He Doesn't Know if He Believes in Marriage

[sambolini]

Sambolini... It's not because women initiate 70% of divorces that they are the only ones wanting the divorce. Most of them are forced to leave - because most men don't care either way, from the moment they've emotionally desinvested. It takes a lot of energy & force to leave. S/he who leaves has to deal not only with the pain of the separation but with the guilt of having given up. In most of my RS, I have left. It was my free Choice maybe in a quater of cases... 75% i felt i had no other choice...

 

If I may... Women need men and partners dearly. It would be a pity to let those deamons from your past and feeling of rejection create a distorted image of women and their potential of truly investing emotionally in a relationship. I may be self sufficient as an individual, I am incomplete as a woman. I do feel I want and need a partner. Not any partner and not immediately. A decent man.

 

I am sorry you've had such a difficult marriage. Just... Remember that the world is a huge huge place, filled with both horrible & wonderful people. Seek better and aim high .

 

I hear you, but you're only proving my point. Those men were a burden to you, so you left. If the majority of men are a burden to women, then it's in both of our best interests to not marry.

[sambolini]

to quote a big guy "there are lies, there are bigger lies, and then there's statistics". Question the logic behind that high number & research it a bit.

 

I work in IT as a data analyzer and statistician. I build highly complex reports based on millions of rows of data. I know they can be massaged.

 

With that being said, they can only be massaged so much. I've had to tell that to my superiors multiple times and back up that claim with hard numbers.

[candie13]

I hear you, but you're only proving my point. Those men were a burden to you, so you left. If the majority of men are a burden to women, then it's in both of our best interests to not marry.

commitment phobic, emotionally unavailable, insecure... I can't have a RS by myself, ideally my partner wants me and puts effort into the RS instead of running away and then coming back and then running away again. I can't be in a RS like that and I for sure won't get into a marriage like that.

 

But i don't think all men are like that either. I know there are great decent guys out there. I hope the man I've started to see is that. I hope we will have a good happy RS and i do hope I will have children & get married, one day. It's not because I've had some sour love experiences that all men are unworthy of trust or unable to commit. Hell, maybe the same men I've left will be able to give all that to other Women whom they find more suitable... We all want to be loved & accepted and appreciated, but it's practically impossible to have the whole world love & appreciate me. One decent guy. It's all it takes . So this is why I try to take it really easy, to get to know the guy in front of me and not make projections & not build expectations. Just a regular dude. It may work out, it may not. He seems cool. We'll see ☺️

[sambolini]

commitment phobic, emotinally unavailable, insecure... I can't have a RS Bf myself, ideally my partner wants me and puts effort into the RS instead of running away and then coming back and then running away again. I can't be in a RS like that and I for sure won't get into a marriage like that.

 

But i don't think all men are like that either. I know there are great decent guys out there. I hope the man I've started to see is that. I hope we will have a good happy RS and i do hope I will have children & get married, one day. It's not because I've had some sour love experiences that all men are unworthy of trust or unable to commit. Hell, maybe the same men I've left will be able to give all that to other Women whom they find more suitable... We all want to be loved & accepted and appreciated, but it's practically impossible to have the whole world love & appreciate me. One decent guy. It's all it takes . So this is why I try to take it really easy, to get to know the guy in front of me and not make projections & not build expectations. Just a regular dude. It may work out, it may not. He seems cool. We'll see ☺️

 

That's perfectly fine. If this makes you happy, go for it.

 

I personally don't find any value in marriage or relationships in general. They have brought very little value to my life. This sentiment is growing for men, too.

 

I don't make decisions based on emotion. I make all decisions logically. And there is no logical reason for me to marry, have more kids, or even enter relationships. I get immense value from my daughter, but having more kids and risk being someone else's wage slave would be illogical.

 

I have my freedom, independence, and means to do as I please. I don't ever see a woman ever making me want to give that up.

[candie13]

I work in IT as a data analyzer and statistician. I build highly complex reports based on millions of rows of data. I know they can be massaged.

 

With that being said, they can only be massaged so much. I've had to tell that to my superiors multiple times and back up that claim with hard numbers.

there is an emotional & intuitive meaning behind that large number. Look at the bigger picture, understand from a sociological and psychological perspective the reality behind that 70%. Don't let it blind you.

 

You See women who don't Need men. I see women more frail & unable to stay in RS that make then miserable & having the courage to clean up the mess. You mean to tell me all 70% of those men were happy and their wives woke up one morning deciding to leave? It takes a lot of guts and pain to push a woman to leave her marriage, in my humble opinion.

 

Like... Look at physical abuse and its incidence in marriages. Who will leave, in your opinion, him or her,

[candie13]

That's perfectly fine. If this makes you happy, go for it.

 

I personally don't find any value in marriage or relationships in general. They have brought very little value to my life. This sentiment is growing for men, too.

 

I don't make decisions based on emotion. I make all decisions logically. And there is no logical reason for me to marry, have more kids, or even enter relationships. I get immense value from my daughter, but having more kids and risk being someone else's wage slave would be illogical.

 

I have my freedom, independence, and means to do as I please. I don't ever see a woman ever making me want to give that up.

the moment you will understand you don't have to give those things up, yet still be in a happy RS - marriage or not - you will be free. Marriage can be soooooo much more than slavery. You can be inlove & not be a slave .

[candie13]

That's perfectly fine. If this makes you happy, go for it.

 

I personally don't find any value in marriage or relationships in general. They have brought very little value to my life. This sentiment is growing for men, too.

 

I don't make decisions based on emotion. I make all decisions logically. And there is no logical reason for me to marry, have more kids, or even enter relationships. I get immense value from my daughter, but having more kids and risk being someone else's wage slave would be illogical.

 

I have my freedom, independence, and means to do as I please. I don't ever see a woman ever making me want to give that up.

Question: would you be willing to admit that a woman may love you and may sincerely want to love you for yourself and not for your money & benefits? Would you be willing to consider that you are worthy of love, pure Love, with no hidden schemes to "get you"? I think you should aim for that... But first step is always the awareness.... There is love free of charge. You deserve love free of charge. There are people / women worthy of your trust and able to give back that unconditional love.

[sambolini]

the moment you will understand you don't have to give those things up, yet still be in a happy RS - marriage or not - you will be free. Marriage can be soooooo much more than slavery. You can be inlove & not be a slave .

 

I don't believe that to be true. With the concept of "a wife's money is her money, a husband's money is the family's money" being so prevalent in today's society, I just can't accept what you're saying to be accurate.

 

Your words are great, but our society as a whole doesn't work that way.

[sambolini]

Question: would you be willing to admit that a woman may love you and may sincerely want to love you for yourself and not for your money & benefits? Would you be willing to consider that you are worthy of love, pure Love, with no hidden schemes to "get you"? I think you should aim for that... But first step is always the awareness.... There is love free of charge. You deserve love free of charge. There are people / women worthy of your trust and able to give back that unconditional love.

 

Am I worthy of love? Absolutely.

 

Do I think women will ever view me as more than an ATM? I'm not so sure. I definitely think there are great ladies out there. But, if given the opportunity, the majority of them will take what they can get. That's just human nature.

 

Where I take issue with it is that our justice system allows this to happen. Our culture disapproves of anything critical of women. For men to come out and say, "The system is biased and unjust" would imply that they were in error. This means that men can't change the system; it'll take women to do it.

 

I have no faith that will ever happen. And a one in four chance for success are not good odds.

 

I don't think all these women are divorcing bad men, but I'm willing to split the 70% figure with you and say, 35% are due to bad men and 35% are due to bad women.

 

That means that half have their own issues if they are willing to marry these men knowing who and what they are (and therefore responsible for their decision to say "I do" knowing the kind of person he was), yet refuse to take any responsibility for willingly coupling with these men; VAWA ensures that men are guilty until proven innocent of physical violence against women, so there is no merit to "being afraid to leave" today. While the other half are completely untrustworthy and won't hesitate to clean a guy out. So I'm left with two options: 1) women who mate with sociopaths, or 2) women who are sociopaths.

 

That's not exactly a good selection pool. And certainly not one worth risking marriage for.

 

Again, I'm only speaking for me. I'm not trying to deter anyone from marrying or coupling. This applies to me and me alone. My only goal is for the OP to get a glimpse of the thought processes from a third party who also doesn't believe in marriage (like her partner).

 

Okay, I have to cook dinner for my daughter and I. They eat you out of house and home when they're growing!

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

My only goal is for the OP to get a glimpse of the thought processes from a third party who also doesn't believe in marriage (like her partner).

 

From my perspective your goal was to try and convince others why marriage is a bad investment. All the while painting marriage as a sinister plot against men. Maybe I read your posts wrong?

 

Edit: also we know very little about the OP's partners thoughts on the subject of marriage and exactly what his issue with it is.

Edited December 5, 2015 by T-16bullseyeWompRat

[sambolini]

From my perspective your goal was to try and convince others why marriage is a bad investment. All the while painting marriage as a sinister plot against men. Maybe I read your posts wrong?

 

Edit: also we know very little about the OP's partners thoughts on the subject of marriage and exactly what his issue with it is.

 

That is my perception of it. I explained why. But I have always said that people are welcome to disagree with me. I don't take offense if someone disagrees. We all have our own unique experiences; generally, there's overlap due to commonalities inherent to the culture, and it's that general rule, the most likely statistical occurrence, that I find pertinent.

 

But I have always said that it's not representative of every human being. That would be impossible.

 

True, we don't know exactly why. But it sounds like she doesn't know, either. I'm offering suggestions as to why, based on my perceptions and experience. What she does with it is up to her. She can take it, or she can discard it; that's up to her.

[Mr. Lucky]

Where I take issue with it is that our justice system allows this to happen. Our culture disapproves of anything critical of women. For men to come out and say, "The system is biased and unjust" would imply that they were in error. This means that men can't change the system; it'll take women to do it.

 

Which gender is primarily responsible for the creation of the system you're so eager to disparage?

 

Mr. Lucky

[candie13]

Am I worthy of love? Absolutely.

 

Do I think women will ever view me as more than an ATM? I'm not so sure. I definitely think there are great ladies out there. But, if given the opportunity, the majority of them will take what they can get. That's just human nature.

 

Where I take issue with it is that our justice system allows this to happen. Our culture disapproves of anything critical of women. For men to come out and say, "The system is biased and unjust" would imply that they were in error. This means that men can't change the system; it'll take women to do it.

 

I have no faith that will ever happen. And a one in four chance for success are not good odds.

 

I don't think all these women are divorcing bad men, but I'm willing to split the 70% figure with you and say, 35% are due to bad men and 35% are due to bad women.

 

That means that half have their own issues if they are willing to marry these men knowing who and what they are (and therefore responsible for their decision to say "I do" knowing the kind of person he was), yet refuse to take any responsibility for willingly coupling with these men; VAWA ensures that men are guilty until proven innocent of physical violence against women, so there is no merit to "being afraid to leave" today. While the other half are completely untrustworthy and won't hesitate to clean a guy out. So I'm left with two options: 1) women who mate with sociopaths, or 2) women who are sociopaths.

 

That's not exactly a good selection pool. And certainly not one worth risking marriage for.

 

my only comment to this is the following: we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.

 

Infinite shades of grey between your 1st and 2nd option. Perhaps it's more comfortable to stick to those 2 and ignore the sea of other options in between. Whenever you're ready, poster, it's only your life .

[sambolini]

Which gender is primarily responsible for the creation of the system you're so eager to disparage?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

The one that benefits the most from the current paradigm.

[sambolini]

my only comment to this is the following: we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.

 

Infinite shades of grey between your 1st and 2nd option. Perhaps it's more comfortable to stick to those 2 and ignore the sea of other options in between. Whenever you're ready, poster, it's only your life .

 

Yes. It is my life. Your post implies that my life doesn't truly begin unless there's a woman in it. Whereas I see it as the exact opposite.

[basil67]

Do I think women will ever view me as more than an ATM? I'm not so sure. I definitely think there are great ladies out there. But, if given the opportunity, the majority of them will take what they can get. That's just human nature.

 

If (heaven forbid) I was to find myself widowed and single, I would be worth quite a bit of money. (Property inflation where I live is insane). If I was to have another partner, I would have him sign a pre-nup saying that my house and all my assets will be transferred to my children upon my death.

 

Would you sign a pre-nup if your wife was wealthier than you?

[Woggle]

I am very happy in my marriage but I fully understand men who are against it. I have seen enough horror stories to know that it took an extraordinary woman to make me even consider it. What helped was that she genuinely tried to understand why I was scared to do it again instead of acting like I owed her a ring. When a woman genuinely tries to see the male perspective on these issues she is a rare gem.

 

The vast majority of marriage these days have very little to do with actual love. Even though I am happily married I often wonder if we should just scrap the institution all together because it is clearly not working for most people.

[candie13]

Yes. It is my life. Your post implies that my life doesn't truly begin unless there's a woman in it. Whereas I see it as the exact opposite.

 

Oh no, i am not implying that. Happiness & feeling complete has to so with yourself not on your single/ marital status.

 

My point was that you seem to think that there are only 2 types of women - getting divorced: abusers or those getting abused. Soooo many other types in between!!!

[Lois_Griffin]

I don't believe that to be true. With the concept of "a wife's money is her money, a husband's money is the family's money" being so prevalent in today's society, I just can't accept what you're saying to be accurate.

 

Your words are great, but our society as a whole doesn't work that way.

Don't know what pocket of the supposedly civilized world YOU live in, but I don't know ONE couple - where both are working outside the home - that has this belief. Not ONE. Every single two-income couple I know occasionally complains that even with two salaries it's still sometimes tough to cover the high cost of heating oil or groceries for a family of 5, etc. etc. Never ONCE in my 50+ years have I ever heard a man complain that his wife's salary was her own and that only HIS was utilized for living expenses. Never.

 

My husband and I both work and we both have our paychecks put into our joint checking account. Never once have either of us referred to my paycheck as 'my' money and his as 'ours.'

 

And let's just be honest for a minute, here. Not every man is such a high earner that his salary ALONE can successfully provide for his family 100% while allowing his wife to blow her weekly paycheck on $300 pairs of shoes and $400 designer purses. That doesn't happen in most middle class families and it certainly doesn't happen in lower class ones.

[oldshirt]

I'll be blunt, I really have no sympathy or shed any tears for men that have to pay child support. Most child support schedules are based on some kind of standardized scale so assuming that some rogue feminist judge didn't get really pissed off and decided to make an example of some guy by really sticking him with some over the top support payments, I really shed no tears over guys that have to pay child support. If you have kids, you have to support them whether they are in your home or out of your home. If you don't want to pay for kids, a vasectomy takes 7 minutes (I literally timed mine) and is covered by insurance.

 

 

And quite frankly, paying child support in many instances is probably less than actually having them in your home 100% of the time if you want to just look at it purely in dollars and sense.

 

 

If fathers don't support their children, then us taxpayers do, and I don't want to pay for some other dude's kids.

 

 

So when fathers whine about having to pay child support, it's annoying white noise to me.

 

 

Sorry, kids are expensive. if guys want money for beer and picking up chicks and man-toys, don't have kids. Vasectomys are real cheap and are only uncomfortable for a couple days.

[oldshirt]

now spousal support is a little different. I can see why people get up in arms about that.

 

 

I too would have an issue if my wife left me for some rich dude yet I was the one that had to write out a monthly check for her. Yes, that's an issue, no argument for me, that's a shi^^y thing and that is something worth fighting against on a societal level.

 

 

I have an 11 year old son and this is one of the things that worry about for him. I hope his mother and I have set a good example for him and have set a bar of expectation for him.

 

 

His mother has always worked and always had her own education and professional income. While the kids were babies and little, she worked weekend package and was home with them during the week and I had them on weekends, but she was never completely unemployed.

 

 

She now is fully employed and has an income similar to mine. If we were to divorce I would either have 50/50 custody or would have some child support bill. But as I said above, you pay for kids and I doubt if in dollars and cents if my child support bill would be any more than I paying for them in my home.

 

 

If guys are so afraid of paying for women post divorce, then only marry educated, gainfully employed women and let them sit home on the coach watching soaps while married.

 

 

While I chose to be married, I was very fortunate in that my wife has a very solid work ethic and was innately always wanting to have a career. If I was born back in an era where it was shameful and disgraceful to have a wife that worked outside the home, I probably would have never married in the first place.

 

 

My rationale for not marrying would not have been fear of divorce and alimony per se, but simply because I as a man have never felt the need or desire to completely support another able bodied adult financially.

 

 

I didn't have an issue carrying the majority of financial burden when the kids were little, but other than that, I would never completely support another adult even if I were wealthy enough to do so.

[Mr. Lucky]

now spousal support is a little different. I can see why people get up in arms about that.

 

It depends on the situation and timing.

 

While I chose to be married, I was very fortunate in that my wife has a very solid work ethic

 

My wife similarly had a strong work ethic (and graduate school degree) but with 4 kids over 15 years her efforts were focused on diapers, homework and child-rearing. Had our marriage dissolved after she'd shelved her career in support of me and family - and my earning potential had advanced, how would spousal support not be appropriate? She had as much "sweat equity" in my career as I did.

 

Don't see how anyone would see fairness in having the husband walk with the executive earning potential both developed while the Mrs., unemployed for the last 20 years, works at Walmart.

 

The one that benefits the most from the current paradigm.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Probably because, as everyone knows, women have historically and traditionally had such a strong voice and proportional representation in the legal, civic, religious and cultural institutions that have shaped that paradigm ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sambolini]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Probably because, as everyone knows, women have historically and traditionally had such a strong voice and proportional representation in the legal, civic, religious and cultural institutions that have shaped that paradigm ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

For the last 40 to 50 years, they have. Feminism and women's issues have dominated the cultural debate. I'm not saying they're unimportant, but I am saying they are not more important than men's issues. They are of equal weight.

 

I don't care what happened 100 years ago. I wasn't there and had nothing to do with women's oppression. That'd be like a poor black person coming up to me as a white man and saying, "You owe me money because slavery." No. I didn't participate in it. I had nothing to do with it. As such, I reject any notion of a social debt that I owe any individual.

 

I'm interested in the culture today, because I live today. I didn't live back then.

 

I don't have an issue with child support in theory. Where I take issue with it is when the courts allow a cheating wife to have the majority of time with said child and order the faithful, hard working husband to pay her child support because they gave her that majority time.

 

Any system that allows that to happen is broken. And to say, "Well, since women were oppressed in the past, you're going to have to accept your own oppression today" is utterly ludicrous. Oppression of any kind is wrong, regardless of who it affects.

Edited December 5, 2015 by sambolini

[sambolini]

Don't know what pocket of the supposedly civilized world YOU live in, but I don't know ONE couple - where both are working outside the home - that has this belief. Not ONE. Every single two-income couple I know occasionally complains that even with two salaries it's still sometimes tough to cover the high cost of heating oil or groceries for a family of 5, etc. etc. Never ONCE in my 50+ years have I ever heard a man complain that his wife's salary was her own and that only HIS was utilized for living expenses. Never.

 

My husband and I both work and we both have our paychecks put into our joint checking account. Never once have either of us referred to my paycheck as 'my' money and his as 'ours.'

 

And let's just be honest for a minute, here. Not every man is such a high earner that his salary ALONE can successfully provide for his family 100% while allowing his wife to blow her weekly paycheck on $300 pairs of shoes and $400 designer purses. That doesn't happen in most middle class families and it certainly doesn't happen in lower class ones.

 

It happened to me. And it's happened to many other men.

 

Just because you have never experienced it doesn't mean nobody has. Your experience is not indicative of the whole.

 

Likewise, my experience is also not indicative of the whole. I've been saying that from the beginning. But since it's a relatively common experience of a sizable subset of the whole, and since I myself have fallen into that subset...

 

The central issue is that I'm not going to place myself in any position where I would ever owe another able bodied human adult money, regardless of the reason. Child support, alimony, comingled funds/assets, you name it.

 

As part of my divorce decree, I had to refinance the house to get my ex wife's name off of it. Three years ago, my parents offered to co sign so I could do it sooner.

 

I refused. I waited until I was in a position to do it entirely on my own. I didn't want to be indebted to them in this way, but more importantly, I wanted the house in my name only. It's my house, both in possession and in deed and title.

 

So it's not even just in marriage or relationships. It's about all aspects of my life. What is mine, is mine.

[oldshirt]

It depends on the situation and timing.

 

 

 

My wife similarly had a strong work ethic (and graduate school degree) but with 4 kids over 15 years her efforts were focused on diapers, homework and child-rearing. Had our marriage dissolved after she'd shelved her career in support of me and family - and my earning potential had advanced, how would spousal support not be appropriate? She had as much "sweat equity" in my career as I did.

 

Don't see how anyone would see fairness in having the husband walk with the executive earning potential both developed while the Mrs., unemployed for the last 20 years, works at Walmart.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you to a point. In the scenario you described, I don't think anyone would really have a valid argument against some kind of reasonable support until a time she was able to get on her feet and be self-supporting.

 

 

Here is my point, there is where I think things should be a little situational.

 

 

If some gal walks away from her H and home and family to take up with some other dude or just decides she doesn't want to be tied down with marriage any more (ie situations of her own adultery or walk-away-wife syndrome) why should her xH subsidize that???????

 

 

Now if the executive husband kicks out his wife of 20 and sends her and their kids packing because he wants to take up with his 22 year old secretary, then yeah sure, he should provide her support until a time she is able to support herself.

 

 

And as I said above, child support (or some form of equitable child custody and care arrangement) should be a given.

 

 

But as far as women choosing to leave the marriage of their own volition, I'm pretty much with Sambolini and I see no reason the xH should have to subsidize it.

 

 

This is the one area I think the 'no-fault' divorce movement went a little too far. I'm generally supportive of 'no-fault', but I do think that if someone is voluntarily leaving a marriage because they want to, I see absolutely no reason the other spouse should have to pay for it.

 

 

If someone is getting dumped, kicked out, cheated on or physically abused, that is different. But if someone is voluntarily leaving the marriage because they found someone else or simply because they want to, that should be on their own dime.

 

 

If you want my support, you can stay married to me and stay out of other people's beds. If you want to leave, fine. But I see no reason I should have to provide any support of that.