False reconciliation

[merrmeade]

That is actually not true.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201103/do-narcissists-know-they-are-narcissists

TOTALLY. My husband hates Donald Trump and gets all into calling him a narcissist like everyone else, but really knows very little about what it is. Maybe I don't know that much either, but I've read enough to know that he himself is a candidate for the martyr-type narcissist profile, who needs constant affirmation and gets it by making sacrifice helping people (such as damsels in distress). This covers it - from your article:

"Narcissists believe that they are exceptional people and may behave in arrogant ways because they are attempting to bridge the gap between their self-perceptions and their meta-perceptions." Yep. Perfect.

 

That said, not all narcissists are necessarily philanderers, but it certainly isn't a surprise when they are. It's just when narcissists philander, they do it in a way and from a need that's based in the narcissism. They are more vulnerable to infidelity because of the constant need for affirmation/admiration. My husband's one big repeated explanation of his "problem" he summarizes in one word: Flattery. He feels he was vulnerable to the flattery of women thinking he's great, brilliant, deep, whatever (my adjectives). The looks we don't even go into it's so obvious. But he IS very aware of his susceptibility to this kind of appreciation AND he hates himself for it. Call it conscience; call it shame (quite different) from the image getting tarnished - there's still a deep awareness that it's socially unacceptable and will make them look really bad.

[merrmeade]

Goodness, even when admitting that you're a narcissist you cannot help being self-congratulatory about it.

Hilarious.

 

But possible it's easier to admit with strangers.

[elaine567]

This is just about the best test I've found so far:

Step 1:

Take a moment to think about yourself.

Step 2:

If you made it to Step 2, you are not a narcissist.

 

"It's well known that narcissists rarely change, mostly because they don't want to. They love their lifestyle. "

[heartwhole]

If you google "how to develop empathy" you should find plenty to read.

 

I view concern for others and making moral choices to be ultimately in my self-interest. Those who treat others poorly and who lack integrity bear the consequences sooner or later. I've seen it time and again in my life -- some selfish person comes and jerks us around, and inevitably their life falls apart in spectacular fashion because natural consequences are part of the universe's order. So if you cannot be a good person for your BW or the OW, can you at least be a good person for yourself? When you look down the road you are traveling, does it lead anywhere good?

 

My WH has been diagnosed with "low empathy" and being "self-absorbed." The MC stopped short of labeling him a narcissist, but I'm sure he's somewhere on the spectrum with those traits. He has been working very hard to think about others first. It will never be second nature, but he's made a lot of progress, and he has other good qualities that balance out where he's lacking. Empathy is something you can develop just like physical fitness. You can start by imagining how others feel and anticipating what will cause them pain, then expressing concern for their feelings and stopping the actions that cause them pain.

 

You can continue cake-eating, and odds are you will. But by doing so, you ensure that the only people who will want to be close to you are also self-absorbed people with unhealthy coping mechanisms. You will lose the grounding and nurturing presence of healthy people in your life. You will watch your relationships with your children and community suffer. Once you start making healthy choices for yourself, you will find that making healthy choices for those close to you will follow.

[Mr. Lucky]

I am still cake eating. I am totally in self-destruct mode. I guess I am a narcissist. And I guess I'm also self-aware enough to realize that. Can one change this quality in themselves? I have been to IC a handful of times.

 

I think my behaviour is enabled by the fact that the OW allows me back whenever I want and that my wife is too weak to leave me. I totally am disrespecting her, the OW, and myself too. And in a way, I still don't know what I want either (not that I deserve anything at this point).

 

I also recongize this behaviour is destroying everybody and that something has to give sooner or later. I am incredibly selfish and enjoy the cake. I'm also a coward and enjoy the status quo. How do I fix myself when my actions suggest I don't want to? It's like a drug. I've never been addicted to anything before. What will it take to open my eyes? Losing everything?

 

One challenge in writing about infidelity comes from the terms we use, the acronyms and funny labels like "cake eater". None of it accurately sums up the potential pain and destruction.

 

Rather than hide behind words like "narcissist" or "enabler", think about where you're really headed in stark terms.

 

Wife won't speak to you.

 

Kids can't spend much time with you.

 

Living by yourself, alone on holidays.

 

Financially strapped or worse.

 

This is your life we're talking about, the one and only you're given. This is what you're going to do with it?

 

Mr. Lucky

[calmb4thestorm]

Well I'm still in the thick of it, not that anyone necessarily cares.

 

Whether I'm a cake eater, a narcissist, or any number of other labels or personality disorders, my question is this: if a WW spouse continually returns to their AP even after D-Day, then haven't they already made a choice? Or is it just opportunistic? And if my AP still seeks me, is she just as damaged? Is there a possibility of a normal relationship developing if we committed to each other and I leave my spouse? Or have I completely lost my way in life?

 

Also, can you have love without respect? Or are they mutually inclusive? Can I really say that I still love my spouse when I continually disrespect her by seeing OW still?

 

The reason I ask these questions is that I still seek resolution in my life, whatever that ends up looking like. I don't want to still be on this path a year from now.

[Mr. Lucky]

Well I'm still in the thick of it, not that anyone necessarily cares.

 

Whether I'm a cake eater, a narcissist, or any number of other labels or personality disorders, my question is this: if a WW spouse continually returns to their AP even after D-Day, then haven't they already made a choice? Or is it just opportunistic? And if my AP still seeks me, is she just as damaged? Is there a possibility of a normal relationship developing if we committed to each other and I leave my spouse? Or have I completely lost my way in life?

 

Setting aside all the other (considerable!) aspects involved. I can't help but wonder this - if you really, truly loved your AP, would you put her through this?

 

Mr. Lucky

[MidnightBlue1980]

Well I'm still in the thick of it, not that anyone necessarily cares.

 

Whether I'm a cake eater, a narcissist, or any number of other labels or personality disorders, my question is this: if a WW spouse continually returns to their AP even after D-Day, then haven't they already made a choice? Or is it just opportunistic? And if my AP still seeks me, is she just as damaged? Is there a possibility of a normal relationship developing if we committed to each other and I leave my spouse? Or have I completely lost my way in life?

 

Also, can you have love without respect? Or are they mutually inclusive? Can I really say that I still love my spouse when I continually disrespect her by seeing OW still?

 

The reason I ask these questions is that I still seek resolution in my life, whatever that ends up looking like. I don't want to still be on this path a year from now.

 

But you didn't make a choice, you are seeing your OW and pretending to commit to your wife. You are waiting for one of them to make the choice for you. The problem is that you cannot really know what you really want while being with two women. It's cruel to do to both of them.

[S2B]

Have you ever attempted to stoke two separate fires? What you're doing is the same thing.

 

They may both continue burning - but without all your attention and effort each will be weak and insignificant... On the verge of being snuffed out.

 

Paying less attention to one relationship makes it a weak and worthless relationship.

 

The way YOU participate affects others.

 

Why do you get both and they get half or 25% of a man?

[Midwestmissy]

Not making a choice is in fact making a choice. You're not tortured and confused by love, you're selfish. You made a vow to your wife - if you can't be a man about it, please let her go. Then you can have your relationship with the ow - because who doesn't love a relationship started with deceit? You probably know that won't turn out so well. What you're doing is really weak and ugly. And you love being in the middle which is why you remain there, all lovesick. You have all the capability to do the right thing, you just don't want to do it.

[ChickiePops]

Setting aside all the other (considerable!) aspects involved. I can't help but wonder this - if you really, truly loved your AP, would you put her through this?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

The OP doesn't love anyone but himself. That's why he's not worried about who he hurts. It almost seems like he's getting off on hurting both women.

[calmb4thestorm]

The OP doesn't love anyone but himself. That's why he's not worried about who he hurts. It almost seems like he's getting off on hurting both women.

 

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't love either. Or at least not enough to commit to either exclusively. But I want to change that. I can't go on like this. Of course I'm being selfish. This is the most selfish thing I've ever done. But I'm not getting off on hurting anyone. It's the reality of the situation though.

[MidnightBlue1980]

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't love either. Or at least not enough to commit to either exclusively. But I want to change that. I can't go on like this. Of course I'm being selfish. This is the most selfish thing I've ever done. But I'm not getting off on hurting anymore. It's the reality of the situation though.

 

Who do you want to be with?

[calmb4thestorm]

Who do you want to be with?

 

Ok, to be candid, I think I feel like I should be with my wife - that that's where my moral obligation lies -, but I like the idea of wanting to be with my affair partner. They are opposite people.

 

BS is loyal, compassionate, trustworthy, pretty -- but not stunning, slightly overweight, grounded, intelligent, caring

 

AP is outgoing, charming, humorous, sassy, flirty, sexy, gorgeous, stunning (body of a 20 yr old)

 

AP and BS both want me for themselves. With AP I feel like there are already some trust issues that I have (can't help but wonder where she is or what she's doing if prolonged gap in communication) even though I recognize that I have no right to these feelings anyway unless we were exclusively together. I'm sure it's more of a product of the way we met than anything else, as I'm reasonably confident she isn't involved with anyone else and she tells me as much.

Edited August 16, 2016 by calmb4thestorm

[S2B]

If you look closely at your actions - you will see how you've been harming both women...yet you think they both want you.

 

Why do they need to CONTINUE being harmed by you?

 

The relationship that will prevail is the oneYOU nurture the most. Pick one and minimize the harm you've caused - in fact, start repairing the pain you've caused.

 

Make a plan and do that. You waiting to "decide" is just wanting your ego fed for a longer period of time = and as long as ego is involved there's no room for loving behavior.

 

It's just not right for either gal - you know that...end the cake eating and step up to the big boy table.

[OneLov]

Ok, to be candid, I think I feel like I should be with my wife - that that's where my moral obligation lies -, but I like the idea of wanting to be with my affair partner. They are opposite people.

 

 

Textbook split-self affair. I hate to say this, but it is going to be a rough road. I sincerely wish you the best.

[wmacbride]

Ok, to be candid, I think I feel like I should be with my wife - that that's where my moral obligation lies -, but I like the idea of wanting to be with my affair partner. They are opposite people.

 

BS is loyal, compassionate, trustworthy, pretty -- but not stunning, slightly overweight, grounded, intelligent, caring

 

AP is outgoing, charming, humorous, sassy, flirty, sexy, gorgeous, stunning (body of a 20 yr old)

 

AP and BS both want me for themselves. With AP I feel like there are already some trust issues that I have (can't help but wonder where she is or what she's doing if prolonged gap in communication) even though I recognize that I have no right to these feelings anyway unless we were exclusively together. I'm sure it's more of a product of the way we met than anything else, as I'm reasonably confident she isn't involved with anyone else and she tells me as much.

 

If by "sassy" ( I hate that term...it's usually equates to being a euphemism for bratty or something worse) you mean some one who will cheat on her spouse and whom you can't ever really trust, you've got her pegged. Her "sassiness" may well prove to be a less than desirable trait as time goes by.

 

She is also someone who is a-okay with hurting another woman she has never met. I can't remember if you have any kids or no, but she is also willing to hurt them by both hurting their mother and being a part of what potentially ends their parent's marriage.

 

You need to stop seeing your ow as some sort of a victim in all fo this. She is no victim. She chose to be with a married man, what on earth did she think was going to happen? No matter what promises you might have made, she is an adult, and she knew what she was getting in to.

 

At any rate, I suppose none fo that matters. By choosing both, you are, in effect choosing your ow, as she is willing to knowing wait in the wings while you sneak around behind your bs back.

 

For goodness sake, grow up, grow a pair and either be honest with your w, let her know all that has been going on and ask her if she will be willing to work with you to repair the damage you have done or tell your wife the truth and ask her for a divorce so you can be with your ow.

 

If you decide the second, make it a clean break and don't keep your wife dangling while you decide if you and your ow can make a go of it.

 

If i had to make a prediction, if you choose your ow, a few years from now you will be wondering where your sexy and sassy girlfriend/spouse is when she goes out every night, and wishing you were home with your ex-wife, who has moved on and if very happy with someone else.

[MidnightBlue1980]

Ok, to be candid, I think I feel like I should be with my wife - that that's where my moral obligation lies -, but I like the idea of wanting to be with my affair partner. They are opposite people.

 

BS is loyal, compassionate, trustworthy, pretty -- but not stunning, slightly overweight, grounded, intelligent, caring

 

AP is outgoing, charming, humorous, sassy, flirty, sexy, gorgeous, stunning (body of a 20 yr old)

 

AP and BS both want me for themselves. With AP I feel like there are already some trust issues that I have (can't help but wonder where she is or what she's doing if prolonged gap in communication) even though I recognize that I have no right to these feelings anyway unless we were exclusively together. I'm sure it's more of a product of the way we met than anything else, as I'm reasonably confident she isn't involved with anyone else and she tells me as much.

 

How would you feel if you left your marriage and your AP left you? Would you still feel like you made the right decision to leave? This happens a lot, to both genders. I have no vested interest in your answer but it is an important question. If you leave, you need to be okay with being on your own and meeting someone new because these things typically don't work out. Maybe it would, some do. But you need to be okay with it not.

[calmb4thestorm]

Textbook split-self affair. I hate to say this, but it is going to be a rough road. I sincerely wish you the best.

 

While we're at it, I also feel I suffer a bit from the madonna/whore complex and maybe a bit of WKS too. My AP has some problems and I feel that I could make her life better, ironically, by giving up the one that I currently have. Would she stick with me longterm? Who knows? She says she would.

 

How would you feel if you left your marriage and your AP left you? Would you still feel like you made the right decision to leave? This happens a lot, to both genders. I have no vested interest in your answer but it is an important question. If you leave, you need to be okay with being on your own and meeting someone new because these things typically don't work out. Maybe it would, some do. But you need to be okay with it not.

 

No, I'm not sure that I would. I'd probably kick myself. My AP knows that if I left my wife, it would mainly be to be with her.

 

I still love my wife, but then I wish she was fit and beautiful, and then I loathe myself more, because it's so superficial of me to want that. But we also only live once, and sexuality and attractiveness are important, are they not? She's not morbidly obese, but I crave a lululemon body. And I had never had that before I met my AP, and now that I've had a taste of it, I'm finding it hard to go back. It's like test driving a lambo and then returning to your civic. Or dining every night on filet mignon and then returning to Kraft macaroni. I'm really trivializing it and the metaphors are disrespectful, but you get the point. But the lambo and filet mignon both come with baggage too, so it's hard to sort out.

[waterwoman]

While we're at it, I also feel I suffer a bit from the madonna/whore complex and maybe a bit of WKS too. My AP has some problems and I feel that I could make her life better, ironically, by giving up the one that I currently have. Would she stick with me longterm? Who knows? She says she would.

 

 

 

No, I'm not sure that I would. I'd probably kick myself. My AP knows that if I left my wife, it would mainly be to be with her.

 

I still love my wife, but then I wish she was fit and beautiful, and then I loathe myself more, because it's so superficial of me to want that. But we also only live once, and sexuality and attractiveness are important, are they not? She's not morbidly obese, but I crave a lululemon body. And I had never had that before I met my AP, and now that I've had a taste of it, I'm finding it hard to go back. It's like test driving a lambo and then returning to your civic. Or dining every night on filet mignon and then returning to Kraft macaroni. I'm really trivializing it and the metaphors are disrespectful, but you get the point. But the lambo and filet mignon both come with baggage too, so it's hard to sort out.

 

 

Show your wife this post and your decision will be made for you. Simple

[Mr. Lucky]

While we're at it, I also feel I suffer a bit from the madonna/whore complex and maybe a bit of WKS too.

 

You need to focus less on acronyms and psychobabble shortcuts and pay more attention to the actual pain you inflict on others. You come across as more than a little heartless...

 

Mr. Lucky

[MidnightBlue1980]

While we're at it, I also feel I suffer a bit from the madonna/whore complex and maybe a bit of WKS too. My AP has some problems and I feel that I could make her life better, ironically, by giving up the one that I currently have. Would she stick with me longterm? Who knows? She says she would.

 

 

 

No, I'm not sure that I would. I'd probably kick myself. My AP knows that if I left my wife, it would mainly be to be with her.

 

I still love my wife, but then I wish she was fit and beautiful, and then I loathe myself more, because it's so superficial of me to want that. But we also only live once, and sexuality and attractiveness are important, are they not? She's not morbidly obese, but I crave a lululemon body. And I had never had that before I met my AP, and now that I've had a taste of it, I'm finding it hard to go back. It's like test driving a lambo and then returning to your civic. Or dining every night on filet mignon and then returning to Kraft macaroni. I'm really trivializing it and the metaphors are disrespectful, but you get the point. But the lambo and filet mignon both come with baggage too, so it's hard to sort out.

 

I get the point and actually, you described my situation except I was the MW. He said the same things, he couldn't go back. He did go back though and there he is but he said it is very difficult for him to perform. My H and male friend also used the steak metaphor to try and make me feel better (I don't want to hijack your thread, you can look up my story if you are bored).

 

If you want to work it out with your wife, I will tell you there is nothing wrong with wanting your spouse to be their greatest version. You can't expect a woman to be a supermodel after a certain age and kids but you can help her become the woman she would like to be. Join a gym together. Change your diet together. Complement her. Take her shopping for clothes and lingerie. Encourage her to get her hair done. Waxing. Nails. I bet your wife would love you to show interest in her.

 

Or maybe not. I described my marriage there but I know for xMM, his wife is not interested in fitness or diet changes. For some people that is a dealbreaker but you owe to her to try.

[MidnightBlue1980]

 

I still love my wife, but then I wish she was fit and beautiful, and then I loathe myself more, because it's so superficial of me to want that. But we also only live once, and sexuality and attractiveness are important, are they not? She's not morbidly obese, but I crave a lululemon body. And I had never had that before I met my AP, and now that I've had a taste of it, I'm finding it hard to go back. It's like test driving a lambo and then returning to your civic. Or dining every night on filet mignon and then returning to Kraft macaroni. I'm really trivializing it and the metaphors are disrespectful, but you get the point. But the lambo and filet mignon both come with baggage too, so it's hard to sort out.

 

Let me ask you, are you a filet or a macaroni? It's unfair if you are two macaronis all your life and then you want her to be a filet.

[ChickiePops]

Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't love either. Or at least not enough to commit to either exclusively. But I want to change that. I can't go on like this. Of course I'm being selfish. This is the most selfish thing I've ever done. But I'm not getting off on hurting anyone. It's the reality of the situation though.

 

The situation that YOU created. The situation that YOU are perpetuating. This is 100% your fault. What you're doing is disgusting and it is very clear that you don't care about either of these women one tiny bit.

[calmb4thestorm]

Let me ask you, are you a filet or a macaroni? It's unfair if you are two macaronis all your life and then you want her to be a filet.

 

I am not filet mignon (depending on your definition), but I am a far cry from macaroni. I recognize the hypocrisy in expecting a certain standard when one is not exactly up to snuff themselves. But I have made a deliberate effort to get myself in sexy shape and my spouse isn't exactly there.

 

The situation that YOU created. The situation that YOU are perpetuating. This is 100% your fault. What you're doing is disgusting and it is very clear that you don't care about either of these women one tiny bit.

 

I appreciate your bluntness. And you're right. It's 100% my fault. No one else's. So what should I do? Dump the OW and divorce my spouse and live alone? I have the financial wherewithal to do that. I could do that. It would kind of suck, but I've always been independent, so I can survive.