Infidelity - forgiveness - not something I ask for

[RecentChange]

Wow. I don't know if it's helpful, but let me ask you a question. If you are forgiven, what changes? I mean are colors brighter? To you lose ten lbs? Are your teeth easier to clean? Will music be better?

 

 

Of course not. But what I'm getting at is what is the ACTUAL impact of forgiving someone? of forgiving yourself?

 

 

What are you expecting to occur?

 

Hum, good point.

 

Well - I can only come from my perspective, which did not include asking for forgiveness, or having to endure a long period of time "unforgiven". He decided quite quickly that he forgave me. In that he understood, no, more like accepted the "Whys" even though it didn't diminish the reality.

 

I think if he said "I can never forgive you" or was still trying to punish me for this somehow - I would probably be in a very different place mentally.

 

Less hopeful for sure, sadder, perhaps even guiltier.

 

So, by offering forgiveness, I feel like he has gifted me with hope, opportunity and in some ways relief.

 

It reminds me of when I scold my dog, and he pouts because now he is a "bad dog" and eventually I say, ahh, it's okay buddy, come here - and he is SO delighted to be accepted back.

 

Dogs don't think "oh but I am still a bad dog that got into the garbage".

 

So while in some ways I am thrilled to be back with my tail wagging - unlike the dog, I know it's not the end of it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Okay, so let's assume that. Then how would the three words 'I forgive you." Release a massive burden so easily? You would think that massive guilt would be something you had to work through over time, right?

 

and quite honestly...words don't men a whole lot...because you can say anything. It is the attitude...the action that causes reaction.

 

My remorse "allowed" John to forgive me. He was afraid to forgive...because that made him vulnerable should I betray him again.

 

Once I understood remorse ( not just being sorry)...he was able to wholly forgive me. We are not talking about trust...we are talking about forgiveness.

 

It is a process....and Jen is right...baby steps toward healing.

 

There are several Betrayed spouses here who have said that they have been able to forgive their wayward wives even though they divorced....not for the wives sake...but for their own.

[minimariah]

Recent!

 

sending you many virtual hugs & good vibes. you're doing REALLY well and i am really glad to see it!

[Just a Guy]

Hi RC, it's been sometime since I saw you start a thread. That may be because I myself haven't been on this forum for awhile. I was wondering what DDay you are talking about. The last thread that I remember reading was where you had three hot encounters with Mr. Smell Good in the space of a week, while his wife was away on business. If I remember correctly, you were not burdened by guilt because in your words you are able to seperate sex from love and the former is something as inconsequential for you as shaking hands with some one or having a cup of coffee. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any count. So I assume your D Day must involve some other incidence where your partner discovered things and had a showdown with you. Again please correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, coming to the subject of forgiveness what I have gathered from reading on this forum and elsewhere is that it is something cathartic for the Forgiver rather than the Forgiven. This is probably because as human beings we continue to agonize on something that someone has done to us which we feel has wronged us or has been detrimental to our well being and interests. If we keep fruitlessly agonizing about this we end up harming ourselves as far as our peace of mind and personal happiness is concerned. Forgiveness is a neat psychological trick which enables us to stop this process of agonizing fruitlessly and move on to more positive things. It is a tool for positivity. Yes, the person forgiven also benefits in that if he or she has been carrying a burden of guilt for having wronged the Forgiver then that burden starts to reduce. As Jen has said the first baby steps in the process have been taken. However, the person forgiven has to also forgive himself or herself, for the burden of guilt to actually start to diminish. As I said, forgiveness is a tool for positivity, that is, it helps release us from the heavy burden of negativity that we ourselves place on ourselves. Hope this helps. Cheers!

Edited May 20, 2016 by Just a Guy

[NTV]

Assuming the words are genuine, it's a beginning. Baby steps. Have you ever been forgiven or forgiven someone for sth major? The relief in just that moment of saying it alone can be palpable.

 

But forgiveness goes hand in hand with atonement and making amends, right? Without those other pieces, doesn't it change from forgiveness to mercy?

[NTV]

Hum, good point.

 

Well - I can only come from my perspective, which did not include asking for forgiveness, or having to endure a long period of time "unforgiven". He decided quite quickly that he forgave me. In that he understood, no, more like accepted the "Whys" even though it didn't diminish the reality.

 

 

 

He knows you better than I, as my ww and I know each other better... maybe he knew how close you were to giving up on him without it.

 

 

My ww, she knows that I am not the man to forgive lightly or without seeing that it is meant with actions. I'm also not the man that can offer it freely. It must be asked for.

 

 

Without asking for it, I would never forgive. And my ww hasn't asked for it because she knows I don't believe her actions have shown the changes she needs to make internally (i.e. prioritizing family, reducing self-centeredness, etc.). Oh, yes she's made progress and I recognize her for it, but I feel like for the forgiveness to mean what it really should mean, then it must be earned.

 

 

No, I'm not holding it like a carrot either, it isn't discussed openly, and the only time I've mentioned it is when I told her 2 days after dday that I forgave her for all the other wrongs in the marriage but the cheating. (and there were a lot).

 

 

my 2 cents anyway

[Liam1]

RecentChange, I did not realize he cheated first. That does change things a bit.

 

Yes. I agree. It changes things a lot.

 

I think they both need to focus on their relationship in the here and now, forgive each other, forgive themselves, and move on.

 

The most important thing to focus on is their relationship as it exists, today.

[NTV]

'course I forgot to add that in my sitch I haven't cheated, so I don't have the additional web on top of it.

[RecentChange]

Hi RC, it's been sometime since I saw you start a thread. That may be because I myself haven't been on this forum for awhile. I was wondering what DDay you are talking about. The last thread that I remember reading was where you had three hot encounters with Mr. Smell Good in the space of a week, while his wife was away on business. If I remember correctly, you were not burdened by guilt because in your words you are able to seperate sex from love and the former is something as inconsequential for you as shaking hands with some one or having a cup of coffee. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any count. So I assume your D Day must involve some other incidence where your partner discovered things and had a showdown with you. Again please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Ahh yeah, I don't make a habit of starting threads about myself - and yes, you are correct about the original situation. Perhaps predictably things did not end there. I don't really want to share every detail, but "Mr. Smells Good" didn't end things permanently, and either did I. It did not turn into some sort of emotional love affair as some LS'ers predicted. We stopped sitting together, but, about once a month he would come find me, with a predictable outcome.

 

My guy had reasons to snoop - found "Mr. Smells Good" card (oh that little card I held onto) - and the truth came out. The rest of it, my compartmentalization - and my partner's awareness of that are all still true - and played into his reaction. He knows I didn't "love" this guy, and that I just used him for sex.

 

Its the dishonestly and the aftermath that causes my guilt today, not really the sex.

 

Anyway, coming to the subject of forgiveness what I have gathered from reading on this forum and elsewhere is that it is something cathartic for the Forgiver rather than the Forgiven. This is probably because as human beings we continue to agonize on something that someone has done to us which we feel has wronged us or has been detrimental to our well being and interests. If we keep fruitlessly agonizing about this we end up harming ourselves as far as our peace of mind and personal happiness is concerned. Forgiveness is a neat psychological trick which enables us to stop this process of agonizing fruitlessly and move on to more positive things. It is a tool for positivity. Yes, the person forgiven also benefits in that if he or she has been carrying a burden of guilt for having wronged the Forgiver then that burden starts to reduce. As Jen has said the first baby steps in the process have been taken. However, the person forgiven has to also forgive himself or herself, for the burden of guilt to actually start to diminish. As I said, forgiveness is a tool for positivity, that is, it helps release us from the heavy burden of negativity that we ourselves place on ourselves. Hope this helps. Cheers!

 

Fabulous advice.

 

I know there will be many more ups and downs to come - but this week, oh its been a fantastic week Been spending a lot of time together, really enjoying each other. In some ways, this feels like an exciting time, where we are learning more about each other.

 

Oh and I haven't gotten any sleep all week! :bunny:

[RecentChange]

Yes. I agree. It changes things a lot.

 

I think they both need to focus on their relationship in the here and now, forgive each other, forgive themselves, and move on.

 

The most important thing to focus on is their relationship as it exists, today.

 

We are - I am working on the forgiving myself part. This thread helped! Seeing him as happy as I have seen him this week helped as well.

 

As for the "him first" thing - I never brought it up, but he did very quickly on D day. And added that he "always knew this day would come". I told him that it wasn't about revenge, all the reasons etc are different - but like I said in my original thread Justaguy hinted at - I felt like it gave me a license, that if we could work though *that* we could work though this - hence my taking such a risk.

 

And I suppose all of that plays into the sort of outcome we are at now.

[katielee]

 

I think they both need to focus on their relationship in the here and now, forgive each other, forgive themselves, and move on.

 

The most important thing to focus on is their relationship as it exists, today.

 

I actually disagree with this advice. You both need to figure out WHY you chose affair to deal with pain. What happens the next time a crisis occurs? What pain coping mechanism will you reach for? Why affair? Why not alcohol? drugs? Why do you need validation from external sources?

If you don't figure this out you're rugsweeping. You both having done it doesn't make you even or solve anything. It just means more introspective work needs to be done.

[RecentChange]

While I agree that it was a poor coping mechanism, my cheating was not a lashing out in response to pain.

 

Reasons are complex, and have been examined, acknowledged, and we are working on them.

[katielee]

External validation? Feel unappreciated? The reasons ppl have affairs aren't really complex. It's fairly standard.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I will confess...I did not read your other threads...and had no idea that this relationship was this complicated.

 

Only you and your partner know the real dynamics of this relationship

 

I am wondering if the two of you consider this to be an open relationship since infidelity seems to be quite prominent and neither one seems to really care.

 

I am not sure there is really anything to forgive for either of you...if you both accept screwing other people as part of the relationship.

 

You say your partner forgives you...but for what? and for which infidelity?

 

You feel no guilt for betraying your partner numerous times with several different people....so I guess my question is this...if you have an open relationship...then there is no forgiveness required or needed. If you are not in an open relationship....what is it that keeps you with your partner? and what is it within you that allows yourself to repeat the infidelity over and over again? and do you want to change or are you satisfied with things exactly the way they are?

[understand50]

In another thread, another poster mentioned "How to Help Your Spouse Heal" by L. McDonald.

 

An interesting read - as a "wandering spouse" I feel I have made a lot of the right moves since D Day (no doubt facilitated by reading a bunch on LS before that day hit).

 

We (spouse and I) are working through it. The damage is undeniable, but as long as he lets me, I am willing to put in the work to make it right. So far, so good. We are discussing things that should have been talked about years ago, and in many ways this experience has brought us closer, and made our bond stronger.

 

That said - one thing that stands out for me is forgiveness. McDonald's booklet talks about when to ask for forgiveness - my spouse has stated that "he forgives me".

 

I know what I did was wrong. I am not seeking forgiveness, it's not something I would ask for. Somethings can't be forgiven - in my mind at least. I seek his healing, I seek perhaps his acceptance of me, but I do not expect forgiveness.

 

When he says that he forgives me - I tell him no, you can't, at least not this soon (it's been months, not years since D Day). That I recognize that he WANTS to forgive me, and perhaps in years he can - but for now - just let me try to make things right, and please, do not worry about forgiving me (I got a smile and a laugh out of him during an emotional talk - in which I told him, oh honey, it's too soon, give me, give me 6 years, and maybe then I can make it up to you so that you really can forgive me).

 

As I write this out - another angle has come to me. The role of forgiveness for the forgiver..... I suppose it's a head place he would rather be. For me, now at least, it's not one I seek nor think I deserve.

 

Thoughts? Forgiveness and its role in recovering from infidelity?

 

RecentChange,

 

In reading your first post, it looks to me that you are not will to accept the "forgiveness" of your husband, as you feel you have more work to do on yourself and the marriage. You feel you have more to make up for. Actually, I think you are the right track for a "good" reconciliation. In this thread, there has been lots of talk about "forgiveness" and that is good. I think forgiveness goes hand in hand with remorse. Forgiveness is not a blanket get out of jail card, for past transgressions, it is just acknowledgment that the one that was wronged will not hold this against you. The fact is is not forgotten, nor should it stop the work that is required from both sides. Showing remorse, having your actions show that you are committed to being faithful going forward, and living as a good spouse, partner and lover, going forward, is the best response to his "forgiveness"

 

I think you have accepted his "forgiveness", what you are saying is that his forgiveness does not release you from consequences of your actions, or working on the marriage, and showing that you understand what you did and your are remorseful for your actions. All in all, you are doing well to try and make up for what you did, and that is all any BS can ask from a WS.

 

I wish you luck.......

[jen1447]

But forgiveness goes hand in hand with atonement and making amends, right? Without those other pieces, doesn't it change from forgiveness to mercy?

 

That would be strings-attached forgiveness - not sure I'd really consider that forgiveness, more like a negotiation. I think the genuine article is given w/no expectation of personal benefit. Which isn't to say that in the context of a relationship you'd hope to put the issues behind you, but that's not the impetus of 'pure' forgiveness.

[Whoknew30]

I will confess...I did not read your other threads...and had no idea that this relationship was this complicated.

 

Only you and your partner know the real dynamics of this relationship

 

I am wondering if the two of you consider this to be an open relationship since infidelity seems to be quite prominent and neither one seems to really care.

 

I am not sure there is really anything to forgive for either of you...if you both accept screwing other people as part of the relationship.

 

You say your partner forgives you...but for what? and for which infidelity?

 

You feel no guilt for betraying your partner numerous times with several different people....so I guess my question is this...if you have an open relationship...then there is no forgiveness required or needed. If you are not in an open relationship....what is it that keeps you with your partner? and what is it within you that allows yourself to repeat the infidelity over and over again? and do you want to change or are you satisfied with things exactly the way they are?

 

I see it a little bit differently. Sometimes people that have issues end up together bc deep down even know they may not understand each other's actual behavior, they understand each other as a whole. So they're willing to forgive certain behaviors bc they see the bigger picture as a couple.

 

Every couple reconciles differently. You & your husband did it your way & it worked out (which is wonderful) but your way would have never worked for me or my H & ours wouldn't have worked for you guy's. My parents way of reconciliation wouldn't have worked for me either, yet they're extremely happy & content now to the point my mom laughs at some of my dad's stupid indiscretions from years ago. We don't know what others life experiences were & how that's molded them & what issues they have from those experiences to why they are willing to forgive or to why they continue certain behaviors. Hopefully they can figure themselves out together.

 

Not everyone only cheats once, there are many that do it multiple times but it's bc they have some kind of issue they themselves haven't figured out yet. I personally couldn't live that way but my parents did & even though young it drive me crazy, in the end it worked out. The older I became I see now that my mom saw the bigger picture in my dad & helped him become better (took years) & maybe this couple can do the same for each other .

[Mrs. John Adams]

Whoknew30

 

I agree everyone has to do it their way... I did not think I was saying she needed to do it my way... I was asking questions about her situation.

 

John and I are certainly not poster children for reconciliation... We did way too many things wrong.

 

I am trying to wrap my head around where recent change is coming from.. I have not read her other threads. I was basing my remarks on this thread only.. Others have referenced things she has said on other threads... Which brought to light more of her situation.. Which is why I asked my questions

[Whoknew30]

Whoknew30

 

I agree everyone has to do it their way... I did not think I was saying she needed to do it my way... I was asking questions about her situation.

 

John and I are certainly not poster children for reconciliation... We did way too many things wrong.

 

I am trying to wrap my head around where recent change is coming from.. I have not read her other threads. I was basing my remarks on this thread only.. Others have referenced things she has said on other threads... Which brought to light more of her situation.. Which is why I asked my questions

 

Mrs J.A...I don't think there is a wrong or right, if it works for you...unless it's false reconciliation, which means still major lying from one person. I didn't think you were saying that anyone had to do it your way...I just meant sometimes people make the same bad choice multiple times before it hits them personally. You only did it once & learned...even though I had only one A partner I met up with him many times before I learned my lesson & the guilt kicked in. Guilt is also a personal thing & it can in at different times for different people. You have those that feel guilt immediately or not feel it until they see their partners face & it becomes "real" like the light bulb moment. I myself felt numb about everything until I saw my husband's face...then the guilt hit.

[AlwaysGrowing]

That would be strings-attached forgiveness - not sure I'd really consider that forgiveness, more like a negotiation. I think the genuine article is given w/no expectation of personal benefit. Which isn't to say that in the context of a relationship you'd hope to put the issues behind you, but that's not the impetus of 'pure' forgiveness.

 

 

Pure forgiveness.....though I believe that that exists....I do not believe that that is the only form.

 

For myself..the example you gave would be cheap forgiveness...forgiveness given cheaply might "save" the relationship as it is now...however it costs someone their safety and integrity.

 

Genuine forgiveness requires the offending party to earn it. It means more when both parties are buying into the forgiveness. It heals the wounds.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs J.A...I don't think there is a wrong or right, if it works for you...unless it's false reconciliation, which means still major lying from one person. I didn't think you were saying that anyone had to do it your way...I just meant sometimes people make the same bad choice multiple times before it hits them personally. You only did it once & learned...even though I had only one A partner I met up with him many times before I learned my lesson & the guilt kicked in. Guilt is also a personal thing & it can in at different times for different people. You have those that feel guilt immediately or not feel it until they see their partners face & it becomes "real" like the light bulb moment. I myself felt numb about everything until I saw my husband's face...then the guilt hit.

 

yes...I agree...what works for you is what is best....

 

like i said I am just trying to understand where she is coming from...

 

Every infidelity is different because we are all different people...while we may have similarities in our stories...no two are alike.

[jen1447]

Pure forgiveness.....though I believe that that exists....I do not believe that that is the only form.

 

For myself..the example you gave would be cheap forgiveness...forgiveness given cheaply might "save" the relationship as it is now...however it costs someone their safety and integrity.

 

Genuine forgiveness requires the offending party to earn it. It means more when both parties are buying into the forgiveness. It heals the wounds.

 

"Buying into" it implies an investment akin to a financial transaction, which itself implies some notion of personal gain or profit, which to me invalidates the very concept of forgiveness. If you're investing in your relationship future, fine, but it's different than simply clearing the slate out of the goodness of your heart and without hope of remuneration.

[NTV]

"Buying into" it implies an investment akin to a financial transaction, which itself implies some notion of personal gain or profit, which to me invalidates the very concept of forgiveness. If you're investing in your relationship future, fine, but it's different than simply clearing the slate out of the goodness of your heart and without hope of remuneration.

 

 

 

But the whole basis of forgiveness assumes there is a debt to begin with. Whatever transgression caused the debt.

 

 

Let me ask a different way. what's the difference in your mind between 'pure forgiveness' and 'mercy'?

[jen1447]

But the whole basis of forgiveness assumes there is a debt to begin with. Whatever transgression caused the debt.

 

 

Let me ask a different way. what's the difference in your mind between 'pure forgiveness' and 'mercy'?

 

You seem to be edging into esoteric philosophy territory here and I'm not real inclined toward that. I'm more practical.

 

I don't really accept your premise of debt - it's just a misdeed. I don't see the need to attach any random monetary assets or liabilities.

[AlwaysGrowing]

You seem to be edging into esoteric philosophy territory here and I'm not real inclined toward that. I'm more practical.

 

I don't really accept your premise of debt - it's just a misdeed. I don't see the need to attach any random monetary assets or liabilities.

 

 

Infidelity/betrayal is not merely a misdeed. It strikes at the very foundation of a relationship.....all relationships....personal, work and business. Heck, most nations execute those that are found guilty of treason.

 

To forgive infidelity...comes at a great cost for a BS.

 

For those BS that decide to divorce and move on, yes, I see the type of forgiveness that you speak of, being attainable.....they are no longer invested and do not have the offending party in their life....so it is much easier to forgive as the risk of it happening again is about zero.

 

For those BS that R, forgiveness that actual takes hold and is not held against the WS...being earned is the way to go. A WS during R should be stepping up to the plate showing that they can be trusted...that they are growing.

 

I just don't see how something as foundational as trust is not earned in a relationship. Is it common to give a first date your PIN and sign over the deed to your house?

 

Infidelity shatters trust.....being that trust is earned...how practical is it to expect a BS to forgive that breach before the WS has shown that they value it?