Dealing with wife's affair.

January 5, 2016

And then...there are those of you basically posting that she's worthless, she's a whore, kick her to the curb, women who cheat aren't worth listening to...which is just as destructive to him. She's not a robot. She's not a whore. She's not a prostitute. She's a woman who once loved him and he still loves her and SHE WAS NOT HAPPY before the cheating, before she met a man who met the needs he wasn't meeting. Does she deserve to be crucified for life? I never see this level of vehemence about cheating men on this forum. I guess that old double standard is alive and kicking.

January 5, 2016

This forum is this extraordinary group of people. Most of which have or are experiencing the most terrible of emotional pains. Some have been so deeply moved that they come here to give their advise, helping hand, even though they no longer require adice. The kindness of strangers is a lovely thing.

Because of who we are, what we've experienced etc. etc. etc. we all have different views. Different perceptions of human nature, human actions. All of our personal journeys & fellow travelers are unique to us.

Basically we're all writing here for a reason. Giving our time, attention & sometimes tears & rage for our fellow man hurting.

All of the advise given (With the incredibly rare exception) is given with the very best of intentions. Every OP posting has to recognize the nature of forums, choose what's best for them in their situation & take the advise that applies.

Only the OP knows his wife. She's done something that he didn't think she was capable of doing. In my opinion that DOESN'T make her a completely different human being that he knows NOTHING about.

From what I've observed in my life divorce isn't the magical cure for infidelity agony. I think it depends a lot on the nature of the bs.

January 5, 2016

To answer some of your questions.....

"mean what could/would stop HER from arranging a surprise candle light dinner or writing poetry for me or giving me a surprise "kiss" by sneaking up on me?"

* You have given quite a lot of examples of her reaching out & your emotional state making you very dismissive or hostile.

* She's walking on egg shells guessing what your response will be. If (I said IF) she's riddled with guilt, hating herself & loving you that kind of rejection & venom would be agonizing.

* Even if she's desperately sorry & wants no man but you...Writing poetry, pouring her heart out could be ripped-up by you. One line could be taken in an unintended way & you could be furious at her.

* You could push away a kiss & not talk to her for hours with her getting more & more desperate trying to figure it out right.

* She could spend days planning & cooking a romantic meal only for you to be passive aggressive & make her regret it.

I don't know. Part of me is playing devils advocate. I'm just as likely correct as those saying "She's still cheating. She's a ruined woman. She's a ho. She was shagging him when you went home. She doesn't love or respect you. She thinks you're a door mat etc."

We don't know! She could be in the other room crying herself to sleep every night. You want her back in your bed. She said "Why have you never asked me?". You think she should ask. You also say she talks about you being controlling. You talk about her taking the passive role in your relationship.

I've told you what my husband used to say to me....about not telling me what he wanted because I should know. If I loved him I would know.

Are you sure you're not doing that to your wife? "If she loved me she would be begging to come back to bed!". I think her meekly requesting your permission to lay next to you to nap says a lot. She wanted to be close to you.

I think she didn't have the confidence to just cuddle you. A woman requesting your permission to lay on the marrital bed NEXT TO you is NOT a woman who's going to jump on you for porn-sex to surprise you!!

Does she truly feel emotionally safe to do the things that you want from her?

My H has always had depression, it runs in his family. He goes through stages where he believes that he just can't help saying or doing horrible things.

As an understanding wife he should basically have a free-pass because of his condition. He can be torturously passive aggressive (that's a bloody nightmare to live with) but I can't criticize him because that will make him even more depressed & self loathing.

He is sick...I should 'know him' & recognize the symptoms...I'm a people pleaser to a fault (I'm working on it) & I think I've made him so much worse by 'protecting' him. A 'normal wife would shout or at least say something... I just keep my head down & walk on egg shells to please him until it passes.

One of my H's d-day complaints was that I keep my distance at times & it makes him feel unloved. He is correct. If he was writing here you'd say I'm cold & neglecting at these times.

When your H can give you the silent treatment & communicate in grunts for days & you're running in circles, anxiety spiking, trying to keep little kids quiet so they don't annoy him....you're keeping your head-down to avoid a passive aggressive flare from ANYTHING/EVERYTHING you say or do AND you can't for the life of you figure out what you've done wrong this time....it's just not conducive to happy, perky, cuddly, sex kitten, model styled wifey.

Sorry....went on bit...hit a nerve there as you can tell!!

What I'm saying is....I'm a mess too. I recognize your emotions but your expressing your emotions, angrily, silently or dismissively IS going to effect the way your wife relates to you.

You know I say "WHAT YOU WANT". If you truly want the kind of R you've talked about reacting on your mood so strongly is NOT conducive to getting what you want for you, your wife, your family.

Sorry. I missed it. Do you have kids? How old? Have they noticed that things are wrong?

Do you have a close group of friends that the 2 of you socialize with regularly?

Why didn't your wife come to visit HER family? Is she close to her family?

You spoke about this country being lonely. Are you guys pretty isolated?

We are! Living in a foreign country can be hard. I think isolation is hard on a marriage.

January 5, 2016

And then...there are those of you basically posting that she's worthless, she's a whore, kick her to the curb, women who cheat aren't worth listening to...which is just as destructive to him. She's not a robot. She's not a whore. She's not a prostitute. She's a woman who once loved him and he still loves her and SHE WAS NOT HAPPY before the cheating, before she met a man who met the needs he wasn't meeting. Does she deserve to be crucified for life? I never see this level of vehemence about cheating men on this forum. I guess that old double standard is alive and kicking.

I don't think that being unhappy and having unmet needs is an excuse for cheating.

Those are contributing factors but not excuses.

I've seen cheating men get tarred and feathered here though.

January 5, 2016

Not to the extent that women are. It's the same on other forums. BWs get told to be strong! Have high standards! But they rarely get told he's a cretin, he's pathetic, he's unredeemable, etc. I mean, maybe people think he is, but I rarely see people go on and on about him on a personal level the way women are attacked. And it's almost always the men making these attacks. I'm going to assume it's because intercourse isn't the death knell to women on an emotional level the way it is for men. IME, most men see their woman having intercourse as the absolute worst act a woman can do, making them unredeemable, whereas to women, it's usually being 'in love' with the OW that hurts the women the most. Being that we tend to go into affairs for the emotion, while men usually cheat to get more sex.

But sometimes, a man comes here who WANTS to keep his wife, and that's what I try to help him achieve. But meantime, most of the men are screaming WHORE! UNREDEEMABLE!

But in the end, people cheat for all kinds of reasons. People aren't robots, or whores. People are humans who have feelings and justifications, even if they are bad justifications. So if a man comes here and says he wants to save his marriage, and his ex-WW is at least TRYING to fix things, it's worth finding possible solutions.

January 5, 2016

And then...there are those of you basically posting that she's worthless, she's a whore, kick her to the curb, women who cheat aren't worth listening to...which is just as destructive to him. She's not a robot. She's not a whore. She's not a prostitute. She's a woman who once loved him and he still loves her and SHE WAS NOT HAPPY before the cheating, before she met a man who met the needs he wasn't meeting. Does she deserve to be crucified for life? I never see this level of vehemence about cheating men on this forum. I guess that old double standard is alive and kicking.

I agree 100% with this. I AM treating her like a human being, and always have. That is why I'm fighting so hard because I know that there is some truth in what turnera is saying.

It is true that she WAS NOT HAPPY in the marriage, even before this affair, but its also true that (of her own admittance), she did not know how to be happy and that she was unhappy for the wrong reasons.

She has told me that this incident (the affair) has completely changed her perspective of life and that she is now learning how to:

1) Know what brings true happiness (Its within each of us) and not depend on external factors for her happiness. Her affair was proof that changing external circumstances did not make her happy.

2) Know how to handle taking care of her needs, both independently and also her needs from the relationship by engaging me in the correct ways.

3) Respect me as an individual, who may or may not be capable of meeting each and every single need of hers. I am only human after all, and may have some limitations too, just as she does.

4) Take responsibility for "calling out" whatever does not work for her in terms of things that cause her any unmanageable pain.

My point is that I agree 100% with turnera and disagree with any advice that tells me to simply throw out my wife and treat her any less than how I would treat myself. She is a human being, not a robot, whore or prostitute and human beings have some imperfections by very definition. Whether she is willing and capable of developing herself to a person whom I really need?.... Time is revealing that and I have to give her the space for it. I have to be a little patient with life itself, to see what unfolds. I have to be a little patient with my wife too, to see if she is becoming the person I need and can love again (I have lost all my feelings of love for her now, but am open to the possibility of being in love with a new woman, who is putting in atleast some effort, and whom I am gradually seeing some change in).

I'm also open to the possibility that she may never become the person who I will "be in love with", ever again, and in that case, a respectful divorce will be the only solution.

January 5, 2016

I agree 100% with this. I AM treating her like a human being, and always have. That is why I'm fighting so hard because I know that there is some truth in what turnera is saying.

It is true that she WAS NOT HAPPY in the marriage, even before this affair, but its also true that (of her own admittance), she did not know how to be happy and that she was unhappy for the wrong reasons.
She has told me that this incident (the affair) has completely changed her perspective of life and that she is now learning how to:
1) Know what brings true happiness (Its within each of us) and not depend on external factors for her happiness. Her affair was proof that changing external circumstances did not make her happy.
2) Know how to handle taking care of her needs, both independently and also her needs from the relationship by engaging me in the correct ways.
3) Respect me as an individual, who may or may not be capable of meeting each and every single need of hers. I am only human after all, and may have some limitations too, just as she does.
4) Take responsibility for "calling out" whatever does not work for her in terms of things that cause her any unmanageable pain.

My point is that I agree 100% with turnera and disagree with any advice that tells me to simply throw out my wife and treat her any less than how I would treat myself. She is a human being, not a robot, whore or prostitute and human beings have some imperfections by very definition. Whether she is willing and capable of developing herself to a person whom I really need?.... Time is revealing that and I have to give her the space for it. I have to be a little patient with life itself, to see what unfolds. I have to be a little patient with my wife too, to see if she is becoming the person I need and can love again (I have lost all my feelings of love for her now, but am open to the possibility of being in love with a new woman, who is putting in atleast some effort, and whom I am gradually seeing some change in).

I'm also open to the possibility that she may never become the person who I will "be in love with", ever again, and in that case, a respectful divorce will be the only solution.

Do you think that your wife is treating you like a human being?

She cheated and instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she is blaming the OM and pointing the finger at you. That's pretty audacious of her. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words.

I don't see the point in calling your wife names like some posters have done.

However, I also do not understand why you want to reward your wife's behavior by wooing her. Spouses who cheat do not deserve to be wooed, especially when they don't have much remorse for their actions.

January 5, 2016

Not to the extent that women are. It's the same on other forums. BWs get told to be strong! Have high standards! But they rarely get told he's a cretin, he's pathetic, he's unredeemable, etc. I mean, maybe people think he is, but I rarely see people go on and on about him on a personal level the way women are attacked. And it's almost always the men making these attacks. I'm going to assume it's because intercourse isn't the death knell to women on an emotional level the way it is for men. IME, most men see their woman having intercourse as the absolute worst act a woman can do, making them unredeemable, whereas to women, it's usually being 'in love' with the OW that hurts the women the most. Being that we tend to go into affairs for the emotion, while men usually cheat to get more sex.

But sometimes, a man comes here who WANTS to keep his wife, and that's what I try to help him achieve. But meantime, most of the men are screaming WHORE! UNREDEEMABLE!

But in the end, people cheat for all kinds of reasons. People aren't robots, or whores. People are humans who have feelings and justifications, even if they are bad justifications. So if a man comes here and says he wants to save his marriage, and his ex-WW is at least TRYING to fix things, it's worth finding possible solutions.

Here is a thread of a man being reamed out:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/563648-how-choose-between-wife-someone-else

Another thread filled with rightfully directed harshness at a male cheater:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/563783-full-blown-affair-want-do-what-s-right

Another thread where a female poster is being told to leave her "piece of schytt" husband:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/562571-my-wit-s-end-husband-s-repeated-cyber-cheating

I'm not saying that the harsh words are not justified because I think they certainly are. I'm just pointing out that male cheaters are not treated with more understanding on this forum. I've only been here for a short time and I've been able to come up with three examples. I can't speak on the other forums you mentioned because I don't know which other forums you're referring to.

I do agree that calling the OP's wife terrible names is not helpful.

My main concern when I read the OP's threads is his wife only grudgingly showed remorse after being repeatedly asked for evidence and details. Those actions do not indicate contriteness to me.

January 5, 2016

To answer some of your questions.....

"mean what could/would stop HER from arranging a surprise candle light dinner or writing poetry for me or giving me a surprise "kiss" by sneaking up on me?"

* You have given quite a lot of examples of her reaching out & your emotional state making you very dismissive or hostile.
* She's walking on egg shells guessing what your response will be. If (I said IF) she's riddled with guilt, hating herself & loving you that kind of rejection & venom would be agonizing.
* Even if she's desperately sorry & wants no man but you...Writing poetry, pouring her heart out could be ripped-up by you. One line could be taken in an unintended way & you could be furious at her.
* You could push away a kiss & not talk to her for hours with her getting more & more desperate trying to figure it out right.
* She could spend days planning & cooking a romantic meal only for you to be passive aggressive & make her regret it.

I don't know. Part of me is playing devils advocate. I'm just as likely correct as those saying "She's still cheating. She's a ruined woman. She's a ho. She was shagging him when you went home. She doesn't love or respect you. She thinks you're a door mat etc."

We don't know! She could be in the other room crying herself to sleep every night. You want her back in your bed. She said "Why have you never asked me?". You think she should ask. You also say she talks about you being controlling. You talk about her taking the passive role in your relationship.

I've told you what my husband used to say to me....about not telling me what he wanted because I should know. If I loved him I would know.

Are you sure you're not doing that to your wife? "If she loved me she would be begging to come back to bed!". I think her meekly requesting your permission to lay next to you to nap says a lot. She wanted to be close to you.
I think she didn't have the confidence to just cuddle you. A woman requesting your permission to lay on the marrital bed NEXT TO you is NOT a woman who's going to jump on you for porn-sex to surprise you!!

Does she truly feel emotionally safe to do the things that you want from her?

My H has always had depression, it runs in his family. He goes through stages where he believes that he just can't help saying or doing horrible things.

As an understanding wife he should basically have a free-pass because of his condition. He can be torturously passive aggressive (that's a bloody nightmare to live with) but I can't criticize him because that will make him even more depressed & self loathing.

He is sick...I should 'know him' & recognize the symptoms...I'm a people pleaser to a fault (I'm working on it) & I think I've made him so much worse by 'protecting' him. A 'normal wife would shout or at least say something... I just keep my head down & walk on egg shells to please him until it passes.

One of my H's d-day complaints was that I keep my distance at times & it makes him feel unloved. He is correct. If he was writing here you'd say I'm cold & neglecting at these times.

When your H can give you the silent treatment & communicate in grunts for days & you're running in circles, anxiety spiking, trying to keep little kids quiet so they don't annoy him....you're keeping your head-down to avoid a passive aggressive flare from ANYTHING/EVERYTHING you say or do AND you can't for the life of you figure out what you've done wrong this time....it's just not conducive to happy, perky, cuddly, sex kitten, model styled wifey.

Sorry....went on bit...hit a nerve there as you can tell!!

What I'm saying is....I'm a mess too. I recognize your emotions but your expressing your emotions, angrily, silently or dismissively IS going to effect the way your wife relates to you.

You know I say "WHAT YOU WANT". If you truly want the kind of R you've talked about reacting on your mood so strongly is NOT conducive to getting what you want for you, your wife, your family.

Sorry. I missed it. Do you have kids? How old? Have they noticed that things are wrong?

Do you have a close group of friends that the 2 of you socialize with regularly?

Why didn't your wife come to visit HER family? Is she close to her family?

You spoke about this country being lonely. Are you guys pretty isolated?

We are! Living in a foreign country can be hard. I think isolation is hard on a marriage.

Dear ShatteredLady,

Thanks for your insight and perception. I'm very very grateful for all the time and effort you are spending on my thread and my problem. It almost feels like I have a friend who is advising me. I feel that way about everyone on this forum, even though I see responses of anger, impatience and disgust towards my wife as well as towards me. Ultimately, when we try to understand something from our own limited human life and perception, we may not see reality for what it is or even be aware of certain things. So, I'm certainly very grateful for the people who post on this forum, sometimes with the only intent to help someone else, but also with the intent of understanding more about this terrible, traumatic and painful phenomenon called "infidelity", which truly destroys life and families, even if for a few years.

You described what she may be feeling when she does make some attempts to emotionally (and lightly physically) connect with me. She does say (in communication sometimes with me) that she also feels like she is walking on eggs shells (She used that exact phrase).

How would/should I communicate to her these 3 things, so she is able to understand them?:

1) My feelings of rejecting her (at times), some passive anger and pain are not an indication of any purposeful intent of mine to hurt or punish her. These are what one may consider normal reactions.

2) If she continues to make these efforts (even more aggressively), it will actually help me "break free" from those reactions. The more she makes these efforts (overcoming her own emotions of rejection), the more I will subconsciously realize that she truly loves and cares for me (because I would subconsciously also know that she is willing to pay the price of her own feelings of discomfort in exchange for helping me overcome my pain and get over the affair). I would see a certain level of "sacrifice" which would be more convincingly suitable in me realizing that she really does love me and isn't just wanting me as a convenient way to continue living her life.

3) If she gives up making these efforts on the pretext of being rejected, and IF she truly loves me, it means she is not "giving herself fully" a chance and that she is not "risking" something less important (the comfort of not feeling rejected) for something that may be more important for her (winning back my love and trust)

I would say that 70% of the time I feel a lot of pain and some anger, when I can potentially reject her attempts for reconnection. I say "potentially" because, of that 70% of time, I would say that 80% of the time (of the 70%) I DO convince myself to actually connect with her when she makes the initial attempt.

So (mathematically speaking), I'm able to connect with her 86% of the time when she makes an attempt to connect with me. I would think that is not too bad, isn't it?

The other possibility is ofcourse what you mentioned, which is that maybe she doesn't really love me enough to warrant a huge effort on her part for reconnection with me.

Its true that she had been taking the passive role in our relationship, but I have told her so many times that I would rather her demonstrate (when its needed) that she aggressively wants me (if and when she really does). Why would she not understand that its OK to take the aggressive role at times, especially when you want something and it seems to be slipping away from you? In terms of a situation like this, isn't it much more likely for her to lose me forever? Why would she not make a big enough effort (assuming she still loves me enough) to NOT lose me forever?

You asked if I'm expecting her to beg to be with me. No, I'm not. I'm just looking for her own personal initiative. Also, I don't expect her to know because she loves me. I "actually" tell her what I need and if she is able to provide what I need, I gratefully acknowledge it and do thank her for it (even though I may continue to need it, until a certain point, to fully recover)

You asked about "emotional safety to do the things that I want". I'm not sure what you meant by emotional safety. Could you ellaborate?

Do you mean that her emotions would not hurt more by doing what I wanted? How would her emotions hurt more? Would it be because of a fear that I would "use" her to recover and then leave her anyway? How could/would I convince her that if I recovered, then I would NEVER leave her, more so because she would have helped me to recover and I would have seen her love?

You asked about depression.... When I was in depression (maybe 8 years ago), it was hard on her too. I did not say or do horrible things, but I used to cry profusely, feel a lot of pain and confusion, reach out to other family and friends for support, very rarely drive fast on the highway (when I very rarely got angry), not be able to focus on my work, career and daily tasks. But I never used or expected to get a free pass on things, although she did (on her own accord), step up to meet some of the gaps in daily living.

I also fell into some occasional distractions to deal with the pain of depression: some porn and video games.

I took medication for about 2 years and was able to completely come out of the depression, resuming life normally.

Just as you say you are, my wife is also says she was a people pleaser and is working on herself to better recognize her own identity. The distance she has kept away from me (in the last 5 months) certainly makes me feel unloved, particularly under the circumstances of the aftermath of her affair.

I completely understand what you're saying about my emotions affecting her ability to reconnect fully with me, while she is taking care of the kids and dealing with trying to avoid the passive aggression.

It seems like we're both trying, but its happening too slowly. I don't know how we could accelerate the results of me not feeling as much pain and she being able to connect more deeply with me, emotionally and sexually?

To answer your questions:

We have 2 kids, a 11 year old daughter and a 6 year old son. They certainly know that something is wrong, because "mummy moved out of the bedroom" and that we occasionally fight (even after the affair).

The older child (our 11 year old daughter) also "knows" certain things. She is probably old enough to have some ideas about what has happened, because she heard the words "hotel room", "affair" and "sex" in our conversations before. Also, she has actually seen the affair partner visit our home and on one occasion, also saw him kiss her mother on her forehead. My wife quickly noticed that she saw it and quickly dismissed it as just a "friendly kiss". I can't believe the degree of deception

We really don't have many close friends, and certainly not ANY close friends in the city we live in, so its mostly just us dealing with our own problems. We did have 1 couple who was closely trying to help us deal with the aftermath of the affair (sometimes by actually living with us in our home), but even they "gave up" on us after about 1 month of trying to support us and also moved to a different city.

My wife does have family: Her mother and her sister who know about her affair (I'm not sure to what level of detail though), and she occasionally speaks to them on the phone.

She also occasionally speaks to 1 or 2 other female friends who know about her affair.

January 5, 2016

Dear ShatteredLady,

Thanks for your insight and perception. I'm very very grateful for all the time and effort you are spending on my thread and my problem. It almost feels like I have a friend who is advising me. I feel that way about everyone on this forum, even though I see responses of anger, impatience and disgust towards my wife as well as towards me. Ultimately, when we try to understand something from our own limited human life and perception, we may not see reality for what it is or even be aware of certain things. So, I'm certainly very grateful for the people who post on this forum, sometimes with the only intent to help someone else, but also with the intent of understanding more about this terrible, traumatic and painful phenomenon called "infidelity", which truly destroys life and families, even if for a few years.

You described what she may be feeling when she does make some attempts to emotionally (and lightly physically) connect with me. She does say (in communication sometimes with me) that she also feels like she is walking on eggs shells (She used that exact phrase).
How would/should I communicate to her these 3 things, so she is able to understand them?:
1) My feelings of rejecting her (at times), some passive anger and pain are not an indication of any purposeful intent of mine to hurt or punish her. These are what one may consider normal reactions.
2) If she continues to make these efforts (even more aggressively), it will actually help me "break free" from those reactions. The more she makes these efforts (overcoming her own emotions of rejection), the more I will subconsciously realize that she truly loves and cares for me (because I would subconsciously also know that she is willing to pay the price of her own feelings of discomfort in exchange for helping me overcome my pain and get over the affair). I would see a certain level of "sacrifice" which would be more convincingly suitable in me realizing that she really does love me and isn't just wanting me as a convenient way to continue living her life.
3) If she gives up making these efforts on the pretext of being rejected, and IF she truly loves me, it means she is not "giving herself fully" a chance and that she is not "risking" something less important (the comfort of not feeling rejected) for something that may be more important for her (winning back my love and trust)

I would say that 70% of the time I feel a lot of pain and some anger, when I can potentially reject her attempts for reconnection. I say "potentially" because, of that 70% of time, I would say that 80% of the time (of the 70%) I DO convince myself to actually connect with her when she makes the initial attempt.
So (mathematically speaking), I'm able to connect with her 86% of the time when she makes an attempt to connect with me. I would think that is not too bad, isn't it?

The other possibility is ofcourse what you mentioned, which is that maybe she doesn't really love me enough to warrant a huge effort on her part for reconnection with me.

Its true that she had been taking the passive role in our relationship, but I have told her so many times that I would rather her demonstrate (when its needed) that she aggressively wants me (if and when she really does). Why would she not understand that its OK to take the aggressive role at times, especially when you want something and it seems to be slipping away from you? In terms of a situation like this, isn't it much more likely for her to lose me forever? Why would she not make a big enough effort (assuming she still loves me enough) to NOT lose me forever?

You asked if I'm expecting her to beg to be with me. No, I'm not. I'm just looking for her own personal initiative. Also, I don't expect her to know because she loves me. I "actually" tell her what I need and if she is able to provide what I need, I gratefully acknowledge it and do thank her for it (even though I may continue to need it, until a certain point, to fully recover)

You asked about "emotional safety to do the things that I want". I'm not sure what you meant by emotional safety. Could you ellaborate?
Do you mean that her emotions would not hurt more by doing what I wanted? How would her emotions hurt more? Would it be because of a fear that I would "use" her to recover and then leave her anyway? How could/would I convince her that if I recovered, then I would NEVER leave her, more so because she would have helped me to recover and I would have seen her love?

You asked about depression.... When I was in depression (maybe 8 years ago), it was hard on her too. I did not say or do horrible things, but I used to cry profusely, feel a lot of pain and confusion, reach out to other family and friends for support, very rarely drive fast on the highway (when I very rarely got angry), not be able to focus on my work, career and daily tasks. But I never used or expected to get a free pass on things, although she did (on her own accord), step up to meet some of the gaps in daily living.
I also fell into some occasional distractions to deal with the pain of depression: some porn and video games.
I took medication for about 2 years and was able to completely come out of the depression, resuming life normally.

Just as you say you are, my wife is also says she was a people pleaser and is working on herself to better recognize her own identity. The distance she has kept away from me (in the last 5 months) certainly makes me feel unloved, particularly under the circumstances of the aftermath of her affair.

I completely understand what you're saying about my emotions affecting her ability to reconnect fully with me, while she is taking care of the kids and dealing with trying to avoid the passive aggression.

It seems like we're both trying, but its happening too slowly. I don't know how we could accelerate the results of me not feeling as much pain and she being able to connect more deeply with me, emotionally and sexually?

To answer your questions:

We have 2 kids, a 11 year old daughter and a 6 year old son. They certainly know that something is wrong, because "mummy moved out of the bedroom" and that we occasionally fight (even after the affair).
The older child (our 11 year old daughter) also "knows" certain things. She is probably old enough to have some ideas about what has happened, because she heard the words "hotel room", "affair" and "sex" in our conversations before. Also, she has actually seen the affair partner visit our home and on one occasion, also saw him kiss her mother on her forehead. My wife quickly noticed that she saw it and quickly dismissed it as just a "friendly kiss". I can't believe the degree of deception

We really don't have many close friends, and certainly not ANY close friends in the city we live in, so its mostly just us dealing with our own problems. We did have 1 couple who was closely trying to help us deal with the aftermath of the affair (sometimes by actually living with us in our home), but even they "gave up" on us after about 1 month of trying to support us and also moved to a different city.

My wife does have family: Her mother and her sister who know about her affair (I'm not sure to what level of detail though), and she occasionally speaks to them on the phone.
She also occasionally speaks to 1 or 2 other female friends who know about her affair.

Now that you mentioned that you have kids, I can see why you are very adamant about staying with your wife. It is much harder to walk away when there are young children involved. I'm sorry that they are being affected. Your wife has horrendously callous for bringing her OM around your daughter!

January 5, 2016

Do you think that your wife is treating you like a human being?

She cheated and instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she is blaming the OM and pointing the finger at you. That's pretty audacious of her. Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words.

I don't see the point in calling your wife names like some posters have done.
However, I also do not understand why you want to reward your wife's behavior by wooing her. Spouses who cheat do not deserve to be wooed, especially when they don't have much remorse for their actions.

I think she is treating me like a human being by respecting my choice to leave (if I choose to do so). I continue to also treat her like a human being by allowing her to feel as she might feel and not pressurizing her.

We don't own each other and that is what respecting another human being means.

Eventually, if we 2 human beings will connect with each passionately or not,.... Only the next few weeks and months will tell.

I will not accept anything less than a passionate relationship, whether that be with her or another woman (after I separate from her)

You brought about a very valid point.... Am I "rewarding" her actions by wooing her? I have thought VERY VERY deeply about this. These are my thoughts and analysis about this:

1) It is a very real possibility (its truly a risk) that she atleast feels "complacent" (if not "rewarded"), if I make efforts to woo her. Perhaps this is one of the greatest causes of my deep rooted subconscious hesitations to make any moves on her that show my need for a passionate relationship? Its also possible that I want her to feel deep (and permanent) remorse, so that she would/could never even think about another man? All these are "good" intents on my part, and seem to be reasons to justify not trying to woo her back.

2) The reverse is also true. Its also a real possibility (its truly also a risk) that she not feel attracted to me anymore. I mean, I can understand how unattractive an emotionally weak man may appear to any woman. A man who cannot make his woman feel good, inspite of his own pain. If I were to woo her in the ways she finds attractive, is she likely to leave me? Probably not. Its because I offer her something that she wants.

Which of the above 2 risks am I willing to take. None. But if I had to choose, which is a more "riskier" proposition?

I plan to explore the psychological implications of the above, to find an answer. Perhaps talk to a highly qualified psychologist or individual counselor, in addition to the marriage counseling that I'm planning for us.

If I try to think of things logically, purely in terms of what I want, this is what I want:

1) I want to reconnect with her passionately, emotionally and sexually and want her to "give" herself completely to me. She's my wife god dammit, she "belongs" to me (in a respectful way)

2) I want to set things up permanently in life so that we don't lose this connection. Infact, I want thing to be even better than they previously were. I want her to be so attracted to me that she becomes incapable of even thinking about another man.

In the process of "becoming" such an attractive man, I'm actually doing good for my own "being". Even if things don't work out with her, who or what would I have strived to become? An irresistible, strong, man, who has the skills to recover from one of life's biggest blows (of an affair) and is now capable of loving and wooing a woman to a much greater degree than was previously the case.

I would actually be building myself up, independent of her. She may just turn out to be a practice recipient of my new "gift" and if she still turns out to not be deserving of my new gift, then I can easily "take it away" and choose another recipient for this gift. A recipient who would reciprocate and give me the gifts that I'm really looking for.

January 5, 2016

You said your wife planned to change some things at the end of last year/beginning of this year...

Has she? I'm uncertain - was it a decision she was to make? Or changes she was saying she would do action on?

What has transpired since that deadline came and went?

She has begun to make greater efforts. It was probably in response to what I honestly admitted that I needed. I would have preferred if I did not have to "spell out" for her what I needed, but at the risk of not getting what I needed, I responsibly told her when I was asked.

The rate of improvement of her efforts are still not nearly as close as I think I really need to recover (I want to recover tomorrow if possible, waking up in my bed with a feeling that I'm completely over this terrible nightmare), and she recognizes this too, but promises that its only going to get better if not "rushed".

Yesterday evening, when I got home from work, she stood near the kitchen with an expectant look on her face, expecting a long and passionate hug. She had an expression of a "begging puppy" (which she knows that I always find cute and attractive). At first I felt a surge of anger, pain and manipulation. Later, when she persisted with her look and made gestures for me to "respond", I suspiciously asked her if "she" was the one who really wanted the hug or if she was just trying to cater to "my" need. She responded by saying that she would not be standing there like this if it was only the later (She still seems to give me indirect answers and does not directly and emphatically answer my questions). After a few more seconds of hesitation, I did respond and accepted and gave her a long hug. She also chose to lightly kiss me in response.

Later, that led to a conversation in which I wanted to ask her some questions (about how she felt about her affair partner at the time she was having the affair). That seemed to turn her off. Later she did decide to respond and called him a "monster" (like she has done in the past).

Ultimately, I think that actions ALWAYS speak louder than words, and I feel I need to give a bud a chance to grow, instead of nipping it before it possibly becomes a flower.

We did come to some conclusion about my feelings currently NOT being there for her (and requiring a chance to be built from scratch) and her feelings also just about starting to surface (with a new perspective about life and about her past misperceptions about me)

January 6, 2016

A couple thoughts. You said she was submissive, kind of backward, passive. Many women are this way. Don't own their sexual identity. Feel shame or guilt or fear judgment about being sexual. BTDT. And then she ... finds herself in the middle of a forbidden affair, where they can be 'a different person' and they let loose, like their upbringing wouldn't allow them to be. And then the bubble bursts, and they're back in the real world, facing shame all over again, of a different sort. So she is back to being repressed, afraid to be aggressive or sexual. Even when you ask for it.

And so you know, if you grow up repressed, it's INCREDIBLY hard to bust OUT of that repression. You keep saying 'if she'd just come on to me' and some such. Well, that's like saying you should just be comfortable wearing a skirt and bra out in public. Easy to say you could do it if you had to, but when the time comes, your BRAIN is keeping you in your comfort zone, your fear is keeping you from taking that step. I'm in NO way covering for her cheating. I'm trying to explain why she has a hard time being that flirty slut you assume she was in the affair.

And then she gets up the nerve to 'be' what you want and flirt with you, and what do you do? Bring up her shame. Of course she turned off.

JMHO.

Edited January 6, 2016 by turnera

January 6, 2016

A couple thoughts. You said she was submissive, kind of backward, passive. Many women are this way. Don't own their sexual identity. Feel shame or guilt or fear judgment about being sexual. BTDT. And then she ... finds herself in the middle of a forbidden affair, where they can be 'a different person' and they let loose, like their upbringing wouldn't allow them to be. And then the bubble bursts, and they're back in the real world, facing shame all over again, of a different sort. So she is back to being repressed, afraid to be aggressive or sexual. Even when you ask for it.

And so you know, if you grow up repressed, it's INCREDIBLY hard to bust OUT of that repression. You keep saying 'if she'd just come on to me' and some such. Well, that's like saying you should just be comfortable wearing a skirt and bra out in public. Easy to say you could do it if you had to, but when the time comes, your BRAIN is keeping you in your comfort zone, your fear is keeping you from taking that step. I'm in NO way covering for her cheating. I'm trying to explain why she has a hard time being that flirty slut you assume she was in the affair.

And then she gets up the nerve to 'be' what you want and flirt with you, and what do you do? Bring up her shame. Of course she turned off.

JMHO.

I understand all these things. Actually, before the affair, I have never made her feel any shame or guilt about expressing her sexuality, about expressing her emotions and about being flirty.

After her affair, because of my own emotional state and mistrust, I have not always been able to respond positively, not because of any factor to do with her, but because of my own emotional roller coaster of state (which is only to be expected).

How do we get through this seeming impasse on which we both seem stuck, in a deadlock?

January 6, 2016

I understand all these things. Actually, before the affair, I have never made her feel any shame or guilt about expressing her sexuality, about expressing her emotions and about being flirty.

You misunderstand me. The feelings of shame or guilt are what some WOMEN feel, inside themselves, and which they rarely, if ever, express to anyone - including their husband. If you want to learn more read up on it. There's an awesome new book about how this is indoctrinated into tween females - wanting to be sexual but being treated in a double standard.

UnSlut - Zest Books

It might help you to learn more about what it looks like from HER perspective. And mind you, this isn't something you just wake up and get over. It's part of who you are.

January 6, 2016

This is my 1 year anniversary of my life being shattered. Not D-day, that came 8 months later really. But it all started New Years Day last year.

Can I ask you a question that will TRULY help me? Please be honest...

When you're depressed do you honestly have No, Zero, zip control over what you say & how you behave?

I know it's hard because you're the bs & my husband is the WS. It makes all the difference in the world!

You're one of the first people I've known be so open about your feelings & reactions who's got some similarities. To be honest I'm in floods of tears, having one of those looking at my bottle of pain meds nights...thinking how very easy it would be to just fall asleep forever.... Don't worry. I never would but it's so very tempting.

I truly love my husband. There are times that I'm in a horrible mood. I want to say & do cruel things just to release the pressure & a little revenge, to make him feel a little of the pain he's inflicted on me.
Something stops me!! I can't be mean. I can't be cruel...even if it's the truth.

I don't believe "You always hurt the one you love!". I truly believe that "You always take any amount of hurt to protect the one you love!".

In our house my H's depression is a get-out-of-jail-free card. That's a sarcastic saying. I don't mean that. I truly believe that he can't control his passive aggressive nature or his depressive tendencies....even when we were blissful in our honeymoon phase he suffered from depression. It's very real. He's possibly bipolar.

Even before the A. When you had your 'episodes' did you say & do mean things that you just couldn't stop?

I don't mind if you private message me...or anyone else who suffers from mood-swings, bipolar, depression or passive aggressive (most won't admit to that one) help! Melt down time. Ugh!!!

ShatteredLady,

I owed you a reply to your question so here it is:

Quote: "When you're depressed do you honestly have No, Zero, zip control over what you say & how you behave?"

Are you referring to the depression I experienced 8 years ago when my aunt passed away or the depression I feel as a result of my wife's affair?

My symptoms were a little different.

Assuming you're referring to the depression I feel recently, because of my wife's affair, I do have control over what I say, but sometimes I have no control from being silent. Sometimes, I cannot help but NOT want to approach or talk to my wife. Sometimes, it feels like I would rather not even see her face by making an effort to do so, although, interestingly, if she were to make the effort to see how I was doing, it arouses a sense of empathy towards her. Its almost like I feel disgusted with myself and with her if I try to make any effort to see or talk to her, but that disgust seems to (atleast partly or temporarily) convert to empathy for her if she makes the effort. I'm not quite able to understand this feeling, but I think that mentally, I seem to justify not feeling like connecting with her (I feel frozen, like my body would have to rebel with my mind and emotions to connect with her), but then seem to justify feeling empathy towards her when she makes the effort. It almost feels like I'm judging her affair and lack of support for me healing and then rescuing her from my own judgement when she demonstrates support for me. Like I said, emotionally, I'm reacting very severely.

I feel just like you do about never having to wake up and deal with the pain ever again. Infact, my worst nightmares seem more tolerable than the "reality" I experience every morning, realizing (in surprise and shock) that the events in my life "are really true". Its my life and reality (early every morning after I wake up) that initially seem like a bad nightmare and my nightmares that I wish were real instead. In other words, it seems like I'm mentally trying to trade in my real life for my nightmares. That is how much pain I experience in my real life. I'm sure you may understand that feeling.

I also feel that way.... Somehow, I can't be (act) cruel to my wife. Its just not me, although the anger and disgust are feelings that I do get, many times during the day.

During my depression earlier, before the affair when my aunt passed away, I was not in control of long bouts of crying (just as I'm also not, recently). I was also bipolar, but this only lasted during the duration of my depression. I did have control over what I said, but did not have much control over how I felt or control over my silence (I think you or some people refer to that as passive aggression)

January 6, 2016

Eventually, this person started getting what he wanted and stopped treating her the way she imagined the perfect man he used to project himself to be.

Frankly, I think that what the problem really is was clear from post number one.

She didn't stop the affair because she tought it was wrong, or because she wanted to be with OP.

She stopped it because the OM wasn't what she tought he was.

In other words she's not sorry for the affair, she's sorry she had it with the wrong guy.

In other words she tought she had found a better deal, but she hadn't, so she went back to plan B. The OP.

The OP knows in his heart that he's plan B, and that's why he can't get over it, even if he wants.

His longing for her to give him porn star sex is actually his longing to see her wanting him like she wanted the OM. So he could believe that he's not plan B.

But he was, and probably still is.

Just my two cents.

January 6, 2016

99% of us already figured that out a long time ago There is only one left who is willfully naive.

January 6, 2016

Frankly, I think that what the problem really is was clear from post number one.

She didn't stop the affair because she tought it was wrong, or because she wanted to be with OP.

She stopped it because the OM wasn't what she tought he was.

In other words she's not sorry for the affair, she's sorry she had it with the wrong guy.

In other words she tought she had found a better deal, but she hadn't, so she went back to plan B. The OP.

The OP knows in his heart that he's plan B, and that's why he can't get over it, even if he wants.

His longing for her to give him porn star sex is actually his longing to see her wanting him like she wanted the OM. So he could believe that he's not plan B.

But he was, and probably still is.

Just my two cents.

From my conversations I have had with my wife during the course of all this time, since the affair, it is very evident that my wife considered our relationship to be dead, before the affair. This obviously means that I was Plan B at that time. She probably felt (although she has not directly admitted it, even when I asked several times) that she could continue with me for whatever else I offered (financial stability, the house to live in, and an unsuspecting and trusting husrband) and to maintain the comfort of the kids. She probably felt that she could get her emotional satisfaction by maintaining this relationship with the affair partner to get what I seemingly did not offer (i.e. the opportunity for financial freedom and the opportunity for her self expression and the opportunity to think of her own needs for herself, to spend money on things that she wanted to). That was then.

In a conversation that I had with her this morning, she says that she realized her mistakes and she has started to see me in a new perspective, and the "fog" has been clearing about her possible misperceptions about me. She told me that even though her feelings are not at full strength for me, they are starting to "bud" in this new light and new perspective and it feels like a "new" relationship for her. She is asking me to be more patient for her to fully develop her feelings for me.

To me, it seems like her affair partner turned out to be NOT what she expected him to be (It was a sham) and she landed up getting used by him, so my guess is that he probably dropped from her most trusted friend and confidante to the "monster" she now calls him. And then, that might have caused her to "rethink" about me (even though she still had those perceptions about me being very controlling). In the last few months, all the changes I have agreed to make and implemented (her taking full control and responsibility of her share of our money), have probably proved to her that she truly just had misperceptions that I wanted to control her.

So, now it seems to be some kind of a "waiting" game. I have clearly told her that I have lost "all" feelings for her and that we are now simply hanging on a thin thread of any feelings that she may have for me (which she says are "budding"). Under these circumstances, isn't it obvious that if the relationship now survives, it can only happen based on her feelings for me (which may or may not initially continue to grow) and we cannot depend on my feelings for her? (which are completely dead)

Eventually my feelings may get resurrected, but the initial energy seems to only depend on her feelings for me (at this stage).

January 6, 2016

So, now it seems to be some kind of a "waiting" game. I have clearly told her that I have lost "all" feelings for her and that we are now simply hanging on a thin thread of any feelings that she may have for me (which she says are "budding"). Under these circumstances, isn't it obvious that if the relationship now survives, it can only happen based on her feelings for me (which may or may not initially continue to grow) and we cannot depend on my feelings for her? (which are completely dead)

Eventually my feelings may get resurrected, but the initial energy seems to only depend on her feelings for me (at this stage).

If you have lost all feelings for her as you stated and she has basically lost her feeling for you. What are you trying to save? So, given the situation, she is seeing if her love for you can be restored (budding). Ins essence you two do not love each other. Why try to save a loveless marriage?

January 6, 2016

If you have lost all feelings for her as you stated and she has basically lost her feeling for you. What are you trying to save? So, given the situation, she is seeing if her love for you can be restored (budding). Ins essence you two do not love each other. Why try to save a loveless marriage?

Practically speaking, its a matter of 3 things:

1) An investment of the prior 15 years, in which we atleast know each other's strengths, weaknesses and have now realized and adjusted our expectations based on the other person's capability and identity.

2) There is too much to lose: The kids, the financial implications of a divorce and the aftermath of pain for everyone in the family that is bound to ensue.

3) The even greater uncertainty of another relationship working out. Research shows that if people don't fix themselves completely in a relationship that went bad, the chances of reoccurence of the "next" relationship going bad are very very high. Also, a new relationship always entails the process of rediscovery of a new partner and new variables and dynamics that get introduced, increasing the level of uncertainty, as compared to a situation in which partners have already discovered each other (to a large degree) and the variables and dynamics are already known.

Also, the biggest reason of ALL: That there is a chance of our feelings coming back (I see hints of her changed behaviors and actions already, that prove this is possible, atleast from the perspective of her feelings coming back for me)

January 6, 2016

Reconciliation is difficult in the best of circumstances... What I mean by that is... In our case for example... Everything sort of fell into place. Had one thing been different... I am not sure we would have reconciled at all.

We both still loved each other... We did not have enough money to support two households.... We had two small children....we never separated... We never stopped having sex....

It took us years and I mean years to get where we are...

When I look at your situation I truly feel like you are trying to do the impossible...recapture what you had.

You both no longer love each other.

If you don't even have love as a foundation....what do you build on?

All the reasons you stated... Don't equal a foundation of love and respect and commitment. You cannot reconcile alone and since neither if you love each other... I feel you are destined to fail.

I am a reconciliation supporter... But I am realistic enough to see you are trying to save something... But it isn't the marriage....

January 6, 2016

In a conversation that I had with her this morning, she says that she realized her mistakes and she has started to see me in a new perspective, and the "fog" has been clearing about her possible misperceptions about me. She told me that even though her feelings are not at full strength for me, they are starting to "bud" in this new light and new perspective and it feels like a "new" relationship for her. She is asking me to be more patient for her to fully develop her feelings for me.

Why are you making this so complicated?!

From reading your copious posts I gather that you want her to be passionately in love with you and stroke your sexual ego. You are asking for passion, or at least physical touch. You can NOT force passion, yet that is what you are trying to do. It is not there!

She is not remorseful. You can't make her remorseful.

Just file for divorce already, and stop putting yourself through this self-inflicted torture.

January 6, 2016

Reconciliation is difficult in the best of circumstances... What I mean by that is... In our case for example... Everything sort of fell into place. Had one thing been different... I am not sure we would have reconciled at all.

We both still loved each other... We did not have enough money to support two households.... We had two small children....we never separated... We never stopped having sex....

It took us years and I mean years to get where we are...

When I look at your situation I truly feel like you are trying to do the impossible...recapture what you had.
You both no longer love each other.

If you don't even have love as a foundation....what do you build on?

All the reasons you stated... Don't equal a foundation of love and respect and commitment. You cannot reconcile alone and since neither if you love each other... I feel you are destined to fail.

I am a reconciliation supporter... But I am realistic enough to see you are trying to save something... But it isn't the marriage....

I understand that reconciliation is a very difficult, precarious, and lengthy process. What we have as our foundations (to build upon) is a matter of perspective. Currently, because of the emotional turmoil, sometimes, we may be very clouded in what we feel and it may not reflect reality. e.g., if for some reason, I am physically hurt and my wife came to be by my side, our foundational feelings would clear. The fact that we are already giving each other some space to clear our own fogs is proof that we are already respecting each other. Even though we're not currently "in love" with each other, the fact that we're caring for each other (to some degree) does show that we love each other. One way of figuring out what we do have as foundations is to start rebuilding the house from scratch. If the foundation continues to hold a house that is being rebuilt, then it means that the foundation was strong enough.

Also, proof always lies in action. Also the foundation itself can be repaired based on action, so for example, if we put in the action to support our hopes, then the reality of the action and results would itself repair the foundation. If there is no positive "action", then there obviously will be no possibility of any repair. Love is an ACTION word, as another poster rightly pointed out and at this point, I do see some ACTION that my wife is putting in.

January 6, 2016

Yeah, OP, you used a plethora of words to basically confirm what I wrote.

She tought she got a better deal, it wasn't, and came back for practical reasons.

You both lost your feelings for each other but are staying together for practical reasons.

I don't think there is any chance to go back to a sentimentally gratifying situation for both.

My take is your alternatives are:

- treat this like a business decision. You both consider convenient carrying on the marriage so just get the best deal possible, knowing that love is a different thing.

- call it quits and look somewhere else for sentimental happiness.

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