, when you're at the start or the middle its hard to see, but by the time you reach acceptance you realise, yes, you went through them all.

 

At acceptance you realise that life isn't to be fought, tooth and nail, but to be experienced, let it wash over you.

 

 

Yes, that is so true Mumbles. The stages are real. Our emotions are so strong they can take away appetites, take away our desire to live, turn the tear faucet on, etc. Knowing where we are in the process was helpful to me.

 

A few weeks into my separation, I heard a song by Bob Dylan called "Most of the Time" --- a few lines such as "Most of the time, I don't even notice she's gone" caught my ear.

 

That line, and actually most of the song became a goal of mine. I wanted to move forward in life, and not have my wife renting space in my mind for the rest of my life.

 

I read that having ANY hatred or bitterness towards her would cause her to remain in my mind......that's another reason why letting go in a loving way, being thankful for the years she shared, playing fair in any settlement, etc., is such a big deal to me.

 

And I'd say to anyone reading our dialogue: If you want to really move forward, and have your spouse no longer rent space in your mind, then you must let go lovingly!!

 

It won't be easy but it can be accomplished.

[djgenesis]

She is not on drugs or alcohol. She is actually quite clean. Still her emotional capacity is not capable, she shuts down.

 

I don't want to wait, I have done that for years already - 6 years total together - and she won't change, and neither will I.

 

I am spiritual and try asking for help and guidance. mostly I am the one drinking now as a result. As I have no where else to go.

 

Nothing wrong with drinking, but do NOT use alcohol as a crutch...it will lead to bigger and worse problems down the road...trust me.

 

I feel for you dude, I really do. I can feel the sadness in your words. You have to do what's right for you at this point. Be the bigger person and end it. Don't put yourself through any more misery. You sound miserable. I know the feeling.

 

If you ever need to talk, let me know.

[TexHusband]

Hi Dan, I'm new to this forum just like you. Hope I can help you, others have helped me!

 

Dan your pain must be horrible at times. Being rejected by your wife hurts. I know the powerful feelings that come with desiring your wife, and for her to reject you with sex is cruel. This tactic is sadly a common trait among women who have serious personality disorders such as Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissism, etc... and sometimes a mixture of all three. Here's where it gets personal for you:

 

I see some common threads in how you feel about your wife along with how I felt about mine: there is an element of co-dependency in all of us, some more than others. No matter the level of co-dependency, the good news is it's not something we can't fix!!

 

Know this: I know you love your wife as I loved mine, too. But women with these types of personality disorders prey on guys who are like us. We put them on a pedestal, we shower them with affection, we crave intimacy with them, and BOOM! comes rejection. It's a power thing for them, and because you invested so much, you're left feeling powerless. If you try to reason with them, they will bait you into an argument where, because you feel trapped and powerless, they will then label you as angry with rage. It's so hard to not take the bait!!

 

The good news is that the sooner you recognize it... Her personality type and your own co-dependency... the sooner you will gain personal power. Get yourself empowered, then do what I did (and it WILL hurt you because you loved her)... get out of that toxic relationship. See yourself living healthier, not tormented, not rejected, and loving yourself. You can do this! God bless you.

[TexHusband]

Dan take a look at this link. I found it by accident. My wife had convinced me that I was the one with problem, that I was controlled by sex. So in being honest with myself, I went looking for answers, googled "controlled by sex" and THANKFULLY this link came up! It was like someone had been reading my journal, and it's written by a female psychiatrist... Read here, get help here!

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/sex-and-control-how-men-get-screwed-by-emotionally-abusive-women/