He Doesn't Know if He Believes in Marriage

[oldshirt]

Precisely. Marriage is important in court. But it's not important to a relationship.

Marriage doesn't magically make a relationship better. It doesn't make someone love you more. It doesn't make them more sexually attracted to you.

 

All it does is get the government involved in your personal life.

 

And anyone who says "I want to get married because legal rights" should be avoided at all costs. That person will end up costing you money.

 

 

 

But the flip side here is that a person who says they don't want to marry and that marriage is not important to them is basically saying, "I may want to hang out and have fun with you now, but I want to be able to walk away scot free the moment I'm not having fun or if I happen to run into someone I think I might like better."

 

 

Marriage was never intended to be about love or feelings. It was always a legal construct from the beginning to provide a legal framework to ensure that the children would be provided for and to document their lineage and to provide a legal means to pass down family properties. and it is also to legally protect someone from their partner and coparent from taking all of the marital assets and abandoning them without protection.

 

 

Marriage is a legally binding agent that makes commitment to stay with someone and not abandon them and their children legally recognized and legally enforceable.

 

 

Having shared property (ie a home, cars, assets etc) and children without marriage puts both men and women at increased risk and increased complexity to being abandoned or to someone walking away with shared assets.

 

 

Now to be fair and realistic, even if a couple is not legally married, in the event of abandonment, theft, or the break up a relationship, there will still be legal protections in place and still be legal recourse available to secure child support and the division of assets and property etc etc. But it can make that process more challenging and complex.

 

 

cont....

[oldshirt]

cont...

 

 

 

 

So it comes down to a question of the individual's goals and objectives.

 

 

If your objective is to not own shared property with someone and not to have children with that person and you want to be able to walk away from then without complications or legal obligations should you get tired of them or find someone better, then it is clearly in your better interests to NOT marry them and live as two single people and just spend time together.

 

 

But if you do want to have a home and children with someone, it's in the better interest of both men and women and especially the children to have a marital contract in place as this protects both parties interests in the property and the raising of the children.

 

 

Men have historically bitched that they were the ones losing their property and incomes to women in the event of divorce because historically it was men who worked outside the home, but it's kind of a misnomer. The purpose of marriage as a legal institution is to protect the mother and children from paternal abandonment and denial if the men walked away.

 

 

Legally the woman's efforts and labors inside the home feeding and rearing children were determined to be of equal importance to the home and children as the man's labors outside the home and thus the concept of alimony and child support was born.

 

 

In modern western world today, women typically have roughly equal education and income potential as men and there for it marriage as a legal framework can be viewed as protecting the property and child rights to both parties.

 

 

As women are still typically the ones that do the majority of child rearing and are typically the ones that either take time off of employment or even exit the job market for period of time to raise the children, that legal protection of their property rights (ie roof over their head) and their rights to financial support (ie child support and alimony if there is a big discrepancy in incomes) do carry the greater importance although the growing trend of the wives outearning the husbands cannot be dismissed.

 

 

Cont....

[oldshirt]

So the bottom line to all of this is simply this - a smart person who wants to have a home and family with someone and is willing to make a commitment to maintain that home and family, will want the other person to show the same level of commitment and determination. If they are smart and serious, both parties will want the legal protections and legal support of the commitment...ie "marriage."

 

 

If someone rejects or disparages the concept of legal marriage - one will have to assume that that person is NOT serious about having a home and family with them and not willing to make a commitment serious enough to make it official legally.

 

 

One must also assume that that person does not in fact commit to remaining with them during times of boredom, times of conflict, or times of hardship and a further assumption should be made that they make no commitment to remain with them should someone cuter, richer, funner etc come along.

 

 

To put it into grandma words - people who are serious, think marriage.

 

 

People who just want to have fun and play but want an easy exit once it's not fun or easy - avoid marriage.

[Mr. Lucky]

Because it has no bearing on how a person may feel about you. However, it has a significant bearing on who gets a chunk of my assets if/when the marriage ends.

 

I think we're all on the same page. If that's how you see it, marriage is not for you. And like the OP's boyfriend, that makes you an unsuitable partner for someone who's marriage minded...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sambolini]

But the flip side here is that a person who says they don't want to marry and that marriage is not important to them is basically saying, "I may want to hang out and have fun with you now, but I want to be able to walk away scot free the moment I'm not having fun or if I happen to run into someone I think I might like better."

 

You are making an incorrect assumption that just because I don't want to marry that means I don't want to commit. When in reality, my only goal is to ensure that if the relationship ends I leave it with the same assets I had when I entered it, plus any new I assets I acquired on my own.

 

With that being said, I've been in an abusive marriage before. Emotional abuse, mental abuse, and infidelity. I could just as easily say that people who are adamant about getting married are basically saying "I want to be able to do whatever I want to this person and still take advantage of no fault divorce."

 

Because of the past abuse I suffered, and the amount of money I had to pay to gain my freedom, marriage is a waste of time for me.

 

And many men prefer to avoid that situation all together. Shaming tactics won't work Rio persuade us to change our minds.

[sambolini]

I think we're all on the same page. If that's how you see it, marriage is not for you. And like the OP's boyfriend, that makes you an unsuitable partner for someone who's marriage minded...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Agreed.

 

However, if everything else about the relationship is great except for the lack of marriage, I still stand by my opinion that it's silly to end an otherwise great relationship because the guy doesn't want to bet half his stuff that they'll be together forever.

[sambolini]

It says a lot about how you feel about your partner. You are saying here that you want to be able to exit at any time with no risk or cost.

 

Bingo. Why should I have to pay my partner to leave her? What entitles her to money that I earned, and assets I acquired all on my own? Why should risk be involved in the first place? This isn't an early termination fee situation, nor should it be treated as such.

 

Marriage breeds complacency. I take no responsibility for another human adult, including females. I completely agree with feminism; you can make your own money and take care of yourselves perfectly fine. You don't need a man to do it for you.

 

Which means you don't need my money when the relationship ends. You don't need my assets

 

Marriage is nothing more than legal extortion.

[basil67]

I laugh every time I see this ludicrous, nonsensical and very hypocritical statement being made.

 

If it 'means nothing,' and it's 'only a piece of paper,' why should it be such a problem doing it, then? You know, since it's only a piece of paper and all.

 

Pffft.

 

Marriage means nothing to me. (I've been defacto with my partner for 22 years).

 

Now, if marriage was REALLY important to my partner, I could just sign that piece of paper. But what's the point of going through a wedding ceremony when it means nothing to one of the people?

 

I would imagine that a person who wants marriage would want a partner who also believes that marriage is important.

[basil67]

And anyone who says "I want to get married because legal rights" should be avoided at all costs. That person will end up costing you money.

 

Funnily enough, legal rights are the one thing which could change my mind about marriage.

 

Defacto laws here mean that legally we are treated as a married couple. But if I was to move somewhere where being defacto means I have no legal say in a hospital situation or if it was detrimental to our tax I'd get married.

[sambolini]

Funnily enough, legal rights are the one thing which could change my mind about marriage.

 

Defacto laws here mean that legally we are treated as a married couple. But if I was to move somewhere where being defacto means I have no legal say in a hospital situation or if it was detrimental to our tax I'd get married.

 

A guardianship and living will can accomplish pretty much the same thing.

 

I'd personally rather pay a higher tax rate and stay unmarried. Common laws are ridiculous (IMO). Besides, my tax dollars go towards things that I use and get benefits from on a daily basis. I like roads, clean water, etc. In the end, the higher tax rate it worth paying in exchange for full control of my assets and destiny.

 

You're entirely welcome to disagree. It sounds as though you're happy in your relationship, and in the end that's all that really matters.

[sandylee1]

I realise that those who have lost $$$$$ through divorce can be anti marriage, I would probably want a prenup if it happened to me...... but if I'm having kids with a man and making career sacrifices.. which having kids does...... then I absolutely expect the security of marriage. I don't cook, clean and do laundry for any man.......unless I'm married to him.

 

At the end of the day... if BOTH are happy with the arrangement.... it's not a problem. Just don't waste your time with a man who is against marriage...if you want to get married. Leave him to date a girl whose happy with that arrangement.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

but if I'm having kids with a man and making career sacrifices.. which having kids does...... then I absolutely expect the security of marriage.

 

What security does marriage bring? Knowing you can take half his stuff if either one of you mess up?

 

Also, you wouldn't cook a dinner for a boyfriend? Cause I don't believe that.

Edited December 3, 2015 by T-16bullseyeWompRat

[Mr. Lucky]

When in reality, my only goal is to ensure that if the relationship ends I leave it with the same assets I had when I entered it, plus any new I assets I acquired on my own.

 

How do you acquire new assets on your own when married ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[sambolini]

How do you acquire new assets on your own when married ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Precisely.

 

In theory, any money I earn through the fruits of my own labors are mine and mine alone, even in marriage. Thus, any assets I acquire using my money should also be mine alone.

 

I know the law doesn't work that way. Therefore, I eschew marriage.

[sandylee1]

What security does marriage bring? Knowing you can take half his stuff if either one of you mess up?

 

Also, you wouldn't cook a dinner for a boyfriend? Cause I don't believe that.

 

I've cooked for boyfriends in the past on occasion .... I always liked to show my skills off ☺, but I never lived with any of them....and I wouldn't cook for a BF everyday...like pretty much do for my husband.....it's my wifely duty...not girlfriend duty.

 

I go out of my way to do stuff for my husband's family too ..... I won't do that for just a boyfriend. Marriage = serious in my view.

 

My view is that I deserve a permanent commitment to be doing that. I personally take marriage very seriously.....so my intention is that marriage is for life. We both come from families whose parents have been married for over 50 years.

 

Unless he started abusing me, behaving terribly or was unfaithful..... I believe we can work through anything else.

 

Taking half his stuff wasn't and isn't on my mind.... however, I feel that I am entiltled to financial security should we get divorced. ... then the fact that I'm the one who had the kids (as a woman does ) and had to have times off work and spend time at home, with my career taking a back seat...... leaving me earning less when I worked part time... ... then I feel it's only right I don't leave the marriage impoverished. That's why that marital or divorce law came to be... women were being left like paupers after years off marriage and child rearing , with no skills and no money when the marriage ended.

 

If you don't have kids and get divorced..... I think the law should be different..... as there's no reason for a spouse with no kids not to work. However... if like many husbands do.. they want their wives to stay at home...... to cater for their every need..... even when they have no kids.... then he should cough up in a divorce... because she is deskilled by his desire.

 

Perhaps me being Catholic makes a difference. I would never have kids outside marriage and

in my culture it would be an insult for a man to want to shack up with a woman without marriage on a permanent basis. It's viewed as him not respecting her enough to marry her..... my upbringing plays a large part here.

[candie13]

Precisely.

 

In theory, any money I earn through the fruits of my own labors are mine and mine alone, even in marriage. Thus, any assets I acquire using my money should also be mine alone.

 

I know the law doesn't work that way. Therefore, I eschew marriage.

 

So if the partner makes just as much money or more, you'd be fine with marriage? Money is nothing but an excuse - a poor one - to justify a person's commitment issues. A previous failed and abusive marriage would do that to s person, so it's understandable. But it is not the new partner's fault for it. The new partner deserves, in turn, someone who dealt with their past and faced their fears and healed. If that's not the case, then they are emotionally damaged, and yeah, unsuitable for a proper relationship.

 

OP, i've been in your shoes. What bugs me is not his view on marriage - which is unclear at the moment. What really bugs me is that he wasn't clear about it since the beginning. I invest emotionally in a RS, in 9 months. And if a man waits for me to get emotionally invested and then serves me with the truth, than we're Talking Manipulation .

 

I have a horribly large ego, the only thing I can tell you is that the truth- saying the truth, sharing deep personal thoughts that affect the relationship- is crucial for building an authentic relationship. I hate wishy washy people who serve the "I don't know if I believe in marriage" excuse. They do know. They're simply buying time to force to get used to their idea, hoping you'd give in and prefer him and no marriage. You're in your late 20.As a single woman in my mid thirties, i can tell you it's a harsh world, out there. Don't waste too much of your time, and be conscious that healing from this relationship will take a LOT of more time- especially if you were inlove.

 

keep your eyes and ears open and do the math by yourself, because your bf won't spell it out for you. The more vague He is, the worse it looks. Think about it...

[lana-banana]

When we first began dating, my boyfriend said he found the idea of marriage "terrifying", which I took as a red (maybe yellow?) flag. But after about six months he started talking about the future, saying he saw a long-term future with me, mentioning marriage and kids, etc. It seemed like a good sign but I didn't want to read too much into it.

 

Finally at nine months or so I just said it: "I love you. I love what we have. I don't know what the future holds for us, and I'm fine with that. But I don't want to be yours---or anyone's---forever girlfriend."

 

He replied: "In the past I was really against marriage, especially after my engagement. But when I'm with you I don't feel that way. I've been thinking about our future together, and if things keep going well I know that will include marriage at some point."

 

Here we are now, past the sixteen-month mark: we are looking at an engagement sometime (probably summer or fall) 2016; he has taken to singing "I like it so I'm gonna put a ring on it" in the shower; and I am starting to shop with friends just to find ring styles that I like. But beyond that we're still just going day by day.

 

TALK TO HIM. Whatever you're afraid of, it's better than not knowing. You can't afford to be on different pages on such a fundamental issue.

[oldshirt]

You are making an incorrect assumption that just because I don't want to marry that means I don't want to commit. When in reality, my only goal is to ensure that if the relationship ends I leave it with the same assets I had when I entered it, plus any new I assets I acquired on my own.

 

With that being said, I've been in an abusive marriage before. Emotional abuse, mental abuse, and infidelity. I could just as easily say that people who are adamant about getting married are basically saying "I want to be able to do whatever I want to this person and still take advantage of no fault divorce."

 

Because of the past abuse I suffered, and the amount of money I had to pay to gain my freedom, marriage is a waste of time for me.

 

And many men prefer to avoid that situation all together. Shaming tactics won't work Rio persuade us to change our minds.

 

 

 

It may be an inaccurate assumption, but it the prudent assumption.

 

 

If I am in a bank and a man walks in wearing a ski mask and carrying a gun and a big bag, it may be an inaccurate to jump to the assumption he is a bank robber but it is the wise and prudent assumption to assume that he is and to act accordingly.

[oldshirt]

Bingo. Why should I have to pay my partner to leave her? What entitles her to money that I earned, and assets I acquired all on my own? Why should risk be involved in the first place? This isn't an early termination fee situation, nor should it be treated as such.

 

Marriage breeds complacency. I take no responsibility for another human adult, including females. I completely agree with feminism; you can make your own money and take care of yourselves perfectly fine. You don't need a man to do it for you.

 

Which means you don't need my money when the relationship ends. You don't need my assets

 

Marriage is nothing more than legal extortion.

 

 

You may not be intending to but you are basically proving my point(s) for me.

 

 

In general what it all boils down to is people who do want to marry and don't believe in marriage etc etc want the easy-exit option.

 

 

They don't want to be all-in and want to be able to walk out the backdoor with the least amount of trouble. They may want to play marbles but they don't want to bring their own marbles with them and put them in the circle. They want to eat at the pot luck but don't want to add their own food to the table.

 

 

If someone wants the easy-exit and doesn't want to invest their assets into the union, then they aren't all-in and will always have their eye on the exit sign and at least one foot pointed towards the door, even if they say are committed.

 

 

Saying you are committed is just words, that can be taken back at any moment. Being married is actually being committed. You have committed your assets and you chosen to take the costly exit.

 

 

People who want to be married and want that level of commitment, want to enter into that contract with someone who feels the same and who also wants that level of commitment.

 

 

People who want marriage, need to walk away from those who don't and vice versa.

 

 

Neither should waste a breath trying to convince, manipulate or use duress against the other to get them to change their values and goals.

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

In general what it all boils down to is people who do want to marry and don't believe in marriage etc etc want the easy-exit option.

 

 

They don't want to be all-in and want to be able to walk out the backdoor with the least amount of trouble. They may want to play marbles but they don't want to bring their own marbles with them and put them in the circle. They want to eat at the pot luck but don't want to add their own food to the table.

 

 

If someone wants the easy-exit and doesn't want to invest their assets into the union, then they aren't all-in and will always have their eye on the exit sign and at least one foot pointed towards the door, even if they say are committed.

 

 

Saying you are committed is just words, that can be taken back at any moment. Being married is actually being committed. You have committed your assets and you chosen to take the costly exit.

 

Oh oldshirt, and you were doing so good in this thread till you posted this BS. You actually believe someone can't fully 100% commit to someone else without marriage? You are saying nobody in a monogamous relationship provides for and puts everything on the line for their SO unless they are married? People who don't ever want to get married are always looking at the exit of a relationship, therefore aren't really in a commited relationship at all? It takes a legal contract to commit to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in your life? Or just to another person? I'm sorry bro but you are out of line with some of those thoughts.

 

Btw, saying your vows are just words... They can be taken back any minute.

 

People who want to be married and want that level of commitment, want to enter into that contract with someone who feels the same and who also wants that level of commitment.

 

So its all about the money or what? No easy exit you say. So you are saying marriages are based on financial security and nothing more? Or do you honestly believe nobody can commit to someone else without marriage? Plenty of married people who aren't commited to each other. And plenty of life partners who are in 100% commited relationship.

[candie13]

O

 

Btw, saying your vows are just words... They can be taken back any minute.

 

So its all about the money or what? No easy exit you say. So you are saying marriages are based on financial security and nothing more? Or do you honestly believe nobody can commit to someone else without marriage? Plenty of married people who aren't commited to each other. And plenty of life partners who are in 100% commited relationship.

of course that is correct and true. This is not a debate about commitment with or without marriage.

 

This is about a clear situation where a dude says one story to his gf for 9 months & suddenly changes it when the moment of truth comes closer. There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage or hating marriage. This has to do with coming clear and true about your intentions and values, in front of your partner, from the beginning until the end of the relationship.

 

Truth is people change their minds all the time, in one direction or the other. This is why it's so important for each one of us to make a clear assessment of that partner when deciding if he is reliable and trustworthy or not.

[sambolini]

So if the partner makes just as much money or more, you'd be fine with marriage? Money is nothing but an excuse - a poor one - to justify a person's commitment issues. A previous failed and abusive marriage would do that to s person, so it's understandable. But it is not the new partner's fault for it. The new partner deserves, in turn, someone who dealt with their past and faced their fears and healed. If that's not the case, then they are emotionally damaged, and yeah, unsuitable for a proper relationship.

 

OP, i've been in your shoes. What bugs me is not his view on marriage - which is unclear at the moment. What really bugs me is that he wasn't clear about it since the beginning. I invest emotionally in a RS, in 9 months. And if a man waits for me to get emotionally invested and then serves me with the truth, than we're Talking Manipulation .

 

I have a horribly large ego, the only thing I can tell you is that the truth- saying the truth, sharing deep personal thoughts that affect the relationship- is crucial for building an authentic relationship. I hate wishy washy people who serve the "I don't know if I believe in marriage" excuse. They do know. They're simply buying time to force to get used to their idea, hoping you'd give in and prefer him and no marriage. You're in your late 20.As a single woman in my mid thirties, i can tell you it's a harsh world, out there. Don't waste too much of your time, and be conscious that healing from this relationship will take a LOT of more time- especially if you were inlove.

 

keep your eyes and ears open and do the math by yourself, because your bf won't spell it out for you. The more vague He is, the worse it looks. Think about it...

 

It doesn't matter how much she makes. I will never be ok with marriage. I'm looking for a partner, not a financial dependent.

 

You can think whatever you want about my emotional state of mind regarding marriage. I have no obligation to justify my reasons with anyone. The bottom line is marriage is a choice, not a requirement. If I choose to not marry, then that's my choice. What anyone else thinks about it is irrelevant.

[candie13]

It doesn't matter how much she makes. I will never be ok with marriage. I'm looking for a partner, not a financial dependent.

 

You can think whatever you want about my emotional state of mind regarding marriage. I have no obligation to justify my reasons with anyone. The bottom line is marriage is a choice, not a requirement. If I choose to not marry, then that's my choice. What anyone else thinks about it is irrelevant.

absolutely your own private business and no One Else's, except for your partner. I believe 200% transparency about views on mattiage & children is mandatory, in front of their partner, since the early beginning, should they want to build an authentic relationship. Otherwise it's only a big waste of time And women are biologically conditioned, unfortunately. Wasting a Woman's time, especially in her late 20, early 30, is just cruel.

[sandylee1]

absolutely your own private business and no One Else's, except for your partner. I believe 200% transparency about views on mattiage & children is mandatory, in front of their partner, since the early beginning, should they want to build an authentic relationship. Otherwise it's only a big waste of time And women are biologically conditioned, unfortunately. Wasting a Woman's time, especially in her late 20, early 30, is just cruel.

 

I agree Candie.. it's a personal choice ....but each party should be upfront if they don't want marriage. I don't think one party should try to persuade the other into getting married or just cohabiting. If a girl or guy isn't on the same page as you... just end it.

 

What I don't like is people saying it's just a piece of paper. It's a very important piece of paper..just like your birth certificate.

 

If any man or woman feels their SO is only with them for the money... you should drop them marriage or not.

[oldshirt]

Oh oldshirt, and you were doing so good in this thread till you posted this BS. You actually believe someone can't fully 100% commit to someone else without marriage? You are saying nobody in a monogamous relationship provides for and puts everything on the line for their SO unless they are married? People who don't ever want to get married are always looking at the exit of a relationship, therefore aren't really in a commited relationship at all? It takes a legal contract to commit to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in your life? Or just to another person? I'm sorry bro but you are out of line with some of those thoughts.

 

Btw, saying your vows are just words... They can be taken back any minute.

 

 

 

So its all about the money or what? No easy exit you say. So you are saying marriages are based on financial security and nothing more? Or do you honestly believe nobody can commit to someone else without marriage? Plenty of married people who aren't commited to each other. And plenty of life partners who are in 100% commited relationship.

 

Call it what you want but marriage has always been a legal and financial construct. It was never meant to be about love or feelings etc etc

 

Love and feelings wax and wane over time. Marriage is a legal and financial contract. Sorry but it just is.

 

It's a legal and financial contract to protect people's asset and property rights and to protect the security and financial support of children.

 

I'm not saying that people aren't sincere when they say that they love someone and will be committed to them. I'm saying that feelings and goals and intentions exchange over time and that words are just words.

 

For some people (men and women) if they want to have a home and family, they want more collateral than someone's words based on their current feelings on whether hey will stand by them. They want the legal and financial contract supporting the union.

 

Those people need to find someone else that also wants that level of commitment and they have the right to walk away from that do not want the same.

 

Some people (men and women) don't want to be held to that level of obligation and commitment. That is also their right and they also have the right to walk away from someone who wanting more than they are willing to offer.

 

What people don't have the right is to BS, misrepresent their intentions, or manipulate the other into compromising their objectives to conform to theirs.