Hoping to stop the downhill plunge.... Update.

[truncated]

I'm wondering about this for days now and I just have to say it. How does a woman who is so sexually free and active for years, more than normal people I mean (swinging and having lots of sex) become a woman who just goes the 180 and totally changes? Isn't it weird? I just look at it from the anthropological and societal view (maybe wrong spelling, sorry) and I'm curious. If this was a woman who her whole life had a medium or even low sex drive, I'd say, yes it seems logical that sex doesn't interest her that much anymore, not much change anyway. But going from "professional" to not at all, I find it weird and interesting. Of course I don't know the dynamic of your relationship over the years and I don't expect you to analyze it here for us. But I would suggest you listen to your wife. She complains that it's always about sex for you. She used to be like this as well, given the past she has in sexual experiences with you. What triggered the 180 change? Did she get sick of it? Did she realize your relationship is too much superficial and she misses some intellectual connection as well?

 

Oldshirt I don't want you to get offended please, but I get the feeling from you that you have already decided what you want to do, you feel strong about your decisions, about who you are, you are sure that you are right in every choice you make because you know your wife and your relationship and you don't consider our maybe different opinions. What are you searching for exactly here? Do you or don't you want some advise? And again, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just trying to understand how we can help you in the best way possible.

 

 

I can't speak for the op's wife, but maybe she feels a bit like I did.

 

It could be a combination of factors He age, hormones, other issues that occupy her mind, etc.

 

I have the type of mind that has the attention span of a gnat. It's really hard to concentrate on any one thing, especially when I have a lot on my mind. It was easier when I was younger, as i| didn't have so much to think about , responsibilities, etc.

As I got older and our kids came along, that changed, it it can be hard to shut my mind off and just be "in the moment'. That is no reflection on my husband at all, it's me.

 

Add to that the hormone issues you face when you're in your forties, and it's no wonder that there are times I'm just not that into it because I can't just shut my mind off. It helped when I explained the situation to my husband, and he asked that if I am having a day when if we have sex it will be a "quickie" , to let him know. We have a pet name for that, and it isn't the majority of times.

Edited October 15, 2015 by truncated

[ShatteredLady]

Just out of interest... When you guys were swinging & wild were drugs &/or alcohol usually involved?

 

In my experience passionate, full-on sex is a habit, as is abstinence & mechanical. Know what I mean? If we haven't for a while for whatever reason I reach the point that it stops crossing my mind...the female mind is an essential component of sex.

 

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it but have you tried making it very clear that you will NOT be having sex...then bathing together, massaging intimately with nice oils, stroking, kissing etc ONLY? My therory being knowing there won't be sex she can completely relax & get into the attention...which naturally leads to being turned-on. Maybe getting HER sexually frustrated will make her passion surface??? That would work for me! I love to truly relax into a massage but I can't let a proffesional massage my thighs etc. it's just too much of a turn on. :love:

 

I still think from all of your descriptions that your W is very, very sensitive to hormonal changes. Some women are. Did she suffer a lot with 'time of the month' emotional & physical issues when younger?

[turnera]

Excellent point, ShatteredLady. Let her know you're taking it off the table but want to get to know how to be affectionate with her WITHOUT the PIV. Let her be part of the solution. After all, who knows better how she would like affection than her?

 

For instance, I LOVE footrubs, they're better than sex for me, and I'd be happy to give them to my H, too, but any time I touch him, he expects or at least wants sex. If I knew he was taking sex off the table for a few weeks, I would be MUCH more affectionate with him and he'd get a lot more affection/contact from ME. Because I would feel safe and would know I wouldn't have to be 'the bad guy' by turning him down.

Edited October 15, 2015 by turnera

[oldshirt]

responses in bold below.

 

 

 

 

Just out of interest... When you guys were swinging & wild were drugs &/or alcohol usually involved?

 

 

 

 

No. never any drugs. I never even saw any drugs or drug usage in my swinging days although I would have to assume that there were some out there just like they are out there in every day life. I do not drink at all so no alcohol for me. My wife may have a drink or two but was never drunk during play time. I hate being around sloppy drunks so we never had any drunks for playmates but there were drinks at clubs and parties and such just like any other festive gathering of adults. Occasionally at clubs you'd see someone that over indulged but generally speaking, you would see a lot more drunkenness and alcohol related incidents at a regular vanilla bar or club than you ever would at a swinger venue.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it but have you tried making it very clear that you will NOT be having sex...then bathing together, massaging intimately with nice oils, stroking, kissing etc ONLY? My therory being knowing there won't be sex she can completely relax & get into the attention...which naturally leads to being turned-on. Maybe getting HER sexually frustrated will make her passion surface???

 

 

 

 

I've backed way off on the sexual side of things and have not initiated any sexual contact for over a couple weeks now. I have 'told' her that we will not be having sex, but I haven't made any kind of sexual overatures for awhile. I don't think she will be getting sexually frustrated per se though since the mojo just doesn't seem to be there any more. I am hoping that she will relax and not think that I am just out to score any time I touch her or give her a hug or anything though.

 

 

 

 

I still think from all of your descriptions that your W is very, very sensitive to hormonal changes. Some women are. Did she suffer a lot with 'time of the month' emotional & physical issues when younger?

 

 

Yes. She's always been sensitive to hormonal changes.

 

 

[oldshirt]

Excellent point, ShatteredLady. Let her know you're taking it off the table but want to get to know how to be affectionate with her WITHOUT the PIV. Let her be part of the solution. After all, who knows better how she would like affection than her?

 

For instance, I LOVE footrubs, they're better than sex for me, and I'd be happy to give them to my H, too, but any time I touch him, he expects or at least wants sex. If I knew he was taking sex off the table for a few weeks, I would be MUCH more affectionate with him and he'd get a lot more affection/contact from ME. Because I would feel safe and would know I wouldn't have to be 'the bad guy' by turning him down.

 

As I stated to Shattered Lady, I am pretty much doing that but I haven't told her about it. I am just doing it. Actions speak louder than words.

[OldRover]

Your plan seems fair except for one thing. I assume you've done enough reading to understand that women have to be emotionally involved, typically, to WANT to have sex, to lust after you. In other words, they need their 'emotional world' in their head when they think of their relationship with you to be...well, great. Not a ton of resentments, emotional needs met. Not be perfect, but just knowing that you acknowledge the issues and ARE working on them. So she's telling you WHY she resents you (your Love Busters) and WHAT Emotional Needs she has that you aren't meeting.

 

NO woman is going to suddenly just wake up one morning and say 'you know what? who cares if he's hurting me and ignoring my issues with him? I want to jump his bones anyway!' Unless you are willing to honestly address for the above problem and change YOUR hand in it, you never will see any improvement; might as well just divorce now.

 

And if I had a dollar for every wife who's said 'you just want me for sex,' I'd be a millionaire. Have you honestly evaluated how you treat her in regards to sexual issues? Do you/did you grab at her? Push yourself on her? Push for sex and then just forget about something you promised to do afterward that mattered to her? Do you always make sure she gets off first? Do you help with chores so that she doesn't still have a ton of things to do at night and can relax? Do you listen to her talk about stuff or ask her about her feelings, wants, needs, aspirations, her day? Do you engage with her friends and her family? Do you ask her advice on things? Do you FOLLOW her advice on things? If having/getting sex comes up all the time and all the other stuff is just given lip service, women figure out pretty quick that they really ARE just wanted for the sex.

 

I'm not saying you're doing these things, I'm just asking you to be honest with yourself. If you WANT her to WANT you, pay attention to what makes HER happy.

 

And this is the EXACT response women have when their man is continuously pushing for sex. I sit on the opposite side of the couch because any time we're in touching distance, and we do touch, even if it's just legs, I KNOW he's going to push for sex that night. And I don't let him hug me because I know he'll try to cop a feel, squeeze something. Even after I've told him a hundred times it makes me feel like a hooker or something. So I protect myself from him. Sad, huh? All because he won't listen and respect my feelings. Same thing your wife is doing.

 

I don't know how you could last with any man, with that kind of attitude. Have you ever though of embracing the love making and giving it 100%? I'd bet you'd have a MUCH better relationship.

[Mr. Lucky]

For instance, I LOVE footrubs, they're better than sex for me, and I'd be happy to give them to my H, too, but any time I touch him, he expects or at least wants sex. If I knew he was taking sex off the table for a few weeks, I would be MUCH more affectionate with him and he'd get a lot more affection/contact from ME. Because I would feel safe and would know I wouldn't have to be 'the bad guy' by turning him down.

 

I see what you're doing but don't understand why. Are his sexual requests that unreasonable? And why would they make you feel unsafe?

 

Mr. Lucky

[turnera]

I don't know how you could last with any man, with that kind of attitude. Have you ever though of embracing the love making and giving it 100%? I'd bet you'd have a MUCH better relationship.

If you do any research, you'll learn that women typically have to have an emotional connection to their man to want to have sex, at least to the extent that the men do. So if a woman's withdrawing from her husband for him refusing to meet her needs, she stops desiring to have sex with him. It's not a unique issue with me; just look it up. And I never said no to my husband for more than 25 years, until I just couldn't take it any more, being expected to give him sex 3 or 4 times a week while our house fell apart around us because he absolutely refused to take care of anything and put us nearly $100,000 in debt. Not one single time did I refuse him, except once when I had pneumonia (yet he didn't care and still wanted the sex).

 

You could just as easily have said if HE would embraced meeting my needs for a change, we would have had a MUCH better relationship. When women's needs are addressed, they are MUCH more likely to want sex and have real desire.

[turnera]

I see what you're doing but don't understand why. Are his sexual requests that unreasonable? And why would they make you feel unsafe?

 

Mr. Lucky

Mr. Lucky, I have sexual aversion due to family history. It literally makes me want to gag to have intercourse. But I do it anyway, to keep him happy.

 

Once I finally got into therapy, after a couple suicide attempts for feeling hopeless, my therapist told me that I had to set some limits. After 30 years of marriage, I was still having sex with him at least 3 times a week, even though it made me physically and mentally ill. She got me to finally be honest with him, that it made me unhappy, even ill, and to tell him that I needed to ask him - since he professed to love me - to cut it back to once a week. So that I could have more than one or two days between sex to mentally feel safe (i.e. not feel like I was being raped over and over). For the most part, he's pulled back a lot, after me having to have the same talk 3 or 4 times before he realized I really meant it.

 

Now that it's a more reasonable period for me - 5 or 6 times a month instead of 15 to 20 times a month, I can breathe. I can walk around without being so much in panic mode every single day.

 

But it doesn't stop him expecting to jump my bones every single time I touch him in any shape or form. I remember the first thing I asked of him 35+ years ago was to be able to just cuddle without it automatically leading to sex. Of course, back then he said 'of course!' And then proceeded to jump my bones every single time we touched. I soon learned to just give up and give him what he wanted so I didn't get punished.

 

I hope that helps you to understand a little more.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I don't know how you could last with any man, with that kind of attitude. Have you ever though of embracing the love making and giving it 100%? I'd bet you'd have a MUCH better relationship.

Yeh but if the man is making her feel like a "cum dumpster" then it's NOT 'love making" and if it makes you feel like garbage, how can you give 100%?

 

OP I think if you really were interested in fixing your marriage you would try to take the GOOD advice of TELLING your wife that sex is off the table but that you are going to be very physically affectionate to her. Then you have to actually NOT get sexual with her. I have this idea that your wife has felt like a sex object at times in your marriage and maybe now she's feeling OVER IT. If you want your marriage I think you have to re-invent the sex and romance in a new way. Of course if she isn't into it and won't join in the effort at all then maybe your marriage needs to end. But you are the one with the thread asking for advice so I think it will be up to you to lead and stay the course for a while ... good luck!!! :bunny:

[OldRover]

If you do any research, you'll learn that women typically have to have an emotional connection to their man to want to have sex, at least to the extent that the men do. So if a woman's withdrawing from her husband for him refusing to meet her needs, she stops desiring to have sex with him. It's not a unique issue with me; just look it up. And I never said no to my husband for more than 25 years, until I just couldn't take it any more, being expected to give him sex 3 or 4 times a week while our house fell apart around us because he absolutely refused to take care of anything and put us nearly $100,000 in debt. Not one single time did I refuse him, except once when I had pneumonia (yet he didn't care and still wanted the sex).

 

You could just as easily have said if HE would embraced meeting my needs for a change, we would have had a MUCH better relationship. When women's needs are addressed, they are MUCH more likely to want sex and have real desire.

 

Turnear,

 

Yes, I'm very familiar with women's needs. Yes, they are different, but the desire for sex isn't one sided. It's just as strong for the woman, but people will vary..... both men and women.

 

Sorry you have had such a horrible time. I hope that professional help will make you better (both of you) so you can enjoy a normal life, including sex and loving. Three times a week is not excessive, and hope you can find a way to enjoy that. And, yes, your husband needs help, too. Good luck.

 

As for Old Shirt, his goals are good, just need to get the execution nailed down, and get his wife on board, and it could be good.

[Els]

Turnear,

 

Yes, I'm very familiar with women's needs. Yes, they are different, but the desire for sex isn't one sided. It's just as strong for the woman, but people will vary..... both men and women.

 

In the case that turnera described, I think it's fairly obvious that what her (ex?) husband did pretty much killed her sex drive. Lots of people of either gender would find their libido tanking if they had a spouse who put them $100k in debt, refused to do anything about it, and asked for sex when they had pneumonia.

 

That aside, even in less extreme circumstances, it can really be a vicious cycle for some couples. I would hope that most healthy couples are able to be affectionate and intimate without needing to follow up with sex literally 100% of the time. When sex feels like an 'expectation', it can affect people's libido - again, of either gender. I think having some affectionate time that doesn't necessarily include sex, not having rigid expectations, and especially not PUSHING for it, tends to benefit a couple's intimacy in general.

 

As the person with the higher libido, realizing this helped me greatly during one of our more difficult periods. Things improved a lot once I changed in that regard, and I'm completely satisfied with our sexual relationship now.

 

Oldshirt, how are the goals going? There are 11 pages (that I admittedly didn't read all of) but nothing seems to have progressed beyond the opening post? Could you update on whether you have actually followed your goals as planned?

Edited October 19, 2015 by Elswyth

[autumnnight]

Sometimes it is almost impossible for a sex starved spouse to "take sex off the table." Think about it....someone has been starving in the desert for 3 weeks, and you set out a whole table of food but tell them, "For the next week, you may only have one grape a day, and you shouldn't want anything else off the table."

[Els]

Sometimes it is almost impossible for a sex starved spouse to "take sex off the table." Think about it....someone has been starving in the desert for 3 weeks, and you set out a whole table of food but tell them, "For the next week, you may only have one grape a day, and you shouldn't want anything else off the table."

 

 

It's difficult on both ends. A person can't just 'make' themselves feel horny, either. Sure they can have sex anyway, but I really doubt sex with a person who isn't enjoying themselves at all and is just lying there to appease you is the goal here.

 

Someone (preferably both, but at least one person) has to break the vicious cycle, and kudos to oldshirt if he is willing to be the one to do it. He needs to follow through on his goals if he wants to have a chance of succeeding though.

[oldshirt]

Hi all. Just wanted to update a few developments that have occurred over the past week or so. Then I'll address a couple of the latest posts.

 

 

 

 

A few things that occurred the last several days -

 

 

- Approx last Wed, she txt me with some normal stuff (upcoming kid activities, grocery list etc) and she said she was working on a "surprise" for me. I hadn't really flirted at all for quite awhile so I txt back and asked her if it was going to be a picture of her laying on a bed of rose petals in slinky lingerie.

 

 

She said no, but said to make sure no one else could see my phone (I was at work) and she sent me a picture of one of our old sex pictures from back when we were dating 20 years ago. It was a picture of her giving me a BJ. I about fell out of my chair LOL

 

 

A while later in the day I called her about some other matters and then thanks her for the pic and that it was a real pick-me-up for the day.

 

 

She lamented that she wished she still had that body she had in her 20s and then she went on to say that she wished she had her old sexdrive as well.

 

 

I had to really work on playing it cool and let her drive the conversation, but I said we needed to work as a team together to make both of us happy and comfortable and such and I also said that there were a variety of medical options out there that we could look into. I pretty much left it at that and the convo entually turned to other things.

 

 

- Then Thurs I had the day off and she had to work so I asked if there were any errands or anything and she said that she had contacted her Dr and there was a prescription that could be picked up if I was anywhere near the pharmacy. (I didn't think much of it, she had surgery on her arm a few weeks ago and I picked up a number of scripts for her)

 

 

During my running around I swung by the pharmacy to pick up the script and it was an estrogen vaginal cream.

 

 

I felt that both of these things were good signs and I took the fact that she had contacted her Dr and got the script was showing that she was taking some initiative to address an issue (She did it on her own, I did not bring it up or suggest it)

 

 

Then the biggee is after 3 weeks of me not initiating, we did have sex Sat morning.

 

 

I will talk about that in a separate post...

[oldshirt]

So Thurs night for some reason she tossed and turned all night and basically kept both of us up all night and she had to work 12 hrs Fri, so Fri night she said she hoped she could get some good sleep so I went to bed in the guest room and told the kids to sleep in and if anyone woke her up in the morning, they would be skinned alive.

 

 

I told her to txt me when she woke up in the morning and I wouldn't make any noise or bother her or let the kids bother her until I heard from her.

 

 

So after about 12 hours of sleep she txt me that she was awake. I went upstairs and we hung out and made some small talk about the plans for the day etc.

 

 

Then I got up to let the dog out and as I was coming back into the bedroom she told me to shut and lock the door. I asked if she wanted some "private time" and she said yes.

 

 

I shut and locked the door and slid into bed with her and she told me to take my clothes off.

 

 

I took that as a green light and game on.

 

 

We had some nice, gentle foreplay and she went down on me for awhile. Then I fingered her to an orgasm. Then I maneuvered around to go down on her and she said, "no come up here" and made a motion with her hands which I took as me getting on top so I entered her and we had some fairly slow and gentle intercourse for a few minutes.

 

 

She didn't grimace or make any faces or gestures that indicated she was in any pain or discomfort, but it certainly did not appear that I was rocking her world in any way either.

 

 

She said the earlier orgasm took care of her and that she wasn't going to be able to orgasm again (in the past she would freguently has several or even a couple handfuls of orgasms in a session)

 

 

Since she indicated she was done, I climbed off and layed back on the bed and she went down on me again and finished me orally.

 

 

It was nice. None of you would have applauded or anything like that if you had been there, but it was pleasant and no awkwardness or anything. I'll admit it's kind of frustrating and I feel like I have to hold myself back so much, but it wasn't awkward and nothing indicated she was having any actual pain or anything.

 

 

Regardless of it not being any super hot porn star sex, I will still score it as a solid initiation on her part. I didn't bring it up at all or indicate that I was in the mood or anything like that. It was her initiation.

 

 

It had been one week since she initiated the boobjob and 3 weeks since we last had intercourse (which was initiated by me) it's been 3 weeks since I stopped hitting on her or doing any kind of initiating.

 

 

What are your thoughts and impressions so far?????

[GorillaTheater]

What are your thoughts and impressions so far?????

 

I'm seeing a lot of positives here. She's trying. She's addressing things from a physical and medical standpoint.

 

I don't know whether you're happy with the pace, but other than that I think you have a lot to be happy about.

[S2B]

I see it as a positive step in the right direction.

 

She took action to obtain the cream and certainly is making effort to initiate.

 

 

You're doing your part by offering to do things that help her out (support) and not pressuring for sex.

 

Keep up with that plan since it seems to be moving you two in the right direction.

[Mr. Lucky]

It was nice. None of you would have applauded or anything like that if you had been there, but it was pleasant and no awkwardness or anything. I'll admit it's kind of frustrating and I feel like I have to hold myself back so much, but it wasn't awkward and nothing indicated she was having any actual pain or anything.

 

 

Regardless of it not being any super hot porn star sex, I will still score it as a solid initiation on her part. I didn't bring it up at all or indicate that I was in the mood or anything like that. It was her initiation.

 

If there's any offense in my post, please chalk it up to my struggle to articulate my thoughts.

 

In your relationship in general and in sex in particular, you seem like a "scorekeeper", to a certain amount focused on details, outcomes and expectations rather than journeys and intentions. While this trait (I'm somewhat the same way) serves us well in the business world, it can be an initiative killer in marriage, especially if your spouse knows herself she's wanting in some area. It's like we're an Olympic skating judge - "you nailed it in style but missed it in technique so sorry, only 7.5 for you".

 

I've had to learn to ask myself more simple questions - Did I enjoy? Did it feel good? Was it satisfying to see my partner's enjoyment? If the answers are yes, then that's a focus on what was present rather than what was missing. Not sure if you feel any of this applies to you and glad to hear things went well...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Ruby Slippers]

This all sounds like positive progress to me. I think you're totally doing the right thing by letting her initiate right now, not putting any pressure on her.

 

She's lamented her loss of drive, ordered the estrogen cream, and is starting to initiate. She's trying, she's doing the best she can right now.

 

I agree that you'll be better off focusing on all these positives for now, instead of comparing it to your gold standard from the past. Hopefully these little positives will keep adding up and you'll keep making good progress.

[turnera]

Sometimes it is almost impossible for a sex starved spouse to "take sex off the table." Think about it....someone has been starving in the desert for 3 weeks, and you set out a whole table of food but tell them, "For the next week, you may only have one grape a day, and you shouldn't want anything else off the table."

So what do you do? Force yourself on your spouse? That's rape.

[turnera]

oldshirt, this is amazing news. Exactly right. You're making it safe for her, you're showing her you care for her more than just as a sex object, and you're following her lead so as to allow her to feel more confident.

 

The only thing that caught my eye was her comment about her body. You know how men talk about 'size' (or at least they did in junior high)? Well, women often care a LOT about their looks; it's how we 'get the guy,' so to speak. So when we start aging and shifting and drooping...we may worry that we are not worthy enough. Don't forget to bring in conversations about how you're still wowed by her body and you LOVE how it's aging right along with YOUR body's aging and you like being at this stage in your life. That will help her feel more secure and more lustful.

[autumnnight]

So what do you do? Force yourself on your spouse? That's rape.

 

I am actually surprised this is even a question. Did I indicate I believed in rape?

 

What I am saying is that after a certain point, if the sex-refusing spouse is not going to attempt to meet the starving spouse halfway, then expecting the starving spouse to stay and continue to starve is not reasonable. And I wouldn't call a refusing spouse offering their starving spouse crumbs noble. I would call it torture....but that is probably because I've been there.

 

In the case where there is no solution...then IMO the solution is divorce.

[OldRover]

OldShirt,

 

I'm happy for you... that was a GREAT time and a monumental accomplishment. Meaning that there was good intentions and effort from both of you.

 

Now, for an encore.... give her a really nice massage tonight. Use some nice massage oil. If you don't know good massage technique, just make it a good feeling rub, and go learn some massage techniques, they work very well for most people.

 

Best to you, and hope things progress well.

[turnera]

I am actually surprised this is even a question. Did I indicate I believed in rape?

 

What I am saying is that after a certain point, if the sex-refusing spouse is not going to attempt to meet the starving spouse halfway, then expecting the starving spouse to stay and continue to starve is not reasonable. And I wouldn't call a refusing spouse offering their starving spouse crumbs noble. I would call it torture....but that is probably because I've been there.

 

In the case where there is no solution...then IMO the solution is divorce.

The way it was written, it sounded like you were saying the man couldn't just NOT try to have sex with her; it didn't say anything about divorce.

 

And in many cases, the woman just wants to know that the man CAN keep his hands off her for awhile, so she's not just a vessel to him. If that happens, her heart can warm back up for him and then she may be more willing and enthusiastic. But if he can't even go one day without touching? Not likely.