Difficulty due to very Specific Preferences

[road]

The difference between your example and my situation is that I'm looking for girls who choose to spend their time in church. Not kids whose parents force them to go to Catholic high school. If you're choosing an active church life, you're more likely to be waiting until marriage. Also, they still might have been having lesscsex at tge Catholic school but they were uneducated about birth control. The other reason I think my chances are better in church is that most of the girls I've come across who were still virgins (regardless of attractiveness) were very religious.

 

Anyway, like I said before, simply dating 18-19 or 20 year olds might be the best option for me. Then, hope they like me enough to wait until marriage. Like you said, you knew a lot of virgins who went to clubs at 18. The problem is that 18 year olds can't get into clubs here.

 

 

You have avoided answering why do you want a woman that has never been kissed.

 

 

Please answer that.

[normal person]

The other reason I think my chances are better in church is that most of the girls I've come across who were still virgins (regardless of attractiveness) were very religious.

 

Your chances are probably better in a church. The problem is they're still infinitesimally small overall. How many possible candidates could fit your criteria in a church? One at the most? You'd probably have to go to a lot of churches before you found suitable. It sounds like a real low yield exercise.

 

Anyway, like I said before, simply dating 18-19 or 20 year olds might be the best option for me. Then, hope they like me enough to wait until marriage. Like you said, you knew a lot of virgins who went to clubs at 18. The problem is that 18 year olds can't get into clubs here.

 

Just keep in mind your "best bet" is still most likely a losing bet. You're still yet to meet, let alone become involved with, one of these girls you're after. If you meet a girl who's 18-20 and she's still a virgin, it's likely she's a virgin by circumstance, not by choice. As in, she hasn't had sex yet. It doesn't necessarily mean she's actively abstaining and looking to commit to that lifestyle with someone. That's another problem you haven't thought of -- just because a girl's a virgin doesn't mean it's by design and it doesn't mean she doesn't want to have sex. Or kiss (that's going to be another hard sell for you).

Edited January 15, 2016 by normal person

[Poutrew]

You have avoided answering why do you want a woman that has never been kissed.

 

 

Please answer that.

 

I, of course, can't answer this question for the OP, since I am not he. However your question raises an interesting point. Perhaps the ancient cultures who placed a high value on virginity, knew something we in the west are only just now through science rediscovering: Having sex isn't just a passive, isolated thing. It can actually physically change people. When a man and a woman have intercourse, the man leaves his semen inside a woman's body. This semen is actually classifiable as a liquid organ, like blood. The woman's body recognizes this foreign tissue as alien and begins a long complex physical reaction in response. This results in permanent physical changes...

 

The process is not the same in a man because the woman doesn't leave a piece of herself inside him, so unfortunately it is the female who bears the brunt of this change. This means a woman is literally not the same individual after she has full-on sex for the first time. Maybe both genders begin the process with the physical exchange of bodily fluids containing DNA when they begin kissing.

 

Maybe ancient cultures knew there was a difference between virgin and non-virgin women and codified this knowledge by placing a high value on purity. All I know is that I have always been able to tell when a female I've known since birth begins having sex... she's not the same, but in an indefinable way that I can't really put my finger on...and I've never been wrong.

[searching1992]

You have avoided answering why do you want a woman that has never been kissed.

 

 

Please answer that.

 

I haven't answered that question because it's besides the point. I don't want this thread to become an argument about whether I'm right or wrong to want a girl who has never made out. It's just supposed to be about where to find such a girl.

[losangelena]

I, of course, can't answer this question for the OP, since I am not he. However your question raises an interesting point. Perhaps the ancient cultures who placed a high value on virginity, knew something we in the west are only just now through science rediscovering: Having sex isn't just a passive, isolated thing. It can actually physically change people. When a man and a woman have intercourse, the man leaves his semen inside a woman's body. This semen is actually classifiable as a liquid organ, like blood. The woman's body recognizes this foreign tissue as alien and begins a long complex physical reaction in response. This results in permanent physical changes...

 

The process is not the same in a man because the woman doesn't leave a piece of herself inside him, so unfortunately it is the female who bears the brunt of this change. This means a woman is literally not the same individual after she has full-on sex for the first time. Maybe both genders begin the process with the physical exchange of bodily fluids containing DNA when they begin kissing.

 

Maybe ancient cultures knew there was a difference between virgin and non-virgin women and codified this knowledge by placing a high value on purity. All I know is that I have always been able to tell when a female I've known since birth begins having sex... she's not the same, but in an indefinable way that I can't really put my finger on...and I've never been wrong.

 

Umm ... what?

 

No, that's not correct, sorry. Sperm lives for up to five days, and after that a woman's sex organs clean the semen out, like it would menstrual blood or anything else. It's doesn't stick around and cause physiological change. Scarleteen Boards: 2000 - 2014 (Archive): Is left-over semen re-absorbed in the vagina after intercourse?

 

Sex hormones do get released, but in both men and women. Which cause feelings of attachment.

 

Men in ancient cultures were intimidated by female sexuality because sex = power, and no one wanted to deal with women who were in touch with their own power. So, subjugate the women, and there's no problem.

 

My best guess for OP is that it's a sin thing. In 20th/21st century Judeo-Christian culture, sex is seen as something designed by God for human pleasure, solely to be enjoyed between a husband and a wife. Any sexual arousal or act (including masturbation) is seen as a sin, as a act against God, so that's why a lot of Christians wait until they're married to have sex, because they want to honor God. Of course, because they're also human, many of them either don't make it that long, or try and find a "line" they can go up to without crossing. Frenching, petting, hand jobs, oral sex, anal sex—all of these can be seen, depending on the person, as not crossing the line, because the penis hasn't gone into the vagina. Yes, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to be OK with anal sex and not missionary, but it happens. It's much more rare for a Christian's purity "line" to be kissing.

 

I've linked to it before on this thread, but anyone interested in more about this would do well to watch this doc called "Give Me Sex Jesus," it's free on Vimeo:

 

OP, of course don't feel like you have to reply to whether or not this is your reasoning. I get why you don't want to open that can of worms. It's an interesting topic, regardless. As always, I'd say go get involved in a church community.

Edited January 15, 2016 by losangelena

[MidwestUSA]

I, of course, can't answer this question for the OP, since I am not he. However your question raises an interesting point. Perhaps the ancient cultures who placed a high value on virginity, knew something we in the west are only just now through science rediscovering: Having sex isn't just a passive, isolated thing. It can actually physically change people. When a man and a woman have intercourse, the man leaves his semen inside a woman's body. This semen is actually classifiable as a liquid organ, like blood. The woman's body recognizes this foreign tissue as alien and begins a long complex physical reaction in response. This results in permanent physical changes...

 

So anyone who has had a blood transfusion goes thru permanent physical changes? I guess they do. In fact, enough transfusions in a short time will not only screw up your clotting factors, you may end up a different blood type. It's worth it if it saves your life.

 

Would that render someone non pure?

[GunslingerRoland]

The difference between your example and my situation is that I'm looking for girls who choose to spend their time in church. Not kids whose parents force them to go to Catholic high school. If you're choosing an active church life, you're more likely to be waiting until marriage. Also, they still might have been having lesscsex at tge Catholic school but they were uneducated about birth control. The other reason I think my chances are better in church is that most of the girls I've come across who were still virgins (regardless of attractiveness) were very religious.

 

Anyway, like I said before, simply dating 18-19 or 20 year olds might be the best option for me. Then, hope they like me enough to wait until marriage. Like you said, you knew a lot of virgins who went to clubs at 18. The problem is that 18 year olds can't get into clubs here.

 

 

Well guess what, I know many of those girls my wife went to school with and they still attend church as adults. And the ones that had kids, whether in school or after school, they are going to catholic school. Im not disagreeing that you are more likely to meet a virgin in a religious setting, Im just saying in the Christian religions its going to be a nominal difference. Also sex education in Canada teaches birth control much better than most of the states.

 

 

Also, if you want an 18 year old girl who hasn't had a chance to have sex yet, then you aren't choosing her based on her values. Which again makes this whole thing arbitrary.

[losangelena]

Also, if you want an 18 year old girl who hasn't had a chance to have sex yet, then you aren't choosing her based on her values. Which again makes this whole thing arbitrary.

 

This is my thinking, too, exactly.

[preraph]

I'll hit on a few points again, but first I'll respond directly to this quote. My family attended church weekly when I was a child, but we were not particularly active members. I was not raised to wait until marriage. No one in my immediate family does or did. It was a fairly conservative denomination, but not incredibly so. Waiting until marriage was part of the official teaching, but it was practically never brought up. The one time I recall it being brought up it was mentioned very quickly. So, while I am a Christian, I wouldn't say it was Christianity that really convinced me to wait.

 

I know people will disagree with me, but I simply find it most special when both partners are as sexually inexperienced as possible. I could articulate my thoughts further, but honestly I didn't come on here to defend or explain my desire. I'm just looking for advice on how to meet such a woman.

 

The types of women I consider gorgeous are the types most men do. Models, famous actresses, ect....Now, that doesn't mean I want them to strut around in their underwear like models and actresses do. I disagree that beauty and modesty is a contradiction. You can have the desire to look good only for your spouse.

 

Lastly, I have never dated before. I've turned down or not reciprocated interest in some women I haven't found attractive, though. I've yet to meet someone I have wanted to date. Also, simple lack of time has prevented me from dating. I have always been an incredibly dedicated student and have had a job most of the time since 8th grade. That hasn't left a lot of time for meeting women, but I've tried to put more focus on that the last couple years.

 

Alright, now to a few other points raised. I disagree that not particularly wanting an evangelical means I don't want her to be "too Christian." One can be dedicated to their faith, but not evangelical. You can be "very Christian" and not be evangelical. In response to normal person, you make a fair point. Simply being appealing myself does not mean more gorgeous virgin women will suddenly exist. I suppose I just meant that I'm in a reasonable position to attract such a girl should I meet one. Someone asked if I ever found a woman who has never made out. I have come across a few online, but never in real life that I know of. I don't ask every woman I meet if she has kissed or had sex before, though. Lastly, I don't need professional help for having my desires. For unrelated issues I've been to therapists/psychiatirsts before and I've mentioned this desire to them. Given, it didn't come up that I don't want her to have kissed. I did mention that I want her to be a virgin, though. I can't remember if I mentioned the gorgeous requirement, but I believe I did to at least one of them. Neither thought I was crazy or mentally troubled in any way regarding this issue.

 

Funny how you failed to mention to your therapist the oddest component of your requirement list. Guess you really don't want to face your issues. You're still young, so there's still hope you'll snap out of it. All pretty girls have been kissed and any tell you they haven't are lying for a reason, and the reason is opportunity.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Funny how you failed to mention to your therapist the oddest component of your requirement list. Guess you really don't want to face your issues. You're still young, so there's still hope you'll snap out of it. All pretty girls have been kissed and any tell you they haven't are lying for a reason, and the reason is opportunity.

 

Agreed, the whole fixation on this finding a woman who has "never been kissed" is quite odd. I even brought this posters to some of my real life Christian friends and they were like, "Yeah, there ALL kinds out there." and we had a chuckle.

[road]

I haven't answered that question because it's besides the point. I don't want this thread to become an argument about whether I'm right or wrong to want a girl who has never made out. It's just supposed to be about where to find such a girl.

 

 

But you can be wrong.

 

 

And, the problem worse then you being wrong is that you are not open to discuss that.

 

 

It takes more then a woman that has never been kissed to have a healthy relationship and good marriage.

 

 

You are the only man that I have heard in modern times that must have a woman that has never been kissed for a wife in western society.

 

 

If you chose to ignore this issue then you are living in Egypt, the land of denial.

 

 

Your need for a girl that has never been kissed is such a huge red flag.

 

 

How huge of a red flag is it?

 

 

No dad would let his daughter be courted by a man that will only date an 18 yo girl that has never been kiss.

[WaitingForBardot]

...

You are the only man that I have heard in modern times that must have a woman that has never been kissed for a wife in western society.

...

To be fair there's probably another one somewhere. So at least she'll have options!

 

Reminds me of a story...

 

There was a ship's captain that had his heart set on marrying a virgin. Realizing this was the only way his dream could come true, he arranged for a young girl to come live on his ship. For 4 long years he watched her grow, waiting, biding his time, until she turned 18. On their wedding bed he was having problems sticking it in, dry or the like, and she up looked at him and said "Why don't you just lick if first like everyone else?"

[WaitingForBardot]

^^submitted too soon...

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. For an 18-yo girl in the Western world to claim she has never even been kissed is an extraordinary claim. What sort of proof could she even offer besides her word? Given that people lie, I think it's a a major stumbling block to getting what you want.

[searching1992]

But you can be wrong.

 

 

And, the problem worse then you being wrong is that you are not open to discuss that.

 

 

It takes more then a woman that has never been kissed to have a healthy relationship and good marriage.

 

You are the only man that I have heard in modern times that must have a woman that has never been kissed for a wife in western society.

 

 

If you chose to ignore this issue then you are living in Egypt, the land of denial.

 

 

Your need for a girl that has never been kissed is such a huge red flag.

 

 

How huge of a red flag is it?

 

 

No dad would let his daughter be courted by a man that will only date an 18 yo girl that has never been kiss.

 

I'm not open to discussing it on here because I've discussed it at length with others before. I haven't ignored the issue. I've thought about it, discussed it with others, and accept it as something I strongly desire. You seem to want to insist there is something wrong with me when there really isn't.

[preraph]

Just because you desire something doesn't make it right or rational.

[Blanco]

I'm not open to discussing it on here because I've discussed it at length with others before. I haven't ignored the issue. I've thought about it, discussed it with others, and accept it as something I strongly desire. You seem to want to insist there is something wrong with me when there really isn't.

 

You've ignored the issue on here, so it's immaterial whether or not you've discussed it with other people away from the forum. You having done so doesn't help shed light on anything for the people here whose guidance you sought out.

 

I think people are just looking for some more context to help shape their suggestions for you.

[losangelena]

I'm not open to discussing it on here because I've discussed it at length with others before. I haven't ignored the issue. I've thought about it, discussed it with others, and accept it as something I strongly desire. You seem to want to insist there is something wrong with me when there really isn't.

 

I don't think it's so much an issue of trying to find something "wrong" with it, but rather that it's not a typical desire, and I thin people are just wanting more of an explanation as to why, what's so important to you about it. It's easy to say, "just go to church," but the curiosity still lingers, and I think the advice would get a little more in depth if we had more context.

[searching1992]

I don't think it's so much an issue of trying to find something "wrong" with it, but rather that it's not a typical desire, and I thin people are just wanting more of an explanation as to why, what's so important to you about it. It's easy to say, "just go to church," but the curiosity still lingers, and I think the advice would get a little more in depth if we had more context.

 

With great hesitation, I'll provide a little more background information. This isn't to start an argument about it with anyone. It is only for context. I'm not looking to be challenged.

 

As stated before, my stance is partly religious. But, that's only part of it. Like I said before, I think it is most special when both partners are each others' only partners. It's more exclusive if you've only exclusively done sexual things (including making out) with one another. I believe this exclusivity to be special and desire it strongly. This is something I've reasoned out for myself. That's why I said I'm only partly motivated by religion, since this stance isn't exactly laid out in any religion I've been part of.

 

Furthermore, this is why I would be okay with a girl who just happens to still be a virgin. We could still have the exclusivity I view as special even if she doesn't share my views. That being said, I strongly prefer a girl who is waiting until marriage herself.

 

I'm not sure this context allows for any new types of advice about where to find a gorgeous virgin, but I nonetheless have chosen to give more context for those who desire it.

[road]

Everyman likes the thought of having a virgin. Though the reality is dating is not you ask the girl out and then marry her. Boys and girls start dating at various ages. It is normal to realize after dating that what I am I doing with this jerk, good bye. So most people will have gone through more then one BF/GF before finding Miss/Mr right.

 

 

Most men do not care if their GF was a virgin for he thinks she is very attractive and is very happy that she is going out with him. Yes he like everyone else wants a new car, but will gladly accept a low mileage model.

 

 

A smart man when buying a used car does not ask the owner if he had sex in the car. No matter how much he liked driving it the mind movies will bother him. Assuming that no one popped the cars cherry/christened the car he can drive it around without mind movies. He knows that if he had this car he would of done the same thing. So not being a hypocrite he just says what I do not know can't bother me.

 

 

This is why and what young men are advise to not ask about a GF's past. He can't be bothered by what he does not know. Also if he is smart enough to keep his mouth shut he will reveal nothing for his GF to be bothered.

 

 

The key issue is the GF/BF dumped the last loser and chose you to be the final one to have her for the rest of her/his life. You were/are the best to them.

 

 

Virginity is over rated and no where as important as fidelity. I have been on infidelity forums for many years. The amount of BH's that had a WW that was a virgin when they met. That WW being a virgin wound up not being worth anything.

[losangelena]

With great hesitation, I'll provide a little more background information. This isn't to start an argument about it with anyone. It is only for context. I'm not looking to be challenged.

 

As stated before, my stance is partly religious. But, that's only part of it. Like I said before, I think it is most special when both partners are each others' only partners. It's more exclusive if you've only exclusively done sexual things (including making out) with one another. I believe this exclusivity to be special and desire it strongly. This is something I've reasoned out for myself. That's why I said I'm only partly motivated by religion, since this stance isn't exactly laid out in any religion I've been part of.

 

Furthermore, this is why I would be okay with a girl who just happens to still be a virgin. We could still have the exclusivity I view as special even if she doesn't share my views. That being said, I strongly prefer a girl who is waiting until marriage herself.

 

I'm not sure this context allows for any new types of advice about where to find a gorgeous virgin, but I nonetheless have chosen to give more context for those who desire it.

 

Again, I don't think there's anything inherently "wrong" with what you're looking for, just perhaps ... unlikely. I think what's MORE common, at least in evangelical circles, is that dating couples wait WITH EACH OTHER, regardless of either's sexual past, sort of like resetting the purity clock. But even then, it's hard. My first real BF (I was 25 by the way, late bloomer, though he was not the first guy I kissed), I met at church, and when we first started dating, he wanted to wait on the kissing and all that, 'cause some friends of his had and he found it inspiring. Well, after probably not even a week, we were totally making out all the time. So much for that value.

 

Anyway. Now that I'm ten years older had have shed every last vestige of virginity, I feel like it's highly overrated. I agree with road that it doesn't matter a lick when it comes to a person's capacity for relationship, and that fidelity is what's most important. That's just me. You may change your mind over time, or you might not. We're not the ones to say.

[preraph]

One thing I've noticed on LS over the years is that older male virgins are too fearful to have sex with a nonvirgin woman. Because it's fear that caused them to still be a virgin, so the fear intensifies once they're older and start realizing it will be hard to find anyone as inexperienced as them. So then they have to try to find a really young one, and of course the situation only becomes more impossible as the years roll by.

[normal person]

 

As stated before, my stance is partly religious. But, that's only part of it. Like I said before, I think it is most special when both partners are each others' only partners. It's more exclusive if you've only exclusively done sexual things (including making out) with one another. I believe this exclusivity to be special and desire it strongly. This is something I've reasoned out for myself. That's why I said I'm only partly motivated by religion, since this stance isn't exactly laid out in any religion I've been part of.

 

You make it seem like everyone who kisses each other are "partners." Go to any college party or bar on a Friday or Saturday night and you'll see instantly that this isn't the case.

 

Why do you put such a premium on everything being "the most special?" I'm not trying to offend you, but you're making this sound like you're a 9 year old girl dreaming she's a Disney princess in a fairytale where everything is "special" and everyone is virginal, waiting for the perfect partner, and completely devoid of the very common sexual desires. Real life doesn't work like that. Most people realize this paradigm is totally impractical by the time they're teenagers. Do you still believe in Santa Clause too? Like I said, I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to illustrate the point.

 

People are completely moronic and clueless about what they want and don't want in a partner until they experience it through trial and error. Most people want to have experience dating, kissing, sleeping with other people. Variety is nice, and it allows them to see what kinds of traits and experiences they enjoy/don't enjoy in a partner. You're incredibly naive to think the first person you make out with will be fine being bound to you for life.

 

Here's how I see a scenario for you should you ever meet one of these girls (which I don't think you will).

 

- Her dad/brothers/friends think you're lame/strange/not a man/gay because you're a guy in your 20s who insists romantic experiences need to be "special."

 

- The girl gets really sick of not kissing/having sex and breaks up with you a la Miss USA and Tim Tebow, and goes out with a guy without all these unusual preferences and enjoys it.

 

- You're suddenly 25+ years old, every woman your age is making out and having sex regularly, and you're still trying to pick up 18 year old virgins for some reason, which makes everyone else think you're strange/creepy/repressed/effeminate/undesirable. You become kryptonite to women.

 

 

Furthermore, this is why I would be okay with a girl who just happens to still be a virgin. We could still have the exclusivity I view as special even if she doesn't share my views.

 

You're assuming that she'll be ok with not having sex by default just because you are. That's a very big assumption to make. A circumstantial virgin likely wants to have sex just like everyone else.

 

My advice is that you need to get over this "it needs to be the most special" mindset immediately. Even pious church folk will tell you this is unrealistic nonsense. It will actually prevent you from having a fulfilling romantic life. Jesus, even the Amish let teenagers kiss.

Edited January 16, 2016 by normal person

[searching1992]

You make it seem like everyone who kisses each other are "partners." Go to any college party or bar on a Friday or Saturday night and you'll see instantly that this isn't the case.

 

Why do you put such a premium on everything being "the most special?" I'm not trying to offend you, but you're making this sound like you're a 9 year old girl dreaming she's a Disney princess in a fairytale where everything is "special" and everyone is virginal, waiting for the perfect partner, and completely devoid of the very common sexual desires. Real life doesn't work like that. Most people realize this paradigm is totally impractical by the time they're teenagers. Do you still believe in Santa Clause too? Like I said, I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to illustrate the point.

 

People are completely moronic and clueless about what they want and don't want in a partner until they experience it through trial and error. Most people want to have experience dating, kissing, sleeping with other people. Variety is nice, and it allows them to see what kinds of traits and experiences they enjoy/don't enjoy in a partner. You're incredibly naive to think the first person you make out with will be fine being bound to you for life.

 

Here's how I see a scenario for you should you ever meet one of these girls (which I don't think you will).

 

- Her dad/brothers/friends think you're lame/strange/not a man/gay because you're a guy in your 20s who insists romantic experiences need to be "special."

 

- The girl gets really sick of not kissing/having sex and breaks up with you a la Miss USA and Tim Tebow, and goes out with a guy without all these unusual preferences and enjoys it.

 

- You're suddenly 25+ years old, every woman your age is making out and having sex regularly, and you're still trying to pick up 18 year old virgins for some reason, which makes everyone else think you're strange/creepy/repressed/effeminate/undesirable. You become kryptonite to women.

 

 

 

 

You're assuming that she'll be ok with not having sex by default just because you are. That's a very big assumption to make. A circumstantial virgin likely wants to have sex just like everyone else.

 

My advice is that you need to get over this "it needs to be the most special" mindset immediately. Even pious church folk will tell you this is unrealistic nonsense. It will actually prevent you from having a fulfilling romantic life. Jesus, even the Amish let teenagers kiss.

 

For not trying to be mean, that was pretty mean. It's fine, though. My desires are specific and rare. I already know that. They are what they are. I didn't choose them on a whim. I've thought them over for years and have reached this point. If other people think I'm strange for it, that's on them. Not me. If it repels a girl, she's not the girl for me, anyway.

 

preraph, I'm not a virgin because I'm scared. That's just not the case.

 

losangelena, I highly doubt one day I'll wake up and virginity won't matter to me, but I can't predict the future. For now, it's meet a gorgeous virgin or stay single. I don't believe in the resetting the clock thing. By the way, I agree a nonvirgin is perfectly capable of not cheating.

 

As I feared, it seems the thread is turning more into trying to lead me away from looking for what I'm looking for. As I said from the beginning, I'm really just looking for advice about where to find such a woman.

[losangelena]

losangelena, I highly doubt one day I'll wake up and virginity won't matter to me, but I can't predict the future. For now, it's meet a gorgeous virgin or stay single. I don't believe in the resetting the clock thing. By the way, I agree a nonvirgin is perfectly capable of not cheating.

 

I don't think it'll be "one day," that you just decide to change your mind, but if you're single and 28, or single and 33, I doubt you'll be saying the same things. It's a process.

 

Anyway, good luck to you.

[Blanco]

FWIW, my least enjoyable kissing and sexual experiences were mostly with inexperienced girls. I'm not some Black Belt of Love or anything, but I think it takes experiences with at least a couple of partners to start to find any sort of groove with this stuff, even if it's just kissing.

 

Your preference for the assumed special nature of the virginal, untouched land might surpass your desire for these experiences to be actually enjoyable, but it's still food for thought.