"Destabilization Phase" and your thoughts and experience

[Chica80]

I am just coming to certain realizations about myself and all this stuff and trying to help. I can only imagine how impossible it would have been to move on if I kept seeing xMM privately. The only thing that has helped me has been not talking to him. I'm currently trying to break the hold he has on me to ruin my day with an email or talking to me. I'm trying to let go of the anger. I believe it's the last emotion I am holding onto.

 

MB just a question. Do you think some of this anger you are projecting onto MM is actually towards your H.

 

Don't get me wrong your MM sounds like a complete @$$.....but you don't say much about BS. I know you are a BS as well.

How are things going there?

 

You've had some really great moments of clarity. It's not always a straight forward cycle...sometimes we go acceptance than anger again or depression again..back to acceptance.

 

Hang in there.

[MidnightBlue1980]

MB just a question. Do you think some of this anger you are projecting onto MM is actually towards your H.

 

Don't get me wrong your MM sounds like a complete @$$.....but you don't say much about BS. I know you are a BS as well.

How are things going there?

 

You've had some really great moments of clarity. It's not always a straight forward cycle...sometimes we go acceptance than anger again or depression again..back to acceptance.

 

Hang in there.

 

I definitely spent a lot of time being angry at H and xMM, but really the person to blame for all this is myself. Yes, H was ignoring me for years. Yes, xmm was there, setting it up with his 'I've been in love with you for years.' But it was me, I did all this, no one but me. Unlike xmm, who played the victim card, I own my stuff. I knew what I was doing, I just made the mistake of thinking I was in control of the situation when xmm was masterminding it.

 

And I have wasted almost all of 2016 on all this crap, unable to let go and just move on. That's on me. So the person to be mad at - is me. I'm working on not hating myself and just letting go of it all.

 

As for being a BS, I hate that expression because it conveys one is innocent, this victim. Sure, some are innocent and some WS are chronic cheaters and pretty terrible people. But for a lot, the waters are murky - I hardly consider myself innocent. Affairs seldom happen in a vacuum. Just as my H ignored me, I ignored my H. Our reasons were very legitimate - kids, work etc. - but when you leave your spouse alone and lonely, temptation is just a heartbeat away. Anyone can cheat; most people are as faithful as their options and their boundaries. So I forgave him as he forgave me. I did not attend to him, give him attention - and someone else did - and wanted him. I'm not even mad at the OW, after all, what kind of a hypocrite would I be. I feel bad for her. There are no winners in these things.

 

The whole experience taught me a valuable life lesson.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Sorry it was after 130am so some things weren't explained well.

 

We do everything but actual intercourse. Partly..maybe it's his line he won't cross. Partly because somehow that has made it more painful, emotionally in the past for me. I'm a very sexual person in general...when I'm stressed I need it even more. He came over I told him I wanted to see him. He said we could go for a quick drink. So it's always a back and forth. Be physical not be physical. He was happy sitting on the couch talking. I pushed for more. No matter what he always makes sure I get off. He is ok not, as long as my physical needs are met. (does that explain better? Sorry don't want to be too graphic on thread)

 

He won't leave his wife. I don't want him to. Because it will ruin everything for him. There is not future for us. I know this have always known this. Have I hoped. Of course!! I wished he would have changed his mind. I had hoped for it. But knew he wouldn't.

 

Since the start of A. to now. I have changed I have grown more. I'm just not ready yet. I don't know when that will be. I've told him I will move on when I'm ready. Not sure what it is I'm waiting for. Maybe for DDAY to come for him to have no choice. To cut me out abandon me and that will complete my cycle of love and abandonment.....

 

Reason why I ask is that my xmm was the same - we did everything but sex and he would always take care of me. In his mind that wasn't AS bad as sex even though it was still cheating! I think he could justify it all to himself better if that didn't happen. Of course that line eventually got crossed. I am reminded of Bill Clinton "I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman!".

[Chica80]

Reason why I ask is that my xmm was the same - we did everything but sex and he would always take care of me. In his mind that wasn't AS bad as sex even though it was still cheating! I think he could justify it all to himself better if that didn't happen. Of course that line eventually got crossed. I am reminded of Bill Clinton "I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman!".

 

Haha.....true, so true.

 

We've had "sex" before. We did before he was married, but only once since. That was a couple months ago.

It's still cheating. I've told him the other stuff talking etc makes it worse, don't know if he agrees. Have no idea what he thinks most of the time.

 

This is not sustainable. I understand that. I don't want t be on the side. I've always said that so I stop I push away, but I come back.

 

We can go days we talk everyday. I will say I want to see him (basically I want to get it on). He will say no. This is bad for you. This is not what you want...and round and round we go. Sometimes he will give in. Sometimes he wont (.......and I just realized that I sound so creepy).

 

And here is the thing. Because of the nature of things, this being an A. I often wonder to myself...well if he turns down Sex and is still there emotionally etc....he must care about me it's not just sex he wants. Then I think or he could just be super smart and manipulative, and this is somehow part of the chase.....

 

So it drives me crazy.....I obsess and try to figure out whys etc. I never can. So then I just come back and say well what does he do the rest of the time. How does he act how does he treat me....so it's cycles. Big cycles lil cycles.....because ultimately it's not him. I'm the one who keeps coming back. I'm also the one who pushes away. So.....why I'm in IC....

[MidnightBlue1980]

Haha.....true, so true.

 

We've had "sex" before. We did before he was married, but only once since. That was a couple months ago.

It's still cheating. I've told him the other stuff talking etc makes it worse, don't know if he agrees. Have no idea what he thinks most of the time.

 

This is not sustainable. I understand that. I don't want t be on the side. I've always said that so I stop I push away, but I come back.

 

We can go days we talk everyday. I will say I want to see him (basically I want to get it on). He will say no. This is bad for you. This is not what you want...and round and round we go. Sometimes he will give in. Sometimes he wont (.......and I just realized that I sound so creepy).

 

And here is the thing. Because of the nature of things, this being an A. I often wonder to myself...well if he turns down Sex and is still there emotionally etc....he must care about me it's not just sex he wants. Then I think or he could just be super smart and manipulative, and this is somehow part of the chase.....

 

So it drives me crazy.....I obsess and try to figure out whys etc. I never can. So then I just come back and say well what does he do the rest of the time. How does he act how does he treat me....so it's cycles. Big cycles lil cycles.....because ultimately it's not him. I'm the one who keeps coming back. I'm also the one who pushes away. So.....why I'm in IC....

 

He is making you chase and pursue him so he can feel like he is not the bad guy, he is thinking in his head that you are the aggressor and he the victim. JMHO

[ladydesigner]

I definitely spent a lot of time being angry at H and xMM, but really the person to blame for all this is myself. Yes, H was ignoring me for years. Yes, xmm was there, setting it up with his 'I've been in love with you for years.' But it was me, I did all this, no one but me. Unlike xmm, who played the victim card, I own my stuff. I knew what I was doing, I just made the mistake of thinking I was in control of the situation when xmm was masterminding it.

 

And I have wasted almost all of 2016 on all this crap, unable to let go and just move on. That's on me. So the person to be mad at - is me. I'm working on not hating myself and just letting go of it all.

 

As for being a BS, I hate that expression because it conveys one is innocent, this victim. Sure, some are innocent and some WS are chronic cheaters and pretty terrible people. But for a lot, the waters are murky - I hardly consider myself innocent. Affairs seldom happen in a vacuum. Just as my H ignored me, I ignored my H. Our reasons were very legitimate - kids, work etc. - but when you leave your spouse alone and lonely, temptation is just a heartbeat away. Anyone can cheat; most people are as faithful as their options and their boundaries. So I forgave him as he forgave me. I did not attend to him, give him attention - and someone else did - and wanted him. I'm not even mad at the OW, after all, what kind of a hypocrite would I be. I feel bad for her. There are no winners in these things.

 

The whole experience taught me a valuable life lesson.

 

(((MidnightBlue1980))) yep this is the biggest thing I have hung onto as a fMOW and a BS and that is the amount of time I have spent wasting or hanging onto things. I spent far too long getting over my xOM and far too long getting over my WH's A with MOW. I have wasted YEARS not focusing on MYSELF.

 

You cannot get time back. I cannot get that time back for me and I cannot get that time back for my kids.

 

Thank god Midnight your A did not go on for years and years! The anger does seem to be the last step! You will get there! I can see your progress

[Chica80]

He is making you chase and pursue him so he can feel like he is not the bad guy, he is thinking in his head that you are the aggressor and he the victim. JMHO

 

Ya maybe.....you might have a point there.

[ladydesigner]

He is making you chase and pursue him so he can feel like he is not the bad guy, he is thinking in his head that you are the aggressor and he the victim. JMHO

 

A MM will do whatever they can to not feel like the bad guy. They even do this in their M's with their wives

[jenkins95]

A MM will do whatever they can to not feel like the bad guy. They even do this in their M's with their wives

 

Yes, guilty as charged here! I HATE being the bad guy, as I've always been a 'good guy' in all other aspects of my life.

 

The way I tend to twist things is that i was a foolish, naive lost soul, who made some silly, selfish decisions when I was at a low point, not thinking properly and forbidden curiosity got the better of me. I never meant to hurt people, but things got out of hand before I knew where I was.

 

Actually, this is pretty much the truth when viewed from one angle. BUT, it doesn't change the fact that I'm the bad guy - one of the very worst when I think back - deceit, lies and cheating became second nature. If it was an Olympic sport, my cabinets would be full of gold medals!

 

So glad that is behind me now. No one wants to be the pantomime villain, right guys?!

[ladydesigner]

Yes, guilty as charged here! I HATE being the bad guy, as I've always been a 'good guy' in all other aspects of my life.

 

The way I tend to twist things is that i was a foolish, naive lost soul, who made some silly, selfish decisions when I was at a low point, not thinking properly and forbidden curiosity got the better of me. I never meant to hurt people, but things got out of hand before I knew where I was.

 

Actually, this is pretty much the truth when viewed from one angle. BUT, it doesn't change the fact that I'm the bad guy - one of the very worst when I think back - deceit, lies and cheating became second nature. If it was an Olympic sport, my cabinets would be full of gold medals!

 

So glad that is behind me now. No one wants to be the pantomime villain, right guys?!

 

Well you would not be the only one! Being in my A was one of the worst times of my life! Not only did it make me feel crappy but I turned into a crap person too for it. Better to learn from these things than to continue on like many others! Experience learned!

[jenkins95]

Well you would not be the only one! Being in my A was one of the worst times of my life! Not only did it make me feel crappy but I turned into a crap person too for it. Better to learn from these things than to continue on like many others! Experience learned!

 

I'll drink to that! Experience learned indeed. I literally want to scream from the rooftops "DON'T EVER HAVE AN AFFAIR!" to anyone who'll listen. But even in the time that it has taken me to write this message, it is likely that 10 or more affairs have started somewhere in the world.

 

Unfortunately, people tend to learn the hard way. I knew affairs were bad even before I had one - we all did. But i didn't ever dream what the extent of the consequences could be. You can only ever learn that from bitter experience. I do admire the occasional poster we come across on LS looking for advice BEFORE they have an affair. When I arrived here, my life was already a post-apocalyptic war zone!

[Grey Cloud]

Haha.....true, so true.

 

We've had "sex" before. We did before he was married, but only once since. That was a couple months ago.

It's still cheating. I've told him the other stuff talking etc makes it worse, don't know if he agrees. Have no idea what he thinks most of the time.

 

This is not sustainable. I understand that. I don't want t be on the side. I've always said that so I stop I push away, but I come back.

 

We can go days we talk everyday. I will say I want to see him (basically I want to get it on). He will say no. This is bad for you. This is not what you want...and round and round we go. Sometimes he will give in. Sometimes he wont (.......and I just realized that I sound so creepy).

 

And here is the thing. Because of the nature of things, this being an A. I often wonder to myself...well if he turns down Sex and is still there emotionally etc....he must care about me it's not just sex he wants. Then I think or he could just be super smart and manipulative, and this is somehow part of the chase.....

 

So it drives me crazy.....I obsess and try to figure out whys etc. I never can. So then I just come back and say well what does he do the rest of the time. How does he act how does he treat me....so it's cycles. Big cycles lil cycles.....because ultimately it's not him. I'm the one who keeps coming back. I'm also the one who pushes away. So.....why I'm in IC....

 

Is intermittent reinforcement. You want to get it on, he says no but eventually one of the times he caves. The uncertainty keeps you hooked.

 

My xMM withholding from actual sex was him trying to control himself. He was worried if we did that then the floodgates would open and he would never want to stop. Which is kind of what happened eventually. Plus in some twisted way he thought he was respecting his marriage vows which I never understood! He never really admitted to himself that we were in an affair until we slept together.

[Chica80]

Is intermittent reinforcement. You want to get it on, he says no but eventually one of the times he caves. The uncertainty keeps you hooked.

 

My xMM withholding from actual sex was him trying to control himself. He was worried if we did that then the floodgates would open and he would never want to stop. Which is kind of what happened eventually. Plus in some twisted way he thought he was respecting his marriage vows which I never understood! He never really admitted to himself that we were in an affair until we slept together.

 

This is a good point...I don't think it's the uncertainty that keeps me hooked. I think it's all the other aspects of it. The emotional the attachment etc....

Ya maybe it is a way of respecting his vows. As he should. As he should feel guilty. We both should, and do at different times. The thing is I'm not a victim, he isn't "conning me and manipulating me" I'm here because I choose to continue... for whatever "****ed reasons they might be.

When we crossed that line the last time. It made things a lot harder and more confusing for ME. As much as I want to. I can sit here and go on and on about how selfish he is and hurtful etc. How he is using me.. but aren't I doing the same?

[Chica80]

Grey I just went back and read some of your old post. I saw you never had a dday? That you are also married? How is that going? Have things improved? Why do you think you got into A?

[Messy Lady]

He is making you chase and pursue him so he can feel like he is not the bad guy, he is thinking in his head that you are the aggressor and he the victim. JMHO

 

 

This is what my MM does. It's as if he's a completely innocent victim who I gave no choice to. Yet every time he's ended things, he's been the one who started it all up again. It just makes the whole on/off process even more painful.

[HeCantBreakMe]

This is what my MM does. It's as if he's a completely innocent victim who I gave no choice to. Yet every time he's ended things, he's been the one who started it all up again. It just makes the whole on/off process even more painful.

 

Messy how are you doing?

[Messy Lady]

Messy how are you doing?

 

Up and down.

 

After my last thread where he'd ended things again in late August, he came back for more only to end it again last week. That was another time when he basically put it all on me that the affair (not that he calls it that) happened. He came out with all these lines about why he could not continue completely ignoring the fact that these reasons (eg could not do sex without a deep emotional connection) hadn't stopped him over the last six months. He also admitted that he knew all along it wasn't just sex for me even though I'd said that early on (knowing that's what he wanted to hear).

 

In work, he treats me with utmost respect and is very caring but all as colleagues though much closer than we are with anybody else. I know it's not over for me yet, he knows that too. That last time we were "together" was the best yet (sorry ) so I'm not convinced it's completely over for him yet either. As Elaine says, MM gets horny, has sex, pulls away, MM gets horny,....

 

And I let him carry on like this yet he plays victim.

[HeCantBreakMe]

Up and down.

 

After my last thread where he'd ended things again in late August, he came back for more only to end it again last week. That was another time when he basically put it all on me that the affair (not that he calls it that) happened. He came out with all these lines about why he could not continue completely ignoring the fact that these reasons (eg could not do sex without a deep emotional connection) hadn't stopped him over the last six months. He also admitted that he knew all along it wasn't just sex for me even though I'd said that early on (knowing that's what he wanted to hear).

 

In work, he treats me with utmost respect and is very caring but all as colleagues though much closer than we are with anybody else. I know it's not over for me yet, he knows that too. That last time we were "together" was the best yet (sorry ) so I'm not convinced it's completely over for him yet either. As Elaine says, MM gets horny, has sex, pulls away, MM gets horny,....

 

And I let him carry on like this yet he plays victim.

 

I am sorry to hear this. I am still rooting for you and know that you will come out of this okay in the end. Feel free to PM me- I have always felt linked to your story maybe because we both work with our MM (xMM) for me and we are both married but I am here if you need someone to talk to.

[Messy Lady]

Thank you

 

He's been flirting with me again today, making innuendos, playfully touching me, even hugging me at one stage.

[HeCantBreakMe]

Thank you

 

He's been flirting with me again today, making innuendos, playfully touching me, even hugging me at one stage.

 

Ugh can I come punch him?

[Messy Lady]

Ugh can I come punch him?

 

 

Just before he left work yesterday he asked me if I still love him. This is this joking way we have had between us so is not seen as a declaration of being in love or anything like that but he only ever asks it when we are "on" or getting closer again whilst "off". It certainly isn't appropriate or professional if we are just colleagues. Only last week when he ended things again, I pointed out that during the last "off" time he was flirting with me, giving me the idea we were still "on" and that if it's over, he needs to be consistent. He agreed that was fair (only after he'd as good as blamed me for the affair!) then yesterday happened. I loved that he asked me but it also saddens me.

 

I really had been doing my best to be just colleagues - maybe that contributes to him thinking it's safe to come back for more as he knows he can keep me at a distance to stop me becoming too much of a problem.

 

I also know I'm spending time thinking about this and he isn't.

[Jersey born raised]

Messy,

 

While all this is going on, what have you done to address the issues in your marriage? As long as a person focuses on the adultery the marriage and the comminted spouse continues to wither and die. It is simple what is more important to you? That's where you put your focus.

 

Yes the adultery needs to be addressed but so dies marriage

Edited October 13, 2016 by Jersey born raised

[MidnightBlue1980]

I'll drink to that! Experience learned indeed. I literally want to scream from the rooftops "DON'T EVER HAVE AN AFFAIR!" to anyone who'll listen. But even in the time that it has taken me to write this message, it is likely that 10 or more affairs have started somewhere in the world.

 

Unfortunately, people tend to learn the hard way. I knew affairs were bad even before I had one - we all did. But i didn't ever dream what the extent of the consequences could be. You can only ever learn that from bitter experience. I do admire the occasional poster we come across on LS looking for advice BEFORE they have an affair. When I arrived here, my life was already a post-apocalyptic war zone!

 

This thread is like a book of short stories where it goes back and forth between different people's lives which are independent of each other.

 

Jenkins, if you read this, for whatever reason I read your long post on the general board, your whole story and I just wanted to say I was really touched. It sounds pretty horrific for all parties involved and it sounds like you really went through a traumatic experience. It didn't even sound like a normal relationship, I mean it was like reading a persons account of a something really, really bad they went through, I am not even sure of the words, like a wartime experience or I don't know...

 

Did you feel like you had PTSD? I did, so I was wondering. I got anxiety attacks if I saw someone who even reminded me of xmm. It was just terrible. Even now, if I have to talk to him, I shake - literally, I had to write out checks beforehand because I cannot write in front of him. It's really strange. If he comes near me and tries to talk to me, I will shake coffee all over the floor.

 

Anyway, I am glad you are doing so much better and out of that dark place. Me too!

[ImaginaryDream]

I came to a realization a few nights ago. I've been with MM 3+ years now, and I've always put up with the hot and cold, the hiding, the hurt.. because I loved him, and I didn't care how I could have him.. having him in any way was better than not having him at all in my mind. Despite how badly I have been treated, I was ok with it. I would convince myself I was ok with it.

 

The other night, he was a few hours away overnight for a work conference and we got a hotel room. The first time we could really, truly have hours and hours together, and even spend the night together. He was perfect. Everything was about me. I had always wanted to take a long bubble bath with him, so we did. He spent the whole time doing everything I asked for and everything I wanted. It was perfect. As we held each other and fell asleep I remember thinking how wonderful I felt. But then another thought hit me that shook me to my very core..

 

"This is as good as it's ever going to get."

 

I don't know if I can really explain the intense sadness that swept over me. It was in that specific moment that I really truly understood the fact that I was sacrificing my life and happiness for someone who will forever be unavailable to me, physically and emotionally. No amount of bad treatment the years before ever truly hit home like it did when things were so good..

 

I can't tell you all that I'm going to turn a new leaf and leave this man with that realization I had. I know I should. I also know it will take time to accept and that this cycle I am in will take some time to break. But it felt good to share.

[Chica80]

I came to a realization a few nights ago. I've been with MM 3+ years now, and I've always put up with the hot and cold, the hiding, the hurt.. because I loved him, and I didn't care how I could have him.. having him in any way was better than not having him at all in my mind. Despite how badly I have been treated, I was ok with it. I would convince myself I was ok with it.

 

The other night, he was a few hours away overnight for a work conference and we got a hotel room. The first time we could really, truly have hours and hours together, and even spend the night together. He was perfect. Everything was about me. I had always wanted to take a long bubble bath with him, so we did. He spent the whole time doing everything I asked for and everything I wanted. It was perfect. As we held each other and fell asleep I remember thinking how wonderful I felt. But then another thought hit me that shook me to my very core..

 

"This is as good as it's ever going to get."

 

I don't know if I can really explain the intense sadness that swept over me. It was in that specific moment that I really truly understood the fact that I was sacrificing my life and happiness for someone who will forever be unavailable to me, physically and emotionally. No amount of bad treatment the years before ever truly hit home like it did when things were so good..

 

I can't tell you all that I'm going to turn a new leaf and leave this man with that realization I had. I know I should. I also know it will take time to accept and that this cycle I am in will take some time to break. But it felt good to share.

 

It's all part of the fantasy....that's what keeps you where you are. When you are feeling sad and hurt left you hold onto those "moments" the love the happiness.

I know I do it too... But where is he the rest of the time?