Delayed introductions - how to handle

[JoeSmith357-1]

Stop living a lie, you are 32 and don't need to hide the fact that you are living with a guy to your mom...

[No_Go]

I was thinking about Skype (actually my BF suggested this as well), but I'm uncomfortable because of the language barrier. Or maybe I'm just making excuses but I feel like in person body language etc will help the communication (I'd of course translate for them as well).

 

I'm still thinking to Skype but in a very informal way - e.g. just showing my mom something in the scenery and my BF who is around just pops and says hi or something like this.

 

 

How about introducing him over Skype or something before actually meeting?

 

Have a few skype sessions, she can get to know him but you can be like "oh we can only chat for 15 mins I have an appt " or something so you have an out

 

Then....when you take him home, it's like they already know him and will make it easier.

[Grisho]

I was thinking about Skype (actually my BF suggested this as well), but I'm uncomfortable because of the language barrier. Or maybe I'm just making excuses but I feel like in person body language etc will help the communication (I'd of course translate for them as well).

 

I'm still thinking to Skype but in a very informal way - e.g. just showing my mom something in the scenery and my BF who is around just pops and says hi or something like this.

 

I'm often the translator between people, and it's really no great imposition, so long as you're quite lively when you're explaining things. Tone and body language convey a lot of our intentions. For eg, your bf will say lots of positive things about meeting your family, so be sure to smile and look happy as you listen to him and convey that to your family.

 

1 piece of advice I'd give to anyone in your situation. I cannot advocate strongly enough how important it is for your bf to learn a basic command of your native language, so he can greet your family. Even when you have the SKYPE call, it is important he says a few things in your family's native language.

 

I'd be looking for him to make a commitment over the next 6 months to learning a conversational level of your mother tongue. Learning languages is about showing willing to bend to other people's needs and culture, and not just lying back expecting them to bend to yours. It will be a sign of great respect if he does this to be able to communicate easily with your relatives.

[No_Go]

Yay Versace, I missed your advice!

 

start dropping info about him into your conversations with her. Not apologetically, but matter-of-fact - yes I agree this will be less painful than the 'drop the bomb' way. My main concerns are she'll start:1) snooping 2) spreading the word to nearly anyone (she's close with our extended family, I'm not...) 3) judging (I think the risk is high since he'll be the first bf to be introduced, or even mentioned, to her in my lifetime). However - she's never going to be openly judgemental, e.g. telling me to leave him. I'm more afraid of what she thinks than what she'll do.

 

Listen, if you are 32 now and from a traditional background, she has to assume you will have a bf (and later a husband) someday Ugh I probably come from the weirdest eastern European family but I has always been told by them that I'd be a career person etc, i'm not a 'relationship type'. So it is sort of unexpected development Also they may associate it with the decline in my career (I switch fields), I'm actually dreading it - if they think I gave up my path to date... The pity response - "you failed in science but you're at least going to be married, daughter"

 

For the sake of the relationship, you should prep him and help him through the event - Yep, especially that we'l be staying at least a week in my mom's apartment. I'll write you on PM what the event is, but it is a major family stuff, much more major than bf introduction, so attention aybe elsewhere, which is probably good.

 

making an effort, being polite, relatively sociable - I'm sure he'll try being all of this. When he's anxious it shows though - or at least I'm picking it up? Also jokes etc will be tough with the language barrier.

 

Anyway, you could pick that kind of person (like maybe a cousin?) in advance to tell more details and kinda get your PR out there Eh, I'd love that strategy. The story with your aunt is encouraging. However, I'm pretty much talking only to my mom and a couple of older relatives, the rest of the family I haven't spoke to from years... So I have no trustworthy person to rely on

 

I was going to say, start dropping info about him into your conversations with her. Not apologetically, but matter-of-fact. You could, of course, do the "mom, I have something to tell you" but I'm taking it that kind of approach may not go over too well? She might take it as you have something to "discuss" as if her OPINION is needed or warranted. If you just drop his name into all future conversations, it does not leave him up for discussion. If she has any concerns or objections, she will need to ask you--which then you can give her an explanation but you are still in power position.

 

Listen, if you are 32 now and from a traditional background, she has to assume you will have a bf (and later a husband) someday! If I get your real concern is that she may object to his status--is that right? That's why you don't present HIM as something up for "discussion".

 

To protect him and the family event, I think YOU should do it beforehand and let them get used to the idea before the event. For the sake of the relationship, you should prep him and help him through the event. It will be stressful, no doubt, but hopefully he can come off likable. Lots of times, family will surprise you if you are happy and the person is likable or well-behaved in an event setting (making an effort, being polite, relatively sociable), and they will acquiesce.

 

It can also help to get someone in the family on your side before and let them get the word out more about your bf in advance. My aunt did that. After my uncle died (about two years later) she had a new boyfriend. At a family event, she chose me to tell secretly (well i didn't really know i was first to know). Our family is ALL my uncle's side--she is the one who married into it. After he died, of course, she still comes to events because she is part of the family and we love her. I think she didn't want anyone to be hurt or judgmental over the time frame so she chose me out of the extended family. Probably because I would be most accepting of the information and happy if she was happy. She knows I'm not the type to tell everyone like in a gossipy way but that slowly it would get around the family circle. It worked pretty well, I would say.

 

Anyway, you could pick that kind of person (like maybe a cousin?) in advance to tell more details and kinda get your PR out there!! Like how happy you are, how good he is too you, how accomplished or whatever you want the official story to be. That way you can do a two-pronged approach. Your mom can get the basics and you can tell your story and good details in advance to some trusted family member so they can spread the news for you. Good luck!! Glad you are finally getting around to this, lol.

[No_Go]

Agreed for the language! I'd give it a try to teach him a few basic sentences. I'm afraid we need to be there in under 6 months because of circumstances independent of him... But a few meet and greet phrases will be achievable and can be also an icebreaker.

 

I'm often the translator between people, and it's really no great imposition, so long as you're quite lively when you're explaining things. Tone and body language convey a lot of our intentions. For eg, your bf will say lots of positive things about meeting your family, so be sure to smile and look happy as you listen to him and convey that to your family.

 

1 piece of advice I'd give to anyone in your situation. I cannot advocate strongly enough how important it is for your bf to learn a basic command of your native language, so he can greet your family. Even when you have the SKYPE call, it is important he says a few things in your family's native language.

 

I'd be looking for him to make a commitment over the next 6 months to learning a conversational level of your mother tongue. Learning languages is about showing willing to bend to other people's needs and culture, and not just lying back expecting them to bend to yours. It will be a sign of great respect if he does this to be able to communicate easily with your relatives.

[Grisho]

I'm afraid we need to be there in under 6 months because of circumstances independent of him...

 

Sorry No Go, I don't understand this. Can you explain what you mean? Be where? What are you afraid of?

[No_Go]

Sorry No Go, I don't understand this. Can you explain what you mean? Be where? What are you afraid of?

 

I meant we'll need to be overseas in my family's home sooner because thereis another big event coming in my family (I don't want to post it here but I pm-ed you).

[Grisho]

I meant we'll need to be overseas in my family's home sooner because thereis another big event coming in my family (I don't want to post it here but I pm-ed you).

 

Understood. However, that shouldn't be a barrier. If he studied for an hour every day, he could be conversational in a general way in 3 months.

[Grisho]

I was thinking about this, as I was out cycling earlier. I have another idea for you that I have seen work wonders:

 

Put up some adverts and seek out people in your American community who are native speakers of your native language. Arrange to meet in a group, including your man, every week. Make sure the only language used is your native language (this is very important, to make sure your man makes an effort to learn it - assimilation and daily work are the quickest ways).

 

-You'll make new friends

-Your man will learn new things about you and your family's ways and customs

-Your man will practice the native language of you and your family

-You can tell your family all about the new friends, and even introduce them, if your family ever visit

-If your man takes this seriously, it shows a huge step on his part to want to meet you and your family on equal terms (not just speaking American and using American mannerisms)

[No_Go]

Good idea to find other people from my nationality (I know only a couple). It will be nice for me as well.

 

But at least for me the assimilation approach didn't work - when I was in the NL, I couldn't learn the language from listening no matter how hard I tried. And I was there six years... Plus my language is very different from English unfortunately, so it won't work by just listening I think.

 

But it will be great for him to get an idea for the mannerisms. Teaching a mid-westerner that other mannerisms exist... has been challenging so far He is always so puzzled that things operate differently in other parts of the world, and this will be actually his first trip abroad... It will be a challenge.

 

I was thinking about this, as I was out cycling earlier. I have another idea for you that I have seen work wonders:

 

Put up some adverts and seek out people in your American community who are native speakers of your native language. Arrange to meet in a group, including your man, every week. Make sure the only language used is your native language (this is very important, to make sure your man makes an effort to learn it - assimilation and daily work are the quickest ways).

 

-You'll make new friends

-Your man will learn new things about you and your family's ways and customs

-Your man will practice the native language of you and your family

-You can tell your family all about the new friends, and even introduce them, if your family ever visit

-If your man takes this seriously, it shows a huge step on his part to want to meet you and your family on equal terms (not just speaking American and using American mannerisms)

[Grisho]

Good idea to find other people from my nationality (I know only a couple). It will be nice for me as well.

 

But at least for me the assimilation approach didn't work - when I was in the NL, I couldn't learn the language from listening no matter how hard I tried. And I was there six years... Plus my language is very different from English unfortunately, so it won't work by just listening I think.

 

But it will be great for him to get an idea for the mannerisms. Teaching a mid-westerner that other mannerisms exist... has been challenging so far He is always so puzzled that things operate differently in other parts of the world, and this will be actually his first trip abroad... It will be a challenge.

 

Actually, if you read my post, I didn't suggest just assimiliation - I suggested assimiliation and hard work every day (that means every day without excuse).

[No_Go]

While I like the idea of him learning a bit of the language and culture of my home country, daily practice IMO is excessive. We're talking here for a few sentences as a cute icebreaker, not to become a fluent speaker

 

Of course if he wants the latter I will help and encourage it, but IME:

1) without living in the country and practicing daily, knowledge of language is not sustainable (I personally lost a couple of languages over the years because of lack of practice)

2) even in the best case scenario (marriage) we'd hardly visit family more than once every year or two (my language btw which is spoken only locally, in one country)

 

Actually, if you read my post, I didn't suggest just assimiliation - I suggested assimiliation and hard work every day (that means every day without excuse).

Edited August 17, 2016 by No_Go

[No_Go]

Since the fiasco in my last relationship, I have some questions regarding family&relationships that are on my mind:

 

1) How important is meeting the families in a long term relationship?

I have never introduced anyone to family and don't see it as an option before engagement (geographic separation, internal issues, general lack of closeness) but my last bf and bf-s before him took it as a huge deal - i.e. if I'm not introducing them to family = i'm not serious

 

2) Would you move on with engagement without meeting the gf's family first? Is that culturally unacceptable in the US?

 

3) Parents: would you be concerned / unhappy if your adult children keep you away from their personal life (I'm excluding major events like marriage, pregnancy etc, just regular relationships of say year or longer)?

 

P.S. I've discussed this in the context of my last relationship in other threads, I just want to get here the general opinion (i.e. not to reflect on the 'health' of my last relationship)

[Gaeta]

You will have a lot of different answers as not everyone has the same type of relationship with their family. What is good for me may not be good for you.

 

 

1) How important is meeting the families in a long term relationship?

I have never introduced anyone to family and don't see it as an option before engagement (geographic separation, internal issues, general lack of closeness) but my last bf and bf-s before him took it as a huge deal - i.e. if I'm not introducing them to family = i'm not serious

 

In my case family is extremely important. I come from a close knitted family, my brothers all live within 10km of me, we visit and talk on regular basis, I assist to all of my nieces and nephews recitals, concerts, religious celebrations, name it. We spend all of the holidays of the year together and we even occasionally take summer vacation together. When I mean we're close, it's that close.

 

When you are close to family the way I am it's impossible to keep a BF at a distance. My family want to know the man I am dating and they want to make him a part of our family.

 

My bf isn't close to his family the way I am with mine so I understand his dynamic is different but I still wish to meet them, and it's still an important milestone for me to meet his family. It may not have meaning to him, but it has to me so he will walk the extra mile for me.

 

2) Would you move on with engagement without meeting the gf's family first? Is that culturally unacceptable in the US?

I am Canadian and I'd say it's culturally unacceptable here. My bf is from France and I have not met anyone so far. If we make plans to get married he will have to take me there to meet his family. I am not marrying anyone I have not met his parents, siblings and children. I would see it as crazy and I'd have me entire family on my back reminding me I am crazy.

 

3) Parents: would you be concerned / unhappy if your adult children keep you away from their personal life (I'm excluding major events like marriage, pregnancy etc, just regular relationships of say year or longer)?

Well, that goes hand in hand with the type of relationship my parents had with me. If I grew up in a very close knitted family, rest assured I have a very close knitted relationship with my adult daughter. It's the only way we know how to do things. If my daughter was not closed to me, I would consider I have failed as a parent. Yes I would be extremely sad if my daughter did not share with me who's she dating and who's making her happy. My daughter and I speak daily. We can't keep anything like that from each other.

[No_Go]

Yeah I can see that it will vary in terms of family closeness, distance etc. However, even that I explicitly told everyone I dated I'm not close to family - it will still be red flag for them. I though it is US (maybe North American - Canada as well) thing... Although my first BF was Latin American and it was the same story.

 

Now, I find it even more concerning from the parents side - the 'failed parent' thing. I'd hate my mother to feel this way but... I just couldn't force myself. Ironically we speak a lot on the phone but I have diverged to work topics etc.

 

Another issue is the lack of reciprocity when family dynamics differ - like in the case with your BF, or in the case with my last BF where I knew all his family at month 2 but was just bracing myself for introductions to my people at month 18... I think that strained the relationship a lot after the one year mark...I sometimes wonder why people put 'upper limit' for things like family intros, is it insecurities or what...

 

You will have a lot of different answers as not everyone has the same type of relationship with their family. What is good for me may not be good for you.

 

In my case family is extremely important. I come from a close knitted family, my brothers all live within 10km of me, we visit and talk on regular basis, I assist to all of my nieces and nephews recitals, concerts, religious celebrations, name it. We spend all of the holidays of the year together and we even occasionally take summer vacation together. When I mean we're close, it's that close.

 

When you are close to family the way I am it's impossible to keep a BF at a distance. My family want to know the man I am dating and they want to make him a part of our family.

 

My bf isn't close to his family the way I am with mine so I understand his dynamic is different but I still wish to meet them, and it's still an important milestone for me to meet his family. It may not have meaning to him, but it has to me so he will walk the extra mile for me.

 

I am Canadian and I'd say it's culturally unacceptable here. My bf is from France and I have not met anyone so far. If we make plans to get married he will have to take me there to meet his family. I am not marrying anyone I have not met his parents, siblings and children. I would see it as crazy and I'd have me entire family on my back reminding me I am crazy.

 

Well, that goes hand in hand with the type of relationship my parents had with me. If I grew up in a very close knitted family, rest assured I have a very close knitted relationship with my adult daughter. It's the only way we know how to do things. If my daughter was not closed to me, I would consider I have failed as a parent. Yes I would be extremely sad if my daughter did not share with me who's she dating and who's making her happy. My daughter and I speak daily. We can't keep anything like that from each other.

[Gaeta]

I sometimes wonder why people put 'upper limit' for things like family intros, is it insecurities or what...

 

I think it's just a matter of family values.

 

I am actually very curious to meet my bf's family. It will teach me a lot about him just by witnessing the dynamic between them.

 

I know he is not close to his mother. He loves her but they can't have a functional relationship so they love each other from afar. He warned me we will meet her but it won't be like meeting my parent. We won't stay at her house, we'll take a hotel and visit her.

 

So how much effort would it take for you to introduce your bf to someone at 6 months dating? Is it a huge deal for you?

[No_Go]

So how much effort would it take for you to introduce your bf to someone at 6 months dating? Is it a huge deal for you?

 

Well, excluding the geographical and language barriers... it is just something I haven't done ever. I wonder will they like him? Will he like them? Is it going to be awkward? How my relationship with family will change after introducing a SO (they know me as a lonely wolf... I think they like it that way)... How stupid I'll look if I show affection? Etc etc.

 

It is actually a really big deal for me. My last BF actually said he's waiting to meet them so I know them we can get engaged.. So when I didn't take action to meet them, he decided I'm not invested or sth?? I think for us this was the beginning of the end

[MrDuck]

How my relationship with family will change after introducing a SO (they know me as a lonely wolf... I think they like it that way)... How stupid I'll look if I show affection? Etc etc.

 

I think my gf felt like this when I met her family! She is really close to her family, she loves them a massive amount but she's not an outwardly affectionate gal. I think they were, and have been, somewhat surprised by our relationship, I guess its a side of her they never knew ..........but I like to think happily surprised! ...At the end of the day most people want to see their kid, or sister, or grandkid happy.

 

I pretty certain I'm not what they expected, at all. There was a time where that was a bit weird, I wasn't sure they really understood why she was with me for a while.

We went for a meal with some of her family for her nans birthday, fairly recently, it's quite a posh place, posher than I maybe realised, I wore like this karki shirt that's really like cause its got a super cool gold/purple/black print of little elephants on the collar and in like a band round the bottom, and I wore it with a black leather bomber jacket and a black bandana.... I think I looked smart, but. Her granddad got to giving me some fashion advice haha, like "I'm mean that's a nice shirt son, it'd be perfectly fine if it didn't have all those little animals all over it, but maybe what you want to get is just white, you can't go wrong with plain white.." He's like 85, so I'm finding this pretty funny and he looks at one of the tattoos on my hand and he asks me what that is (on my right hand I have a tiny tattoo on each of my fingers, a giraffe, a lion, a elephant, and a rhino), I show him and he was like "yes, she this is exactly what you don't need, giraffes and that" and her nan interrupted him and was like "For goodness sake, leave him alone, It couldn't matter less if he came dressed as a flipping pink giraffe when he can make our [my gf] smile like that!"

 

I think they're definitely not used to seeing my gf loved up, but they're sure happy to see it!

There's no way anyone thinks she's any less tough, or capable or independent, because she dances with me at parties, holds my hand, and cuddles up to me on the sofa, they just think she's happy! And happiness is infectious!! (That's why I don't mind when her brothers call me the pink giraffe)

[MrDuck]

To answer your question:

 

If they are a part of her life, I want to meet them. In order for me to be a part of her life I think its important to meet them.

 

If they are not part of her life at all then I have no reason to meet them

 

(My gf sees my brothers all the time, because I live with them, and obviously my son, and I've taken her to south Africa to meet my second "family". These are the people that matter to me. I have no intention of ever introducing her to my father.)

 

As a dad, yeah I want to be part of my sons life. We're a few years of but I want to meet his gf's when he has them, I want to have a relationship where HE wants me to meet them, not where he feels its something he has to do out of duty.

[Gaeta]

Well, excluding the geographical and language barriers... it is just something I haven't done ever. I wonder will they like him? Will he like them? Is it going to be awkward? How my relationship with family will change after introducing a SO (they know me as a lonely wolf... I think they like it that way)... How stupid I'll look if I show affection? Etc etc.

 

It is actually a really big deal for me. My last BF actually said he's waiting to meet them so I know them we can get engaged.. So when I didn't take action to meet them, he decided I'm not invested or sth?? I think for us this was the beginning of the end

 

Ok so you are just hesitant because you have never broken that type of ice. You need to get yourself together and get over that. It's part of dating, it's part of life, it's part of adulthood.

 

If you like your boyfriend your family will like him. All they want is your happiness. Yes even lone-wolves find their mate eventually and bring them over.

 

It won't change the dynamic between you and your family. If it's awkward than who cares? It's normal at first to be shy, it's something new but after a first few minutes it's all ok.

 

In the past I have introduced boyfriends that didn't speak a word of French and my parents only speaks French. He smiles and was nice, I helped with interpretation.

 

As for affection who said you need to show physical affection in public? You don't need to be all over each other. Tell the boyfriend you want to do this low profile so no touchy-feely-kissy stuff in front of your parents for the first time.

 

Those are fears you need to work through. I can't imagine you'd let a good man get away just because you are too shy to introduce your family.

[No_Go]

Ha I think they are in the merky zone where they are part of my life but not quite. Actually there are just mom, sister and 2 uncles + aunt that i have

- aunt+uncle 1: talk 3-4 times/year, see them once every couple of years

- uncle 2: talk /see once every few years

- sister: talk 1-2 times an year, see seldomly

- mom: here is the deal: we speak a lot, but I've never introduced her to my intimate relationships. We talk about life, work etc, just not about dates I also see her once every couple of years.

 

So I don't know where I stand in terms of 'closeness' to family and need of introductions. It is not like we bump into each other daily.

 

 

To answer your question:

 

If they are a part of her life, I want to meet them. In order for me to be a part of her life I think its important to meet them.

 

If they are not part of her life at all then I have no reason to meet them

 

(My gf sees my brothers all the time, because I live with them, and obviously my son, and I've taken her to south Africa to meet my second "family". These are the people that matter to me. I have no intention of ever introducing her to my father.)

 

As a dad, yeah I want to be part of my sons life. We're a few years of but I want to meet his gf's when he has them, I want to have a relationship where HE wants me to meet them, not where he feels its something he has to do out of duty.

[No_Go]

Eh I'm not even talking physical affection (i'd never go touchy in front of family), more like the thing of 'he is making me happy/smiling etc'. I haven't introduced myself to the idea to show emotional affection without looking weird.

 

I had a Latin boyfriend and stayed 2 weeks with his family in South America. They didn't speak a word of English but we got along just great. I don't miss the guy but I miss his family up to date and it was a few years ago So you're right... The language barrier should not be a big issue.

 

I can't imagine you'd let a good man get away just because you are too shy to introduce your family. Eh I'm not sure if my last RL was right for me but the lasck of introductions among other things lead to its dead-end so yeah... The questions is how to move forward. It is also going to be weird to fly 12 h with someone overseas and break up with him soon after.

 

 

Ok so you are just hesitant because you have never broken that type of ice. You need to get yourself together and get over that. It's part of dating, it's part of life, it's part of adulthood.

 

If you like your boyfriend your family will like him. All they want is your happiness. Yes even lone-wolves find their mate eventually and bring them over.

 

It won't change the dynamic between you and your family. If it's awkward than who cares? It's normal at first to be shy, it's something new but after a first few minutes it's all ok.

 

In the past I have introduced boyfriends that didn't speak a word of French and my parents only speaks French. He smiles and was nice, I helped with interpretation.

 

As for affection who said you need to show physical affection in public? You don't need to be all over each other. Tell the boyfriend you want to do this low profile so no touchy-feely-kissy stuff in front of your parents for the first time.

 

Those are fears you need to work through. I can't imagine you'd let a good man get away just because you are too shy to introduce your family.

[central]

Well, like most things, it depends. For us, it wasn't important, but we did meet each others parents and immediate family. Since none of them live nearby, we'll never live with or near them or vice versa, and there are no business or financial links, their influence on our relationship is essentially nil. On the other hand, we all like each other and it has been somewhat informative to learn how family influenced who we each became later in life. We see them every few years, and stay in touch by phone - but we're not close.

[MrDuck]

Ha I think they are in the merky zone where they are part of my life but not quite. Actually there are just mom, sister and 2 uncles + aunt that i have

- aunt+uncle 1: talk 3-4 times/year, see them once every couple of years

- uncle 2: talk /see once every few years

- sister: talk 1-2 times an year, see seldomly

- mom: here is the deal: we speak a lot, but I've never introduced her to my intimate relationships. We talk about life, work etc, just not about dates I also see her once every couple of years.

 

So I don't know where I stand in terms of 'closeness' to family and need of introductions. It is not like we bump into each other daily.

 

If it were me? I'd still want you to see your family, your mum particularly, or at least simply have some contact with them, even if it was a skype call or something! Just to feel like I was totally part of your world/life.

 

But that's me. Different guys will have wildly different feelings.

[Herbalist]

I would try to keep a romantic interest as far away from my family as possible because most of my family is a toxic cesspool psychologically and emotionally. The only person I might introduce them to is my brother who is the only relative I have who is a stable and respectful person. So that would be a bit of a milestone is "seriousness" for me if I introduced them to my brother but I would never want them around the rest of my family. My mother specially is very scheming and manipulative and has a heavy reputation for trying to sabotage people's relationships because she is so possessive and bitter. Like even when my brother was engaged to his now-wife my mother was constantly trying to spoil things between them and talking crap about his fiancee behind her back all the time and so on.

 

People who think it is a huge deal to meet your family are usually people who grew up with at least relatively healthy and loving families and they have been sheltered from the reality that not all families are healthy. To say the least.

 

If I was close enough with someone then I would explain the situation with my family so that they understood, and I would also be curious to know about their relations with their family. But if someone was not close with their family or had hesitations about us meeting them together I would certainly be open to an explanation since I know from my own experience that sometimes people come from some Jerry Springer backgrounds through no fault of their own.