To break up, or not and move in. Girlfriend w BPD

[LD1990]

You can also throw me in the "my BPD ex-girlfriend said our relationship was the first time she had these problems" camp! Somehow, she had never felt insecure with any guy before, until I came along. This, despite the fact that she told me all her other boyfriends cheated on her and she still stayed with them. I, on the other hand, didn't cheat and even tried to avoid looking in the direction of other women to prevent her "You checked her out, didn't you?" wrath (a lot of good that did me).

[Downtown]

I feel I never saw her fear of engulfment. It was like I could never have done too much for her.

Concerned, the push-away/pull-back cycle is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship and it will be evident in the frequent fighting you mention and the five breakups/makeups you talk about. I mention this because, whereas a BPDer's abandonment fear drives the pull-back phase of that cycle, her engulfment fear drives the push-away phase.

 

Granted, it is unlikely you will ever see her engulfment fear directly. That is, you likely will not hear her complaining that her self identity is so fragile that, during prolonged intimacy, she starts to feel suffocated and taken over by your personality. It would be very unusual for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness to tell you that.

 

Rather, following intimate evenings or great weekends spent together, she likely will complain that she feels you are trying to control her and change her. Or she will start a fight -- over absolutely nothing at all -- in order to push you away and stop the suffocating feeling. And, because her subconscious mind projects these painful feelings onto you, she will consciously believe that all the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth are absolutely true. The reason is that the engulfment feeling is so strong and painful that she is convinced it MUST be caused by you. In this way, a BPDer's subconscious works 24/7 to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality.

 

As to your statement that you "could never have done too much for her," I note that doing things for her (e.g., giving gifts and doing chores around the house) typically does NOT trigger the engulfment fear. Rather, that fear is triggered by drawing close in intimacy (sexual or nonsexual). Although BPDers crave intimacy like nearly everyone else, they cannot handle it for very long because their self identities are too weak and their personal boundaries are far too low.

 

At times, the engulfment fear may be so intense that the BPDer will feel like she is evaporating into thin air -- or like she is losing her identity by being merged into your strong personality. At a conscious level, however, she likely will feel that you somehow are trying to control her or dominate her.

[Emilia]

What I found hard was the provoking conflicts and not taking any responsibility for that part. Even that would be ok, you just decide they are an idiot and that's that. But he then pesters! 'Why what did I do, what did I say, it's all your fault' after periods of calm and reasonable conversation. With most people you can feel it building, you can pull back if you think they are getting annoyed with you. With a BPDer there is no warning. You are having a good time and something astonishingly cruel comes out of their mouth.

[salparadise]

We talked a while on the phone last night and she tried explaining to me she is this way because her last relationship she was abused by a narcissist.

 

No, she was in relationship with the narcissist because she's BPD. These two disorders are often like yen and yang for one another - a perfect storm of dysfunction.

 

 

She painted the picture that all our arguments have been because of lack of communication or lately her frustrations with me not being ready to move in. I guess that could touch on the fear of abandonment?

 

She is always going to have an excuse that directs the blame at you and away from her, or circumstances beyond her control that you should have prevented. Her ego probably won't tolerate the concept that it is her fault––the concept that she is fundamentally broken is something she actually knows subconsciously, but she has layers of complex defense mechanisms designed to deny that realization to her conscious mind.

 

Therefore, zero ability for any serious introspection... which, of course, is necessary in order for anything to change. This is part of the reason BPDers won't stay with therapy- they can't tolerate dealing with these things head on. Their strategy is to obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate.

 

I feel I never saw her fear of engulfment. It was like I could never have done too much for her.

 

As others mentioned, when she suddenly splits during happy times- that's the result of her fear of engulfment.

 

A big part of me wants to believe her. I feel so bad for her. I want to believe that she will change once her environment changes, and that if she went to therapy and we went to couples therapy and learned how to communicate better, that things could work and she could find peace and be happy.

 

Yes, of course you do. It's painful to break up, and your psyche want to do something in the short term to assuage the pain and suffering. The idealization phase is extremely attractive––hard to resist.

 

 

I want to believe she does not have any personality disorders and has really just had a tough time lately. She told me she was never like this before her ex. She was never argumentative or negative or paranoid. She told me she has relationship ptsd from that guy. I wish she sorted this out before we started dating..

 

You need to separate your thinking from your feeling to get through this. Try this... think of your cognitive mind and emotional mind as two people, a parent and child, having a conversation. The emotional mind is like a child trying to manipulate to get what it wants right now. The cognitive mind is the parent who understands the weaknesses of the child and lovingly imposes discipline, understanding and helps the child learn self-soothing and acceptance. I've found that this works particularly well while taking a brisk walk.

 

Your cognitive mind needs to be in charge now. You know the dysfunction in this relationship is pervasive and unfixable. If I had had access to this forum/thread/resources thirty years ago my life would have been very different. Don't soft-pedal what you've learned here. You can be compassionate without going backwards.

[Emilia]

 

You need to separate your thinking from your feeling to get through this. Try this... think of your cognitive mind and emotional mind as two people, a parent and child, having a conversation. The emotional mind is like a child trying to manipulate to get what it wants right now. The cognitive mind is the parent who understands the weaknesses of the child and lovingly imposes discipline, understanding and helps the child learn self-soothing and acceptance. I've found that this works particularly well while taking a brisk walk.

 

Your cognitive mind needs to be in charge now. You know the dysfunction in this relationship is pervasive and unfixable. If I had had access to this forum/thread/resources thirty years ago my life would have been very different. Don't soft-pedal what you've learned here. You can be compassionate without going backwards.

 

This is very good advice. When I separate myself from difficult people I'm attached to, I think of myself as hugging the child inside me, protecting her from harm. This helps me when I see the children in others - which is what brings the caretaker out in me.

[duncsvoice]

This thread is eye opening, truly. I'm recovering again from my ex of two years (broke up 6 weeks ago) getting back in contact and sending me reeling.

 

Over the two years together, the jealous RAGES blew me away, I had to cut friends out of my life because of her, I walked on eggshells, hid things out of fear she'd take them the wrong way. I'd make excuses for her behaviour, like her hitting me ("it's ok, she has depression!"). The last time we were together we had an absolutely wonderful evening, before a spilt drink caused an almighty breakdown and her sleeping in the car. I just could never work out why.

 

I entered the relationship a confident, funny, happy guy. I leave it emotionally wrecked, withdrawn, argumentative, desperate to rebuild my lost friendships. I'm a shell of the man I once was. She's with a rebound guy now. It hurt hearing this, but I kind of feel sorry for the guy. He'll no doubt be drawn in by her. She's intoxicating. Beautiful. The sex was incredible. But he'll get the same treatment, and he has no idea it's coming.

 

Goodbye my beautiful, you were my best friend, but the storms were just too strong.

[Otter2569]

I hate to say it but reading this thread is almost therapeutic. It is comforting to know I am not / was not the only person to be taken down by a BPD'er.

 

I thank Salparadise and Downtown for their insight and wisdom because they helped me tremendously. They know their stuff!

 

My only consolation was that her meltdown in the end was so epic that it illustrated to everyone (her family, my family, the 1 or 2 friends she had, her co workers...) that she was clearly out of control.

 

It took relationship therapy for me to really see the light and to give me the strength to walk away. Well I was clearly leaving anyways but it allowed me to understand what was happening to me / with her and that empower me.

[Downtown]

The last time we were together we had an absolutely wonderful evening, before a spilt drink caused an almighty breakdown and her sleeping in the car. I just could never work out why.

DV, as you now realize, the spilt drink was not the cause of her tantrum but, rather, only her excuse for doing it. If she has strong BPD traits, her very WORST behavior will tend to occur immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times. Although a BPDer craves intimacy like nearly everyone else, she cannot handle it for very long, as I tried to explain in post 27 above.

 

Due to the engulfment caused by intimacy (and by her weak self identity), she will quickly start to feel suffocated by you. And, because she lacks self awareness, her subconscious will project the painful feelings onto you. At a conscious level, then, she will truly believe that you are responsible for her pain and unhappiness. The result is that it is common for a BPDer to start a fight -- over absolutely nothing at all -- immediately after an intimate evening or in the middle of a wonderful vacation.

[Otter2569]

Downtown, your last post helped clear up a lot of what always confused me: why would she start a fight in the middle or at then end of our best times together? It became so predictable (the fight that is) and it ruined so many wonderful evenings. She would tend to blame it on the drinking.

 

The other thing is that I would get so enraged at her that I would leave her and go home - an hours drive. I did it in the middle of a snow storm and at all hours of the night. It honestly felt as if she was provoking me to leave which plays into her abandonment issue?

[Downtown]

It honestly felt as if she was provoking me to leave which plays into her abandonment issue?

Otter, if she has strong BPD traits then, yes, that is exactly how the push-away phase of the push-pull cycle feels. It feels like she is deliberately provoking you to leave. Most of the time, however, it is not deliberate because -- at a conscious level -- the BPDer really is convinced that the outrageous accusation coming out of her mouth is absolutely true.

 

As I noted earlier, the engulfment experienced during intimacy is so scary and suffocating to a BPDer that her subconscious mind will immediately put the pain outside her body. It is much easier to deal with a pain/fear that is outside the body rather than inside. In this way, she projects the suffocating feeling onto YOU. Because that projection occurs entirely subconsciously, she is unaware that it is originating from inside herself. She really does believe that it is originating from you. A BPDer experiences feelings so intense that she is convinced they MUST be true and are an accurate reflection of reality.

 

Given that the pain or unhappiness MUST be coming from you, the logical part of a BPDer's mind then has the task of explaining how you have managed to harm her. This, then, is the motivation driving the creation of those absurd allegations. Because she is convinced you are responsible, all the logic in the world won't change her conclusion that you must be guilty. Yet, because her "rationale" for explaining is absurd, it sometimes is possible to convince her that her rationale makes no sense by showing her strong evidence to the contrary.

 

If you go down that road, however, what happens next is that she simply replaces rationale #1 with an equally absurd rationale #2. And, if you are persistent in arguing for another hour, she may abandon #2 and replace it with rationale #3. Finally, if you still have the energy to spend another hour disproving #3, what typically happens is that the BPDer immediately returns to arguing rationale #1 -- as though the two of you had never discussed it before. In this way, it is common for BPDers to make a complete circle -- ending up defending an absurd argument that, only three hours earlier, they had admitted is baseless and wrong.

 

If this discussion of confused thinking makes BPDers sound bizarre and crazy to you, Otter, please keep in mind that ALL of us -- even the healthiest of adults -- experience these very same thought distortions when experiencing intense feelings. Indeed, we all have experienced these distortions so many hundreds of times that, by the time we enter high school, we already know our judgment flies out the window whenever we get very angry, very happy, or very infatuated.

 

This is why, when we're very angry, we try to keep our mouths shut until we have a chance to cool down and think more clearly. And this is why, when we're very infatuated, we try to wait a year or two before buying the ring. Hence, we healthy adults differ from BPDers only in degree, not in kind. Because BPDers cannot properly regulate their emotions, they experience intense feelings far more frequently than the rest of us.

[LD1990]

Downtown, I sure wish I'd read some of your posts about a year and a half ago. Literally everything that went wrong in my relationship made so much sense when I realized that my ex-girlfriend likely has BPD. I never understood why we'd be so happy and then she'd just, in my opinion, ruin things. When I saw some of the stuff you wrote it was like a light bulb going off in my head. The constant back and forth between awesome highs and ridiculously bad lows. How we could get so close just for her to all of a sudden flip out on me for something silly. Thanks for all you've posted about BPD because I've read quite a bit. It still bums me out that my relationship didn't work out, but I feel like at least now I understand what was happening with my ex.

[Otter2569]

With therapy I was able to try and set boundaries (it rarely worked) and identify that she was projecting a lot of her issues on to me. This in tern shifted the balance of power and our fighting took on a new tone...it also sped up the disintegration process.

 

Instead of being the punching bag and being frustrated with the situation I was able to stand up and say:

 

That's your insecurity....

That's controlling....

That's your trust issue...

I am a grown man, you are not my mother

I need to take time away from this...

 

Being able to make some sense of what was happening and to be able to confidently stand up for your self was the perfect way to end this.

 

Sadly I still miss the amazingly wonderful, care free, sexy woman I thought I had. Life goes on

[PLT]

 

If you go down that road, however, what happens next is that she simply replaces rationale #1 with an equally absurd rationale #2. And, if you are persistent in arguing for another hour, she may abandon #2 and replace it with rationale #3. Finally, if you still have the energy to spend another hour disproving #3, what typically happens is that the BPDer immediately returns to arguing rationale #1 -- as though the two of you had never discussed it before. In this way, it is common for BPDers to make a complete circle -- ending up defending an absurd argument that, only three hours earlier, they had admitted is baseless and wrong.

 

This part really resonates. My ex would constantly bring up old gripes she had in the latest tirades of abuse, despite that fact that these old gripes were, as far as I was concerned, dealt with long ago. She would bring it back up saying "You did this", when in actuality, we had already established months, or sometimes even years prior, that I hadn't done whatever she had decided I had done at all.

[frigginlost]

If you go down that road, however, what happens next is that she simply replaces rationale #1 with an equally absurd rationale #2. And, if you are persistent in arguing for another hour, she may abandon #2 and replace it with rationale #3. Finally, if you still have the energy to spend another hour disproving #3, what typically happens is that the BPDer immediately returns to arguing rationale #1 -- as though the two of you had never discussed it before. In this way, it is common for BPDers to make a complete circle -- ending up defending an absurd argument that, only three hours earlier, they had admitted is baseless and wrong.

 

Downtown my friend, once again you have put into words what folks really need to hear. Amazing clarity in what you have stated and one of the (many) things that plays on a "caregiver personality type" when dealing with someone with untreated BPD.

 

I don't know how your ex behaved when she would start the "rationale circle" you explain above, but my ex was an absolute Master at it. When we first started counseling to improve our "communication" she was truly masterful at using that tactic to "throw off the scent" of what the counselor was trying to bring to light to my ex in her actions with me. It all went downhill from there with the counselor as once my ex saw any weakness in the counselor, she would absolutely manipulate, confuse, and walk all over her.

 

I did a ton of reading on BPD and when things lined up regarding her having it, I actually went to her ex husband and asked. It was only then that I found out that she was full blown BPD. For the longest time I thought it was *I* that was the issue with us. No matter the issue, I always wanted to solve it. It's taken a ton of time to learn that my shortcomings in my personality are what was a perfect fit for her BPD.

 

As I grew stronger and grew my boundaries with her, it got to the point where I could "predict" when her manipulation tactics and rationale circling was about to start. The switch would flip in her (could be something as small as dish put back in the wrong spot) and she would pause ever so briefly, and then snap. I would immediately try to "talk her down", and as I was doing so, she would look me dead in the eye.... and right through the back of my head. Her gears were turning. I knew at that very instant the rationale circle and manipulation was going to start. And it did. Boy did it ever... :-)

 

Strangely, I'll always love that woman, and even today I miss her at times. But I've learned that at her age 47 she will never change. She is beyond the point of wanting to fix herself, and I feel sorry for her, because it has got to be hell on earth to live with what she lives with every day...

[Downtown]

I don't know how your ex behaved when she would start the "rationale circle" you explain above, but my ex was an absolute Master at it.

Friggin, the way it worked with my exW was that, as soon as I challenged rationale #1, she quickly obtained rationales #2 and #3 by pulling out her entire list of all my past infractions. Because BPDers need frequent validation of their false self image of being "The Victim," they all carry such a list in their minds -- being careful to commit to memory every one of their partner's mistakes (real or imagined). As with other BPDers, my exW would not hesitate to use some incident occurring 10 or 15 years ago as an explanation for why I must be responsible for the unhappiness she feels at this very moment.

 

When selecting these rationales from her lengthy list, the general rule was that the farther in the past the incident had occurred the more frequently she would use it in the fights she started. The charm of the 10- and 15-year-old events, of course, is that they were such distant memories that neither of us could remember what had actually been said. Those old events thus had an intrinsic quality of being irrefutable.

 

Strangely, I'll always love that woman, and even today I miss her at times.

Likewise, I still love my exW and occasionally miss her, even though I went NC years ago. It is very difficult to stop loving a four year old -- or an adult behaving like one.

[Otter2569]

Do you think the BPDers knows or even care that they destroyed a good thing?

 

I am not ashamed to admit that I loved that woman with all my heart. When it was good it was outstanding and nothing like either of us had ever experienced. Several times strangers came up to us to say how truly happy we looked. The fun, adventure, killer sex, the sharing....that eventually turned into a living, bottomless, hell.

 

Personally I'd like to think she has some remorse and regret. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

[Downtown]

Do you think the BPDers knows or even care that they destroyed a good thing?

Otter, we are all "BPDers" to some degree. The answer to your question therefore largely depends on how severe the person's BPD traits are. When those traits are very strong, the BPDer is filled with so much shame and self loathing that her subconscious will work 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality.

 

As you already know, this is why BPDers are notorious for having a very low level of self awareness. Yet, even when traits are strong, it is common for BPDers to have a vague awareness that something is not right with their thinking -- and to get rare "moments of clarity," wherein they will see for a few hours how badly they had behaved.

 

My exW, for example, experienced that clarity on 5 or 6 occasions (lasting about a day each) during our 15-year marriage. It always occurred when there was a terrible crisis (e.g., me discovering that she had run up a balance of $5,000 on another secret credit card). That is, it always occurred during a breakdown brought on by her great fear that I was about to abandon her. Moreover, the clarity always lasted for only a day -- and had no lasting effects whatsoever.

 

I should mention that a small share of BPDers -- I would guess about 5% -- exhibit a normal level of self awareness and are painfully aware of the damage they have caused. Over the past 8 years, I've communicated with over a hundred of them online. Indeed, you will find a number of these self aware BPDers posting here on LoveShack. I consider them to be rare jewels and am so glad to see them sharing their experiences with other members. You will find several of them posting in Harmony's thread, for example.

 

Generally, the abused ex-partners of BPDers are thrilled to have an opportunity to converse with these self-aware BPDers. I know that I am. Just think about it: you spend years living with a woman who cannot see the elephant that is destroying the room. And, when you take her to a psychologist for numerous sessions, he cannot see the elephant either -- or, even if he does, he won't acknowledge seeing it because he knows that she will immediately quit therapy if he mentions it.

 

And he knows her insurance company will refuse to pay for therapy if the elephant is mentioned in the "diagnosis." What a wonderful experience it is, then, to finally be able to converse with someone who not only sees the damned elephant but also has stopped feeding it.

[Otter2569]

That makes sense. My experience with this woman was one of the best and worst of my life. I never imagined I would have to deal with this type of garbage and abuse...especially from something that started off so wonderfully.

 

At least we were able to walk away. They will live with this inner demon the rest of their lives.

[mrsoftheart]

I am very greatful for stumbling upon this thread. I am in a very similar situation although not all alike. My girlfriend gets irrationally jealous over a lot of stuff. Last time it really happened was a live over one and a half month ago. She got jealous on me and my littlesister's relationship. We've always been quite close and sometimes my sister is having a hard time of setting and understanding boundaries. We've always had quite a free relationship but some things have made my girlfriend jealous although there is absolutely nothing to be jealous about as it is my littlesister.

 

Anyway a long waffle short, I (mistakingly) told my girlfriend to hash it out with my littlesister as the two of them were friends and I thought their relationship could take it. They had a talk a month ago and both told me that all was fine. The weekend after they were both at the same party and my girlfriend tells me everything went fine and my sister keeps telling me how my girlfriend kept ignoring her at the party.

 

My sister wrongly involved my parents so now they have taken a stand against my girlfriend.

 

At this time it is important for me to point out that my girlfriend often reacts wrongfully as a BPDer and she kept wanting to pick fights with me over my sister's behaviour that made he jealous. I finally had enough and said that she was over the line but she kept turning it around to me not wanting to listen to her problems and keep saying that I've let her down (which I feel haven't).

 

Now here's the twist because reading through all your posts I though I had my answer, leave her and move on. She's been my little social project for a year and a half now and I always felt like I could save her and make her a better person.

 

Oh well back to the twist. The twist is that now my parents have excluded her from our family due to what my sister has told them. She has never had a chance to explain herself which I feel is unfair. I have kept saying that her irrational problem has caused all of this but now the problem apparently has shifted because she keeps crying and crying and constantly tells me that she is the one with something at stake here (e.g. losing me). My parents and my sister refuse to even talk to my gilfriend at the moment and my girlfriend is not shy on telling me how unfair this is and I agree but some part of me can't help feel that she has made her own bed. i just feel she is being unfairly treated and I am having a hard time not picking her side.

 

Prior to this I had voiced my concerns with her behaviour and telling my friends quietly that I am not sure that I see myself ending up witth this girl who at times is loving, sexy, beautiful smart and caring. I told myself that I would take a few months to see if things got better between her and I but due to this it has remained a rollercoaster ride. I never get the quiet time to think for myself what I really want. Even my friends have told me to get out of it

 

I am a family man and will almost always pick my family first as I can't live the rest of my life not having a normal and healthy relationship with my family. She knows this. But now I, as I have done before, feel terribly sorry for her and how my family is treating her and I can't bear leaving her at the moment. She is constantly crying due my family treating her that bad.

 

I have tried breaking up a few times but I always end up feeling bad for her not having anyone in her world if i leave her (she's got a very bad relationship towards her mother). Last time I broke up she begged and begged me to stay with her, she simply would'nt accept it. And from then on I have really had a hard time figuring out whether I want to stay with or not.

 

I know, I should probably have created my own thread. I just wanted a quick piece of advice and tell concerned111 and everyrbody else reading here, that I understand your situation.

[mightycpa]

Uh, it's a DISORDER. Unless you have a similar handicap, or a wish for you and/or your childrens' lives to be unnecessarily difficult, then it's time to go.

[Downtown]

I know, I should probably have created my own thread.

Actually, you did create a thread last month, Softheart. I therefore responded in your thread. As you will see there, I agree with MightyCPA that you should walk away from the toxic relationship you are describing.

[bluefeather]

Considering concerned111 has not said anything else in this thread, I am wondering if he ended up getting back with this person. If you did, good luck to you.