Who has worst end of deal??

[AlwaysGrowing]

My recent queries have come from a conversation with a friend who is a WW. as a single OW we have conflicting views of who has worst deal.

 

Obviously, before anyone says it, the BS does so that aside who has worst end of it.

 

This isn't by any means a woe is me specific query, more in general and I wondered what others opinions were....

 

Mine is the single affair partner!

 

During the affair we Watch the WS live and continue to build a life with someone else. The WS during the affair no doubt has struggles but also has the best of both worlds

 

After the affair we lose someone we love and watch the WS continue with their life as if nothing happened The WS loses a part of their life but keeps their preferred choice and can return to the marriage as though nothing happened (this is presuming no dday)

 

My WW friend believes it's the contrary... The WS has to deal with the emotions of during and after the in front of their spouse whilst maintaining a normal front... They have the covering up and stress to deal with and they have to think of the AP being single and free, able to move on at any moment!

 

Whilst I think the Single AP has the worst deal I also think we get the better side too!

 

Any differing opinions/views??

 

It depends on the individual.

 

As we can all read there are some WS and AP that have little to no empathy for others and have what appears to be an unhealthy over inflated sense of self. Every nuance of the affair was to serve a sense of importance over someone else.

 

Then there are those WS and AP...for which the affair went against who they believed themselves to be and how they want to live their life. For those folks....who have lived their life "doing no harm" to others.....they have a more difficult time accepting/processing/working through/forgiving themselves. For them....the blow to self is greater as it was done by their own hand.

 

It isn't as much about the hat badge one choose to put on....it is more of who the person was to begin with.

 

There are remorseful WS and AP whose main concern is getting back their integrity and shoring up those areas that allowed themselves to engage in a hurtful act to begin with (they will view it as hurtful to themselves and all that were hurt). That is not to say they will be as or at all concerned about the person who they had the affair with.

 

There are regretful WS and AP who keep their focus on the other party. They go over and over every word/act/time together....often assigning permanent feelings to the other party. They do not accept that feelings,that though they might be real....are not always based on reality and are most definitely not static. Regret does not seek out personal growth....it seeks to be soothed.

 

So whether or not the affair ends by choice, Dday, divorce, moving forward alone or even marriage between the affair partners....it really depends on who one was to begin with.

[Arieswoman]

It isn't as much about the hat badge one choose to put on....it is more of who the person was to begin with.

 

x 1000 - this ^^^ nails it IMO

[sandylee1]

PH,

 

I would think WW have a lot more stress whether their AP is single or married... because of the extra lies and sneaking around they have to do. They must also feel (or not) somewhat hypocritical if they have kids especially .... as you teach your kids to be honest and truthful ... yet here they are doing the opposite.

 

They also have more to loose if they get busted. The shame is worse, and the consequences are quite something too.

 

Mistresses (single women) have existed for centuries and are often depicted as weak women sobbing alone in their apartments after MM has had a romp and is going home to his wife.

 

WW tend to be viewed as having even less morals than the single OW.

[PickledHead]

in my case I didn't choose to get into a relationship with a MM. What started as a bit of harmless fun which suited both our needs/lives at the time grew and ended up that way.

 

As cruel as it seems him being married was a perk at the beginning. I didn't want a relationship or to have any one with any kind of hold over me. But a very casual relationship gradually grew to the point we are in constant contact, see each other every day, go away together, attend events together (obviously not on his side) and so it's a big part of my life to just think 'oh **** he's married I'd better Not'. I didn't choose for it to end up like this and so the wishing they weren't going home to someone else every night doesn't come into play until you are too deep into it to just drop it.

 

That doesn't mean I couldn't or can't attract a single man. Trust me that's the only option for me in future as I guarantee I would run a mile before getting into an A ever again. But it took doing it to realise that.

[lemondrop21]

PH,

 

I would think WW have a lot more stress whether their AP is single or married... because of the extra lies and sneaking around they have to do. They must also feel (or not) somewhat hypocritical if they have kids especially .... as you teach your kids to be honest and truthful ... yet here they are doing the opposite.

 

They also have more to loose if they get busted. The shame is worse, and the consequences are quite something too.

 

Mistresses (single women) have existed for centuries and are often depicted as weak women sobbing alone in their apartments after MM has had a romp and is going home to his wife.

 

WW tend to be viewed as having even less morals than the single OW.

I don't disagree with you Sandy, but just wanted to say that I hope WH also feel hypocritical - it's sad how societally we hold mothers to a higher standard than we do fathers in terms of teaching their kids morals and whatnot.

[NTV]

I don't disagree with you Sandy, but just wanted to say that I hope WH also feel hypocritical - it's sad how societally we hold mothers to a higher standard than we do fathers in terms of teaching their kids morals and whatnot.

 

 

I don't know that that is necessarily true. What I have seen is the social function for trying to ensure that a father teaches morals is vastly different than the one for a mother teaching morals. It appears to me (and again this is only my opinion) that the social structure for ensuring mothers teach morals is built on social shaming, while the one for fathers is built around financial damages... maybe there is some sort of historical reasoning based on the likelihood of responding to those penalties, or maybe it's based on centuries old dynamics of gender ownerships rights (i.e. can't take property away from a woman in the 1300s as a penalty because they weren't allowed to own any). Or it could be something as simple as an increased threat of physical violence if fathers were socially shamed.

 

 

Not that there isn't a little bit of both nowadays.

 

 

I bring that up because I thought to add that if we are comparing 'who has it worse?' I would imagine that the financial damages that come with divorce GENERALLY impact the WH/WW more often than a single AP.

 

 

That being said, if you consider the risk a single male AP takes (risk of violence from BH), then that may be close in regards to risk.

 

 

Either way, I totally agree nobody wins, and it's all pretty much a giant clusterf***. But I like the discussion so I hope it doesn't end with me, lol.

[Lady2163]

Mmmmmmm ......

So you go for the MM because that's what you want and damn the consequences right? Him being married isn't an issue because that's what YOU want. How very selfish.

 

A WH is no prize. ... but IMO he's probably better of with the OW ... who has similar morals to him. They really do deserve each other.

 

 

Someone ALWAYS gets hurt and to not give a flying hoot because it's what YOU want, because this is the ONLY man for you and why let a little fact like him being married a problem... well that speaks volumes about your personality.

 

Let's talk about selfish. When I was married, while I didn't cheat, I was actively LOOKING to trade up, have an exit affair, because my husband was selfish, lazy, neglectful and soul destroying. He certainly wasn't like that when we were dating. I wouldn't have married him. I had the classic bait and switch spouse. And that's a whole different kind of selfish character flaw.

 

My exH was an awful husband. He can admit that now and admit that he was selfish and lazy because that's what he WANTED. My needs and wants in and out of the bedroom were only met if it was convenient to him. He failed to cherish me and destroyed me on a daily basis. Yet, no one ever places the same priority on the cherish vow. Time and again people on here stand on their soapbox and say. "There's no valid excuse or reason for cheating." There's no valid excuse/reason for failing repeatedly and intentionally to love, honor and cherish your spouse.

 

I've had women friends and acquaintances who seem to revel in their neglect of their boyfriends/husbands. I want to smack them. Fine, you don't want to give blowjobs? Even though he really likes them? Then don't be surprised when he starts taking short cuts on foreplay or cheats on you. You don't want to have sex for six months and he should just " deal with it"? Don't play the victim card when he does deal with it....by finding someone who will.

 

I don't think the XMM was perfect, I think he needed to confront some issues rather than avoid conflict. I think he needed to spend more time with wife rather than creating projects in and out of the house. I think he needed to go to bed earlier and have more snuggle time and more back rub/feet rub time. But she also did create an environment where he was tempted to have an affair. He had never cheated on a girlfriend, had never been a player when he was a big man in high school and college (and had droves of women after him).

[Arieswoman]

lady2163,

 

My exH was an awful husband. He can admit that now and admit that he was selfish and lazy because that's what he WANTED. My needs and wants in and out of the bedroom were only met if it was convenient to him. He failed to cherish me and destroyed me on a daily basis.

 

So why not tell him to either shape up or you'd ship out? And then follow through if he didn't up his game?

 

If he was such a cr@ppy husband as you say then you could get a divorce ( in UK) for "unreasonable behaviour". Which is the most common reason that women divorce their husbands in UK.

[sandylee1]

I don't disagree with you Sandy, but just wanted to say that I hope WH also feel hypocritical - it's sad how societally we hold mothers to a higher standard than we do fathers in terms of teaching their kids morals and whatnot.

 

I don't ever think we can chdnge

[Lady2163]

lady2163,

 

 

 

So why not tell him to either shape up or you'd ship out? And then follow through if he didn't up his game?

 

If he was such a cr@ppy husband as you say then you could get a divorce ( in UK) for "unreasonable behaviour". Which is the most common reason that women divorce their husbands in UK.

 

Spinning off-topic

 

Have you heard the phrase "1000 little cuts"? I don't know the whole analogy, but essentially one cut won't kill you, but 1000 cuts will cause you to bleed out and die.

 

It was one of those marriages. If I tell you that two minutes before I was going to go into my bathroom to shower and get ready for work or school, he goes in there and 'blows it up', you may wince, secretly laugh-but tell me that's no reason to divorce him.

 

A while back I was telling a mutual friend from our (the exH and mine) military days what went wrong In the marriage. Each day there were about 10 or more moments like the bathroom where the exH made my life more difficult and sabotaged me for his own wants. My military buddy said, "he put you in the leader and mommy position and made you work too hard, then spent his free time setting you up for failure."

 

And that is not behavior that cherishes.

 

Years later, I did ask the ExH about the whole bathroom thing. He told me that the first time was unintentional. He was watching TV in the morning, my bathroom was the guest bathroom and the closest. Once I complained about it, then it became "fun" to jerk my chain. He was eventually banned from that bathroom, that's what it came down to. It wasn't "fun" when he had to explain to his mother why he had to go to upstairs to use the other bathroom. She was mortified.

 

It was fun for him to make me pissed off in the morning. It was fun for him to make my shower before an 18 hour day of work, school and internship unpleasant. It was fun for him to make me scramble to make up the 5-10 minutes wasted letting it air out.

 

I couldn't ask for a divorce by saying, "he poops in my bathroom on purpose two minutes before I need to go in there for 30 minutes (shower, hair, makeup etc.). Every time I tried to talk to anybody about the other 999 cuts, I was told, "that is marriage."

 

We had been married several years and I had a day where I had to leave the house by 5:00 AM and wouldn't get home until after 6:00 PM. And it was a day of stress. I said to him the night before, "Why don't you take care of supper tomorrow night?" When I stumbled in at 630, exhausted and beat from a tough day and asked what was for supper, he said..."Oh, I went out to eat at the new steak place. When I asked what he got me for my supper he suggested a bowl of cereal.

 

Still not a reason to divorce him. But it tells his mindset. He had spent a day doing nothing, enjoying his six months of unemployment after military discharge while his wife was working hard. He ate steak for supper, but cereal was fine for his wife.

 

I need to wrap this up. I was planning to divorce him, I had a five year plan. I was just hoping to meet someone else and then I could make that five years happen faster.

[NTV]

I was planning to divorce him, I had a five year plan.

 

 

That's one of the coldest things I've ever heard.

[sandylee1]

I don't disagree with you Sandy, but just wanted to say that I hope WH also feel hypocritical - it's sad how societally we hold mothers to a higher standard than we do fathers in terms of teaching their kids morals and whatnot.

 

I don't ever think we can change the fact that society hold women and mothers to a higher moral standard .... but fathers should absolutely look at the poor role model they're being through being a cheater.

 

In fact there's a BW who said her WH is always accusing their teen son of lying and now the same teen son has found out his dad had 2 OWs. .... imagine how low he views his dad now. So very hypocritical.

 

Lady ... if your H turned into a selfish lazy man .... then divorce should have been your next step without wasting time on him. Why live with and be married to a selfish man? If my husband isn't enhancing my life and making mr miserable, then it's game over.

 

Also your XMM .... if his wife wasn't honouring her vows ... then he should have divorced. If one spouse breaks the marital contract with their behaviour ... you don't decide to do more breaking of the contract ... you get out instead of sticking your penis inside another women.

 

However I certainly agree that the actions of some spouses do make it more likely an A will happen ... but if they don't get an OW to play with ... they'd either get divorced or use escorts/prostitutes.

[Lady2163]

That's one of the coldest things I've ever heard.

 

We had bought a fixer-upper house and were still a touch upside down on our mortgage. Five more years and we could do some projects and increase equity.

 

Secretly, I hoped things would improve once I got through school, got a job where he could go to school to get a degree and work in whatever job he wanted. I was telling myself I could live with crappy sex and decent female friends for emotional support for the rest of my life.

 

I complain about him, remember things way too vividly, but he is a much DIFFERENT man today, in his 50s than he was in his 30s. He admits to doing a LOT of stupid things. Both of us agree that we weren't prepared to be husband or wife, we just didn't have the life skills. His life experiences made him 10-15 years less mature than his biological age. He was twenty four when he joined the military and had never made a bed, cooked a meal, washed dishes, had chores etc. Mommy did everything and he wasn't taught rudimentary financial skills.

 

So, his only knowledge of living as a family was that he was the Prince who didn't have to work inside the home or deal with any mundane chores and activities. Bill paying was someone else's job. His check was for going to movies, renting and buying videos, going out to eat and whatever fun activity he wanted to do. We tried marriage counseling and one of the things he said was that he resented having to spend "his" money on the mortgage, electricity, groceries etc. The counselor was a lot more diplomatic than I was.

 

It took many bad years before I wound down to thinking of a "five year plan" or searching for an exit affair. 50% of the equity built during those five years was to be my severance package.

[ladydesigner]

Spinning off-topic

 

Have you heard the phrase "1000 little cuts"? I don't know the whole analogy, but essentially one cut won't kill you, but 1000 cuts will cause you to bleed out and die.

 

It was one of those marriages. If I tell you that two minutes before I was going to go into my bathroom to shower and get ready for work or school, he goes in there and 'blows it up', you may wince, secretly laugh-but tell me that's no reason to divorce him.

 

A while back I was telling a mutual friend from our (the exH and mine) military days what went wrong In the marriage. Each day there were about 10 or more moments like the bathroom where the exH made my life more difficult and sabotaged me for his own wants. My military buddy said, "he put you in the leader and mommy position and made you work too hard, then spent his free time setting you up for failure."

 

And that is not behavior that cherishes.

 

Years later, I did ask the ExH about the whole bathroom thing. He told me that the first time was unintentional. He was watching TV in the morning, my bathroom was the guest bathroom and the closest. Once I complained about it, then it became "fun" to jerk my chain. He was eventually banned from that bathroom, that's what it came down to. It wasn't "fun" when he had to explain to his mother why he had to go to upstairs to use the other bathroom. She was mortified.

 

It was fun for him to make me pissed off in the morning. It was fun for him to make my shower before an 18 hour day of work, school and internship unpleasant. It was fun for him to make me scramble to make up the 5-10 minutes wasted letting it air out.

 

I couldn't ask for a divorce by saying, "he poops in my bathroom on purpose two minutes before I need to go in there for 30 minutes (shower, hair, makeup etc.). Every time I tried to talk to anybody about the other 999 cuts, I was told, "that is marriage."

 

We had been married several years and I had a day where I had to leave the house by 5:00 AM and wouldn't get home until after 6:00 PM. And it was a day of stress. I said to him the night before, "Why don't you take care of supper tomorrow night?" When I stumbled in at 630, exhausted and beat from a tough day and asked what was for supper, he said..."Oh, I went out to eat at the new steak place. When I asked what he got me for my supper he suggested a bowl of cereal.

 

Still not a reason to divorce him. But it tells his mindset. He had spent a day doing nothing, enjoying his six months of unemployment after military discharge while his wife was working hard. He ate steak for supper, but cereal was fine for his wife.

 

I need to wrap this up. I was planning to divorce him, I had a five year plan. I was just hoping to meet someone else and then I could make that five years happen faster.

 

I'm sorry no matter how you try to spin this an A is never the right answer. After an A your actions became as equally as bad as your H's.

[Lady2163]

I don't ever think we can change the fact that society hold women and mothers to a higher moral standard .... but fathers should absolutely look at the poor role model they're being through being a cheater.

 

In fact there's a BW who said her WH is always accusing their teen son of lying and now the same teen son has found out his dad had 2 OWs. .... imagine how low he views his dad now. So very hypocritical.

 

Lady ... if your H turned into a selfish lazy man .... then divorce should have been your next step without wasting time on him. Why live with and be married to a selfish man? If my husband isn't enhancing my life and making mr miserable, then it's game over.

 

Also your XMM .... if his wife wasn't honouring her vows ... then he should have divorced. If one spouse breaks the marital contract with their behaviour ... you don't decide to do more breaking of the contract ... you get out instead of sticking your penis inside another women.

 

However I certainly agree that the actions of some spouses do make it more likely an A will happen ... but if they don't get an OW to play with ... they'd either get divorced or use escorts/prostitutes.

 

I'm around 50 now and that is my attitude with friends, male and female now. If they don't enhance my life, they aren't part of my life. I've been divorced for almost twenty years now and really haven't had a serious relationship since. For years my picker was bad and then I threw myself into a business and the XMM was convenient and I enjoyed his company.

 

I'm supposing here, but my guess is for many married people it is easier to have an affair than to divorce. For me personally, in the present day, I wouldn't waste any time being miserable with someone. I wouldn't try to fix or change them if we were incompatible. If I was meeting my exH today, I wouldn't take him back after our first fight/breakup we had while just dating. I knew we had our differences, but I was young and dumb and didn't realize how glaring they were.

 

I don't think XMM will have another affair. Or purchase the services of an escort.

[Lady2163]

I'm sorry no matter how you try to spin this an A is never the right answer. After an A your actions became as equally as bad as your H's.

 

That's what you believe. i don't believe an undiscovered exit affair would have been as bad as "forgetting" to pick your wife up on the day she returns from 8 months in the Persian Gulf.

 

That was before cell phones. He had gone camping that weekend and was gone for three days. Our apartment looked and smelled like a locker room since he hadn't bothered to clean it for 8 months.

[ladydesigner]

That's what you believe. i don't believe an undiscovered exit affair would have been as bad as "forgetting" to pick your wife up on the day she returns from 8 months in the Persian Gulf.

 

That was before cell phones. He had gone camping that weekend and was gone for three days. Our apartment looked and smelled like a locker room since he hadn't bothered to clean it for 8 months.

 

I think BOTH are bad, neither one is a good example. We can agree to disagree on this.

[NTV]

Lady2163, I don't know. Based on the way you describe your story, I think that you just might not be truly built for marriage. And some folks aren't. That's not a bad thing. Some folks like country music, some don't.

 

 

But I do think that your first experience with it has jaded you some, and the lack of respect held for the institution of marriage does lean towards that direction as well.

 

 

While you may have felt justified or even venerated in your affair and 5 year divorce plan, I think that at some level you gave up on the idea of marriage being a good thing (if you ever held that concept) and instead directed your energies towards personal ambitions.

 

 

I would be interested in learning whether or not you came from a divorced family, and if that had an impact on your opinions now... although I'm aware this may be sidetracking the original questions, I also think that it could hold some nugget of knowledge that would be valuable to the topic at hand.

 

 

Then again, I know asking about it isn't necessarily my business (at all) and if you feel I'm out of line for doing so, feel free to let me know.

[Tayla]

Direct answer: The family unit.

[Lady2163]

Lady2163, I don't know. Based on the way you describe your story, I think that you just might not be truly built for marriage. And some folks aren't. That's not a bad thing. Some folks like country music, some don't.

 

 

But I do think that your first experience with it has jaded you some, and the lack of respect held for the institution of marriage does lean towards that direction as well.

 

 

While you may have felt justified or even venerated in your affair and 5 year divorce plan, I think that at some level you gave up on the idea of marriage being a good thing (if you ever held that concept) and instead directed your energies towards personal ambitions.

 

 

I would be interested in learning whether or not you came from a divorced family, and if that had an impact on your opinions now... although I'm aware this may be sidetracking the original questions, I also think that it could hold some nugget of knowledge that would be valuable to the topic at hand.

 

 

Then again, I know asking about it isn't necessarily my business (at all) and if you feel I'm out of line for doing so, feel free to let me know.

 

Intact family unit. One of my parents was divorced many years before I was born. Parents were married until death. No abuse from family, by today's standards there was neglect, by the standards of the time and geographical region all GenXers/Boomers were raised by wolves. Small town living, gone from sunup until the street lights came on.

 

Now, that said, what definitely warped me was being seduced, groomed, manipulated and abused by married boss 20 years older than I at teen job when I was 16. I was probably on track with my peers puberty wise, but we were a lot less sophisticated than today's 16 year old. I had never been kissed or had a date. Naive doesn't begin to describe it. He used both scare tactics and orgasms as reward to keep me coming back and in line.

 

That's the damage.

 

Oh - and I never had an affair. I didn't cheat on my exH. I would have if there had been opportunity.

[gettingstronger]

Whoever betrays themselves the most has the worst end. Three years out I'm doing better than my husband who is still more haunted by what he did than I am. Betraying your true self must be the worst thing of all because it was within your control and you did it any way.

[sandylee1]

in my case I didn't choose to get into a relationship with a MM. What started as a bit of harmless fun which suited both our needs/lives at the time grew and ended up that way.

 

As cruel as it seems him being married was a perk at the beginning. I didn't want a relationship or to have any one with any kind of hold over me. But a very casual relationship gradually grew to the point we are in constant contact, see each other every day, go away together, attend events together (obviously not on his side) and so it's a big part of my life to just think 'oh **** he's married I'd better Not'. I didn't choose for it to end up like this and so the wishing they weren't going home to someone else every night doesn't come into play until you are too deep into it to just drop it.

 

That doesn't mean I couldn't or can't attract a single man. Trust me that's the only option for me in future as I guarantee I would run a mile before getting into an A ever again. But it took doing it to realise that.

 

Harmless fun to you and him though.... not his wife for sure.

Would you think it was harmless if it was your husband?

 

Again I often hear from OW who say they didn't want a full time relationship so this suits them. You can find a casual relationship with a single man too. In fact the way so many men are scared of commitment that would not be difficult at all.

 

Neither of you are robots.. so of course feelings are going to develop over time.

 

PH .... I'm not getting at you specifically.. it's just a general comment.

[Lady Hamilton]

Why are we even comparing the two? Gold medalists and Silver medalists give me an effing break! No one wins! The WS is the biggest loser of all! Prize? sh*t I am the prize doesn't matter what anyone thinks!

 

I was actually pointing out the gold medal/silver medal thing was not a good analogy.

 

I personally think that there are no winners or losers, it's not a contest. Everybody has redeeming qualities that make them desirable, otherwise the affair wouldn't have happened and ending it wouldn't be so hard. On the flip, everybody has attributes that makes them not desirable, simply because people aren't perfect.

 

Maybe the OW is a prize, maybe not. Same with MM and BS. It just all depends. It's too simplistic to say that there are gold medal/silver medal winners.

[NTV]

Lady, sorry for the late response lol was trying to help what seemed like an urgent need in the am I Jerkish thread. Craziness there.

 

So I'm kinda at a loss with how to respond here. I asked because I thought there was a chance it would be relevant to the op original question and it only is in that it shows more explanation behind your perspective.

 

I wouldn't mind talking about it more because it sounds like I and maybe others could benefit from exploring (course I'm more interested in my self benefit any others are icing on the cake for me) but I'm afraid it would detract from the topic at hand.

 

Plus I don't know if you want to keep talking about what sounds like some pretty painful memories. But if you do start a thread on it please let me know.

 

Either way thanks for sharing what you have so far!

[ladydesigner]

I was actually pointing out the gold medal/silver medal thing was not a good analogy.

 

I personally think that there are no winners or losers, it's not a contest. Everybody has redeeming qualities that make them desirable, otherwise the affair wouldn't have happened and ending it wouldn't be so hard. On the flip, everybody has attributes that makes them not desirable, simply because people aren't perfect.

 

Maybe the OW is a prize, maybe not. Same with MM and BS. It just all depends. It's too simplistic to say that there are gold medal/silver medal winners.

 

I see I thought it was a comparison, my apologies. I agree and can identify with everything you've said here.