No wonder (some) men struggle

[carhill]

Gordon Gecko was right. I'm channeling Trump now

[HillValley]

That's not really true. Who raised the children then? Even as far back as the ancient Egyptians people got old enough to become grandparents and I think it's safe to assume "marriage" as we know it came to be after humans settled down and were no longer nomadic (which is also when our lifespans dramatically increased).

 

Household are multi-generational. The whole move out the house at 18 is recent(70s-80s) and very American. Widowed parent, oldest child with his/her spouse and their kids and taking care of their siblings. Plus people had 9 kids cause half would die young anyways.

 

I think this thing that men are less happy single is because men are told to find a good woman to marry and have kids with. We are raised to believe that single men are essentially worthless in society. Just look at the way people perceive a man that is single around his 40s, the general perception is that this man is either unable to hold on to a woman or unable to attract one in the first place, the perception is not that he is single by choice. Any decently self sufficient man benefits as little from a relationship as a woman. Honestly if you consider that 70% of divorces are initiated by women and that the one paying alimony is almost always the man, I'd say men benefit far less from marriage than women.

I have yet to date a woman that is prepared to help relieve housework load. In today's age, many girls are "empowered" and "feminist" and they refuse to even clean up their own clothes they leave around your apartment and they can't even cook a decent meal. Maybe I have just met the wrong girls but honestly, I feel like they benefit more from me than I from them. I have never dated a girl that could cook as well as I can, and only once dated a girl that helped clean the apartment and kitchen without acting annoyed (when I asked if they could help). So I always end up cooking, because I like healthy and tasty food, cleaning, because I like a clean place. Maybe that's why I am as happy being single as anybody, having a relationship doesn't seem to add anything.

 

LOL. What?

 

Women are considered dried up if they don't have kids before 30. DiCaprio is still considered a swinging bachelor and no one hates him for it.

[Els]

My interpretation is different from yours, Kamille. I think the fact that married women are less happy than married men in general is caused by the societal pressure for women to marry. I think a lot of women marry when they really shouldn't - either they're not ready yet, or with the wrong person, or just not suited for marriage - and this leads to them being dissatisfied with their M. Whereas men receive less of this pressure so they are more likely to marry only when they are really ready and want to (or at least they believe so at the time).

[Arieswoman]

I agree with this;

 

My interpretation is different from yours, Kamille. I think the fact that married women are less happy than married men in general is caused by the societal pressure for women to marry. I think a lot of women marry when they really shouldn't - either they're not ready yet, or with the wrong person, or just not suited for marriage - and this leads to them being dissatisfied with their M. Whereas men receive less of this pressure so they are more likely to marry only when they are really ready and want to (or at least they believe so at the time).

 

Also some women want a family, and the best time to start this is before they hit 35. So they are conscious of the "biological time clock ticking" and will feel pressured by that to get into a LTR.

 

Men on the other hand can become fathers at any time up to their 60s, so the pressure isn't there

[Gloria25]

My interpretation is different from yours, Kamille. I think the fact that married women are less happy than married men in general is caused by the societal pressure for women to marry. I think a lot of women marry when they really shouldn't - either they're not ready yet, or with the wrong person, or just not suited for marriage - and this leads to them being dissatisfied with their M. Whereas men receive less of this pressure so they are more likely to marry only when they are really ready and want to (or at least they believe so at the time).

 

I believe that society - especially now a days - is telling women that their value, and ONLY value is in the workplace. So, you have a lot of women who spit on things a SAHM/SAHW normally would do to nurture her man and family (i.e. cooking, cleaning, sexing).

 

I mean, the anger within that article just makes me wonder how women can be/stay married to someone they have so much venom for.

 

My mom and I? We're not close - not in the least. Yet, I clean up the whole house and work full time. At one point she used to clean the bathroom she uses, but I do that now too. We both cook, but I do most of the cooking. If she's washing and I'm in the washroom I put her stuff in the dryer and fold her stuff. I don't walk around huffing and puffing about having to clean up after "her" **hisss, hisss**

 

If you hate your husband so much and picking up after him upsets you so, then stay single...please.

 

If both people work, then ok, a decision/agreement has to be made about how things are gonna get done cuz if he's that broke that he needs her income, then he should pitch in with the household chores. And his "reward" is no sex, and coming home to a tired and angry wife - cuz back in the day "men" handled their business...they didn't sit around with their hands out expecting women to pay for this/that.

 

But, still, like the example I use with my mom - doesn't kill me to put her stuff in the dryer and/or fold her stuff if I just am in the washroom...geesh, so much venom. Then, women wonder why their men cheat and/or divorce them.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Gloria25

[Gloria25]

And here's a 60 Minutes story of some real, powerhouse women who realized the value they "really" have is at home with their family.

 

A mother's dilemma: Stay at home or not? - CBS News

 

One reason that while I have in the past years been open to marriage, will not marry the guys that are out there today, cuz how dare he tell me go earn a check and leave our child in daycare/relatives/etc.

 

And as bad as this economy is, I'm a woman, who doesn't make big bucks and I have my own home, stuff, etc. If some guy expects me to marry him so he can bunk off of my hard work then he can get lost. He needs to have his own stuff already and not depend on me. And guaranteed, all these couples that claim they need two incomes? Take a detailed look at their bills, etc and there's room to cut. Even me, I could have gotten a smaller car and not splurge on stuff so I could have extra cash.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Gloria25

[lana-banana]

I believe that society - especially now a days - is telling women that their value, and ONLY value is in the workplace.

 

Where in the world are you seeing this? I live in one of the biggest cities of the US. We have an enormous proportion of women in the workplace, we're mostly very well-educated and socially conscious, and we STILL give far more attention to a woman who's recently engaged than a woman who earns a major promotion. When was the last time you went to a lavish party with handprinted invitations and flowers for a woman who knocked a business presentation out of the park?

 

I just landed a new job at a really prestigious company. It's the time of my life and I'm psyched. You know what everyone wants to talk about? How my boyfriend is ring shopping and when he's going to pop the question. Don't get me wrong, he's the love of my life and I couldn't be happier, but to hear other people talk you'd think the ONLY thing that matters is the fact that I seem to have permanently landed a man. Western society still views women's grandest achievement only relative to other people---she found a man! she has a kid!---rather than anything she does for herself.

 

So, you have a lot of women who spit on things a SAHM/SAHW normally would do to nurture her man and family (i.e. cooking, cleaning, sexing).

 

How many stay-at-home moms do you actually know? And who exactly do you know that "spits" on basic human tasks like cooking, cleaning and sex? That's preposterous. Even among me and my fellow yuppies, almost all of us share cooking and cleaning responsibilities.

 

I mean, the anger within that article just makes me wonder how women can be/stay married to someone they have so much venom for.

 

You want to talk about venom? Your every post drips with contempt for an image of a woman that, as far as I can tell, does not exist---some mythical shrew who dominates in the workplace, neglects her home and emasculates her poor, loving husband to where he has no choice but to cheat on her. Meanwhile, you're the champion of some virtuous stay-at-home mother-to-be keeps a perfectly clean and beautiful home that she somehow affords despite not having a job (I'm pretty sure she doesn't exist either). It sounds like you're seething at all women because they no longer conform to a model where you thought you would be competitive.

 

Yet, I clean up the whole house and work full time. At one point she used to clean the bathroom she uses, but I do that now too. We both cook, but I do most of the cooking. If she's washing and I'm in the washroom I put her stuff in the dryer and fold her stuff. I don't walk around huffing and puffing about having to clean up after "her" **hisss, hisss**

 

95% of people work full-time and clean their own homes, too. Where are you seeing these people who "hiss" about having to clean up after their husbands? Have you considered the object of your ire is, in fact, totally imaginary?

 

If you hate your husband so much and picking up after him upsets you so, then stay single...please.

 

I think anyone, male or female, is allowed to occasionally be annoyed at a partner who can't seem to get their socks in the hamper no matter how many times the other partner says "please for the love of God put them in the hamper". Annoyances happen. You are the only one describing hissing and hatred.

 

If both people work, then ok, a decision/agreement has to be made about how things are gonna get done cuz if he's that broke that he needs her income, then he should pitch in with the household chores. And his "reward" is no sex, and coming home to a tired and angry wife - cuz back in the day "men" handled their business...they didn't sit around with their hands out expecting women to pay for this/that.

 

Once again you have a lot of very strong opinions about this fantasyland where it's reasonable for people to afford whatever they need. Meanwhile in America, my boyfriend and I have a combined income far over 200k (we're at around the same salary level but he makes a tad more than me) and there is no. way. in. HELL we could afford to have one of us stay home with a kid. Cities are expensive. Even if we were way out in the sticks, it's laughable to think either of us would make enough relative to the local cost of living to stay home with a child. Do you have any idea how much braces, piano lessons, new clothes and jogging strollers even cost? I can't imagine where you live that one-working-parent homes are the ideal or even the norm, because here in reality, it's not happening.

[dreamingoftigers]

Yes, more selective and more confident they can replace him. When they're confident they can replace him with a better one... that's when it's over. Men just want the women to be happy and everything to be stable. Happy wife, happy life.

 

I find it's the opposite.

 

Even if it isn't objectively true, more men tend to see women as replaceable and often treat them as such.

 

I can't believe some of the crap women are willing to accept just to "keep him around, or else I will be alone."

[dreamingoftigers]

 

If you hate your husband so much and picking up after him upsets you so, then stay single...please.

 

If both people work, then ok, a decision/agreement has to be made about how things are gonna get done cuz if he's that broke that he needs her income, then he should pitch in with the household chores. And his "reward" is no sex, and coming home to a tired and angry wife - cuz back in the day "men" handled their business...they didn't sit around with their hands out expecting women to pay for this/that.

 

But, still, like the example I use with my mom - doesn't kill me to put her stuff in the dryer and/or fold her stuff if I just am in the washroom...geesh, so much venom. Then, women wonder why their men cheat and/or divorce them.

 

I just don't get why we can't both clean up and both screw each other. And thank goodness he's taken on some of the baby stuff with a newborn. (We have a difficult little one, hence I am posting at 4:23 am).

 

I don't wonder why many men cheat. I think that many men are not socialized well on how to react in relationships to issues that arise. So much of relationship information is geared to women, who are also heavily socialized to invest in men and marriage.

 

I would be so happy to see many more relationship books / guides geared toward men interested in relationships / family and conflict / issues.

 

Often when people feel overwhelmed, trapped, entitled or are simply inconsiderate.... they want to escape their circumstance. Cheating has become the new alcohol for this generation. The latest destructive escape.

[mike_89]

I don't wonder why many men cheat. I think that many men are not socialized well on how to react in relationships to issues that arise. So much of relationship information is geared to women, who are also heavily socialized to invest in men and marriage.

 

I would be so happy to see many more relationship books / guides geared toward men interested in relationships / family and conflict / issues.

The problem is that there are way fewer good role models for men than there used to be. How many men these days are raised by single mothers? How do you expect men who were raised without a dad to have a decent idea of how relationships work? The families that are shown on TV (sitcoms etc.) are usually not exactly great role models either. You can't start educating adult men on how relationships are supposed to work, it's way too late by then. Men need to learn how relationships work while they are still children. They need to see their parents getting along very well, they need to experience the love between a man and a woman as a child, not read about it as an adult, much in the same way that other social behaviour is learned by experience.

[PrettyEmily77]

Regardless of gender, I think you've reached a healthy place when you get to the point where you're no longer willing to take any crap or feel you have to stay with someone because of their potential rather than what they are now for the sake of not being single anymore.

 

 

Equity movement has given that same luxury to both men and women: women don't have to compromise because they can now be fully self-sufficient and ambitious, and they don't need to feel inadequate, shunned or chastised for not having / wanting kids; men don't feel emasculated or pressurised anymore for living their lives women-free if that's what they want, for being SAHDs if that's what they want, or for wanting an equal partnership in all aspects of a relationship, or even for wanting to carry on the traditional 'main breadwinner' role.

 

 

So many other countries aren't quite at that stage yet, so really some of us are lucky in that we have the choice.

 

 

So hurray for equity movement!

[PrettyEmily77]

Two women I know of, mid 20s in the military with me. Both has nasty cars and barracks/condo. One, she even went as a date to a military ball with chippy toenails. Both are married and divorced...one had one kid, one three.

 

So, I bet they're sitting around scratching their heads as to why their marriages failed barely not even 5 years married.

 

So, don't clean, don't keep up your appearance and don't be surprised when you're divorced in a few years and/or he cheats.

 

 

Generalising on the basis of 2 is stretching it a bit, don't you think?

[GoodOnPaper]

men don't feel emasculated or pressurised anymore for living their lives women-free if that's what they want, for being SAHDs if that's what they want, or for wanting an equal partnership in all aspects of a relationship, or even for wanting to carry on the traditional 'main breadwinner' role.

 

Ironically, the only one of those choices that preserves the kind of masculinity that is instinctively considered attractive is living their lives women-free . . .

[thefooloftheyear]

Ironically, the only one of those choices that preserves the kind of masculinity that is instinctively considered attractive is living their lives women-free . . .

 

Absolutely....

 

TFY

[PrettyEmily77]

Ironically, the only one of those choices that preserves the kind of masculinity that is instinctively considered attractive is living their lives women-free . . .

 

That type of masculinity you refer to that is considered instinctively attractive by men amongst themselves, I would wager.

 

For instance, where I live, there are plenty of SAHDs who are considered an example of masculinity, self-assurance and security by their wives (and their friends!!) because they're not the type to feel threatened by appearances and the rumour-mill.

[Woggle]

That type of masculinity you refer to that is considered instinctively attractive by men amongst themselves, I would wager.

 

For instance, where I live, there are plenty of SAHDs who are considered an example of masculinity, self-assurance and security by their wives (and their friends!!) because they're not the type to feel threatened by appearances and the rumour-mill.

 

I have no issue whatsoever with SAHds or SAHMs for that matter but from what I observe masculine men are the ones who have a lot of success with women and have marriages that last with wives who treat them well. It is the opposite kind of men who get cheated on, get left and have wives who are unhappy who view them with contempt. I am not saying it is right but is an honest observance.

[PrettyEmily77]

I have no issue whatsoever with SAHds or SAHMs for that matter but from what I observe masculine men are the ones who have a lot of success with women and have marriages that last with wives who treat them well. It is the opposite kind of men who get cheated on, get left and have wives who are unhappy who view them with contempt. I am not saying it is right but is an honest observance.

 

I think that's how other me see masculine men, to be honest.

 

For most women I know (including myself), a masculine man is an emotionally secure guy with a healthy dose of self-assurance and respect for women, and who will be supportive of, and happy for, their partner to do whatever it is they want to do without feeling threatened or emasculated. Same-sex couples very often give a very good image of what true masculinity is - a guy's masculinity is not linked to his success with women.

[Woggle]

I think that's how other me see masculine men, to be honest.

 

For most women I know (including myself), a masculine man is an emotionally secure guy with a healthy dose of self-assurance and respect for women, and who will be supportive of, and happy for, their partner to do whatever it is they want to do without feeling threatened or emasculated. Same-sex couples very often give a very good image of what true masculinity is - a guy's masculinity is not linked to his success with women.

 

True to a point but self respect matters with these men. I know a woman who refers to her husband who does most of the housework as her little B word and once dumped a drink on the floor in front of her friends so he would clean it up. I don't see too many women being attracted to a man with so little self respect.

[GunslingerRoland]

I know this whole stay at home parent thing is off topic, but it's all about choosing priorities if you want one parent to stay at home.

 

 

Do you have any idea how much braces, piano lessons, new clothes and jogging strollers even cost?

 

And this is why so many people don't have kids these days, or both parents work. If these were considered the essentials when I was a kid, I guess I was in big trouble, because my mom couldn't have afforded any of that for me.

[WaitingForBardot]

I think both men AND women should be selfish when looking for relationships and marriage. Always ask yourself, What's in it for me? and Am I getting what I want?

I think one can ask what's in it for me without being selfish or otherwise unrealistic about the compromises necessary for a relationship, any relationship, with anyone.

[PrettyEmily77]

True to a point but self respect matters with these men. I know a woman who refers to her husband who does most of the housework as her little B word and once dumped a drink on the floor in front of her friends so he would clean it up. I don't see too many women being attracted to a man with so little self respect.

 

That's just down to unhealthy dynamics in that particular relationship, IMO.

[Imajerk17]

Interesting thread! My thoughts:

 

1. See, I'm not sure how happy people really are in marriage translates to how they pursue dating and relationships. There are plenty of women who still dream of their wedding and being married and having 2.5 kids even if statistics say it won't actually make them happier. The blissful Facebook posts of their coupled-up friends has to add to this.

 

2. Relating to here, I do think there are a lot of disenfranchised males when it comes to dating. Many of these guys were told growing up that if they get a good job and earn a decent salary, then they'd meet someone who would love to hitch their wagons to them. Much to the disappointment and frustration of these guys, it hasn't played out that way. Now that women have their own careers, they are dating by attraction and chemistry--things that seem silly, illogical, and that these males have no idea how to trigger.

 

3. That's not to say that women now have all the power. Many women complain about the hook-up culture nowadays. Hell we see it on here where women are writing threads concerned about their relationship with their *FWB* (not their boyfriend). Why isn't it an exclusive relationship? That the woman cares that much about the relationship w the FWB does make me suspect that she does wish it were more serious but she doesn't want to rock the boat.

 

So I do think nowadays things are better in some instances and worse in some instances for *either* gender, but I am still not sure of how much it has to do with how happy women actually are after marriage.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Imajerk17

[Gloria25]

True to a point but self respect matters with these men. I know a woman who refers to her husband who does most of the housework as her little B word and once dumped a drink on the floor in front of her friends so he would clean it up. I don't see too many women being attracted to a man with so little self respect.

 

And thing is, people wanna ignore biology and think it's ok for a guy to be running around in an apron cooking, cleaning, and watching the kids - but biology sneaks up on us and women start disrespecting those same men they demand split the chores "she" had 50/50.

 

Biology has us women desiring men who are smarter, stronger, better than us - who can provide/protect us. Keep on thinking you can talk/think your way out of those roles, then scratch your head when you're not feeling horny for him anymore and/or he cheats on you and/or divorce happens.

[Gloria25]

Generalising on the basis of 2 is stretching it a bit, don't you think?

 

I responded to your question made to another poster about examples of women who before marriage were also lazy to even clean up after themselves.

 

I gave two examples. Do I need to pull up more?

[Gloria25]

Where in the world are you seeing this? I live in one of the biggest cities of the US. We have an enormous proportion of women in the workplace, we're mostly very well-educated and socially conscious, and we STILL give far more attention to a woman who's recently engaged than a woman who earns a major promotion. When was the last time you went to a lavish party with handprinted invitations and flowers for a woman who knocked a business presentation out of the park?

 

I just landed a new job at a really prestigious company. It's the time of my life and I'm psyched. You know what everyone wants to talk about? How my boyfriend is ring shopping and when he's going to pop the question. Don't get me wrong, he's the love of my life and I couldn't be happier, but to hear other people talk you'd think the ONLY thing that matters is the fact that I seem to have permanently landed a man. Western society still views women's grandest achievement only relative to other people---she found a man! she has a kid!---rather than anything she does for herself.

 

Because at the end of the day, what we do to propagate the species - something we were programmed to do (biology) rules. Sorry.

 

My dad, as much as a jerk he was, on his death bed told my brother he wished he made more time from us. So, have all the riches, education, great job/career, what matters more is the impression you leave on this earth - your children and family...your "legacy".

 

Families are what societies/communities are based upon. Raising kids and loving your man to keep that family in tact is a hard and a priceless job.

 

You know what I also liked about the 60 Minutes story I posted? Those women are powerhouse - they have "something" to offer the world in the workplace - yet, they are humble enough to recognize their value in the home....Yet, you have all these mainstream women who work at jobs where the day they get fired/quit/die, there's ten people in the unemployment office who can replace them, BUT, these women are so wrapped up in how they're more important in the workplace.

 

Look, no matter your job - even those powerhouse women in the 60 Minutes story - you are "replaceable". You are not important in the workplace. To your child? You will always be important. Children who come from abusive parents still struggle to connect with them. Children who are adopted always seek out and want a relationship with their "natural" parent. In the home you're irreplaceable.

 

So, the OP's article where there's these women sad and upset that they're at home picking up after some guy? Then please, I pray these women divorce and go out to the workplace where they so stupidly feel more valued, please go. And I pray more women who want to be brainwashed by the women's movement see the OP's article and forego marriage and spare innocent children and decent men from their stupidity and go to the workplace and get all the validation in the world they so ridiculously need.

 

The women's movement was about "choice", but the OP's article is intended to brainwash more women in the home that they're made out to do more than SAHW/SAHW. Look, you can't have it all. You can't work and be a wife/mother without someone/something falling to the waste side - and usually it's the family that suffers. But, like the women in the 60 Minutes story said - one thing at a time, the workplace (and women's movement) needs to be more flexible to allow women to "choose" to walk away from the workplace to have a family and tend to that family, and reenter later once their family is set (kids are older and gone to school).