She had an ONS, now she's "SOOOOOO" "remorseful" and wants to save the marriage

[fellini]

OP: A Couple of quick observations, based on my own experience and reading.

 

First of all: Personally most of what you wrote about last night's episode is not, for me personally, remorse. It is what I discussed in an earlier post: it is a massive display of self awareness of having screwed up. IE: Regret, pain, and self reproach BUT NOT because of wrongdoing, but rather, the coming to light what she thought she could keep hidden. ONLY YOU can know the extent to which you feel HER WORDS are clearly a demonstration of her EMPATHY and not just strong sympathy that you were collateral damage to her actions.

 

But regardless, I maintain that this first step is for me the key to reconciliation, not remorse. You might have to wait a long time to see genuine unselfish remorse: In an nutshell: Not "My God, what have I done! I have destroyed my marriage, my husband, hurt my children, lost my mind" but "MY God, what have I done to you, to those around me who trusted me"!

 

Second: You mentioned Narcissism so I'm going to bite. It is possible the family discussion has triggered this response. Not the infidelity per se, but it's coming out into the open.

 

ONE interpretation about this event last night is that it actually is a typical response of a narcissist to a life threatening event: The loss of her primary narcissistic supply (and given the forced confession to families, secondary sources of imporatance who publicly feed her "good wife/good person" status)

 

The narcissist's personality is disorganized and precariously balanced. He regulates his sense of self-worth by consuming Narcissistic Supply from others. Any threat to the uninterrupted flow of said supply compromises his psychological integrity and his ability to function. It is perceived by the narcissist as life threatening.

 

1. Loss Induced Dysphoria

 

This is the narcissist's depressive reaction to the loss of one or more Sources of Narcissistic Supply – or to the disintegration of a Pathological Narcissistic Space (PN Space, his stalking or hunting grounds, the social unit whose members lavish him with attention).

 

2. Deficiency Induced Dysphoria

 

Deep and acute depression which follows the aforementioned losses of Supply Sources or a PN Space. Having mourned these losses, the narcissist now grieves their inevitable outcome – the absence or deficiency of Narcissistic Supply.

 

3. Self-Worth Dysregulation Dysphoria

 

The narcissist reacts with depression to criticism or disagreement, especially from a trusted and long-term Source of Narcissistic Supply. He fears the imminent loss of the source and the damage to his own, fragile, mental balance. The narcissist also resents his vulnerability and his extreme dependence on feedback from others. This type of depressive reaction is, therefore, a mutation of self-directed aggression.

 

4. Self-Punishing Dysphoria

 

Deep inside, the narcissist hates himself and doubts his own worth. He deplores his desperate addiction to Narcissistic Supply. He judges his actions and intentions harshly and sadistically. He may be unaware of these dynamics – but they are at the heart of the narcissistic disorder and the reason the narcissist had to resort to narcissism as a defense mechanism in the first place. This inexhaustible well of ill will, self-chastisement, self-doubt, and self-directed aggression yields numerous self-defeating and self-destructive behaviors – from reckless driving and substance abuse to suicidal ideation and constant depression. It is the narcissist's ability to confabulate that saves him from himself.

 

I have no idea if you wife even displays the remotest tendencies of Narcissism. The point is more about being careful. A person with strong narcissist tendencies has at their disposal a reaction to an imminent loss of PNS and Secondary NS a performance of grand magnitude of "remorseful" moments in which they finally see that their game is up and they are NOT GOING TO WIN. The fear of losing their PNS is so great they will move mountains to maintain them because doing so merely means to say that a Narcissist will do everything necessary to keep the status quo because to abandon their PNS means more work in finding a replacement. Also, many N's refuse to allow their PNS to let them go, that is the job of the N, not the PNS.

So they will reel them back in so that they can have the honor of disposing of them as they wish. But a PNS which involves family and a long history seldom comes to that.

 

Narcissists who enter into LTA's have the added advantage that they have turned their AP's into their temporary new PNS and if they see the marriage is going down the sewer have already created their out.

 

Again, Im not saying she IS doing this. Im saying my experience with living with a woman for 20 years with whom I was not seeing many of her narcissistic tendencies, or rather, didn't do the math, was that she pulled all kinds of typical N responses to discovery. Essentially she was setting herself up with a new PNS.

 

If your wife's convulsive breakdown, also a perfectly understandable reaction to a sudden full self awareness of what she has done, is genuine, then you have many possibilities to rebuild your marriage. The issue still remains if you want to be that man, in that position, with that shadow over your soul the rest of your life. Personally Im not convinced that divorce brings spotless sunshine to anyone.

Edited September 19, 2015 by fellini

[Just a Guy]

Hi Fellini, Thank you for your response to my post and apologies to Grandfunkrailway if it appears that I have hijacked his thread. Actually my intention was to generate some discussion on the why's and wherefores of Reconciliation / Divorce so that GFR could possibly get some clarity on the painful situation facing him. I do sincerely empathize with him as he seems to be a very sensitive person who has been thrust into a situation not of his making and certainly not to his liking. It is probably something for which he was completely unprepared and for which he does not have the necessary tools to handle.

Fellini, I defer to your line of argument to say that you are probably the exception to the rule. Most of the cases recorded on LS indicate that true reconciliation did not occur until the Wayward Spouse had expressed true remorse. In your case the current was flowing the opposite way and that is perfectly acceptable. It takes all kinds to make this World so who is to say who is right and who is wrong. I accept your contention that a ONS can be preplanned and a LTR can gradually envelop you like a fog transitioning you from bright sunlight to the dark damp of a fog which blinds you completely. However, again these situations are not the norms but exceptions to the general trend of things.

Mrs. Adams, I guess we are coming at this subject from different perspectives. Yours is more subjective having been in a situation where infidelity had occured. In my case I have a more detached perspective more in the nature of an observer. You are correct in your assumption that I do not have first hand experience of infidelity. I am neither a victim nor a perpetrator of infidelity. However I have seen at first hand within my own close family the terrible effects of infidelity and so I guess I do have a perspective on it. I want to make it very clear that I am not trying to tell anyone how to handle their personal affairs. How could I when I do not know their personal circumstances and when, as you say, I have 'Not walked in their shoes'. This forum is, I believe a place where one can contribute one's views as do others and those affected or interested, can take from them anything they find useful or helpful. It is not and never has been my intention to force my views on others. All I ask for is an honest appraisal of what I have to say and I am open to being corrected if I have overstepped the line in any way. I hope I have been able to clarify my position in this matter.

GFR, I have read your last post and I must say I feel truly sorry for the situation you have been placed in. I do hope you have considered getting some professional help so that you can deal with the turmoil in your life in a healing manner. Do look after yourself and your children. Unfortunately they ate the ones who suffer collateral damage. Warm Wishes!

[fellini]

Well put, and interesting points Just a guy.

 

In my short 2.5 years or so on LS, I have to agree with part of your comments about remorse. I would say that almost 100% of the time people who have NOT reconciled insist that someone else's WS show remorse (a very difficult task to do) immediately or they should D.

 

I am saying these people did not wait around to see it, yet they somehow fully know that it is the number 1 priority in deciding to reconcile. I find that to be a very limited perspective on infidelity. In my mind remorse will take time to display itself, if ever, and not especially in those early days.

 

I have also read these past years the threads of reconciling BS's who speak of remorse. But I can not recall reading in their own words what that looks like. In terms of your suggestion about the difference between an ONS and a LTA, my case fitting the latter, most of my reading suggests that someone who is capable of that level of continuous daily focussed deliberate deception at home is simply not going to demonstrate remorse within the first months of dday and not without enormous self introspection.

 

In short: someone who is capable of authentic remorse for the wrongdoing they have committed upon another human being has always had the resources to either avoid infidelity or end it when they pass the line so many times. We might consider the infidelities which are ended consciously and with a firm clarity and permanence before Dday ocurrs examples of WS who have the capacity to reflect, and perhaps even have a sense of empathy. But NOT infidelities in which the WS miraculously discovers remorse suprisingly on DDay.

 

So I suggest what I call MASSIVE REGRET or massive damage control or the most excellent display of guilt upon discovery is what sometimes is called remorse. But I offer no proof of this.

 

In sum, I believe a lot more reconciliation has occurred that does not include the LS mantra of:

 

"the woman you married no longer exists" (to me a most absurd proposition)

"there is no reconciliation without true remorse" (already discussed above - and while I don't disagree that remorse is great for reconciliation, Im not one to hold my breath waiting to see it.)

"your WW cheated on you showing she has absolutely no morals whatsoever" (another absurd position)

and the real twister of them all

"if she loved you she wouldn't have cheated on you..."

 

None of these propositions genuinely hold water, and frankly, as far as I can see, make the cognitive dissonance in the mind of a troubled BS more so rather than helping him/her navigate the complexities of discovery of infidelity for the first time.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Fellini, Thank you for your response to my post and apologies to Grandfunkrailway if it appears that I have hijacked his thread. Actually my intention was to generate some discussion on the why's and wherefores of Reconciliation / Divorce so that GFR could possibly get some clarity on the painful situation facing him. I do sincerely empathize with him as he seems to be a very sensitive person who has been thrust into a situation not of his making and certainly not to his liking. It is probably something for which he was completely unprepared and for which he does not have the necessary tools to handle.

Fellini, I defer to your line of argument to say that you are probably the exception to the rule. Most of the cases recorded on LS indicate that true reconciliation did not occur until the Wayward Spouse had expressed true remorse. In your case the current was flowing the opposite way and that is perfectly acceptable.

Edited September 19, 2015 by fellini

[SummerDreams]

In short: someone who is capable of authentic remorse for the wrongdoing they have committed upon another human being has always had the resources to either avoid infidelity or end it when they pass the line so many times. We might consider the infidelities which are ended consciously and with a firm clarity and permanence before Dday ocurrs examples of WS who have the capacity to reflect, and perhaps even have a sense of empathy. But NOT infidelities in which the WS miraculously discovers remorse suprisingly on DDay.

 

So I suggest what I call MASSIVE REGRET or massive damage control or the most excellent display of guilt upon discovery is what sometimes is called remorse. But I offer no proof of this.

 

I miss the point of what you are saying here though. Are you saying that remorse is not nevessary in order to reconcile or that, since the WS had all the chance to not cheat or at least stop the cheating at some point before DDay, they should not deserve reconciliation? Because I believe the latter. If the cheating is a well thought and decided affair then the WS has the chance every minute they choose to cheat to actually put an end to it. Not ending it shows they don't show remorse and they never will FOR THE ACTUAL ACT OF CHEATING. Will they show remorse they get caught down the road? Absolutely, as you suggest yourself. So, we do agree remorse for cheating does not exist. Why exactly would someone forgive a WS without them even showing the most expected thing in the world then --> remorse? I don't get it.

 

"the woman you married no longer exists" (to me a most absurd proposition)

 

and the real twister of them all

"if she loved you she wouldn't have cheated on you..."

 

Ok so I put them together cause I need the second to prove the first. Of course the WS is a changed person! People change every year of their lives, they become more experienced, mature, strong and so many other things without even an infidelity. We all agree here that infidelity has a huge impact in someone's life. Why would infidelity NOT change a person then?

 

I agree that when you love someone you can't even consider hurting them. Since infidelity is the one sure thing that will make them hurt, I do naturally believe that when you cheat on someone you don't love them as much as you would be expected to at least. Cheaters are selfish people who only care for their own well being that's why they cheat. They know that the right thing to do if they feel unhappy in the marriage is to discuss it, seek IC or MC, try to save the marriage and divorce if nothing changes. But what do they choose to do? They choose the easy way, the one that only benefits them, not the BS, not even the AP, only them. They want both their BS and their AP, while the BS and the AP truly have nobody. So yes, I do believe they only love themselves and not their spouse. And naturally I guess this WS is not the same person that the BS chose to marry years ago. So both the first and the second you said are correct in my eyes.

[GrandFunkRailroad]

Fellini

 

The only thing I agree with you is that of being careful, but not as offering or being enough for reconciliation but still not dripping the divorce off the table. Even if I hypothetically would agree with you then I would have to immediately conclude that I have to divorce right away. I am sorry but I will never, I repeat never, live, put myself or reconcile with a sociopath, narcissist or whatever other disordered person it might be that is incapable of showing any kind of remorse and empathy. I gave it only as example and it is not a question of label but the principle. To do an act of evil you don't have to be any of them. You must be selfish enough and the evil will follow. However, you can be also more than this. There are not only narcissists and sociopaths over there; there are people with antisocial personality, with various personality disorders, ADHD, Autism and many more. Open please the DSM IV and you'll find much more. Besides of this, narcissism is not a one life time event, both in acting out and regretting, but an ongoing life time condition. If my wife was a narcissist I had for surely recognized it before. Yet, she was none of this. What I saw there was something different and I will elaborate it later, but not narcissism. It sounds as if I'm defending my wife but it is not. It has another purpose. Anyway, I have more of self-worth and self-esteem then surround myself wirth those heartless people. Lowering myself as to except them in my life because I am lacking this self-esteem and confidence is exactly what it means for me of course being a doormat. Some people can honestly say this is what they are and right now that this is what they can do. This is much more honest than to try to rationalize being a doormat as some hero. I RESPECT A LOT PEOPLE THAT HONESTLY ADMITT it. I have a problem with people who try to repress, suppress or deny things. At least, poeple addmiting it are wise as to the level they can see it. It is VERY HONORABLE and ease their suffering in a situation that is otherwise very painful to that degree.

 

Therefore, I will never accept such self-denial that will portray some technically on paper existing marriage and some forcefully and hypocritically forced boundaries on a narcissist, antisocial person/ psychopath/whatever it may be else as a minimum requirement for being or reconciling with that person. This is true not only for infidelity but for each and every aspect of life. I may forgive them anyway, but never reconcile, because for such a person those artificial boundaries mean nothing and he will always find a way to cross them one he wishes so. Anyway, as to remorse I completely disagree that remorse is impossible. I agree that at the beginning it can't be 100% of true remorse and do not expect it, because a person still has no full insight into what happened, yet between the extremities of 100% of true remorse and a narcissist, antisocial person/ psychopath/whatever it may be else, there is a middle path where people can indeed show a remorse to that or the other extent. How much of remorse it should be? Should it be 30%, 40%, 50%, I really don't know. Yet, I do know that if I do not want to be a hypocrite who only have a marriage on paper but truly reconcile, there is no way around remorse and it is possible. It is possible by the way and not only with infidelity. I have never cheated on my wife and previously in other committed relationship, but I know it from personal experience because I had much time remorse in my life as in regard to other things I did. Remorse for me is also a spiritual value in many terms especially it is the first stepping stone if you want to put end to YOUR OWN suffering and clarify your mind. Remorse can be beneficial for everyone and in a wider term the betrayed as well as the wayward spouse.

 

Either way, what my wife had was probably a post traumatic response to what had happen maybe culminating through her parent's reaction. Believe me I am well experienced due to my service with people experiencing trauma. Sometime the post traumatic reaction occurs immediately, sometimes weeks or month later and in some cases even years after the initial experience. I also do not expect people while they are in an anxiety and panic attack to be logical. However, notice that after she calmed down she went from the general "what I have done" to specifically "what she has done to me", "what she could do to other people she loves", and many more. Add to this other thing she said and done including what I posted before and it indicates that she indeed has a lot deal of true remorse, not 100%, but even more than one could expect right now. However, that being said, yes I agree with you that it is to early and one must be careful. Yet, once again it is to yearly to offer reconciliation, even to believe it is possible and especially drop divorce. I do have to approach things differently even if I continue with divorce. This is what I pointed in my last post. I try to figure out in which way and still have not all answers. However, this was also the reason why such question began to arise in my mind if it is possible to have a strict rule to infidelity as a deal breaker, but still saying there are some exceptions to that rule, what are those exceptions, if they apply to my wife at all and of course if I am able to handle them. Anyway, I am careful, even very careful, and this is why divorce is still so relevant and alive.

 

Furthermore, what is important is that one could see here consequences not only to me but as to herself through this remorse and otherwise. I think seeing those consequences she suffers is important for the BS not only as to the identification of the true remorse in the WW spouse but as to the question I raised before to with is the imbalance or injustice created. What I mean and ask my self is that if I can see that she suffers true and real consequences, does it actually mean that if I forgive and reconcile she is not getting a free pass, getting away or even getting a prize for what she has done. I think the answer might be positive. To some degree, it sooths your fears, the worries and this feeling of injustice a BS might carry with him. Then, if she does suffer, is her own victim, carries consequences with me, then maybe if other aspects fit correctly than she might be worthy of reconciliation and forgiveness. However, as you stated it's early; I'm not sure and to be true also specifically what concerns my side. In other words, if she does everything correct and everything else goes according to the plan, if even in this case things are really workable and especially I can accept and live with them without losing my face and compromising my values.

Edited September 19, 2015 by GrandFunkRailroad

[Got it]

Grandfunk, I am terribly sorry for the pain you are going through and the emotional turmoil that continues. I do think your wife is showing a clear awareness of the impact of her actions and that is a good sign whether you two reconcile or divorce. She isn't blame shifting anything to you which will make any future relationship a better one.

 

Wishing you all the best and don't rush to decisions. It is so much coming at you right now that it takes time to sift through it. It does not mean you can't take some time a part or do what you need to process. Right now this is about you and what you need. A good source for information is Surviving Infidelity if you want to check them out.

 

You deserve to be supported in whatever decisions you make and how you are processing information. And trust in yourself, you will get through it and you will make the best decisions for yourself. You have shown that in the past and you will do so now.

 

(((((Grandfunk))))))

[fellini]

I miss the point of what you are saying here though. Are you saying that remorse is not nevessary in order to reconcile or that, since the WS had all the chance to not cheat or at least stop the cheating at some point before DDay, they should not deserve reconciliation?

 

I think here and elsewhere I do not agree with the blanket statement that REMORSE is a necessary precondition for reconciliation. I argue that a) it's rare, or b) regret is mistaken often for remorse and c) LTA's make the idea of a DDAY remorse display most unbelievable in my experience.

 

That a WS continues to cheat, as my WW did, through more than a year, suggests she is incapable of remorse. And as I say, I am dubious that most people have seen remorse (about being the victim of enormous betrayal and wrongdoing. Do some WS's find remorse, yes, I think it's possible. On DDAY? No. I don't.

 

Ok so I put them together cause I need the second to prove the first. Of course the WS is a changed person! People change every year of their lives, they become more experienced, mature, strong and so many other things without even an infidelity. We all agree here that infidelity has a huge impact in someone's life. Why would infidelity NOT change a person then?

 

I think people in an affair are not changed. Infidelity might not change a person, but having their BS find out about certain is a catalyst for change.

 

So I disagree with your view that insofar as a spouse is growing, through experience, becoming more mature, stronger, then engages in a Long Term Affair, this person is the same person they were the DAY BEFORE they allowed an extramarital affair begin. One day my WW was adamant that she would never cheat on her husband. The next day she was plotting behind my back to be with another man. I don't call that "change". I call that discovery.

No question my WW has been open to and seeking change in herself now that she has seen the destruction of her selfish satisfying of her desires.

[BetrayedH]

Fellini

 

The only thing I agree with you is that of being careful, but not as offering or being enough for reconciliation but still not dripping the divorce off the table. Even if I hypothetically would agree with you then I would have to immediately conclude that I have to divorce right away. I am sorry but I will never, I repeat never, live, put myself or reconcile with a sociopath, narcissist or whatever other disordered person it might be that is incapable of showing any kind of remorse and empathy. I gave it only as example and it is not a question of label but the principle. To do an act of evil you don't have to be any of them. You must be selfish enough and the evil will follow. However, you can be also more than this. There are not only narcissists and sociopaths over there; there are people with antisocial personality, with various personality disorders, ADHD, Autism and many more. Open please the DSM IV and you'll find much more. Besides of this, narcissism is not a one life time event, both in acting out and regretting, but an ongoing life time condition. If my wife was a narcissist I had for surely recognized it before. Yet, she was none of this. What I saw there was something different and I will elaborate it later, but not narcissism. It sounds as if I'm defending my wife but it is not. It has another purpose. Anyway, I have more of self-worth and self-esteem then surround myself wirth those heartless people. Lowering myself as to except them in my life because I am lacking this self-esteem and confidence is exactly what it means for me of course being a doormat. Some people can honestly say this is what they are and right now that this is what they can do. This is much more honest than to try to rationalize being a doormat as some hero. I RESPECT A LOT PEOPLE THAT HONESTLY ADMITT it. I have a problem with people who try to repress, suppress or deny things. At least, poeple addmiting it are wise as to the level they can see it. It is VERY HONORABLE and ease their suffering in a situation that is otherwise very painful to that degree.

 

Therefore, I will never accept such self-denial that will portray some technically on paper existing marriage and some forcefully and hypocritically forced boundaries on a narcissist, antisocial person/ psychopath/whatever it may be else as a minimum requirement for being or reconciling with that person. This is true not only for infidelity but for each and every aspect of life. I may forgive them anyway, but never reconcile, because for such a person those artificial boundaries mean nothing and he will always find a way to cross them one he wishes so. Anyway, as to remorse I completely disagree that remorse is impossible. I agree that at the beginning it can't be 100% of true remorse and do not expect it, because a person still has no full insight into what happened, yet between the extremities of 100% of true remorse and a narcissist, antisocial person/ psychopath/whatever it may be else, there is a middle path where people can indeed show a remorse to that or the other extent. How much of remorse it should be? Should it be 30%, 40%, 50%, I really don't know. Yet, I do know that if I do not want to be a hypocrite who only have a marriage on paper but truly reconcile, there is no way around remorse and it is possible. It is possible by the way and not only with infidelity. I have never cheated on my wife and previously in other committed relationship, but I know it from personal experience because I had much time remorse in my life as in regard to other things I did. Remorse for me is also a spiritual value in many terms especially it is the first stepping stone if you want to put end to YOUR OWN suffering and clarify your mind. Remorse can be beneficial for everyone and in a wider term the betrayed as well as the wayward spouse.

 

Either way, what my wife had was probably a post traumatic response to what had happen maybe culminating through her parent's reaction. Believe me I am well experienced due to my service with people experiencing trauma. Sometime the post traumatic reaction occurs immediately, sometimes weeks or month later and in some cases even years after the initial experience. I also do not expect people while they are in an anxiety and panic attack to be logical. However, notice that after she calmed down she went from the general "what I have done" to specifically "what she has done to me", "what she could do to other people she loves", and many more. Add to this other thing she said and done including what I posted before and it indicates that she indeed has a lot deal of true remorse, not 100%, but even more than one could expect right now. However, that being said, yes I agree with you that it is to early and one must be careful. Yet, once again it is to yearly to offer reconciliation, even to believe it is possible and especially drop divorce. I do have to approach things differently even if I continue with divorce. This is what I pointed in my last post. I try to figure out in which way and still have not all answers. However, this was also the reason why such question began to arise in my mind if it is possible to have a strict rule to infidelity as a deal breaker, but still saying there are some exceptions to that rule, what are those exceptions, if they apply to my wife at all and of course if I am able to handle them. Anyway, I am careful, even very careful, and this is why divorce is still so relevant and alive.

 

Anyway, I am careful, even very careful, and this is why divorce is still so relevant and alive. Furthermore, what is important is that one could see here consequences not only to me but as to herself through this remorse and otherwise. I think seeing those consequences she suffers is important for the BS not only as to the identification of the true remorse in the WW spouse but as to the question I raised before to with is the imbalance or injustice created. What I mean and ask my self is that if I can see that she suffers true and real consequences, does it actually mean that if I forgive and reconcile she is not getting a free pass, getting away or even getting a prize for what she has done. I think the answer might be positive. To some degree, it sooths your fears, the worries and this feeling of injustice a BS might carry with him. Then, if she does suffer, is her own victim, carries consequences with me, then maybe if other aspects fit correctly than she might be worthy of reconciliation and forgiveness. However, as you stated it's early; I'm not sure and to be true also specifically what concerns my side. In other words, if she does everything correct and everything else goes according to the plan, if even in this case things are really workable and especially I can accept and live with them without losing my face and compromising my values.

 

I think the last paragraph of your post here is where you need to explore. I think you need to question whether reconciliation really means that she gets a "free pass" and that you compromise your values. I think a healthy reconciliation is where the wayward consistently demonstrates remorse, is a partner in carrying the burden, works to resolve their personal issues, and the BS looks inward at their capacity for forgiveness (and I'm talking forgiveness for her, not "forgiveness" where you do it for you and divorce her anyway).

 

We can debate the semantics behind "remorse" all day but remorse is only half of the equation in my book. While half of it might be having a truly remorseful wayward spouse, the other half is having a truly forgiving betrayed spouse. And I do think that a betrayed spouse's perception on forgiveness and their capacity for it can morph over time. During an angry phase, it's easy to label your wayward wife as an evil, selfish, disgusting whore. But in other calmer times, you may look upon your wife as a person who was broken, who made a selfish but tragic choice, and is going to suffer enormous consequences for it (whether she's given the chance to reconcile or not) but you may not feel the need to label her as an evil, disgusting whore. You may instead see her as another flawed human that really wishes to right her wrongs.

 

If you think you may eventually be able to forgive her, then perhaps it is worth investing some additional time to verify that her remorse is more true than feigned. I would say that many betrayed spouses also need more time to determine whether or not they can truly forgive. Many have good intentions but never really can get over it sufficiently to have a decent marriage and so they eventually divorce. But I also think some initially think as you have (that they would be a doormat, etc) but eventually determine that the affair doesn't say anything about them as a BS because it was all about the WS anyway.

 

Reconciliation is a tough path. Is your wife worth it? If so, are you capable?

[Tobin]

Anyway, one thing I know is that divorce or not divorce, in this specific case filing right away and instantly leaving is simply shooting from the hip. It's like abandoning my wounded comrades in the middle of the fight.

 

Poor analogy, you have it almost exactly backwards. Your wounded comrades did not stab you in the back as your wife did.

 

Its insulting to every member of the armed forces to be compared to a cheater. Your comrades are your friends, your buddies, and they have your back and you know they do. If one of them turned on you, like you occasionally hear about in the news- such as a soldier who inexplicably launches a grenade at his own platoon, or a soldier who deserts and joins the enemy lines- there's a much better comparison to your wayward wife.

 

Leaving a cheater is not "shooting from the hip", it's not "abandoning your comrades mid fight". It's turning your back on a person who has, by their own free will and choice, become your adversary, your worst nightmare.

 

I might leave at the end but I must finish my duties and not desert in the middle. Could I (metaphorically) die in the process)? Yes, but death with dignity is better than cowardly escape!

 

Oh please. Turning your back on a cheater and walking away is not cowardly and in fact many would argue that staying with a cheater lacks dignity.

 

For me, staying for these reasons is indeed what I described as being a doormat. If I will stay for these reasons I can't but see myself as a doormat, not a man. Most "reconciled" marriages are like that, I am quite sure about it. This is not worth pursuing. Only few in my opinion have really recovered and truly reconciled.

 

This is true. Which again is why there is nothing cowardly or lacking in dignity by leaving a wayward partner.

[GrandFunkRailroad]

Tobin

 

Yes, you are probably right about the analogy. I wanted to point out something different in the analogy but I agree it is problematic. What I was addressing is the whole situation, not specifically her. If we take her out of the equation so this is what I meant.

 

However, in this situation it is impossible because no matter what happens we will always be intertwined so at the bottom line I should have really chosen a different metaphor. Now, as to shooting from the hip, it has still some validity as there is more than her in the picture and actually to some degree she will be always there even if we divorce. Well, whether I like it or not, divorce does not mean that she is completely and hundred percent out of my life.

 

What I meant with cowardly escape is running away without any consideration on the effect it will have on my children. I think not being able to handle a period of time where everything can be settled in the best way possible for the benefit of everybody this is a cowardly escape. I'll have to deal with it.

[GrandFunkRailroad]

Fellini

 

I think people in an affair are not changed.

People are changed before, in the affair, and in fact after the affair too

 

Infidelity might not change a person,

No, people are changing before, and in a reciprocal way it continues in the affair

 

but having their BS find out about certain is a catalyst for change.

Wrong, sometimes their BS finding might change it into a positive and sometime in a negative way. Change for itself doesn't say anything at all; in fact the only constant fact is the change itself. Whether it is taken to the positive or the negative depends solely on the WW and has nothing to do with the BS. No one can control other people and change them; that's delusion. Yet, being solely in our own capacity, remorse is possible. Actually, ther should be both, regret and remorse, in the wayward spouse.

 

Besides this, change is never a single one time even, it is normally an ongoing process which is based on series of chain of events. This is true even in an ONS. Normally, there was something brooding inside for a longer time and when the conditions where right and it exploded. Once it happens, remorse can arise and begin a positive chain of events. However, as betrayed stated, it is once again only once aspect of the chain of events. Maybe the most or one of the most important, but not the sole one!

 

 

Being said that, the person after the affair is indeed death. This is what I mourn and grief; the death of my beloved wife. This person does not exist anymore. I indeed love and am still in love with that person but she's not here. The woman in front of me is a different woman. Externally, the body, the physical appearance is the same; internally everything else is different. The problem is I want my wife that is not here; do I want another woman, hell no. Right now, I am not sure that if I divorce I want to date and remarry. That is also a small example why remorse no matter how important as initial requirement is only half of the picture.

[GrandFunkRailroad]

BetrayedH

 

capacity for forgiveness (and I'm talking forgiveness for her, not "forgiveness" where you do it for you and divorce her anyway).

 

Forgiveness is never for her; her deeds are unforgivable; it's always for me so I don't have to carry the past with me and be the prisoner of this past for the rest of my life. Reconciliation, while I might work it for myself, is something that I indeed give her. I agree that when you reconcile you must be able to do this for her too so that you do not divorce her years or decades later as punishment, I do believe I am able to forgive (for my own sake and well being); I am not sure I am able to reconcile. That's where my problem might be. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Edited September 19, 2015 by GrandFunkRailroad

[fellini]

Being said that, the person after the affair is indeed death. This is what I mourn and grief; the death of my beloved wife. This person does not exist anymore. I indeed love and am still in love with that person but she's not here. The woman in front of me is a different woman. Externally, the body, the physical appearance is the same; internally everything else is different. The problem is I want my wife that is not here; do I want another woman, hell no. Right now, I am not sure that if I divorce I want to date and remarry. That is also a small example why remorse no matter how important as initial requirement is only half of the picture.

 

You and I have both been through a DDay, and I can tell you that I felt the same way. But I will not reduce my WW to a skeleton. "Internally" everything is DIFFERENT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. It's my internal world that has changed, not necessarily hers.

 

I believe people exaggerate this aspect. I know nothing of your wife, but I do know that when I learned of my WW's infidelity A LOT CHANGED for me, for her, of course. But saying "that woman is gone" dramatic as it sounds, is not true. My wife is STILL the highly intelligent caring person for all things NOT contaminated by her infidelity. The next day her students didn't see a ghost. She picked up exactly where she left off. No one in her family noticed, because she was the same woman to them that she was before DDay. I am not the centre of her universe, nor do I wish to be.

 

I understand that you and I are different. I offer only what I have learned from my experience, and if it is helpful to you, great. But to tell me I am wrong? How is that possible? That it was not your case? Fine. I expect that. But if I say that finding out about my WW's infidelity was a catalyst for her to change? When I have read scores of stories here in LS that speak of turning things around post DDay, when I have lived these 2,5 years --- how can I be WRONG about that? Rhetorical question really.

Edited September 19, 2015 by fellini

[Marc878]

(((Update)))

 

I am not at home at this moment, so wife texted right now; she sent a longer text message/letter. To sum it up, the letter was basically about:

 

1.Remorse: she expressed once again her deep remorse about hurting, humiliating and inflicting so much pain on me. She told that if she'll get the chance, she'll dedicate her life to help me heal and get me rid of that pain.

2.Gratitude: she expressed gratitude not only for everything I have done for her in our twenty years of marriage but that I didn't left her immediately the moment she confessed everything; that I am still here. She said no matter what I decide, she's going to fight for me. She added that even divorce will not stop her from doing so unless I remarry someone afterwards. She used the military terminology, probably knowing I love it, telling that this might be her biggest fight in life and she'll better die in this war than to give up.

3.Determination to win me back and save the marriage: she told that she is basically willing to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING without exception to win me back and save the marriage. She said she knows it's her responsibility so she will give a detailed plan on how she's going to help me to restore my trust and love for her and that I am free to add anything I want and need

 

I did thank her and did not show her any signs of anger whatsoever. However, I don't know, it sounds crazy; I'm not sure but somehow it looks too good to be real.

 

Nicely written but will actions match? Only time will tell that.

 

Whatever path you choose I hope it works out for you

[GrandFunkRailroad]

Fellini

 

Look, I don't want it to become a personal discussion between both of us, but many of your statements are even more general ones about infidelity even more than mines. It's not necessarily, about a specific case, but a general statement how things are. It's not only both of us but I think many people do so. By the way, partially you statement like in the case of remorse go and cross beyond the boundary of infidelity.

 

Besides of this, I know not only how people repress, suppress or deny things. I haven't cheated neither on my wife nor in previous relationships, but I did as I mentioned above other things that I regretted and have remorse partially also because I acted myself in that way. I also helped other with this (not related to infidelity). So, the bottom line is I know it from my own direct experience not in theory; I'm not considering myself being about others, I'm actually like everyone else.

 

That is where my statements are coming from and no one needs to accept them. I don't agree with what you've said, but I'll refrain myself from answering those issue because I don't want the discussion to become too personal. We can agree to disagree on that issue.

Edited September 19, 2015 by GrandFunkRailroad

[autumnnight]

I think here and elsewhere I do not agree with the blanket statement that REMORSE is a necessary precondition for reconciliation. I argue that a) it's rare, or b) regret is mistaken often for remorse and c) LTA's make the idea of a DDAY remorse display most unbelievable in my experience.

 

That a WS continues to cheat, as my WW did, through more than a year, suggests she is incapable of remorse. And as I say, I am dubious that most people have seen remorse (about being the victim of enormous betrayal and wrongdoing. Do some WS's find remorse, yes, I think it's possible. On DDAY? No. I don't.

 

 

 

I think people in an affair are not changed. Infidelity might not change a person, but having their BS find out about certain is a catalyst for change.

 

So I disagree with your view that insofar as a spouse is growing, through experience, becoming more mature, stronger, then engages in a Long Term Affair, this person is the same person they were the DAY BEFORE they allowed an extramarital affair begin. One day my WW was adamant that she would never cheat on her husband. The next day she was plotting behind my back to be with another man. I don't call that "change". I call that discovery.

No question my WW has been open to and seeking change in herself now that she has seen the destruction of her selfish satisfying of her desires.

 

So it's not so much that the WS was or becomes a person of value. You're just an elevated enough person to accept her unchangeable sociopathy.

[cgiles]

Sorry for the bad english.

 

I just read your whole thread, and I agree on a lot of point with you ( about mistake and cheating, or the process of forgiveness which is some kind of mourning) and understand your point of view you had at first to go to divorce.

 

If you didn't read it yet, as you was exploring the industry of the reconciliation, give a look to the 180list, it's a list of behavior, for betrayed people, for move on emotionally, and find out you can be happy by yourself.

I'm not sure you need it, but it's an interesting ressource : The 180 | AFFAIRCARE

 

Your wife had a mental breakdown, be careful. It happens than when a cheater found out all the destruction they made, they can't mentally support the guilt.

Like you said, the exposure to her parents certainly been the trigger of it.

 

I think you should pursue divorce, and starts to take coparent class with your wife, besides the MC if you do one with her, for maybe give some closure to your marriage.

 

Coparent class is I think a must, first it will show to her than you want to keep a relationship with her, even if it's obvious you must keep one, as she is the mother of your children.

 

I said maybe closure to your marriage, because nothing forgive you to end this marriage, and stays with her, maybe getting married again in the future.

 

It's one possible solutions, get rid of this tainted marriage, continue a relationship with her, not the one you had, this one is gone, but another one.

 

You seem smart, you know what you want, you respect yourself, your wife seems to fully understand what she did, donno if she is narcissist or not.

 

You know the answer, but her cheating sounds like a "mistake" in her life path, a mistake in the true meaning of it, she ignored the bad outcome of her choice when she started, but her deciding to continue, is fully her fault.

 

And so there is something you need to know, for be able to decide, it's who pursued who, does your wife chased him, or she was chased.

 

If you doubt she says the truth, there is polygraph, not fully reliable, but it's a powerfull bluff.

You can find skilled company, with good questionner, and analist.

 

You should visit your counsellor for veteran, you are not the first soldier to compare the betrayal of their cheating spouse to their experience on the battlefield. Like you they find it harder to live than what they lived in the battlefield or after it.

 

You should give a look to this : https://i.imgur.com/nNuXAN1.jpg It can help you to find some meanings to your feelings.

 

When your wife will be more stable, you should give her this : Understanding Your Loyal Spouse | AFFAIRCARE

[fellini]

So it's not so much that the WS was or becomes a person of value. You're just an elevated enough person to accept her unchangeable sociopathy.

 

Is this you trying to be witty, Or do you have a point to make?

 

"So it's not so much that the WS was or becomes a person of value."

I have yet to discuss anything about the WS as a person of value.

 

"You're just an elevated enough person to accept her unchangeable sociopathy."

You know something about my WW that I don't?

[autumnnight]

Is this you trying to be witty, Or do you have a point to make?

 

"So it's not so much that the WS was or becomes a person of value."

I have yet to discuss anything about the WS as a person of value.

 

"You're just an elevated enough person to accept her unchangeable sociopathy."

You know something about my WW that I don't?

 

All the stuff about them not changing and not being capable of remorse. I just wondered. If the OP's can never change and isn't going to Be capable of remorse, in my mind that's just more reason to end it now.

[sandylee1]

 

I believe people exaggerate this aspect. I know nothing of your wife, but I do know that when I learned of my WW's infidelity A LOT CHANGED for me, for her, of course. But saying "that woman is gone" dramatic as it sounds, is not true. My wife is STILL the highly intelligent caring person for all things NOT contaminated by her infidelity. The next day her students didn't see a ghost. She picked up exactly where she left off. No one in her family noticed, because she was the same woman to them that she was before DDay.

 

I think this is a personal thing really and to say he's exaggerating is purely subjective.

 

The woman he knew would not have betrayed him this way - so she is gone to the OP.

 

A WS may appear the same to those they didn't betray and if they carried on as normal, it just shows how easily cheating comes to them..

 

That's why infidelity is what they call a s**t sandwich for the BS.

 

I'll say it again - reconciliation is NOT possible for everyone. One act is enough to end the marriage for many.

 

The problem is far too many WSs are confident of reconciliation. I don't think this is the case with the OPs wife though and a ONS could be seen as a 'mistake ' , not an affair for months and years .

 

It's the continuing to live with a lack of trust that many are not able to do. If WSs expected divorce following infidelity, they might stop and think.

 

OP - do what your gut says. I believe consequences are a must with infidelity and if it has to be divorce, then so be it.

 

Take care

[NewLeaf512]

At least she found the nerve to come clean. She got drunk and got screwed, it must have been very hard for her to tell you, don't let anyone talk you into the line that is was partly your fault. If she remembers it she wasn't too drunk to resist. She made a mistake. A very big mistake. You are free to divorce now, you are also free to stay and try to make it work. I would say for you to try and give her some peace about it,make your decision and go with it.

 

I'm not sure how to articulate what about this post makes me hideously uncomfortable but it swirls around drunk remember resist which indicates a few things that seem to be your belief but I may not understand. Are you suggesting something related to sexual assault? If you are, and you are so drunk you are in a black out you couldn't resist anyway. Are you saying being able to remember something makes you culpable? Do you think in all cases if someone is assaulted in some way they have to resist? If she resisted is it rape not a ONS?

[goodyblue]

I think this is a personal thing really and to say he's exaggerating is purely subjective.

 

The woman he knew would not have betrayed him this way - so she is gone to the OP.

 

A WS may appear the same to those they didn't betray and if they carried on as normal, it just shows how easily cheating comes to them..

 

That's why infidelity is what they call a s**t sandwich for the BS.

 

I'll say it again - reconciliation is NOT possible for everyone. One act is enough to end the marriage for many.

 

The problem is far too many WSs are confident of reconciliation. I don't think this is the case with the OPs wife though and a ONS could be seen as a 'mistake ' , not an affair for months and years .

 

It's the continuing to live with a lack of trust that many are not able to do. If WSs expected divorce following infidelity, they might stop and think.

 

OP - do what your gut says. I believe consequences are a must with infidelity and if it has to be divorce, then so be it.

 

Take care

 

But... if the WS was the same in every other aspect of their life and nobody noticed a change at all... wouldn't that point to a problem with the relationship more than a flaw in the person? Hm.

[purplesorrow]

But... if the WS was the same in every other aspect of their life and nobody noticed a change at all... wouldn't that point to a problem with the relationship more than a flaw in the person? Hm.

 

How so? If know one else knows what ws did, why would they think anything differently? When my ex told his friends and family, they had the same shocked hurt, and disappointed reaction I did. Some of his friendships changed because they felt betrayed by who they thought he was.

[goodyblue]

How so? If know one else knows what ws did, why would they think anything differently? When my ex told his friends and family, they had the same shocked hurt, and disappointed reaction I did. Some of his friendships changed because they felt betrayed by who they thought he was.

 

I guess my point is, if someone is trustworthy in every aspect of their life save the betrayal in that one relationship (not talking serials) why should that one thing color every aspect of that person's life? To me that points to a failure in the relationship. That is all I am saying.

[purplesorrow]

I guess my point is, if someone is trustworthy in every aspect of their life save the betrayal in that one relationship (not talking serials) why should that one thing color every aspect of that person's life? To me that points to a failure in the relationship. That is all I am saying.

 

It is still their personal failure, not the relationships. In no other situation would you apply that logic. They had other choices.