Extreme views on infidelity?

[wmacbride]

FWIW, I think that many ( i would say most) ws are not bad people. From what I can tell, most are good people doing something hurtful. they didn't set out to hurt their bs, but that is the end result.

 

Mind you, there are some who don't seem to care, but from what I can tell, these are in the minority.

[JohnAdams]

FWIW, I think that many ( i would say most) ws are not bad people. From what I can tell, most are good people doing something hurtful. they didn't set out to hurt their bs, but that is the end result.

 

Mind you, there are some who don't seem to care, but from what I can tell, these are in the minority.

 

I agree, however there are many WS that continue to justify, make excuses and completely lack remorse. The WS will turn the table and blame the BS for their actions.

[Sub]

This reminds me of my WW's mindset after D-day. She was planning on leaving me for the OM. But here's the rub: she expected - and wanted - me to be the one to make that decision. So it would be on me in the eyes of everyone else. I would have been the one to leave and break up the family. It was kind of amusing in its lack of accountability and naïveté. Texbook definitions and technical recitals of vows are besides the point here.

[Liam1]

I agree, however there are many WS that continue to justify, make excuses and completely lack remorse. The WS will turn the table and blame the BS for their actions.

 

That may be true, for some, but that precludes a valid reason for having the affair.

 

Also there are just as many BSs who rewrite marital history to portray themselves as a perfect spouse with no faults, or who refuse to acknowledge their faults when the affair comes to light and completely lack remorse about their own misbehaviors in the marriage.

 

A relationship can only work if both spouses are introspective enough to take a good clear look at themselves.

 

If a spouse is truly perfect, and the affair offends one's ego so much that they feel less than because of it, than in that case perhaps divorce likely should be considered.

 

Then too there are people who have severe personality disorders and those people are difficult to live with. No one should be a martyr in a marriage like that.

 

It is rare that a normal spouse has an affair for absolutely no reason.

[Sub]

The self-proclaimed "perfect" BS is a straw man. And besides: if we have to be perfect - or near-perfect - to keep our spouses from wandering, we'd all be cheating.

[Mr. Lucky]

It is rare that a normal spouse has an affair for absolutely no reason.

 

You're right, there's lots of reasons a WS might cheat - selfishness, self-centeredness, poor communication skills, conflict avoidance, narcissistic, needy, inconsiderate, disrespectful.

 

Did I leave any out ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mrs. John Adams]

That may be true, for some, but that precludes a valid reason for having the affair.

 

Also there are just as many BSs who rewrite marital history to portray themselves as a perfect spouse with no faults, or who refuse to acknowledge their faults when the affair comes to light and completely lack remorse about their own misbehaviors in the marriage.

 

A relationship can only work if both spouses are introspective enough to take a good clear look at themselves.

 

If a spouse is truly perfect, and the affair offends one's ego so much that they feel less than because of it, than in that case perhaps divorce likely should be considered.

 

Then too there are people who have severe personality disorders and those people are difficult to live with. No one should be a martyr in a marriage like that.

 

It is rare that a normal spouse has an affair for absolutely no reason.

 

there is no valid reason to have an affair. Period.

 

There may be excuses....there may be conditions....there may be circumstances....but absolutely none of them are a valid reason to have an affair.

 

NONE...

 

Especially if we as waywards make the decision to cheat without first asking our spouse if it is ok.

 

Liam,

 

I do not doubt that your marriage is better after your affair. My marriage is better since my affair too....the difference between us is that you say your affair is better BECAUSE of the affair...and I say it is better IN SPITE of the affair. The reason our marriages are better is because we became more aware of the issues and have worked hard to overcome those issues....by talking about them...and reading books...and going to therapy. But the act of having sex with a person other than our spouse is not what saved our marriages. You give the credit to the affair and i give the credit to the time and effort we have put forth.

 

You say your wife abandoned you because she withheld sex from you....yet not one time have I ever heard you say that you went to therapy or to the doctor or tried in any way to figure out why she withheld.

 

Instead ...you took on lovers....but not once have i ever heard you say you asked her how she felt about that. You did not give her a chance to voice her opinion.

 

Yet now you say...your affairs saved your marriage because she is now willing to work on the problems. Perhaps if you had told her you were going to take on a lover...she may have been willing to work on the problem. But you decided that for her and never gave her the chance.

 

While agree with you there were marital issues that contributed to your cheating....cheating was not the correct answer. TALKING about it was. and i understand that your wife accepts responsibility for denying you sex. But she is absolutely not responsible for the choice you made to cheat.

 

Wedding vows do not include " I promise to screw you everyday"...your wife broke no vow. and even now that your marriage is perfect...and the two of you are in agreement that your infidelity is her fault....you have said you have sex once a month. Is that what this is all about? You had an affair because all you wanted was for your wife to screw you once a month?

 

I confess...you baffle me.

[NTV]

 

It is rare that a normal spouse has an affair for absolutely no reason.

 

 

 

Can you define 'normal spouse'?

[ShatteredLady]

I'm sorry Mrs Adams that's not strictly true. When Liam first came to this site he was very vocal about how much pain he'd caused his wife, how it was the worst mistake of his life & how he learnt that his wife needed to be romanced.

 

Maybe therapy has changed the way he now view things.

[wmacbride]

there is no valid reason to have an affair. Period.

 

There may be excuses....there may be conditions....there may be circumstances....but absolutely none of them are a valid reason to have an affair.

 

NONE...

 

Especially if we as waywards make the decision to cheat without first asking our spouse if it is ok.

 

Liam,

 

I do not doubt that your marriage is better after your affair. My marriage is better since my affair too....the difference between us is that you say your affair is better BECAUSE of the affair...and I say it is better IN SPITE of the affair. The reason our marriages are better is because we became more aware of the issues and have worked hard to overcome those issues....by talking about them...and reading books...and going to therapy. But the act of having sex with a person other than our spouse is not what saved our marriages. You give the credit to the affair and i give the credit to the time and effort we have put forth.

 

You say your wife abandoned you because she withheld sex from you....yet not one time have I ever heard you say that you went to therapy or to the doctor or tried in any way to figure out why she withheld.

 

Instead ...you took on lovers....but not once have i ever heard you say you asked her how she felt about that. You did not give her a chance to voice her opinion.

 

Yet now you say...your affairs saved your marriage because she is now willing to work on the problems. Perhaps if you had told her you were going to take on a lover...she may have been willing to work on the problem. But you decided that for her and never gave her the chance.

 

While agree with you there were marital issues that contributed to your cheating....cheating was not the correct answer. TALKING about it was. and i understand that your wife accepts responsibility for denying you sex. But she is absolutely not responsible for the choice you made to cheat.

 

Wedding vows do not include " I promise to screw you everyday"...your wife broke no vow. and even now that your marriage is perfect...and the two of you are in agreement that your infidelity is her fault....you have said you have sex once a month. Is that what this is all about? You had an affair because all you wanted was for your wife to screw you once a month?

 

I confess...you baffle me.

 

It si this type of ws that I could never trust.

A person who holds no accountability for his actions, who blames everything else on the other people in his or her life and who says " it's not my fault because my bs did x, y or z" is someone who has learned nothing and could be at a high risk of cheating again.

 

I'm not trying to speak for you, but it does sound like, in your marriage, after the A, you basically followed the idea that while there may have been issues in your M, you made the choice to handle it baldy by having an A. In the aftermath, you both put in the effort to find better ways of handling problems, and while there may ave been a few stumbles, you both were able to forge ahead.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'm sorry Mrs Adams that's not strictly true. When Liam first came to this site he was very vocal about how much pain he'd caused his wife, how it was the worst mistake of his life & how he learnt that his wife needed to be romanced.

 

Maybe therapy has changed the way he now view things.

 

I know when he first came he liked everything i said...and now he has me blocked so he cannot see anything i say.

 

So something has certainly changed....and we do grow and change....but I cannot imagine how a therapist would change your mindset in this manner. Most therapists try to help their patients accept blame for their infidelity...not encourage them to blame shift it to their spouse.

[Whoknew30]

You're right, there's lots of reasons a WS might cheat - selfishness, self-centeredness, poor communication skills, conflict avoidance, narcissistic, needy, inconsiderate, disrespectful.

 

Did I leave any out ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Agreed but I get Liam's point...spouses can have that behavior & not cheat. Like withholding sex with no medical condition, that's narcissistic but that isn't looked at as bad as an actual A, which IMO is just as bad bc you're blatantly ignoring your spouses needs & not caring. That's just an example of certain things society doesn't make a big deal of, that within a marriage is a big deal. A aren't the only way to conduct any of the behaviors you mentioned & then if a spouse that experiences any of those behaviors cheats, they're the bad guy.

[Whoknew30]

there is no valid reason to have an affair. Period.

 

There may be excuses....there may be conditions....there may be circumstances....but absolutely none of them are a valid reason to have an affair.

 

NONE...

 

Especially if we as waywards make the decision to cheat without first asking our spouse if it is ok.

 

Liam,

 

I do not doubt that your marriage is better after your affair. My marriage is better since my affair too....the difference between us is that you say your affair is better BECAUSE of the affair...and I say it is better IN SPITE of the affair. The reason our marriages are better is because we became more aware of the issues and have worked hard to overcome those issues....by talking about them...and reading books...and going to therapy. But the act of having sex with a person other than our spouse is not what saved our marriages. You give the credit to the affair and i give the credit to the time and effort we have put forth.

 

You say your wife abandoned you because she withheld sex from you....yet not one time have I ever heard you say that you went to therapy or to the doctor or tried in any way to figure out why she withheld.

 

Instead ...you took on lovers....but not once have i ever heard you say you asked her how she felt about that. You did not give her a chance to voice her opinion.

 

Yet now you say...your affairs saved your marriage because she is now willing to work on the problems. Perhaps if you had told her you were going to take on a lover...she may have been willing to work on the problem. But you decided that for her and never gave her the chance.

 

While agree with you there were marital issues that contributed to your cheating....cheating was not the correct answer. TALKING about it was. and i understand that your wife accepts responsibility for denying you sex. But she is absolutely not responsible for the choice you made to cheat.

 

Wedding vows do not include " I promise to screw you everyday"...your wife broke no vow. and even now that your marriage is perfect...and the two of you are in agreement that your infidelity is her fault....you have said you have sex once a month. Is that what this is all about? You had an affair because all you wanted was for your wife to screw you once a month?

 

I confess...you baffle me.

 

 

Mrs. J.A, the bible does mention denying sex is wrong in a marriage also, several times. I agree with you on many points but yes denial of spouses is mentioned & it says your spouse both man & woman are to have complete control over the other's body. Now do I agree with that, no!..but it doesn't make it not true. I'm a Christian & have taught Sunday for over 10 years & I've learned anyone can pick anything out of the bible to make a case for themselves. I believe in the father/the son/ & the Holy Spirit whole heartedly but some of the writings are majorly open for interpretation.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Agreed but I get Liam's point...spouses can have that behavior & not cheat. Like withholding sex with no medical condition, that's narcissistic but that isn't looked at as bad as an actual A, which IMO is just as bad bc you're blatantly ignoring your spouses needs & not caring. That's just an example of certain things society doesn't make a big deal of, that within a marriage is a big deal. A aren't the only way to conduct any of the behaviors you mentioned & then if a spouse that experiences any of those behaviors cheats, they're the bad guy.

 

regardless of the "issues" within the marriage...adultery is not an acceptable option...and it certainly is not the BEST option.

 

We all have issues of some kind or other....and we vow to accept those "issues" when we marry. We do not however agree to accept infidelity....

 

at least John and I did not say in our vows...I promise to stay married to you even if you screw around. We did however say...I promise to be faithful and keep myself only unto you.

 

If I have narcissitic issues, and i don't put out....then we have the opportunity to fix those issues together by medication and therapists and doctors.

 

When we choose infidelity....we choose to "fix" our issues without the help and knowledge of our spouse.

 

Marriage is a partnership...and the two shall become as one.

 

When I chose to have lunch with another man...I made that decision that has affected the rest of our lives without any input from my husband. I was the "bad guy".

[Liam1]

You're right, there's lots of reasons a WS might cheat - selfishness, self-centeredness, poor communication skills, conflict avoidance, narcissistic, needy, inconsiderate, disrespectful.

 

Did I leave any out ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

And those same descriptions apply to someone who believes that their spouse cheated without their being some heavy duty problems in the marriage.

 

An intelligent person realizes it takes two to make a marriage work, and two to harm it.

 

For example if a spouse cheats and the other has a revenge affair. Is the spouse who cheated first within their rights to blame the spouse who had the revenge affair and to label them as selfish and immature.

 

I think not. I think it might be a normal reaction to a distressing situation.

 

In US society, 90 percent of people say infidelity is wrong, yet MCs say that almost 80 percent of people do have affairs, if there is opportunity.

 

Do you know that there are actually people who insist they would NEVER have an affair, under any circumstances.

 

Yet, those same people go on to have an affair, if the opportunity arises.

[Raena]

Yes. This is true but apparently if I can't recall the exact thread and quote the comment from two years ago it's not real.

 

I've seen it... not necessarily on your posts, but I have seen people make pretty extreme comments about cheaters on this site. I know I've made a few of them myself when I was in my angry and hurting stage. It's not uncommon to respond in anger to infidelity. A person goes through the same stages of grief as you do when you lose a loved one to a fatality. I know some might not agree that it's that extreme, but I know it is for myself. I've felt it all.... disbelief, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance. When in that anger stage, it's hard NOT to respond with extremes. Someone mentioned projection... I agree with that. It happens often on here. I know when I respond to a post I do so from MY point of view... and that point of view has changed over time.

 

Do I equate infidelity with pedophilia? No. But do I think someone who lies and cheats repeatedly to be morally corrupt... absolutely. I've read posts on here of people who are just so lacking in remorse for their actions and will plainly state that. They don't care who they've hurt, at all. That kind of selfishness is disgusting in my opinion. But it's just my opinion. Coming on here and telling your story opens the door for you to hear points of view that you don't like, don't agree with or don't want to hear.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs. J.A, the bible does mention denying sex is wrong in a marriage also, several times. I agree with you on many points but yes denial of spouses is mentioned & it says your spouse both man & woman are to have complete control over the other's body. Now do I agree with that, no!..but it doesn't make it not true. I'm a Christian & have taught Sunday for over 10 years & I've learned anyone can pick anything out of the bible to make a case for themselves. I believe in the father/the son/ & the Holy Spirit whole heartedly but some of the writings are majorly open for interpretation.

 

 

 

In 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 Paul advises, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

 

this means that neither partner in a marriage has a right to deny sex with the other, except if they both make a mutual agreement to abstain for a specified period of time for prayer and fasting. The REAL kicker here is that the couple...DISCUSS it. Not just go get a little sex on the side.

 

Jesus said the only reason for divorce was adultery....(Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:3-12; Mark 10:2-12). This would specifically not include failure to have sex.

 

So...if your spouse denies you sex...you cannot commit adultery and if you do your spouse has every right to divorce you....however...you do not have the right to divorce your spouse if they deny you sex. See how that works?

[Mrs. John Adams]

And those same descriptions apply to someone who believes that their spouse cheated without their being some heavy duty problems in the marriage.

 

An intelligent person realizes it takes two to make a marriage work, and two to harm it.

 

For example if a spouse cheats and the other has a revenge affair. Is the spouse who cheated first within their rights to blame the spouse who had the revenge affair and to label them as selfish and immature.

 

I think not. I think it might be a normal reaction to a distressing situation.

 

In US society, 90 percent of people say infidelity is wrong, yet MCs say that almost 80 percent of people do have affairs, if there is opportunity.

 

Do you know that there are actually people who insist they would NEVER have an affair, under any circumstances.

 

Yet, those same people go on to have an affair, if the opportunity arises.

 

 

Yes...and I was one of those people....and your point is?

[Liam1]

Agreed but I get Liam's point...spouses can have that behavior & not cheat. Like withholding sex with no medical condition, that's narcissistic but that isn't looked at as bad as an actual A, which IMO is just as bad bc you're blatantly ignoring your spouses needs & not caring.

 

That's just an example of certain things society doesn't make a big deal of, that within a marriage is a big deal. A aren't the only way to conduct any of the behaviors you mentioned & then if a spouse that experiences any of those behaviors cheats, they're the bad guy.

 

Also, let's add another dimension to the discussion: Perhaps whether or not a person is devastated by cheating is a generational thing.

 

Millennials grew up in the age of hook ups and friends with benefits

 

The millennials in general seem far more capable of separating sex from love, than do older folk.

 

Perhaps separating sex from love and choosing to not divorce due to a sexual affair is actually the more mature attitude.

[Sub]

For example if a spouse cheats and the other has a revenge affair. Is the spouse who cheated first within their rights to blame the spouse who had the revenge affair and to label them as selfish and immature.

 

Yes, definitely. If I chose to have a revenge A after my W's A, I am solely responsible for that decision. I could have dealt with her infidelity in a variety of ways. All of them being my responsibility, including an A. Whether it's a normal reaction or not is besides the point. It was my reaction and I would be to blame if it hurt her, affected my family, etc. I could have chosen healthier ways to deal with it. I CHOSE - without her - what to do with my own pain by potentially causing more. Her infidelity doesn't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want with it and be immune to blame for it.

[Whoknew30]

regardless of the "issues" within the marriage...adultery is not an acceptable option...and it certainly is not the BEST option.

 

We all have issues of some kind or other....and we vow to accept those "issues" when we marry. We do not however agree to accept infidelity....

 

at least John and I did not say in our vows...I promise to stay married to you even if you screw around. We did however say...I promise to be faithful and keep myself only unto you.

 

If I have narcissitic issues, and i don't put out....then we have the opportunity to fix those issues together by medication and therapists and doctors.

 

When we choose infidelity....we choose to "fix" our issues without the help and knowledge of our spouse.

 

Marriage is a partnership...and the two shall become as one.

 

When I chose to have lunch with another man...I made that decision that has affected the rest of our lives without any input from my husband. I was the "bad guy".

 

 

I don't think cheating is right at all. I'm just saying in the bible there are many examples of what wrong is & if someone won't go get help for a bad behavior than they are being just as selfish & narcissistic as someone that would cheat...IMO wrong is wrong & if you're to the point where a spouse is thinking of divorce bc one won't stop behavior that is affecting their marriage, that's just as bad as cheating. My H emotionally abandoning me at my lowest point in life was worse than any infidelity he could commit. Did it give me a good reason to cheat no but at that point his behavior definitely had a part of me no longer caring about his feelings & or our marriage but technically he didn't do anything "wrong" & if I had just filed for divorce, I would have been looked at like I was a jerk & we went to counseling but he wouldn't change until I cheated. Filling for divorce never worked. Sometimes true hurt can really change things. I felt bad for hurting him but I don't regret it bc that's what got my marriage to change. I regret I become something I didn't believe in & the fact I allowed hurt to transform me but I learned from it & now I'm a better more knowledge person from it all. Also after it all I finally got him into church, something he never did before & something that wouldn't have happened if the A didn't occur.

[Whoknew30]

In 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 Paul advises, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

 

this means that neither partner in a marriage has a right to deny sex with the other, except if they both make a mutual agreement to abstain for a specified period of time for prayer and fasting. The REAL kicker here is that the couple...DISCUSS it. Not just go get a little sex on the side.

 

Jesus said the only reason for divorce was adultery....(Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:3-12; Mark 10:2-12). This would specifically not include failure to have sex.

 

So...if your spouse denies you sex...you cannot commit adultery and if you do your spouse has every right to divorce you....however...you do not have the right to divorce your spouse if they deny you sex. See how that works?

 

 

Once again open to interpretation. That was my point, I can go through & find a verses saying pretty much anything I want to turn into my direction. I won't though bc I don't agree with everything in the bible. Bible was written by man, not god himself & how many people use it for bigotry & hate? It has many great teachings of course but it's still a book that was writing by man & there are many books that were written that the church won't allow to be seen.

[ladydesigner]

I repeat if infidelity occurred first and the divorce is the result of the infidelity... The marriage contract was already broken.

 

Bingo Mrs. Adams! Why do people insist on twisting this? In my case I should have cheated because my needs weren't being met and I honestly feel that if a person has to resort to cheating they should have divorced to begin with.

[ladydesigner]

Also, let's add another dimension to the discussion: Perhaps whether or not a person is devastated by cheating is a generational thing.

 

Millennials grew up in the age of hook ups and friends with benefits

 

The millennials in general seem far more capable of separating sex from love, than do older folk.

 

Perhaps separating sex from love and choosing to not divorce due to a sexual affair is actually the more mature attitude.

 

See for me the sex part is the least of my concerns. It is the lying and living a double life, getting emotinally involved with the other person. That is a character flaw to me someone that is able to gaslight and be okay with it.

[Liam1]

but at that point his behavior definitely had a part of me no longer caring about his feelings & or our marriage but technically he didn't do anything "wrong" & if I had just filed for divorce, I would have been looked at like I was a jerk & we went to counseling but he wouldn't change until I cheated.

 

Filling for divorce never worked. Sometimes true hurt can really change things. I felt bad for hurting him but I don't regret it bc that's what got my marriage to change.

 

I agree, wholeheartedly.

 

I have said this umpteen time......My affair saved my marriage. No doubt about it.

 

My wife herself said that had I simply filed for divorce, she would have been far more hurt because that meant I wanted to end the marriage.

 

She herself said that would have been more difficult to recovering from a divorce than an affair.

 

Having an affair, showed her I still wanted to be with her.

 

It really would have been easier for me to divorce her and to move on than to work on the marriage. She knows that.

 

She only agreed to work on the marriage when faced with the affair. Before that, like your husband she simply refused.

 

It was a wake up call to stop neglecting the marriage.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think cheating is right at all. I'm just saying in the bible there are many examples of what wrong is & if someone won't go get help for a bad behavior than they are being just as selfish & narcissistic as someone that would cheat...IMO wrong is wrong & if you're to the point where a spouse is thinking of divorce bc one won't stop behavior that is affecting their marriage, that's just as bad as cheating. My H emotionally abandoning me at my lowest point in life was worse than any infidelity he could commit. Did it give me a good reason to cheat no but at that point his behavior definitely had a part of me no longer caring about his feelings & or our marriage but technically he didn't do anything "wrong" & if I had just filed for divorce, I would have been looked at like I was a jerk & we went to counseling but he wouldn't change until I cheated. Filling for divorce never worked. Sometimes true hurt can really change things. I felt bad for hurting him but I don't regret it bc that's what got my marriage to change. I regret I become something I didn't believe in & the fact I allowed hurt to transform me but I learned from it & now I'm a better more knowledge person from it all. Also after it all I finally got him into church, something he never did before & something that wouldn't have happened if the A didn't occur.