Looking for others perspectives.

[Ruffian1]

I am afraid the reality is that he simply does not want to tell me he loves his wife.

 

Wow, um no, he Does Not Love his BS.

 

Actions, not words, he has been lying to her and using her for so long.

 

If that is his idea of love, get ready for it.

 

Coward didn't have the balls to tell her he moved in with you and made up a lie about a dream job.

 

What a great guy (puke)

 

But of course it would be different if he was with you . . .

[Oran]

Lobe, lady, you are like a hammer - hitting every nail on the head.

[Oran]

Hi Jenkins95

 

Thanks for your reply. I've been reading some of your earlier threads. Really useful. Remarkable how similar these stories are. Depression, feelings of incompatibility, married young.

 

I'm learning.

[Lobe]

Lobe, lady, you are like a hammer - hitting every nail on the head.

 

I just hope it made you smile, in light of the sad and stressful situation you've found yourself in. I think Madame Yes is my alter ego lol

[whichwayisup]

AP has agreed to reconciliation

 

Let him go. This man has wavered back and forth between you and his wife. He has had many chances to really leave her once and for all, divorce and be with you! Each time he has chosen his wife. Time for you to choose to leave and focus on letting go, healing and moving on.

 

He will always be torn and you'll never be his number one. You deserve so much better than he's able to give you so PLEASE don't continue an A with him, let alone 'wait' in the wings hoping some day he'll change his mind and come back to you.

[13Hearts]

Have I finally done the right thing?

 

Yes.

 

Is there any point holding out hope that perhaps this man does love me?

 

Love's got nothing to do with it. And no, there's no point in it.

 

Can they reconcile their marriage if BS feels that she has blackmailed him into returning to her?

 

Yes.

 

Am I a complete fool?

 

No. MM is a very weak, confused individual who doesn't know his azz from a hole in the ground. Move on and find someone who isn't so spineless and at least knows somewhat what he wants out of life.

[jenkins95]

I just hope it made you smile, in light of the sad and stressful situation you've found yourself in. I think Madame Yes is my alter ego lol

 

 

You always make me smile Lobe! You are like a breath of fresh air! Keep the wonderful contributions coming!

[jenkins95]

Hi Jenkins95

Thanks for your reply. I've been reading some of your earlier threads. Really useful. Remarkable how similar these stories are. Depression, feelings of incompatibility, married young.

I'm learning.

Thanks Oran, and well done for finding LS. We're here for you!

 

Yes, it is quite incredible how often these stories and the patterns/typical timeline of events plays out.

 

One of the most damaging things we see on these forums is the ambivalent, indecisive MM. Giving hope, love bombing, then suddenly feeling guilty, pulling back, regretting, leaning towards his marriage, then changing his mind again., pursuing you again....etc, etc. It can be so destructive to everyone in the story - especially the OW and the W. From what you've said, your MM has elements of this in him and has the potential to mess both you and his wife around even more than he already has.

 

If you take control and go NC, you take him out of the equation and ensure that he can't hurt you any more.

 

Whichever way you proceed, you have us...and you are one of us!

 

Good luck Oran, J

[jenkins95]

Have I finally done the right thing?

 

Yes.

 

Is there any point holding out hope that perhaps this man does love me?

 

Love's got nothing to do with it. And no, there's no point in it.

 

Can they reconcile their marriage if BS feels that she has blackmailed him into returning to her?

 

Yes.

 

Am I a complete fool?

 

No. MM is a very weak, confused individual who doesn't know his azz from a hole in the ground. Move on and find someone who isn't so spineless and at least knows somewhat what he wants out of life.

 

 

13Hearts always write with clarity, intelligence and honesty. She tells it like it is, and this post pretty much sums it up., In fact, she took about two sentences to say what it took me three paragraphs to convey!

[Oran]

Jenkins95

 

Can I ask you a question? I'm not sure if this is correct 'etiquette' here or not, but if not, let me know.

 

The question is this. When you were in the A with the OW, do you think you elevated the A from what it was to a 'big love story' because you needed to be seen as good, to deflect away from the idea that you were simply 'cheating'? I don't mean to demean your experience, but I wonder if part of the spell of the A between AP and I has been about this eg it's not an A, not someone having their cake and eating it, it's a tragic love story which may or may not end in long term happiness. And it's motivated by a desire to be seen as being a good person?

[msoptimistic]

Isn't it amazing how intelligent and in-control we can be in every other aspect of our lives and then be so opposite when it comes to As with these MM! I am in Day 5 of NC (sort of-in my story on vacation thread) and already I am thinking how lame and embarrassing some of the lines I fell for were. The whole using kids as a reason to stay can make for a very difficult situation but that argument loses all logic when the kids are adults. As parents, they will handicap these kids from becoming successful adults if they continue to provide everything for them vs giving them the tools they need to face a difficult situation (parents divorcing, finding living accommodations, etc).

 

I have a very close friend who became involved with a MM with grown kids. He left his 20+ year M then went back, then left again because his ex W used the kids to make him feel guilty. These young adults were way old enough to know the manipulation being played and learned to be sneaky in their own Rs. All 3 have R issues that are based on their behaviors. And on top of all of that, she recently found out that the ex had contacted him on hos work phone and he had not willingly disclosed this till a slip of the tongue forced it all out.

 

I think anytime a man wavers between leaving or staying then the OW has her answer. It doesnt matter what excuse he uses the fact is we are not important enough to see it through and face the difficult times and that tells us our place in their lives.

 

NC is a strange creature. There is pain and mourning from loss with a bit of relief mixed in there just to know the decision has been made and time will help. Good luck to you!

[Lobe]

it's a tragic love story which may or may not end in long term happiness. And it's motivated by a desire to be seen as being a good person?

 

This wasn't directed to me but every hair on my body stood up...

 

I read the emails - tomes of WH and xOW lamenting the fact they had this incredible connection, but couldn't/shouldn't act on it. Until they did. How irrisistie is someone who loves you so much they'd be willing to risk everything for a stolen moment with you? He would write about his guilt for having no control over what was written in the stars and she would not only eat it up but sooth him for feeling guilty. About having no control. Not about the affair.

 

Do you see what they did there? Suddenly instead of having free will, they lost their bloody minds. Maybe Mercury was retrograde. Who knows.

 

I have learned in reading through this forum and talking to a few friend with whom I share the unfortunate title BS that the "tragic love story" part of the conversation is a necessary and vital piece of keeping the guilt at bay, to justify not only their own behaviour but to feed the fantasy that would quickly die if the conversation went like this:

 

"Baby, I really love the way you make me feel and blow jobs are awesome. I don't want either of us to feel any guilt about what this will do to our SO/family and I don't want you to feel like I'm just using you to stroke my ego and inject some excitement into my life, so do you mind if we make up a lies about ourselves? Instead of two opportunistic selfish people getting our jollies, lets tell each other we are star-crossed lovers who met at the wrong time. We will make up a pretend future so it drags on as long as possible and if d-day comes, then we can tell the people we hurt that we weren't acting of our own free will not because we think it will soften the blow but because by then we will probably believe our own lies..."

 

This line, this pathetic drivel - it's a tool of delusion. It's the grease in the cogs of the affair. It's like listening to a 12-year old full of puberty talk about their first crush. Are the feelings real? Yup. Are they going to last? Only as long as you never graduate junior high, and by that I mean, if you never leave fantasyland. The irony is, the people in the affair aren't necessarily bad people, they're just making bad choices.

[Oran]

Lobe

 

Thanks for your post. I'm sorry that it had the impact that it did for you, but I'm grateful for your response.

 

When I left AP and asked that there be NC, I thought I'd be driving off into the unknown with tears running down my face. I was upset, but the overriding feeling that I had was of peace and relief. (I understand that this is not how his BS will be feeling). This is day 4 NC, strange to say that as I don't feel that it means that much to me, but useful in seeing where I might be on a parallel to others here. Something has changed/shifted, and the fog is lifting, although I think more of it as a spell being broken.

 

Do you know the Tolstoy quote, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in it's own way.". I realise that for some time I thought other people had affairs, what was happening between AP and I was different. I suppose it's an ego defense, rather than admitting y'know what, you and me are a right couple of c*nts.

 

I know that people meet and fall in love with others. I was in a LTR many years ago when that happened to me. I discussed it with my SO and left our home, to my financial detriment. When a relationship developed with the OM I was living in a place of my own, and I was the first to tell exSO because I didn't want him to hear through the grapevine. It was a difficult and emotional time. But I understand that there are respectful ways to handle painful situations, and even at that, I know I could have done things better.

 

I agree that the kind of magical thinking that happens in an A absolves the OM/OW/AP of taking responsibility for their choices. Nothing exists in isolation, and I knew that if my AP was able to behave as he was towards his BS, equally he was able to behave like that towards me. And I was burying my head in the sand as to how he was behaving towards me. I feel as though I split myself into two different people during this time.

 

I was weak and I made choices that I previously thought I would never make. And I continued to make them. I desperately wanted stability and the possibility of a home and family of my own. The reality was that I was engaging in an A that would deliver none of those things.

[SweetiePi]

Hi Oran. The first sentence I quoted shows that you are indeed intelligent. You write very well and seem to have insight into the decisions you have made.

 

 

Yes, you have done the right thing. He might love you still (even if he still does love his wife), but I always say "sometimes love is not enough". It's hard to say if they can reconcile their marriage. It all depends on both her and him. They are the only ones that know the full story of what is going on in their relationship. You are not a fool... you got caught up in a series of bad decisions. Many of us do. Take care

 

 

Eventually I left my job and my new relationship with my work colleague broke down as he and I were intimidated by my exAPs behavior. (I have to stress that the situation that my AP and his family was going through at the time was devastating, which may go some way to explain his erratic behavior at the time. This is how I have justified it to myself).

 

Please let me know what you think of this situation. I am a relatively intelligent woman (believe it or not) which makes it even more painful to have embroiled myself in this situation.

 

Have I finally done the right thing? Is there any point holding out hope that perhaps this man does love me? Can they reconcile their marriage if BS feels that she has blackmailed him into returning to her? Am I a complete fool?

 

Oran

[Oran]

Thanks for your post SweetiePi.

[jenkins95]

Yes, this is very interesting stuff. I think Oran and Lobe have hit the nail on the head here.

 

This is how it was from my point of view. I know this will make some people cringe and I apologise in advance (please know that I am cringing too as I write this!)....

 

OK, so I never planned to be in an affair and I never had any intention of leaving my marriage, and here I was suddenly finding myself in an affair! (Gee, how did that happen?!)

 

You are both right, to legitimise it and enable it to continue, like anyone with a grain of morality and conscience., it would have been very uncomfortable (and downright unromantic, cold and uncomfortable) for me to simply admit to myself that I was basically a liar and a cheat and that I was cake eating in the most cliched way - as it turns out my "unique" story played out just like most others on LS.

 

So instead of that, I built it up into something special, something magical and "meant to be" in my mind. My own little adventure that I deserved because I'd had to put up with so much cr*p earlier in the marriage...and this was my reward with my very own dream girl right in the middle of it. We were not bad people, I told myself, we were just unfortunate soul mates who had met at the wrong time. We didn't mean to hurt anyone, but this connection was so ridiculously amazing - it was bigger than us, why fight it? how could we possibly not act on it?

 

The thing is, I was a very good compartmentaliser and I actively avoided thinking about where it was going and how it would develop. Like a typical MM, the status quo at the beginning was just great - let's just keep things how they are. My home life stayed pretty much the same for quite a while until things started getting heavy and out of hand and partners became suspicious, etc. Another pathetic justification that I had in my own mind (and other MM use) was that the happiness that this was bringing me was making me a better father and husband at home......and anyway, my wife wasn't THAT in love with me any more...she would understand in her own way. Unbelievable!

 

But whilst I had built up my A to be a magical fairy story, it remained in it's bubble. Somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that I would never leave my wife (unless I was thrown out) and that therefore the A would remain a fairy story. The two worlds were in different planes of existence (until they came crashing down upon each other on D-days). Although I avoided thinking of such things, I accepted that if my xOW and I had met when both single, then things would have played out differently. The illicit nature, the secrecy, the risks, the urgency, the naughtiness and the fact that our little world was open to no one but ourselves (APs can rarely ever have friends, other couples to go out with, etc)....even the guilt and paranoia - it somehow made it even more magical. If we had met as two single people, I have no doubt that we would have made a go of it and may well have built a successful relationship, but it would have felt much more normal. Everything we did and said, how we had sex, etc, it was all done in an over-dramatised "affair" way like you'd see in a Hollywood film.

 

So when Lobe says "this pathetic drivel - it's a tool of delusion", I kind of ashamedly know what she's talking about.

[SweetiePi]

You're welcome Oran. Don't be too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes in this life. You can pick yourself up and be that strong woman you know you are!

 

 

Thanks for your post SweetiePi.

[jenkins95]

Do you know the Tolstoy quote, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in it's own way."

 

That's an excellent Tolstoy quote Oran, and I think it's pretty true. That book, Anna Karenina, illustrated the differing attitudes towards unfaithful men and women in the early 19th century in Russian society.

 

Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but do you believe that unfaithful women still get a tougher ride than unfaithful men?

 

In the book, early on, Anna's brother Stiva has an affair - just for fun, with his daughter's teacher. When it all comes out, he is basically treated like a naughty schoolboy and slapped on the wrist. His wife's devastation is glossed over and largely ignored - he basically says sorry and gives her puppy dog eyes. Society forgives him pretty much straight away and it's forgotten about. But when Anna has an affair for a much "better" reason, in that she's married to an absolute brute of a husband, the whole of society is rocked with scandal. She is completely rejected, vilified and destroyed.

 

OK, things aren't THAT bad these days, but do you feel that men still get it easier and that affairs are more "expected" in men than women?

[Lobe]

Something has changed/shifted, and the fog is lifting, although I think more of it as a spell being broken.

 

You got a visit from the disillusionment fairy!!!! HAHA!

[Lobe]

(and can I just say you're taking ALL the fun out of hating the quintessential OW? lol)

[immokk]

That's an excellent Tolstoy quote Oran, and I think it's pretty true. That book, Anna Karenina, illustrated the differing attitudes towards unfaithful men and women in the early 19th century in Russian society.

 

Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but do you believe that unfaithful women still get a tougher ride than unfaithful men?

 

In the book, early on, Anna's brother Stiva has an affair - just for fun, with his daughter's teacher. When it all comes out, he is basically treated like a naughty schoolboy and slapped on the wrist. His wife's devastation is glossed over and largely ignored - he basically says sorry and gives her puppy dog eyes. Society forgives him pretty much straight away and it's forgotten about. But when Anna has an affair for a much "better" reason, in that she's married to an absolute brute of a husband, the whole of society is rocked with scandal. She is completely rejected, vilified and destroyed.

 

OK, things aren't THAT bad these days, but do you feel that men still get it easier and that affairs are more "expected" in men than women?

 

I think this is true.

 

All that you read, whether in the press or online(FB, forums etc) the woman is a home wrecker or whore (particularly when the OW is single or the MW is the only married party). I don't hear men called this things.

 

I think wives are more likely to forgive an affair then men.

 

In the xMM case, his wife is utterly dependent on him, financially and for a multitude of other things (like I said, known him for years as we'd been friends for 3.5 of those with any type of A). Even if she knew, she wouldn't leave. I know that.

 

And he's unhappy but a coward. He nearly left her once while we were together (And I told him not to! Wrong time, it would have been very bad for him) and once about 1.5 years into my being his friend when he packed a bag at Christmas because he was so unhappy.

 

But she begged. He stayed and then, like Jenks, compartmentalized his marriage, too. He has a lot of hobbies that keep him out of the house (fishing etc and work keeps him away a lot).

 

I'm angry sometimes but mostly, I actually feel a bit sorry for him at the moment. Because I actually know he's unhappy and I know hes gutless.

[immokk]

(and can I just say you're taking ALL the fun out of hating the quintessential OW? lol)

 

Ha... We're not doing in on purpose. We're just all a bit broken and have made daft decisions.

[Lobe]

Ha... We're not doing in on purpose. We're just all a bit broken and have made daft decisions.

 

I imagine on some level, meeting BS's in this forum who aren't actually sexless cold ball-busting b*tches has a somewhat sobering effect for OW who are struggling to let the fantasy go, too. We're all in this together.

 

How are YOU doing today?

[immokk]

I'm okay, actually. The best I've been in regards to the A. Less so about other stuff

 

On my own thread I update that there has been contact (yesterday, I had a bereavement. Not wonderful timing and very hard) from him but I'm back to NC today.

 

Still going

[Oran]

(and can I just say you're taking ALL the fun out of hating the quintessential OW? lol)

 

Over the last 3 years I have been looking online for information and forums that might help me understand what was happening for me. That in itself was a big clue, I didn't want to talk to my friends, because I knew that the A was wrong, and I knew that it was fragile, stuck together with delusion glue.

 

Some things are straightforward, cheating is not the answer, people get hurt. But the people involved, and their respective histories are not straightforward. If AP had said to me in the beginning, 'fancy cheating with me behind my BS's back?', it would have been a no-brainer. His history and mine were challenging by anyone's standards, and that should have made us the best of friends. Like Jenkins95 acknowledged in a previous post, I think if AP had been single, then I think we would have had a good chance of a LTR. However, the one honest thing we had a chance of, a friendship, we chucked in the trash. That's how much we valued one another as people.

 

I watched some TED talk in which a woman, some infidelity expert, said, the BS is the victim of the A, but not always the victim of the M. Now, I know that will raise some hackles and that is not my intention. I can see how this thought could be used to victim-blame the BS, and that is wrong, and I think happens frequently as an ego defense by WSs and APs. Perhaps that was the purpose in my scenario of the adult children as leverage, I am left believing noble AP is reconciling for the sake of the welfare of his family, BS is a manipulative blackmailer. AP is seen by himself and exOW as victim of the M, which 'excuses' his role as co-villain of the A.

 

Much of what I have read until now on other sites has been over simplistic. And to extract myself from this imposed 'spell' requires a making complex again. That is why I think it is useful to hear so many voices here. It is not a case of finding one true voice, or perspective here, but the multitude together certainly helps to support understanding.