Emotional Affair

[heartwhole]

Good for you for seeking counseling. I hope it's helpful.

 

I think you're right that you're just missing how Jamie is like the other typical MM. You wanted time to think before going through with an extramarital affair. If he really cared about you and wanted what was best for you, wouldn't he understand and respect that? Sure, he wants to be with you, but wouldn't the rational part of him understand that you deserve better than being a dirty secret? He is coming across as selfish and manipulative by blowing up your phone and making this all about him, accusing you of "abandoning" him. Remember, he's the one abandoning the woman he promised to love forever.

 

I'm not condoning his wife's behavior or treatment of him, but he seems just as much contributor to their unhealthy dynamic as she is. She suffered a devastating accident and miscarriage, but he was just concerned about how he was sick and had her running his errands? He spends an entire day golfing for "business" reasons while she has to take care of their son? Maybe that was when she started to realize how shallow and selfish he is. Is the right thing for her to berate him and belittle him? No. If she's so unhappy, she should address the issues in a healthy and constructive way. But he's doing the exact same thing. If he's so unhappy, he should address the issues in a healthy and constructive way. Getting a secret girlfriend to plug the holes is neither healthy nor constructive.

 

Even if you wind up with him, there's little chance of "happily ever after." There will be the stress of the financial loss and shared custody. He may start to resent you. You will be the one he takes for granted because it sounds like no matter what, he puts himself first. If he can't be charming and giving while he's trying to get into your pants, how is he going to act once he's achieved his goal?

[PinkSunset]

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

I do need to clear up that yes, he was upset with me but more so because I wouldn't tell him why I was shutting him out. I left him in the dark and I think anyone would be frustrated with that. I have always been there for him and never told him I needed time to think. He was scrambling, I get it.

 

I did speak to Jamie again last night and explained how I felt, that I need time to process what I want and being aan OW isn't it. He said he never intended for me to be an OW even though that's how it seems. He wants more than anything to be able to spend time with me and grow with me... but

 

And there is always a 'but' right?

 

He has to think of his son first. He said he is making an appointment to see a lawyer next week and to not give up on him in the meantime. He keeps pressing me and asking why I've changed all of a sudden.

 

I won't give up yet, but I've decided to take off for the weekend to clear my head. I am supposed to meet him for lunch today and I don't know if that's such a good idea.

Edited May 6, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language~T

[PinkSunset]

Does this Jamie person have any redeeming qualities at all?

 

He told you that his wife said you could lose a few pounds.

Why would he do that? What did he think that would accomplish?

 

This was months ago. I don't know why he would tell me, I think it was in context of our conversation. It didn't bother me at all, I just found it rude and unnecessary of her to say such a thing.

 

I lost a baby. A lot of them, actually. It tore me up. It tore me up that it didn't tear my ex-husband up. I sat and grieved and cried and mourned and I got nothing. He was totally closed off.

 

So when my now-husband/AP wandered into my life, it was as a friend. I wasn't using him, I wasn't creating sob stories, I wasn't trying to figure out how to manipulate him... I was a woman who had miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage and a husband I was losing a connection with and who wanted somebody to talk to. Nobody was trying to have an affair, it started as a friendship. When he pulled away or I pulled away the other would panic not because some masterful plan was being destroyed, but because when you have a connection and you feel that support going away... It friggen hurts.

 

The point is the assumption seems to be that he's this villainous and awful guy who's exploiting a personal tragedy of his wife's (that he had no feelings about whatsoever) for the purposes of bedding somebody... And when he feels her pull away, it MUST be he's panicking that he's no longer allowed to "cake-eat" and is desperately trying to lure her back because his plan for the most complicated sex of his life is falling apart.

 

The reality is that he could be a guy who's hurting, he found a friend, and now he feels her pulling back and he's panicking at losing that one connection he had.

 

Are lines being crossed here and is this headed to affair-land? Oh yeah, absolutely. But not every guy who finds himself in an affair situation is this dastardly plotter who's looking to lure somebody into their bed so they can get their jollies off while also hurting their spouse. Here's guessing when this relationship started as a friendship, he had no idea that it would head to where it ultimately headed to.

 

Thank you. He really, truly is not a bad person. I am his only outlet and his only safe person I guess you could say. He needs me at this point. It's extremely hard for me to cut him off.

[loveisanaction]

Thank you. He really, truly is not a bad person. I am his only outlet and his only safe person I guess you could say. He needs me at this point. It's extremely hard for me to cut him off.

 

He doesn't need you.

 

Girl, what is wrong with you? I mean seriously? Why do you think that if you're not in this man's life that he will fold into a fetal position, suck his thumb and never be able to function again? He is a grown man, he does not need you. Why doesn't he have male friends that he can lean on? Why must it be a single female who has the hots for him?

 

He says that he's going to see a lawyer next week... yes? If he doesn't, he's stalling you.

 

Quite honestly and i mean this in the most respectful way but why any woman would wait on a man to get a divorce just so that she can be with him is beyond me. Too many single and available men out there.

 

The struggle must be very real...

[Girlfromcali]

This was months ago. I don't know why he would tell me, I think it was in context of our conversation. It didn't bother me at all, I just found it rude and unnecessary of her to say such a thing.

 

 

But she's his wife, so she will tell her husband things in confidence that she would never say to anyone else because she trusts him.

 

Have you ever been married? I have, and I can "gossip" with my husband and say things to him about someone just because his my husband and because I know he would NEVER betray me or throw me under the buss.

 

How are you not understanding this? She didn't do anything wrong. She didn't even say anything that bad. My point was that Jamie telling you what she said is totally awful. He's not to be trusted. It's just obvious, water is wet.

[PinkSunset]

He doesn't need you.

 

Girl, what is wrong with you? I mean seriously? Why do you think that if you're not in this man's life that he will fold into a fetal position, suck his thumb and never be able to function again? He is a grown man, he does not need you. Why doesn't he have male friends that he can lean on? Why must it be a single female who has the hots for him?

 

He says that he's going to see a lawyer next week... yes? If he doesn't, he's stalling you.

 

Quite honestly and i mean this in the most respectful way but why any woman would wait on a man to get a divorce just so that she can be with him is beyond me. Too many single and available men out there.

 

The struggle must be very real...

 

I know what you're saying and it's hard for me to see how I ended up here. two years ago I never ever would have put myself into a position like this. I can only blame myself, I know.

 

I can't just up and walk away though, I care about him too much. If I could flip that switch I would.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that he needs me but he says it to me all the time.

He does have guy friends, he just doesn't confide in them on the same level. He said he did discuss some of his marriage troubles with a buddy when things started going downhill and it somehow ended up back to her so he doesn't tell anyone a thing anymore.

[PinkSunset]

But she's his wife, so she will tell her husband things in confidence that she would never say to anyone else because she trusts him.

 

Have you ever been married? I have, and I can "gossip" with my husband and say things to him about someone just because his my husband and because I know he would NEVER betray me or throw me under the buss.

 

How are you not understanding this? She didn't do anything wrong. She didn't even say anything that bad. My point was that Jamie telling you what she said is totally awful. He's not to be trusted. It's just obvious, water is wet.

 

No, I have never been married. I have been in a few long term relationships though and I know what you're saying.

 

I am FAR from fat. I barely have any on my body at all, but I think his point was it's just the way she is. She has to criticize and bring down everyone around her. She will find fault in anyone, even if she has to make it up. Everything is negative. She is surrounded by negative energy.

[Girlfromcali]

She didn't call you fat. She said you could lose a few pounds.

 

It is her opinion, and she didn't tell that to you, she told that to her husband.

[S2B]

Since your goal is to not be his side kick - then why not end it until his divorce is final? That way it gives him the room to see that lawyer and get the divorce he's thinking about...

 

Until that actually happens = he is expecting you to be on the side...and that's not what you wanted.

 

So...don't be that gal. Just don't do it. He can want that all he wishes but it's not possible if you don't participate until he's an available guy. That means no lunches and no communicating. He knows where you stand and IF he intends to get divorced he will.

 

If not, then he just intended to have you continue being his OW and compromising YOUR integrity. No man is worth sacrificing your standards for.

[anika99]

I know what you're saying and it's hard for me to see how I ended up here. two years ago I never ever would have put myself into a position like this. I can only blame myself, I know.

 

I can't just up and walk away though, I care about him too much. If I could flip that switch I would.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that he needs me but he says it to me all the time.

He does have guy friends, he just doesn't confide in them on the same level. He said he did discuss some of his marriage troubles with a buddy when things started going downhill and it somehow ended up back to her so he doesn't tell anyone a thing anymore.

 

Well so what it ended up getting back to her? She is the one he should be talking to about how he feels in the first place! What good does it do just to whine about your marriage to other people instead of actually addressing the problem? He sounds like a conflict avoider.

 

When there are problems in a marriage usually both spouses are contributing to those problems. Rarely is one person a total monster and 100% at fault while the other is a saint and completely innocent. I feel like married men who have affairs instead of dealing with their marital problems do so simply because they don't want to address or change the ways their behaviour is contributing to the marital strife. They know that if they want their wife to make changes and to work on the marriage they must also be willing to make changes and do the work too. But that doesn't feel good. It's so much more fun for them to run to another woman and get babied and told that they are wonderful and perfect specimens regardless of how glaringly obvious it is that by cheating and lying to their spouse they are at least half of the problem.

[SomethingToSay]

Of course its a bad idea to meet him for lunch. There are only 2 directions this can go : 1) continuing on as an affair or 2) stopping the A and going NC

 

There is no in between. You cant just be "friends" or just try to still be there for him but not get physical or any other such nonsense.

 

I understand you have deep feelings. The only way to deal with that is dive in 100% as OW to this man. Or go NC and eventually the feelings will fade. Any choice or course of action other than No. 2 falls into catrgory No. 1, no matter how you try to spin it or paint it or whatever

 

Doesnt it slightly annoy you that he was willing to just bed you and keep on as is without addressing the fact he is married with no plans to divorce? Until you pulled back. Now he plans to meet with a lawyer next week.

 

Great, then see if he actually does that and until then certainly dont see or talk to him. Even if he does meet with them please dont allow that alone to give you any sort of green light to continue the affair. He needs to BE divorced. Or at least officially speparated living in his own apt with a 12 mo lease before you even consider resuming communication.

 

Very proud of you for pulling the brakes on last night and telling him you refuse to be an OW

[SomethingToSay]

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He keepspressing me and asking why I've changed all of a sudden

Tell him that you felt you two were approaching the level of physical intimacy and when you thought of that, then thought of him leaving your home and going back to his wife, it made you vomit.

He will of course say..."we sleep in separate rooms, we are roommates, there is no sex." Don't fall for it. If she really had no love for him then she'd probably be agreeable to an open marriage where they can see others.

He said he never intended for me to be a side piece even thoughthat's how it seems

Well what did he intend then? Assuming he would have came over and had sex with you while being married with no plans for a divorce, what was his intentions exactly? He will say something like "I don't know, all I know is you mean more to me than anything else in the world" but what he WONT say "my intention is to file for divorce as soon as possible"

 

 

He is already telling you it is most likely not going to happen with his "but" regarding he has to think of his son first.

 

 

This is similar to a drug addict who has been on heroin for a year. They can put off the detox as long as possible, but the longer they do, the worse it is going to be. You can substitute heroin with methadone, suboxone, etc...but they you just get hooked on that. At some point, you are going to have to rip the bandaid. Or go 100% into role of OW with the hopes he divorces.

[PinkSunset]

She didn't call you fat. She said you could lose a few pounds.

 

It is her opinion, and she didn't tell that to you, she told that to her husband.

 

Same thing, and she weighs more than I do. The point is that she is saying something untrue to make me look bad or to make herself feel better because that's who she is.

 

 

Well so what it ended up getting back to her? She is the one he should be talking to about how he feels in the first place! What good does it do just to whine about your marriage to other people instead of actually addressing the problem? He sounds like a conflict avoider.

 

When there are problems in a marriage usually both spouses are contributing to those problems. Rarely is one person a total monster and 100% at fault while the other is a saint and completely innocent. I feel like married men who have affairs instead of dealing with their marital problems do so simply because they don't want to address or change the ways their behaviour is contributing to the marital strife. They know that if they want their wife to make changes and to work on the marriage they must also be willing to make changes and do the work too. But that doesn't feel good. It's so much more fun for them to run to another woman and get babied and told that they are wonderful and perfect specimens regardless of how glaringly obvious it is that by cheating and lying to their spouse they are at least half of the problem.

 

They did work on the marriage, very much so. It's just gone no where and he has brought up divorce before as I stated previously. I just don't understand why she feels the need to threaten Jamie into staying and using their son to do it. Why keep him there, just to treat him like crap?

 

 

 

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Tell him that you felt you two were approaching the level of physical intimacy and when you thought of that, then thought of him leaving your home and going back to his wife, it made you vomit.

He will of course say..."we sleep in separate rooms, we are roommates, there is no sex." Don't fall for it. If she really had no love for him then she'd probably be agreeable to an open marriage where they can see others.

 

Well what did he intend then? Assuming he would have came over and had sex with you while being married with no plans for a divorce, what was his intentions exactly? He will say something like "I don't know, all I know is you mean more to me than anything else in the world" but what he WONT say "my intention is to file for divorce as soon as possible"

 

 

He is already telling you it is most likely not going to happen with his "but" regarding he has to think of his son first.

 

 

This is similar to a drug addict who has been on heroin for a year. They can put off the detox as long as possible, but the longer they do, the worse it is going to be. You can substitute heroin with methadone, suboxone, etc...but they you just get hooked on that. At some point, you are going to have to rip the bandaid. Or go 100% into role of OW with the hopes he divorces.

 

I agree with you. I am trying my best to now create distance between us but it is hard. Everything everyone is saying paints him as this man who only thinks about himself but I can't see him like that. I still see him as poor Jamie and I am having trouble with letting that view go.

 

No he is not innocent and neither am I. It took me backing off before he mentioned the lawyer and I said this to him. He said he has no excuse and he was sorry. Everything he says breaks my heart.

 

I told him last night I don't want him to leave his wife for me, I want him to leave his wife because he is unhappy and is done being treated like dirt.

[heartwhole]

I just don't understand why she feels the need to threaten Jamie into staying and using their son to do it. Why keep him there, just to treat him like crap?

 

This is what OW always think, that the BW is using her voodoo magic to keep the man in the marriage. You've said she's the one with the money, so I imagine she could do just fine without him. It sounds like the marriage is not as bad as he lets on. As MM become more entangled in the affair, they begin to view their marriages through a negative lens, but comparing their boring old wife with the exciting OW who only has to be her best self for small snippets of time is not a fair comparison. And most MM know this deep down, which is why they stay.

 

If you asked the BW, I bet she would say that of course she wants to stay in the marriage; it's what they promised to do, and what's best for their son. But I bet she also wants Jamie to grow up and start putting his family first and dealing with his problems in a healthy way. Just like you do, right? Only to you, that means leaving his marriage. You both want him to change. You'll probably both be disappointed.

[SomethingToSay]

PinkSunset,

Maybe it would help you if you let got of this idea that every single word that comes out of his mouth is absolutely 100% accurate and true.

 

 

That maybe she DIDNT say you needed to lose a few lbs. That maybe she DOESNT boss him around and treat him horribly and chain him to the radiator in the kitchen.

 

 

That maybe...just maybe....she's a normal wife who sometimes gets bitchy and annoyed and he loves her and the life they have created together though it might be a bit challenging and mundane at times.

 

 

Even in different dynamics -- ie parent/child relationships, boss/teacher relationship -- usually anything anyone tells you needs to be taken with a grain of salt b/c its a biased view.

 

 

PLEASE stop trying to "figure out" their marriage. Please stop anaylyzing this wife who has no idea she is in competition with you. And please stop saying that "His wife does this" or "his wife does that" or "Jamie asks his wife this" and "The wife wont let him do that"...YOU DONT KNOW. NOR WILL YOU EVER.

 

 

Has he scheduled the lawyer appointment yet? If he loved you as much as he says, Id imagine he'd be calling first thing this a.m. to get an appointment as quick as he could. Did he?

[PinkSunset]

You are saying I should disregard anything Jamie has told me? How am I supposed to do that after a year of this?

 

You are right I do not know everything that has gone on in their marriage, I know that some men can fabricate things and make themselves look like poor me... But I have seen it for myself! To call your spouse stupid in front of house guests was completely disrespectful not only to me and my ex but to Jamie as well! No one deserves that, NO ONE.

 

Also I want to clarify that I am not her friend, for anyone saying I am cruel to pretend so. The last time I saw her was probably 5 months ago. She doesn't call me and I don't call her.

She does think Jamie and I still have business dealings but we do not. I guess this is his cover for if she happens to see my number on his phone. We mostly communicate through email during the day or our office lines.

[PinkSunset]

PinkSunset,

 

Has he scheduled the lawyer appointment yet? If he loved you as much as he says, Id imagine he'd be calling first thing this a.m. to get an appointment as quick as he could. Did he?

 

 

I am waiting for him to come back from his meeting and I will ask him then. Whether or not he has called and made the appointment will determine whether or not I see him for lunch.

[elaine567]

PinkSunset,

Maybe it would help you if you let got of this idea that every single word that comes out of his mouth is absolutely 100% accurate and true.

 

PinkSunset

This is not a normal single/single relationship, do not think that it is.

This is a man hiding you from his wife and lying to her through his teeth.

YOU cannot assume that he is NOT lying to you too, when he feels he needs to.

The lying is what catches many OW out, they know he is lying to his wife, but they don't expect to find he is lying to them too.

How can this man lie to them? A man who has professed undying love, a man who is their soulmate, a man who they have this amazing connection with, how could he possibly lie, but he can and he often does.

Be careful, take nothing for granted.

[SomethingToSay]

Just bc you have seen her be rude to him not does not mean everything he tells you is 100:% fact.

 

He knows you have seen those instamces. So IF he wanted to consciously or subconsciously play up the Poor Sausage narrative...he's got a great foundation for you believeing it happens 1000x since you have seen it 3x.

 

Just remeber. He is lyimg to his wife. The mother of his child. Who he has known for years and much longer than you. Lying to her every simgle day either directly or by ommission. So why is it so hard to realize he would have no problem doing so to you??

 

Heres an image. Picture. A cartoon drawing of two housesll sitting next to each other. Picture a woman in each house. Now picture a MM going back and forth between those houses. Running frantically and fast, covering his footsteps in the dirt. Back and forth day after day. The woman in House A sees nothing outside of her house. The woman in House B sees nothimg outside hers. Every now and then a woman will get an accidental glimpsem. Maybe MM leaves the door open a mokent too long upon entering. maybe a woman opens the window a crack and peers out. She sees MM near the other house but he explains it away. Woman thinks oh silly me how could I doubt this man.

 

Neither woman realizes the man is in a relationship with both women. Neither has any knowlwdge of this interactions with the other house aside from what he tells them which is meant to keep them firmly closed im their house. MM is the only one who knows. Back and forth he goes...managing and spinning and lying...day after day

 

See how that works?

[S2B]

I am waiting for him to come back from his meeting and I will ask him then. Whether or not he has called and made the appointment will determine whether or not I see him for lunch.

 

Really?

 

Just making a phone call for an appt is "enough" for you to be satisfied?

 

And telling him what you want to to feel and what to do is not useful.

 

Either he REALLY wants to get divorced -OR - he just wants you to be quiet about it.

 

When any person wants to Get divorced - NOTHING stops them.

 

 

Did you meet today?

[PinkSunset]

I know this isn't a single/single relationship. If it was I would be happy and not on this forum.

All of this other stuff is new for me. I've been by his side for a year falling in love with this man. I let go of someone who was perfect for me over this, and I am starting to regret it.

Pulling away and not being available to him is going to be new to me. I am in knots over it. I plan on going away this weekend and leaving my phone at home so I am not disturbed by anything. I hope it helps.

 

 

Really?

 

Just making a phone call for an appt is "enough" for you to be satisfied?

 

And telling him what you want to to feel and what to do is not useful.

 

Either he REALLY wants to get divorced -OR - he just wants you to be quiet about it.

 

When any person wants to Get divorced - NOTHING stops them.

 

 

Did you meet today?[/Q]

 

No, I have yet to hear back from him which is unusual. Maybe his meeting is running late but something tells me otherwise.

[SomethingToSay]

Good for you going away and leaving your phone behind.

 

I think you are handling this extremely well. Most new OW who come here simply refuse to garner the strength to admit whats being spelled out for them. You seem like a very nice person who has maybe too much empathy for a situation and unfortunatley are just naive to marriage and affairs. I would have been exactly the same way at a younger age. Its scary to realize thingslikely werent headed on the path you thought. And that things arent likely 100% exactly like youve been led to believe.

 

Hang in there and stay strong. Just remeber -- regardles of whats lies, whats exaggerations and whats truth -- you still only have 2 options -- dive in as OW; or end the A and go NC. There is no in between unfortunatley since you have emotions for him.

[Lady Hamilton]

This was months ago. I don't know why he would tell me, I think it was in context of our conversation. It didn't bother me at all, I just found it rude and unnecessary of her to say such a thing.

 

 

 

Thank you. He really, truly is not a bad person. I am his only outlet and his only safe person I guess you could say. He needs me at this point. It's extremely hard for me to cut him off.

 

"Outlet" and "safe person." Very telling words.

 

That's very different than him thinking you are the love of his life.

 

You're sliding into the role of free therapist he may be able to sleep with, you want to rescue him, he wants to think somebody would rescue him.

 

I'd be careful. You're creating a dynamic where it's very easy for him to not need you, and since your relationship is apparently built on needing...

Edited May 6, 2016 by Lady Hamilton

[SomethingToSay]

Id spend a lot of time this weekend reading this forum to see how many situations were just like yours:

 

 

March will be two freakin years...oh my

This is ridiculous. Why anyone would choose this life is beyond me...that being said here I sit pathetically, obsessed with the addiction to MM. I know we're in the push/pull, I know this is wrong on so many levels, I'm hating who I've become. Things in his life have gotten crazy busy and he keeps bumping me down the list of things that need to come first. I practically beg him to just let me go...that I'm not strong enough to do this anymore...he says "I'm crazy he loves me, loves me as hard and deep as he ever has, he's waited years to tell me he loved me and that we have too much invested in each other to let each other go, I'm the only one who understands him, I'm his strength, I'm his future, I'm all that keeps him going, he can't function at work when he thinks I'm upset with him"....blah blah blah...and I eat it right up. It is pathetic!!! All this desperation for a few emails and phone calls a day...a couple times a week brief limited PA...

 

Could be you in 2 years -- MM still with his wife, and you too caught up to walk away.

 

 

If its true that you really want him to leave his marriage because its bad, and NOT because of you....then you simply must walk away and allow him to that. As long as you are in the picture, you are going to be one of or "the" reason he left. If he ever left that is.

[PinkSunset]

You are probably right about the dynamic that is being created but I have never seen him so freaked out...because of me pulling away.

 

We had lunch. His appointment with the lawyer is on Tuesday. He knows I am gone for the weekend and he says it bothers him that I am not taking my phone.

 

He also said his wife may have heard some of his conversation with me last night but he isn't sure. This would be very bad for him and I. I told him it's probably best we lay low then, considering my feelings and also that she may start digging. I guess now I get to worry about this all weekend.