What does LS think about these "rules" for keeping a woman's attraction?

[Wewon]

I have always wondered, if you re-read this statement, carefully, why would you walk all over a guy...in the first place, hmm?

 

Re-read it....

 

"I just can't respect a guy that I can walk all over."

 

It sounds like you probably purposely or even pre-meditatively walk over men, yes? It's by admission that you do this?

 

That's like saying, "I can't respect someone I can steal from." Why would you steal from them in the first place. Makes you sound like an instigator.

 

A person who doesn't walk all over people, in general, is the one to be respected, yes?

 

If a woman says, "I can't respect a man I can walk all over!" My first response would be, "WHY are you walking all over him?"

 

I agree with this. Noone likes a person that they can walk over. But this sentiment begs the question, "How do you know if you can walk all over a person unless you're the kind of person that takes jabs, pushes boundaries, ask for too much, offers too little and otherwise tries to walk all over people?"

 

Even if one lays this at the feet of "being strong" isn't one of the traits of a good person understanding that others may not be as strong as them and therefore to temper yourself? If a person is physically strong and we see him buffaloing people around him isn't he generally regarded as an a-hole?

 

The reason that this sticks out to me is because I wonder if the "rules" in the OP, as dysfunctional as they may be, are actually a response/counter point to other, more accepted dysfunctions.

[Wewon]

Regarding the OP itself, reading that list of rules made me cringe a bit for 2 reasons.

 

1) They look like a person that took every bad experience in dating and essentially built an entire philosophy around them complete with its own internal logic. A person doing this would have to be constantly keyed up and refuse to give into anything like compassion, empathy or otherwise letting their guard down.

 

2) I suspect that it will work better than most people want to admit. Just like most people would be indignant if you suggested that the reason that they drive their model of car, wear a particular brand of clothes or even voted for a particular candidate was for some shallow sheep like reason like fitting in or mimicking a favorite celeb, most don't want to admit to be a little susceptible to #3 or #5, or #12. Its embarrassing and offends our better selves.

 

I also think that any woman that would subject herself to all 16 rules would likely have too many issues for any man to deal with who is trying to follow this list.

[spriggan2]

Ugh...the whole "walk all over thing" is pretty maddening to me as a relationship newbie and one who has experenced it first hand. I agree passiveness/submissiveness is an unnatractive quality. I agree it's tough to identify at the onset of a relationship, but I get the impression that many of these women declaring "I don't respect a man who let's me walk all over them" don't do the decent thing and leave early or work with their partner on boundaries. No. They actually proceed with the walking all over, aka using, abusing, nitpicking, disrespecting etc...until they get bored and dump the person or find someone else.

 

And then to proclaim self righteously that they aren't attracted to men who let themselves get walked over, as if submissiveness is a contemptible act. It's really not. Yes it's likely fear-based and maybe dishonest on some level. I see it partially as a cowardly forfeiture of power and responsibility, but what is really scummy is exploiting someone because you see you can, treating them like crap and then actually having the nerve to be scornful of THEM for their behavior. Remember YOU are the one who is actually hurting the person and leaving deep scars. In my case I cared so much about this girl, wanted her to be happy, tried to accomodate her wishes thinking "ok she is voicing her desires, I have the capacity to make this particular sacrifice, so no sweat, I will do it for her and her alone." I had no idea she was literally just testing to see how far she could stretch me, for no reason? Wtf? What in the name of sociopath is that? When I was so vulnerable.

 

And ok its not all women who do this but it must be many. Why else do you think there are all these disillusioned men gravitating to creeds with such mysoginistic overtones as the one in the OP? Seriously it's not the rejection that stings (I got dumped for other very valid reasons), it's the mistreatment.

 

Anyway I've learned my lesson. I can only change myself and become more guarded and assertive and judicious in my generosity, but man it really sucks when you want to love someone and give your all to them just to have them burn you. Where is the empathy?

Edited February 26, 2016 by spriggan2

[morrowrd]

I don't really follow ANY of those rules. Honestly I think their ineffective when it comes to women. Following some act, never works because it's all mechanical, it's not you. Being yourself is the only real thing you can do easily. Being a sham, is unattractive and very easy to spot. My advice? Work on your communications skills so when you are lucky enough to get a first date, engage her and ask her questions. Get her talking and get to know her. THAT works...not this bs list you've posted. Then once you are dating her, treat her well. Treat her like she matters, care about her emotions, not just connect with them. Above all, treat her with respect... Respect given is respect gained. That does NOT mean becoming a doormat, if that's happening, just walk away and start over. This list is ridiculous, it won't work. Don't kid yourself....being "bad" is either in your blood or its not. Pretending will make you appear pathetic. Don't do it to yourself.

[AMJ]

I had no idea she was literally just testing to see how far she could stretch me, for no reason? Wtf? What in the name of sociopath is that? When I was so vulnerable.

 

And ok its not all women who do this but it must be many. Why else do you think there are all these disillusioned men gravitating to creeds with such mysoginistic overtones as the one in the OP? Seriously it's not the rejection that stings (I got dumped for other very valid reasons), it's the mistreatment.

 

Anyway I've learned my lesson. I can only change myself and become more guarded and assertive and judicious in my generosity, but man it really sucks when you want to love someone and give your all to them just to have them burn you. Where is the empathy?

 

I don't know the particulars of your last relationship, but is it possible she was also very immature? It's not the best excuse, but sometimes immaturity = selfishness. Seeing "how far you'd go" to please her was not perhaps intentional but the same line of why toddlers push their parents to the limit...to learn boundaries. And just like toddlers learn to respect their parents when they learn boundaries, so do significant others. And friends, or bosses, coworkers, anyone in life who tries to manipulate our boundaries.

 

People by nature are always self-interested, and in relationships we need to learn when to give and take from each other to balance our own needs. You never get to receive if you don't give, but if you're in a relationship with someone who only takes, you also never receive.

 

Why do you think there are so many women out there who do this?

 

I think that the aftermath of a painful relationship is that it exaggerates our perceptions of dating in general. For example, the last guy I dated actually lied to me about having a girlfriend. Yep. For two months I helped him cheat on his not very intelligent girlfriend. Was I burned by this experience? Hell yes! Does it mean that all men are *******s like him? Of course not.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Ugh...the whole "walk all over thing" is pretty maddening to me as a relationship newbie and one who has experenced it first hand. I agree passiveness/submissiveness is an unnatractive quality. I agree it's tough to identify at the onset of a relationship, but I get the impression that many of these women declaring "I don't respect a man who let's me walk all over them" don't do the decent thing and leave early or work with their partner on boundaries. No. They actually proceed with the walking all over, aka using, abusing, nitpicking, disrespecting etc...until they get bored and dump the person or find someone else.

 

And then to proclaim self righteously that they aren't attracted to men who let themselves get walked over, as if submissiveness is a contemptible act. It's really not. Yes it's likely fear-based and maybe dishonest on some level. I see it partially as a cowardly forfeiture of power and responsibility, but what is really scummy is exploiting someone because you see you can, treating them like crap and then actually having the nerve to be scornful of THEM for their behavior. Remember YOU are the one who is actually hurting the person and leaving deep scars. In my case I cared so much about this girl, wanted her to be happy, tried to accomodate her wishes thinking "ok she is voicing her desires, I have the capacity to make this particular sacrifice, so no sweat, I will do it for her and her alone." I had no idea she was literally just testing to see how far she could stretch me, for no reason? Wtf? What in the name of sociopath is that? When I was so vulnerable.

 

And ok its not all women who do this but it must be many. Why else do you think there are all these disillusioned men gravitating to creeds with such mysoginistic overtones as the one in the OP? Seriously it's not the rejection that stings (I got dumped for other very valid reasons), it's the mistreatment.

 

Anyway I've learned my lesson. I can only change myself and become more guarded and assertive and judicious in my generosity, but man it really sucks when you want to love someone and give your all to them just to have them burn you. Where is the empathy?

 

 

Right, and the women who make this statement, as scary as it sounds...don't SEE it, which is where I think the whole "red pill/blue pill" analogy comes in. They don't realize what they've just said...but yet, some of us picked up on it right away.

[joseb]

Surely you have far worse locals already living in Australia.

I think the Australian stereotypical male you see advertised on tv and movies is greatly exaggerated.

[Jame22]

1) Respect her

2) Respect yourself

3) Be kind

4) Be warm

5) Be a little bit mysterious

6) Make your intentions known

7) Don't over pursue

[Woggle]

Respect her and treat her well and also respect yourself and treat yourself well. If this doesn't work you are in the wrong relationship. If you have to pull this kind of crap with the women you date then you need to find a better quality of women because healthy ones that make good partners appreciate when a man is good to them and don't view it as a sign of weakness. We are supposed to treat those we love well and make then happy which in no way is the same as letting them mistreat you.

[Lady2163]

Preface - I'm a very passive (male) individual who failed at my first relationship partially by letting a women walk all over me, not taking enough leadership/power. Now trying to correct my behavior and become more assertive, thus looking for advice on the less submissive side of the behavioral spectrum. Came across this list, showed it to some friends who thought it was right on the money. Goes against many preconceptions I had about relationships, but I'm curious to know what you guys think.

 

====

 

The Sixteen Commandments Of Poon

 

I. Never say ‘I Love You’ first

 

Women want to feel like they have to overcome obstacles to win a man’s heart. They crave the challenge of capturing the interest of a man who has other women competing for his attention, and eventually prevailing over his grudging reluctance to award his committed exclusivity. The man who gives his emotional world away too easily robs women of the satisfaction of earning his love. Though you may be in love with her, don’t say it before she has said it. Show compassionate restraint for her need to struggle toward yin fulfillment. Inspire her to take the leap for you, and she’ll return the favor a thousandfold.

 

II. Make her jealous

 

Flirt with other women in front of her. Do not dissuade other women from flirting with you. Women will never admit this but jealousy excites them. The thought of you turning on another woman will arouse her sexually. No girl wants a man that no other woman wants. The partner who harnesses the gale storm of jealousy controls the direction of the relationship.

 

III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

 

Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

 

IV. Don’t play by her rules

 

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

 

V. Adhere to the golden ratio

 

Give your woman 2/3 of everything she gives you. For every three calls or texts, give her two back. Three declarations of love earn two in return. Three gifts; two nights out. Give her two displays of affection and stop until she has answered with three more. When she speaks, you reply with fewer words. When she emotes, you emote less. The idea behind the golden ratio is twofold — it establishes your greater value by making her chase you, and it demonstrates that you have the self-restraint to avoid getting swept up in her personal dramas. Refraining from reciprocating everything she does for you in equal measure instills in her the proper attitude of belief in your higher status. In her deepest loins it is what she truly wants.

VI. Keep her guessing

 

True to their inscrutable natures, women ask questions they don’t really want direct answers to. Woe be the man who plays it straight — his fate is the suffering of the beta. Evade, tease, obfuscate. She thrives when she has to imagine what you’re thinking about her, and withers when she knows exactly how you feel. A woman may want financial and family security, but she does not want passion security. In the same manner, when she has displeased you, punish swiftly, but when she has done you right, reward slowly. Reward her good behavior intermittently and unpredictably and she will never tire of working hard to please you.

 

VII. Always keep two in the kitty

 

Never allow yourself to be a “kept man”. A man with options is a man without need. It builds confidence and encourages boldness with women if there is another woman, a safety net, to catch you in case you slip and risk a breakup, divorce, or a lost prospect, leading to loneliness and a grinding dry spell. A woman knows once she has slept with a man she has abdicated a measure of her power; when she has fallen in love with him she has surrendered nearly all of it. But love is ephemeral and with time she may rediscover her power and threaten to leave you. It is her final trump card. Withdrawing all her love and all her body in an instant will rend your soul if you are faced with contemplating the empty abyss alone. Knowing there is another you can turn to for affection will fortify your will and satisfy your manhood.

VIII. Say you’re sorry only when absolutely necessary

 

Do not say you’re sorry for every wrong thing you do. It is a posture of submission that no man should reflexively adopt, no matter how alpha he is. Apologizing increases the demand for more apologies. She will come to expect your contrition, like a cat expects its meal at a set time each day. And then your value will lower in her eyes. Instead, if you have done something wrong, you should acknowledge your guilt in a glancing way without resorting to the actual words “I’m sorry.” Pull the Bill Clinton maneuver and say “Mistakes were made” or tell her you “feel bad” about what you did. You are granted two freebie “I’m sorry”s for the life of your relationship; use them wisely.

 

IX. Connect with her emotions

 

Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendevous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.

 

X. Ignore her beauty

 

The man who trains his mind to subdue the reward centers of his brain when reflecting upon a beautiful female face will magically transform his interactions with women. His apprehension and self-consciousness will melt away, paving the path for more honest and self-possessed interactions with the objects of his desire. This is one reason why the greatest lotharios drown in more love than they can handle — through positive experiences with so many beautiful women they lose their awe of beauty and, in turn, their powerlessness under its spell. It will help you acquire the right frame of mind to stop using the words hot, cute, gorgeous, or beautiful to describe girls who turn you on. Instead, say to yourself “she’s interesting” or “she might be worth getting to know”. Never compliment a girl on her looks, especially not a girl you aren’t f-cking. Turn off that part of your brain that wants to put them on pedestals. Further advanced training to reach this state of unawed Zen transcendence is to sleep with many MANY attractive women (try to avoid sleeping with a lot of ugly women if you don’t want to regress). Soon, a Jedi lover you will be.

 

XI. Be irrationally self-confident

 

No matter what your station in life, stride through the world without apology or excuse. It does not matter if objectively you are not the best man a woman can get; what matters is that you think and act like you are. Women have a dog’s instinct for uncovering weakness in men; don’t make it easy for them. Self-confidence, warranted or not, triggers submissive emotional responses in women. Irrational self-confidence will get you more pussy than rational defeatism.

 

XII. Maximize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses

 

In the betterment of ourselves as men we attract women into our orbit. To accomplish this gravitational pull as painlessly and efficiently as possible, you must identify your natural talents and shortcomings and parcel your efforts accordingly. If you are a gifted jokester, don’t waste time and energy trying to raise your status in philosophical debate. If you write well but dance poorly, don’t kill yourself trying to expand your manly influence on the dancefloor. Your goal should be to attract women effortlessly, so play to your strengths no matter what they are; there is a groupie for every male endeavor. Except World of Warcraft.

 

XIII. Err on the side of too much boldness, rather than too little

 

Touching a woman inappropriately on the first date will get you further with her than not touching her at all. Don’t let a woman’s faux indignation at your boldness sway you; they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known. You don’t have to be an *******, but if you have no choice, being an inconsiderate ******* beats being a polite beta, every time.

 

XIV. F-ck her good

 

F-ck her like it’s your last f-ck. And hers. F-ck her so good, so hard, so wantonly, so profligately that she is left a quivering, sparking mass of shaking flesh and sex fluids. Drain her of everything, then drain her some more. Kiss her all over, make love to her all night, and hold her close in the morning. Own her body, own her gratitude, own her love. If you don’t know how, learn to give her squirting orgasms.

 

XV. Maintain your state control

 

You are an oak tree. You will not be manipulated by crying, yelling, lying, head games, sexual withdrawal, jealousy ploys, pity plays, sh-t tests, hot/cold/hot/cold, disappearing acts, or guilt trips. She will rain and thunder all around you and you will shelter her until her storm passes. She will not drag you into her chaos or uproot you. When you have mastery over yourself, you will have mastery over her.

 

XVI. Never be afraid to lose her

 

You must not fear. Fear is the love-killer. Fear is the ego-triumph that brings abject loneliness. You will face your fear. You will permit it to pass over and through you. And when your ego-fear is gone you will turn and face your lover, and only your heart will remain. You will walk away from her when she has violated your integrity, and you will let her walk when her heart is closed to you. She who can destroy you, controls you. Don’t give her that power over yourself. Love yourself before you love her.

 

Wow. I know I'm old, but any man who flirts with other women I front of me, probably isn't getting another date. I've had those blind dates from OLD where I've told the guy after 2 or 3 dates that it won't work because he flirted with waitress or bartender.

 

I also don't play the 2/3 game. Had a guy who did that to me. Next time he tried to get in touch with me, I waited four days to get back to him, only to tell him we wouldn't work. This was a pattern for him, not just a one-off

[Summer3]

Wow. I know I'm old, but any man who flirts with other women I front of me, probably isn't getting another date. I've had those blind dates from OLD where I've told the guy after 2 or 3 dates that it won't work because he flirted with waitress or bartender.

 

I also don't play the 2/3 game. Had a guy who did that to me. Next time he tried to get in touch with me, I waited four days to get back to him, only to tell him we wouldn't work. This was a pattern for him, not just a one-off

 

These are just disgusting games that make people bitter and waste a lot of time.

[spriggan2]

Why do you think there are so many women out there who do this?

 

Why do I think many women walk all over men? Because the evidence is out there, you just have to google it. Testimonies all over the place, and it's so common that people theorize women are genetically wired to do this.

 

I won't get into any of that because I don't really care. Empathy should be able to override any genetic or natural predisposition for cruelty/selfishness, and if it doesn't then you're a bad person.

 

And yes, I recognize there are other trends: the bad boys, the cheaters, the abusers, the psychos. All types of men and women treating their partners like crap. At least with them the character flaw is recognized. But all this disproportionate disdain coming FROM the walk-all-over types and FROM outsiders, directed TOWARDS the partner serving as a doormat, as if that person is the bad guy. I mean I get why they can be blamed for their own misery (after the first time), but good grief, give me a break with that BS indignation.

 

I think that the aftermath of a painful relationship is that it exaggerates our perceptions of dating in general.

Yes this is true. I am still very bitter.

[Lady2163]

Why do I think many women walk all over men? Because the evidence is out there, you just have to google it. Testimonies all over the place, and it's so common that people theorize women are genetically wired to do this.

 

I won't get into any of that because I don't really care. Empathy should be able to override any genetic or natural predisposition for cruelty/selfishness, and if it doesn't then you're a bad person.

 

And yes, I recognize there are other trends: the bad boys, the cheaters, the abusers, the psychos. All types of men and women treating their partners like crap. At least with them the character flaw is recognized. But all this disproportionate disdain coming FROM the walk-all-over types and FROM outsiders, directed TOWARDS the partner serving as a doormat, as if that person is the bad guy. I mean I get why they can be blamed for their own misery (after the first time), but good grief, give me a break with that BS indignation.

 

 

Yes this is true. I am still very bitter.

 

I'm sure there are some men from my past that could feel like I walked all over them.

 

If a man always places the woman in the "power position" this can happen.

 

1. Where do you want to eat? I don't care.

2. What do you want to do this weekend? It doesn't matter.

3. What movie do you want to see? You choose.

4. What should we give so-and-so? Whatever you want.

 

I had a man who was pretty consistent with questions like this. In the bedroom he never failed to roll us over so I was on top. After the first few times we had sex, he was pretty lazy and selfish in the bedroom.

 

20 years later I've learned to walk away from these men. I don't want to be the mommy or the planner and social director.

 

Did I emasculate them or did they do it to themselves? It's a bit of both.

[Jabron1]

Okay, I've read your story.

 

The first thing I'll tell you is that your experiences are paramount. Don't let anyone here or elsewhere tell you that they don't count and allow them to sell you on a comfortable fiction.

 

As for the list, I have my own 'rules' regarding dating, which I might even post on here. But, I agree with a lot of what is there. The only thing questionable is the tone and diction. Some of it is just common sense such as rule #3.

 

You need to understand that everyone is playing a game. Even the nicest 'nice-guy' is playing a game that he thinks will be his best chance at receiving a woman's affection.

 

Women are playing a game too. One that best suits their own need, either for sex or security - you will encounter friendzones, orbiters, being made to 'wait', branch swinging, etc. Typically, women despise anything that may compromise their game. Posting lists that are completely one-sided towards attaining a man's need is never going to go down well with women. Yet, understand that women have been reading Cosmo articles since puberty about how to best manipulate a man.

 

It seems that you're bitter because women aren't what you thought they were. Having an idealized view of women, and having that idealized view shattered is what leads to true misogyny.

 

You need to move past any bitterness, and you do that with acceptance IMO.

[elaine567]

The strong will always hold sway over the weak, it is the natural way of things.

BUT some strong people have empathy and understanding and choose not to over power and abuse the weak, whilst others take great pleasure in wielding power and control.

[spriggan2]

I'm sure there are some men from my past that could feel like I walked all over them.

 

If a man always places the woman in the "power position" this can happen.

 

What can happen exactly? You've only described passiveness which I personally have already acknowledged as an unattractive characteristic.

 

You've described men who gave you the liberty to walk all over them, but filling the leadership vaccuum is not what constitutes "walking all over." So if that's truly all you did to the men from your past then you didn't take that liberty, and no, I dont think they'd feel you walked all over them/doormatted them. There's no element of mistreatment, which is what both phrases imply, and what most examples of being walked all over contain.

Edited February 27, 2016 by spriggan2

[Woggle]

I think some women have anger towards men because of whatever experience and instead of actually standing up to the men that wronged them they pick an innocent man who won't stand up for himself and take it out on him. That is where I think a lot of the walking all over men comes from.

[Wewon]

I'm sure there are some men from my past that could feel like I walked all over them.

 

If a man always places the woman in the "power position" this can happen.

 

1. Where do you want to eat? I don't care.

2. What do you want to do this weekend? It doesn't matter.

3. What movie do you want to see? You choose.

4. What should we give so-and-so? Whatever you want.

 

Back in my 20s I was dating a woman that was heavily into fitness. She was very careful about what she ate and kept a fairly strict workout regime. This woman literally counted carbs, fat grams calories etc. At 25, I worked out, ate healthy, rode my bike but when I went to a restaurant I ate what I wanted wherever I wanted.

 

I often asked her those type of questions, not out of some feebleness of myself, but because to accommodate her very strict sensibilities. Combined with her lifestyle, I was also privy to hearing women constantly complain about this and that jerk that made unilateral decisions without taking them into account. It seems strange that a question of what someone wants is only interpreted as not being able to handle life challenges instead of "He's asking me because I can be a little picky."

 

I always thought that it was odd that so many women interpreted a man trying to get their input in such extreme ways, either as a sign of incompetence or an invitation of disrespect.