Feminism and gender roles

[mrldii]

...Then people try to preach about sexism in the workplace. In reality, men work more hours per week than women do, we take fewer vacation days, and overall, spend more time in the workforce. There are stats out there that take these issues into account, but I have yet to see a feminist that bothered to acknowledge them. It is also worth pointing out that new studies have shown women under 30 actually make more money than men under 30 do. Lastly, thinking that businesses pay women less money for equal work is weak, logically. As a business manager, if I could hire a woman to do equal work as a man, but pay her less, there would be no incentive to hire men...

 

Would you then force employers to hire women, and pay them an "equal wage" even though they are more likely to take off more time from work? It's good that you acknowledge that women are more likely to take time off from work, because that is precisely why men earn more, we are at work more...

 

 

That IS the point and most feminists DO acknowledge that fact. It appears, with this argument, that the effects of this fact are simply being ignored, NOT the fact itself.

 

In most cases, it takes a man AND a woman to create a baby; in those situations where this baby is produced within the confines of an on-going relationship, it is most usually the woman who takes time off work to take the child to doctors'/dentists' appointments, to shuttle the kids off to ballet/karate/football/baseball/soccer/cheerleading/[etc.] practices and events. It is more often the woman who takes time off from work when the child is sick and cannot go to school/daycare.

 

Of course that's going to effect her paycheck; of course that's going to allow men to work more hours and make more money.

 

Why does that fact that the woman has the womb which is necessary only when creating the child automatically translate into, "Hey!!! YOU created it...YOU take the hit to the paycheck by taking the time off to care for it and leave me out of this equation!!!"?!?

 

Fathers can take time off, too, to tend to the matters involving their own children. No, really, they can.

 

 

 

 

[elaine567]

Fathers can take time off, too, to tend to the matters involving their own children. No, really, they can.

 

 

Norway and paternity leave: Father's day of a different kind - CSMonitor.com

 

"The Norwegian government has socially engineered a society where men and women are expected to have equal domestic and economic responsibilities. Walk around the streets of Oslo on a weekday morning and you’ll see proof: there are dads everywhere. Equipped with babybags, strollers or babycarriers, you’ll find them in coffee shops or at playgroups singing nursery rhymes."

[Keenly]

That IS the point and most feminists DO acknowledge that fact. It appears, with this argument, that the effects of this fact are simply being ignored, NOT the fact itself.

 

In most cases, it takes a man AND a woman to create a baby; in those situations where this baby is produced within the confines of an on-going relationship, it is most usually the woman who takes time off work to take the child to doctors'/dentists' appointments, to shuttle the kids off to ballet/karate/football/baseball/soccer/cheerleading/[etc.] practices and events. It is more often the woman who takes time off from work when the child is sick and cannot go to school/daycare.

 

Of course that's going to effect her paycheck; of course that's going to allow men to work more hours and make more money.

 

Why does that fact that the woman has the womb which is necessary only when creating the child automatically translate into, "Hey!!! YOU created it...YOU take the hit to the paycheck by taking the time off to care for it and leave me out of this equation!!!"?!?

 

Fathers can take time off, too, to tend to the matters involving their own children. No, really, they can.

 

 

 

 

 

Because women choose to.

[serial muse]

Because women choose to.

 

And why don't men choose to?

[Rejected Rosebud]

As I have said numerous times, but people somehow keep missing, the illusory pay gap is not a result of men paying women less because they expect less from them, it is a result of women earning less money, because they are not at work long enough to earn more. If I make $50.00 per hour, and you make $50.00 per hour, but I work 45 hour per week to your 40, I will have earned more overall.

 

Illusory??

 

Many of the statistics are figured out based on hourly earnings OR salary, so I am sorry but I must refute that argument! Besides, who says that a man automatically works longer hours on the job than a woman??:confused:

 

As another poster pointed out, accurate statistics on earnings that debunk the gender wage gap myth are readily available to anyone who actually is interested in educating themselves on the topic prior to discussion. I can only do so much to make you understand reality if you are unwilling to learn.

 

You know, enigma32, you are doing yourself a disservice by taking that arch tone, believe it or not there are quite alot of people on this thread who may happen to disagree with you, who are at LEAST as smart as you are and as capable of "understanding reality" and "educating themselves on the topic" as you are. It lessens your credibility by alot. :(

 

The fact is that there are mountains of evidence to support a gender wage gap, and it is not so easy to dismiss as simply saying "I'm smart and you're not" in so many words. You'd have to address the actual evidence.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Rejected Rosebud

[elaine567]

Appears the UK Govt. is putting measures into place to attempt to solve a problem that seemingly doesn't exist...

 

David Cameron sets out plans to tackle gender pay gap - BBC News

 

Large firms will have to reveal gender pay gap

[baco]

The wage gap can be explained by many factors and altough I'm not saying that some employers don't discriminate based on sex, I have to say that (in the western world off course) sex is not a major factor in wages. In case of government jobs, at least in Europe and I'm guessing the US, altough I'm not very familiar with that reality wages are the same for the role.

 

In the private sector things may be a bit different, but it comes more to the individual, what risks are we willing to take (are people willing to change jobs, go to a different company or even country/state) and our negotial skills (to the point of threatning to leave), getting a raise these days is not easy.

[autumnnight]

I really hope you aren't suggesting here that women deserve a pay raise to compensate for the fact that they don't work as much.

 

No, she was listing the REASONS women often work less hours than men. It is because they are the ones expected to go to the doctor, stay home when junior is puking, etc. etc. etc. When I was married and my kids were small, I had to have a substitute hired if I missed. Hubby didn't. Guess who STILL ended up doing all the taking?

[Keenly]

And why don't men choose to?

 

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

[baco]

No, she was listing the REASONS women often work less hours than men. It is because they are the ones expected to go to the doctor, stay home when junior is puking, etc. etc. etc. When I was married and my kids were small, I had to have a substitute hired if I missed. Hubby didn't. Guess who STILL ended up doing all the taking?

 

This is still true today, but things are changing, me and my wife share most of the workload, so do most young couples I know, back when I was a kid my mother did all the housework, so did most women.

 

In many european countries laws have been approved these last years that allow the father to dedicate more time to his children, longer paternity leaves, even letting parents chose to have the father be home and the mother to work. So in terms of laws (in my reality at least) I think things are going the right way.

Society however still needs to improve a bit, stay at home fathers are still rare compared to stay at home mothers and are not very well viewed by society.

 

That is another issue with all this, men are still expected to earn more than their wifes, if they don't they are often considered a failurere.

 

In a household were both work and only one salary is enough to support both, if the women loses her job, most people won't think much, but if the men loses the job, things are very different, we have been through a major economic crisis and many people have lost their jobs and I was shocked to hear some people advising women to leave their husbands because they have just lost their jobs and are living at the expense of the wife and we are not talking about freeloaders, but men who have worked all their lifes and got laid off suddenly.

 

So in western countries I believe that things are going in the right direction, mentalities still need to change, but will in time

[bcnguy]

Norway and paternity leave: Father's day of a different kind - CSMonitor.com

 

"The Norwegian government has socially engineered a society where men and women are expected to have equal domestic and economic responsibilities. Walk around the streets of Oslo on a weekday morning and you’ll see proof: there are dads everywhere. Equipped with babybags, strollers or babycarriers, you’ll find them in coffee shops or at playgroups singing nursery rhymes."

That is true although there is some controversy/debate among scholars/researchers esp. regarding to education and job market preference differences between genders.

 

Risking to summarize it in excess, Different scientific fields and scientist from different countries currently disagree -big time- on the weight and role played by socialization within our societies. It basically continues the old adage Nature vs. Nurture and what policies should be implemented in practice.

 

I've read about several scientist from mainly Anglo countries concerned that the Norwegian approach forgets neuroscientific evidence regarding to gender differences (identity, preferences, etc). For instance, there is mounting evidence of the effects in the brain for testosterone irrigation of fetuses in the womb beyond bodily transformation E.g this last very publicized big study about transitioning transgenders -female to male-, and the link between anatomy changes that explain old known gender differences in speech pattern (versatility, vocabulary, etc).

Edited September 3, 2015 by bcnguy

[BlueIris]

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

 

What “society expects” is one of the main points of the discussion. Societal expectations and assumptions have changed in large part because of feminism.

 

If a man truly wants to be an involved parent, he tells his employer that he’s taking time off to parent. That might negatively affect his income, advancement or even ability to take certain jobs.

 

There are an increasing number of dads who do that, and now, there is far less pressure on them to marry or remarry to have a woman to care for their children.

[Rejected Rosebud]

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

Or, you can look at it like if a woman chooses to go to work and not stay with her children, she is considered a BAD MOMMY because society expects women to be maternal and nurturing???:confused:

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

What? We don't NEED gender roles.

[Rejected Rosebud]

What “society expects” is one of the main points of the discussion. Societal expectations and assumptions have changed in large part because of feminism.

"What society expects." I really really hope that everybody is able to NOT live their lives based on being a conformist, that is terribly depressing of a thought. "Without deviation progress is not possible." Frank Zappa said that! :bunny:

[carhill]

Classic line:

 

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

 

Extrapolating, if a man exhibits outlier behavior to gender norms, and, at best, no one cares, he is invisible, shunned, and ignored. While, in theory, this should be irrelevant to existence, all but the most hardy of us require social groups for surviving and thriving so such societal ignoral comes at a personal cost. That could be where one lives, what one does, who one associates with, etc, etc.

 

As an example, in a place mentioned prior, Sweden I think, men are encouraged, apparently as a matter of public policy and societal norm, to actively engage in matters of the family and children, even to the extent that it impinges upon their work. Employers/customers are part of Swedish society and apparently support this perspective for men and don't shun or otherwise penalize men who engage in such behaviors.

 

In another place, with different societal norms, such men could easily be shunned, denied employment, fired, chosen to be excluded from social association, etc, etc. In a hypothetical world, it shouldn't matter but in the real world it does at the individual level. Are some people courageous enough to buck society, popularity and convention? Sure, just like early advocates for what became feminism were. They took their lumps and pressed on. What we have today is the result and it's constantly changing and evolving.

 

If anything, IMO feminism in my generation opened my eyes to the ability of man (males) to also choose their path in life and not simply put their head down and 'be a man' and grind away like men historically have. We have choices too, and choices are our power.

[autumnnight]

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

 

I call BS. My ex and I both worked full time, and he basically refused to take time off so I had to. It had nothing to do with who the provider was. It was all about he didn't wanna cause that was the Mom's job.

[serial muse]

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

 

I certainly don't deny the statement. But then, I'm a feminist, and one who advocates for not adhering to rigidly defined gender roles just because. Thus, I posed the question.

 

I thought the point of the thread was to discuss how all of these previously defined roles - from math and science careers to pay equality to paying for dates to child care - should be questioned.

 

"Because that's how things are" when it comes to who provides more care -- and therefore whose career suffers more -- feels like a big old lazy cop-out to me, Keenly, given your apparent anger over child care and alimony decisions through the courts, not to mention who pays for dates. Can't really have it both ways; be the change you want to see. Take on 50% of child care, or more. Take the hit to your career because you love your kid and want that role. That's reality, and that's equality. Walking the walk, not talking the talk. You know?

Edited September 3, 2015 by serial muse

[RedRobin]

I also agree that me cooking is far more valuable in time than him paying on a date. My work knows no bounds and time is very precious. But for a great relationship, who's counting? Yes, women's 'roles' take far longer and are more involved than men's. Are we looking to change that then? Please, let me know when men become able to carry a child for 9months

 

 

9 months isn't a lifetime... but add up all of the things women are expected to do for 'free' that men are not expected to do in a relationship and doesn't help keep a roof over her head or food on the table, it adds up to a 'lifetime' pretty quick.

 

 

I'd be happy to start from scratch in any relationship and have a negotiation about where we are each spending our time, what we each find fulfilling or not... and not base it on what someone says I'm supposed to do because of my gender.

 

 

Yea, I'm looking to change the assumption that my role as a woman necessarily takes longer and is more involved than a man's... and if I can't change it, I won't do it at all. That's what a lot of women decide. A lot of women are deciding not to have children at all if it means the burden is mostly on them... and I don't blame them one bit.

 

 

Maybe the reason that a 'man doing manly things' doesn't make me feel all fuzzy is because I learned how to do a lot of those things myself (along with learning girly things too). What DOES make me feel all fuzzy is when a guy knows how to share, how to pitch in, how to do his part based on real equity... what's best for both of us and whatever family we may or may not have. Not something society told him he should do or makes his life cooshy at my expense.

[BlueIris]

"What society expects." I really really hope that everybody is able to NOT live their lives based on being a conformist, that is terribly depressing of a thought. "Without deviation progress is not possible." Frank Zappa said that! :bunny:

 

Exactly.

 

Sometimes people decide in our own heads what "society says" or "feminism means XYZ" (for instance), and then get stuck in our own thinking and don't see that we're free to choose our own path, or "society" doesn't really say that, or maybe something really good for us resulted from something that we might have believed was bad.

 

Feminism was a huge factor in changing the way we view families and parents of both gender. Single dads have been beneficiaries of that change as much as single moms and children have.

 

I suspect that as more and more men become primary or actively involved single parents taking time off and taking income hits for prioritizing parenting, the laws are going to change too- which will be great!

[Maleficent]

That's a good question. Probably because even in the age of feminism and equality, men are still expect by society and by women to be the providers... You can deny the statement, but that is how the real world plays out.

 

 

There is all this talk about equality and how we don't need gender roles but how does real life play out vs all the talk?

 

You do realize that the notion that men are the providers is a) patriarchist and b) another thing feminist would like to balance out, right?

 

With so many of yous thinking feminist is BS, you can't/won't have b so you're stuck with a.

[RedRobin]

There's a couple of posters here who are determined to hold onto their sexist beliefs no matter what.

 

Lots of women here have provided evidence... both scholarly and anectodal... but some men still like to complain about their supposed role and obligations in life as 'men' rather than do anything to change it. I guess mostly so they have an excuse to keep their sexist ideology that puts women beneath them in the pecking order.

 

The funniest part is that these guys blame 'feminists' for their problems, when the reality is that often its other men defending the status quo.

 

There's that old joke that women don't really dress up for men... they really dress up for each other. That's kind of how I feel about most men's behavior. They aren't doing it to impress women... it is mostly to impress other men.

 

Well, whenever some of you guys feel like dying later in life, and having fewer health issues, committing less crime, and not being a stranger to your kids, you can step off that treadmill anytime. Nothing is stopping you except your own fear. Fear that lots of women have been obliged to overcome, in their own way, simply to survive. Your choice.

 

As for me, I've been doing MY part to help my male partners make those kinds of choices as long as I've been an adult. I'm no hypocrite.

[Maleficent]

Why aren't more women taking on dangerous careers? Currently, over 90% of workplace deaths are men.

 

 

Women are not easily hired as police officers because it is believed they wouldn't be able to control an adult man.

Women are not easily hired as fire fighters because it is believed wouldn't be able to drag an adult body out of danger.

Women are not easily hired as construction workers because it is believe they wouldn't be as productive as their male co workers.

 

The list goes on.

 

Women are flat out told they can't do these jobs. Are we really shocked they don't bother applying?

It's easy to say 90% of workplace death are male when women aren't even welcome in these same jobs and women to men ratio is like 1 to 10...

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

got this answer from somewhere, spoke to another guy about me regarding if something is genetically wrong with me since I hate the role of having to make the first move, be the initiator as a guy, he said:

 

 

"Most men don't love to chase, especially not out of the block. It's scary.

 

Men chase and pursue because generally speaking, they have to, unless they're exceptionally high status. Most men overcome the fear because they are hornier than they are scared. They don't enjoy it.

 

The only guys who enjoy the chase are those who are confident that they can get 'most' girls and so enjoy doing something that's difficult because they anticipate success and the ego boost it provides.

 

It's a bit like asking 'do guys like lifting weights'. Most people who have lifted weights for a while find it hard and challenging, but feel good doing it. Most of those people, there first few times trying to life when they didn't know what to do were not enjoying it!

 

So don't think there's anything odd about not enjoying it, and frankly, you will likely never enjoy it unless you become a total player. But you can, like most guys, become 'good enough' at it to shift to relationships.

 

As for your genetics?

 

You're descended from alpha badasses. Generation after generation of them.

 

I don't think overcoming fear and going for it is natural for most guys though (and this applies to dating, fighting, etc. etc.). Traditionally most cultures socialized boys heavily to encourage 'bravery' and 'being a man' and tough. We do that far less today, so surprise surprise, we have grown men who are not 'tough' 'real men'. Just like we planned. Unfortunately real women seem to sexually choose real men just like they always did.

 

Time to get on that I guess.

 

 

Do you think that sums it up good, do most guys do it because they have to?

Maybe a better way to put it is that I don't have any instinct or biological need that drives me to "chase" women. I have to make a conscious effort to go after them to get what I want cause waiting for them to come after me is a sure fire way of me committing to a lot of waiting. My life would have been a hell of a lot easier if women would just drop in my lap so to speak and I would not miss chasing/hunting"

[Shining One]

I haven't studied the gender wage gap in detail, but I can share my admittedly limited management experience. I managed a small team of engineers and all of the men made more than the women of equal level. When I was put in charge of the team, I saw the disparity. Over time I understood why.

• Everyone showed up at work between 8:30 and 9:00 AM. All of the female engineers left at 5:00 PM every day with few exceptions. Most of the male engineers would stay until they finished whatever problem they were working on, often past 7:00 PM.
  
• The male engineers closed more cases than the female engineers (not surprising considering the extra hours put in).
  
• The job required periodic trips to our data center to install/remove gear or supervise a vendor service call. These occurred between 2:00 AM and 6:00 AM. Not once in my two years of managing that team did a female engineer volunteer for these tasks.
  

When it was time for annual raises, those who did more work and brought more value received a higher percentage raise. If I had seen the same work output from the women that I saw from the men, those raises would have been equal.

[Shining One]

The funniest part is that these guys blame 'feminists' for their problems, when the reality is that often its other men defending the status quo.

I have to agree with this on the paying for dates discussion. If a man chooses not to pay for a woman, she can simply move on to one of the many other men who are willing to pay. A united male front is needed to push this change.