Why not to bring up marriage first

[almond]

"Why buy the cow when the milk is free?"

 

I don't want my boyfriend to marry me in order to "buy" more of me, or out of fear that I'm not committed and may leave for someone else.

 

We live together. I give him all of me. We are not engaged. I want him to marry me because he wants to spend the rest of his life with me by his side, and that's all. "What are the incentives?" That is the incentive! And if that's not enough for a man, then he isn't the man for me.

 

My partner knows he has my commitment (not through any insistence on marrying from my side however), and I definitely don't see that as a bad thing. We have discussed it, and we will marry when we are both ready, are looking to start a family together, and have done all we need to do first.

Edited September 15, 2015 by almond

[Radu]

I just think it's worth noting that being the one to broach the subject of marriage can actually have the opposite effect. It takes all urgency and motivation out of it for the other party. They know they have your commitment. They already have it without giving you theirs. What do they gain by asking you to marry them? Nothing.

A discussion should be had early on about timetables, if after it you accept his timetable but still want yours and try to push it in a passive or passive-aggressive way ... you are the problem.

 

I just thought it clarified some things for me. What I got out of it is if you're wanting commitment, don't let yourself get locked down without it. Date other people, don't move in with them. Give them some reason to want to get that commitment from you so you have mutual commitment. Instead of bringing up marriage and dropping hints, she should have simply started dating other people, and chances are he'd have wanted commitment sooner.

So ... ring on the finger or you can go out and bang some dudes ?

 

I don't know about other guys but for me (and probably some others), this shows you are not worth ... anything.

[Radu]

That's fine but you Also need to dump that guy who hasn't married you after a couple of years, if you are a woman who wants to get married and have children. Men will waste all your childbearing years farting around because they don't have a biological clock and could care less about yours (until HE wants children, then they care about it). I'm glad my babymaking days are over and I don't have to worry about that.

 

Men do in fact have a biological clock.

Mine kicked in at around 28.

 

The difference is that we are not so driven to have kids early on because of biological limitations ... different thing.

It can be somewhat postponed, so it gets postponed.

[Dolfin80]

I was watching the Steve Harvey show the other day and they had a bunch ....

 

I just thought it clarified some things for me. What I got out of it is if you're wanting commitment, don't let yourself get locked down without it. Date other people, don't move in with them. Give them some reason to want to get that commitment from you so you have mutual commitment. Instead of bringing up marriage and dropping hints, she should have simply started dating other people, and chances are he'd have wanted commitment sooner.

 

Ah no. He would think she is a player and dump her on the spot. No one wants to be with someone who dates several people at once....think of STDs

[Got it]

My advice to women out there who want a decent guy to marry them is to be the type of girl those decent guys can't help but want to marry. Impress the crap out of your guy to the point where he thinks he would be stupid not to marry you.

 

If you want to get promoted at work, would you bug your boss every day about a raise or promotion? No, you step up your game. You dress the part, you take on more responsibilities, and you show them that you are the person they want. Relationships work the same way.

 

Okay . . . but isn't this falsifying yourself to some degree? The idea is you want the person to want to marry you for you, not for a facade you put on. For work, yes, there is a facade and that is fine (I call it my work persona) but I want to be authentically me in my personal life.

 

Isn't this the same thing where once married the guy complains how the girl changed and isn't doing any of the things she was doing prior to the marriage.

 

Just seems like a false bill of goods.

[Got it]

My approach to dating/marriage has been, to be me. To be communicative about what I want, ask the other person what they want, and if we are at a cross roads to try and discuss it. I fully respect that the other party may not be at the same decision as myself at the same point of time. And there is a reasonable compromise of time, etc. to see if we can each get to a mutually agreed upon decision.

 

But if we can't, if they aren't willing to compromise, etc. then I will be straight up about saying it isn't working. It is simply a square peg round hole. Doesn't mean either party does care for the other, it just means they are in a different place in life. And that is okay. Sad. But okay.

 

There is no reason to do an ultimatum, to threaten, to nag. Just lay out how one feels, ask the other person their thoughts and then assess.

 

I would never "sell" myself in any other light to a significant other than who I am. Of course I want to be the "best" me for them because I care for them, and that is my motivation at all times. There is no game playing, no manipulation, etc. That is ridiculous. The end game is NOT marriage. The next step is marriage so a foundation is based upon that threshold.

[RedRobin]

I can't think of too many things or people in life that respond positively to ultimatums...

 

 

That said, I think everyone is within their rights to express their expectations and goals... Hopefully in a way that doesn't come across as an ultimatum.

 

 

If the person not wanting deeper commitment or marriage is dating someone who generally has marriage, etc as a life goal, then he/she should not be surprised when the person who HAS that goal... walks. I also think it is contingent for the person who has that goal, to only date men/women who also have that goal, but perhaps haven't found the right person... and you know when someone is serious about that goal or just effing around. The whole "someday" thing is another way that commitment phobes string someone along. Doesn't take me 2-3 years. 6 months or a year max is all I need to see the trajectory. Heck with some, it is only a few months and I can see whatever they are spouting is baloney. People need to be more alert and less hopeful, if you ask me.

 

 

This is no different than the boss who knows that his/her employee has a goal of completing a certain level of education or training. If the boss can't provide some reason or timetable for that education/training/promotion, then the employee is within their rights to walk. I've come across more than one boss who would say something like "I'll promote you if you meet this level"... then you meet that level and they say "oh, yea, the new level is this"... It's a game and its manipulative.

 

 

A lot of commitment phobes will try to play that game too. The "if you do this and this, then I'll commit to you". That's BS. If/when I see any indication of this, I'm out the door.

 

 

People need to remember that every relationship is a negotiation... whether it is stated or implied. I don't care what relationship it is... business, personal, or romantic... everyone is measuring the pros and cons... and using that to make decisions.

 

 

The best anyone can do is find an honest negotiator. Then act accordingly.

[BluEyeL]

My advice to women out there who want a decent guy to marry them is to be the type of girl those decent guys can't help but want to marry. Impress the crap out of your guy to the point where he thinks he would be stupid not to marry you.

 

If you want to get promoted at work, would you bug your boss every day about a raise or promotion? No, you step up your game. You dress the part, you take on more responsibilities, and you show them that you are the person they want. Relationships work the same way.

In fact, at work you have to speak up or else nobody will go out of their way to recognize you, if they know they can get away with paying you less, or making less effort in promoting your career in other ways. Women are notorious for not asking for promotions or raises.

 

I also resent the association where in a relationship the guy is my boss and I need to impress him so he finally notices me and in his great generosity promotes me to wife.

[BluEyeL]

That old book, He's Just Not That Into You, makes it clear I think.

 

A man who WANTS to marry you will, and it won't take him endless years to figure it out. If you are adults and you have been dating 2-3 years and he has yet to mention marriage....he doesn't want to marry you. If he did he'd move heaven and earth to make it happen. Same with women.

 

I also agree that begging someone to marry you is a dumb idea. You really want someone you had to BEG and badger? Not me. And for the love of God, if you plan to cut off sex or cast hubby aside once the babies come, please let the poor man know that ahead of time!

I agree. I would never beg a man to marry me. But if I wanted that complete commitment and he would not be on the same page, but prefer to just date for years or move in indefinitely I just know it wouldn't work out. I'd end up resenting him. So for me, after a significant amount of time I'd just leave. No pressure but everyone wants to be valued and there are two there not a boss and an employee who plays maid and other roles with no proper recognition

[Woggle]

Man or woman if you want somebody of quality then be a person of quality yourself. Show how marriage to you will make their life better.

[Got it]

I never said anything in my post about falsifying oneself in order to get a marriage proposal. I would never suggest someone pretend to be a better partner, but instead to be a better partner.

 

My advice to women out there who want a decent guy to marry them is to be the type of girl those decent guys can't help but want to marry. Impress the crap out of your guy to the point where he thinks he would be stupid not to marry you.

 

This seems to indicate being something even if you are not it. You are to be the type of girl a guy can't help but want to marry. One, who is that type and what are the characteristics? And two, if you don't fit the mold then you either won't be who guys want to marry or you pretend to be.

 

So yes, it does sound like you are saying be someone you may not be. And it is still about pretending and/or jumping through hoops.

 

I have never tried to be someone other than me. I just do me, hold my standards, expect similar expectations and do not ask for anything I wouldn't do. And that has been pretty successful for me.

 

I couldn't begin to fathom what type of woman, what that actually means, that guys (plural) want to marry. What about guys being the type of guy that girls want to marry?

[Got it]

All true.

 

 

 

You are just looking for reasons to be offended here. I never said anything about a man being your boss.

 

Men want certain things in a future wife, as I'm sure women want certain things in a future husband. A woman can either sit around and wait for a great guy to decide that she is the kind of woman he should marry, or she can show him how great she is, every day. If you have to wonder which type of woman gets the ring, I can't help you.

 

Have you thought that potentially what you want in a woman to whom you would marry is actually not necessarily what other guys would want? Since each guy is a unique individual, their "criteria" is going to vary. Same for women.

 

What another woman may want, perhaps a man that will be a provider, be in agreement that she stays home to raise kids, would be the EXACT opposite of what I want/have, a husband that supports and encourages a high level career in his spouse, a spouse that is actually more open to be the SAH than myself, and interested in a more equal/less traditional arrangement.

 

I am a woman that has had no problem "getting the ring" and I am still quite confused by your assumptions.

[RedRobin]

I think what is implied is that a woman who 'gets the ring' somehow has to be some servile, indentured servant to some guy.

 

That has never been my MO. I've been married... and divorced to the guy who thought I was going to be different after he married me (ie, that I'd magically transform into some mother/domestic goddess type)... but for some reason, had no problems wanting to marry me...

 

 

Engaged to someone who died... also someone I didn't need to chase after and 'step up' anything.

 

 

... and I've been proposed to twice since my fiancée died to men who. again, I didn't chase after or twist myself into knots to impress. I didn't marry them, obviously, so it's clear that there is more than one person here doing the deciding... or ring chasing, or whatever people want to call it.

 

 

So, my advice to ladies is to ditch any guy who proposes this master/servant style relationship unless, indeed, you prefer to be a servant. I'm sure some do.

 

 

My advice to anyone is be the best person you can be for YOU. And no one else. And seek like-minded people to partner with. It's not any more complicated than that.

Edited September 19, 2015 by RedRobin

[Woggle]

It's funny how you think being good marriage material somehow makes a woman a servant. Man or woman if you want somebody to want to marry you present your case. Show with actions why you would be somebody worth committing to. I know I would not want a woman who thinks being a good partner makes a woman a servant.

[BluEyeL]

Because YOU made the association between man and woman to be that of boss / employee, and the employee is obviously the one with less power and who is in a "serving" position

 

Look, if a guy wants to marry you , he will let you know. If he doesn't and you do, it's ok to ask. If marriage is important to you you'll resent him for what you'll perceive as unfair. If freedom is most important to him and you nag him to marry you, he'lol end up resenting you for pushing him into something he didn't want to do. So if a woman wants marriage, after 3-4 years is ok to have a talk and ask what he thinks . If he says not interested in that there is no convincing to do. You just walk away because you want different things and no one should have to do what they don't want to do and it is just not a match. As a woman, don't be the string along. And don't nag. It's humiliating and I personally wouldn't want to marry someone I had to beg and drag to the altar.

[Got it]

Nowhere in any of my posts have I said anything about someone pretending or jumping through hoops. That is your overactive imagination at work.

 

 

 

I'm not the one taking other people's posts and making assumptions about them.

 

 

 

Yeah, because that's what makes someone a great relationship partner, someone worried about themselves and "no one else."

 

Again, I have never said anything about being "servile." Where do you people even come up with this stuff? Feminist handbook?

 

Maybe you aren't as clear as you think you are. You seem to want to say one thing but your writing is lacking then. If your argument is not being clearly understood the onus is on you, not the readers. This is basic written communication.

 

Are you even married? Been in a mutually satisfactory relationship? If you can't say yes to either question then how much can you know about the answer to the original question?

 

And you are QUITE prickly! Sensitive much?

[RedRobin]

It's funny how you think being good marriage material somehow makes a woman a servant. Man or woman if you want somebody to want to marry you present your case. Show with actions why you would be somebody worth committing to. I know I would not want a woman who thinks being a good partner makes a woman a servant.

I don't think that at all... Its funny how you think I believe that. I happen to have very good examples of marriage, and they each take care of each other. It isn't one person saying "hey, do my bidding or else"

 

 

anyone who says I have to 'step up my game' or whatever to 'get the ring' is implying that.

 

 

I've never 'stepped up my game' to get some guy to marry me. Ever.

 

 

I do my best to be the best person I can be everyday for all of the people I care about. I show with actions that I'm a person worth having in their life... period... but if they think this is some kind of stupid competition or I have something to 'prove' to them, and they are going to dangle this ring thing as some kind of 'prize' for being on your best behavior... that's wrong thinking, if you ask me.

 

 

Lots of commitment phobes talk like it's a competition, because to them, relationship is are about power and what they can get out of someone... to them, its not about compatibility or making a good team or developing intimacy. Nope. It's all about them and what THEY are getting out of it.

 

 

So yea... I avoid those.

 

 

But yea, I can see why this touches a nerve with some guys... some like the deal where women are chasing after them dying to marry them and knocking themselves out... with the guy knowing full well they will just suck her dry... then move on to the next girl when the one they were with gets tired of his 'game' and realizes it never was about love... and never was a partnership.

[BluEyeL]

I don't think that at all... Its funny how you think I believe that. I happen to have very good examples of marriage, and they each take care of each other. It isn't one person saying "hey, do my bidding or else"

 

 

anyone who says I have to 'step up my game' or whatever to 'get the ring' is implying that.

 

 

I've never 'stepped up my game' to get some guy to marry me. Ever.

 

 

I do my best to be the best person I can be everyday for all of the people I care about. I show with actions that I'm a person worth having in their life... period... but if they think this is some kind of stupid competition or I have something to 'prove' to them, and they are going to dangle this ring thing as some kind of 'prize' for being on your best behavior... that's wrong thinking, if you ask me.

 

 

Lots of commitment phobes talk like it's a competition, because to them, relationship is are about power and what they can get out of someone... to them, its not about compatibility or making a good team or developing intimacy. Nope. It's all about them and what THEY are getting out of it.

 

 

So yea... I avoid those.

 

 

But yea, I can see why this touches a nerve with some guys... some like the deal where women are chasing after them dying to marry them and knocking themselves out... with the guy knowing full well they will just suck her dry... then move on to the next girl when the one they were with gets tired of his 'game' and realizes it never was about love... and never was a partnership.

I completely agree with everything you said here. There is a type of man that doesn't ever intend to commit to anyone, but rationalizes to everyone and maybe himself that nobody was "good enough". That's textbook. Some string a woman along for a decade or more, because they can. Often women do not wake up for years and years or even decades.

[RedRobin]

I completely agree with everything you said here. There is a type of man that doesn't ever intend to commit to anyone, but rationalizes to everyone and maybe himself that nobody was "good enough". That's textbook. Some string a woman along for a decade or more, because they can. Often women do not wake up for years and years or even decades.

 

Agree... Maybe what some guys are missing here... Is that women fear or avoid 'that type of man' just as much or more than men fear or avoid the type of woman who they feel uses sex as a weapon... Or who will marry them and dump them later, taking everything they own and the kids too.

 

There are brands of manipulation on both sides... And to me, it all comes from a cynical place where relationships are about something other than mutual care.

 

If you aren't the kind of person who views relationships that cynically, it can be easy to get taken in, and not realize what is going on for a long time.

Edited September 19, 2015 by RedRobin

[preraph]

Ah no. He would think she is a player and dump her on the spot. No one wants to be with someone who dates several people at once....think of STDs

 

Think of condoms. Think of making a commitment so you can have her to yourself.

[preraph]

A discussion should be had early on about timetables, if after it you accept his timetable but still want yours and try to push it in a passive or passive-aggressive way ... you are the problem.

 

 

So ... ring on the finger or you can go out and bang some dudes ?

 

I don't know about other guys but for me (and probably some others), this shows you are not worth ... anything.

 

"Dating" doesn't automatically mean "banging." It doesn't exclude it either. All I can tell you is it's a good thing women don't automatically write men off who have slept around and continue to do so or very few of you would ever get a wife. Double standard. If a guy doesn't want to commit and marriage is what you want (it wasn't my priority personally), then it's simple math. Keep dating until you find someone that wants what you want and wants you.

[preraph]

Okay . . . but isn't this falsifying yourself to some degree? The idea is you want the person to want to marry you for you, not for a facade you put on. For work, yes, there is a facade and that is fine (I call it my work persona) but I want to be authentically me in my personal life.

 

Isn't this the same thing where once married the guy complains how the girl changed and isn't doing any of the things she was doing prior to the marriage.

 

Just seems like a false bill of goods.

 

No, because if you have your head on straight, you only want them to marry you IF they are capable of making a commitment. Otherwise you want them to clear out and let you find someone who'll make a good husband. And again, I'm saying IF your goal is to find a good husband. That's not the be-all end-all for everyone nowadays.

[preraph]

My advice to women out there who want a decent guy to marry them is to be the type of girl those decent guys can't help but want to marry. Impress the crap out of your guy to the point where he thinks he would be stupid not to marry you.

 

This seems to indicate being something even if you are not it. You are to be the type of girl a guy can't help but want to marry. One, who is that type and what are the characteristics? And two, if you don't fit the mold then you either won't be who guys want to marry or you pretend to be.

 

So yes, it does sound like you are saying be someone you may not be. And it is still about pretending and/or jumping through hoops.

 

I have never tried to be someone other than me. I just do me, hold my standards, expect similar expectations and do not ask for anything I wouldn't do. And that has been pretty successful for me.

 

I couldn't begin to fathom what type of woman, what that actually means, that guys (plural) want to marry. What about guys being the type of guy that girls want to marry?

 

You can't tailor yourself to be the woman in a guy's head. It's not genuine, plus you don't know -- and probably wouldn't like it if you did know. If a guy is ready to get married, he will marry someone who will be a good match for him and who is being themselves, because trying to be someone you're not only holds up until the first tiff and then it falls apart completely. That's part of the whole problem: People who fake that they're really looking for commitment when they're really not or they're on their best behavior and then after 2 years that falls apart. Everyone know you can't count on who you're dating to be the same person as they were that first few months of trying to impress you.

[Woggle]

Often times men let women know right from the start he is not about marriage and then get mad when she finds out he means it. I have a friend who lived with a woman for ten years and he told her from the start he will never marry anybody. I had them both in my living room and he was bashing marriage and she herself was agreeing that it was just a piece of paper. I heard those words come right out of her mouth but she went out of town to attend a friend's wedding and when she returned it was like somebody flipped a switch in her.

 

All of a sudden she wanted to get married and wanted them to make their relationship official and he said no. He told her that if she wants a husband she can move on because he is not the man for her but will never legally bind himself to a woman. Because of this he was considered a commitment phobic jerk who strung her along when he did nothing of the sort. He stuck to the original agreement while she wanted to unilaterally change the rules.

[Woggle]

I am in a great marriage and when I was single after my divorce I said that I will never marry again unless a woman proves herself worth investing my time and emotion in her. I never expected such a woman to come along but she did and I am glad I had that mentality. Nobody should try to be what they aren't but if you are naturally not good spouse material then you shouldn't be getting married anyway.