Feminism and gender roles

[Keenly]

I certainly don't deny the statement. But then, I'm a feminist, and one who advocates for not adhering to rigidly defined gender roles just because. Thus, I posed the question.

 

I thought the point of the thread was to discuss how all of these previously defined roles - from math and science careers to pay equality to paying for dates to child care - should be questioned.

 

"Because that's how things are" when it comes to who provides more care -- and therefore whose career suffers more -- feels like a big old lazy cop-out to me, Keenly, given your apparent anger over child care and alimony decisions through the courts, not to mention who pays for dates. Can't really have it both ways; be the change you want to see. Take on 50% of child care, or more. Take the hit to your career because you love your kid and want that role. That's reality, and that's equality. Walking the walk, not talking the talk. You know?

 

No need to get all mad, all I did was state how the real world plays out. That's just how it is. I didn't create it. Just the way it goes.

 

Sucks when societal norms work against your gender, doesn't it?

[Keenly]

There is a lot of fairy tale "should land" talk in this thread. A lot that's being passed off as reality but that's not actually reality.

 

 

Go do a survey about how many women want a man that doesn't fit into masculine gender roles. Certainly a very small minority. Since men want women, we need to attract them, and we aren't going to do it by changing the masculine gender role.

 

 

Some of the things you guys are saying sound like fantasy lala rainbows and unicorns land. But it's not real life.

[lollipopspot]

You do realize that the notion that men are the providers is a) patriarchist and b) another thing feminist would like to balance out, right?

 

With so many of yous thinking feminist is BS, you can't/won't have b so you're stuck with a.

 

Exactly. Many people argue bitterly against the one movement that will free them from their hated gender role. So I think they don't hate it, it gives them power or the perception of it. They just don't like women who point that out.

 

got this answer from somewhere, spoke to another guy about me regarding if something is genetically wrong with me since I hate the role of having to make the first move, be the initiator as a guy, he said: [paraphrasing...blah blah blah...high status...blah...alpha badasses...blah blah...'real men.'...] My life would have been a hell of a lot easier if women would just drop in my lap so to speak

 

I tried to give direction in the first post (which incidentally I didn't create as a thread and wouldn't have, and if I did wouldn't have written it like that). Radical feminism is the only movement that I know of that sees gender as a social construct and says there's nothing inherently wrong with you if you don't want to act like what society says is "a man." In fact, there's probably something right with you if you don't numbly become what society expects you to be, good for you. If you're following your own instincts and integrity, why should you do anything else? Also unless you're born into something special, pretty much no one gets anything good just falling into their lap, so, woman or man, finding a good relationship takes effort.

Edited September 4, 2015 by lollipopspot

[truncated]

Women are not easily hired as police officers because it is believed they wouldn't be able to control an adult man.

Women are not easily hired as fire fighters because it is believed wouldn't be able to drag an adult body out of danger.

Women are not easily hired as construction workers because it is believe they wouldn't be as productive as their male co workers.

 

The list goes on.

 

Women are flat out told they can't do these jobs. Are we really shocked they don't bother applying?

It's easy to say 90% of workplace death are male when women aren't even welcome in these same jobs and women to men ratio is like 1 to 10...

 

 

Not sure where you live, but it certainly isn't in my country.

 

here, there are regulations and policies in place to ensure that women are hired into these professions.

 

Gender-Based Assessment - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

National Defence | Canadian Armed Forces | Backgrounder | Women in the Canadian Armed Forces

 

Firefighters - Service Canada

 

( there are fewer women firefighters partly because fewer apply to take fire fighting programs as their post secondary educational choice)

 

The most dangerous jobs ( And the top 10 most dangerous jobs are ? - The Globe and Mail ) here do have women in them.

 

Mind you, there may be a factor at play beyond " women aren't hired". Many of these jobs don't require post secondary education, and since more women than men here go to university/ college after high school, I'm not surprised they are seen at higher levels in these industries.

[autumnnight]

Many people argue bitterly against the one movement that will free them from their hated gender role.

 

You are assuming all of us hate our "gender role."

 

Personally, I don't WANT to be a man.

[serial muse]

No need to get all mad, all I did was state how the real world plays out. That's just how it is. I didn't create it. Just the way it goes.

 

Sucks when societal norms work against your gender, doesn't it?

 

Way to miss the point, or to deliberately ignore it. I will take your other posts here and elsewhere in this light, then. I think I see the real problem here. It's a damn shame.

[Keenly]

Way to miss the point, or to deliberately ignore it. I will take your other posts here and elsewhere in this light, then. I think I see the real problem here. It's a damn shame.

 

Most of your post was pretty wrong. I'm not a person who has a problem with the act of paying on dates.

 

 

I just think it's a little confusing how this thread says one thing but every thread regarding specific issues say another.

[mrldii]

I really hope you aren't suggesting here that women deserve a pay raise to compensate for the fact that they don't work as much.

 

Nope. I wasn't suggesting anything; I don't believe in retroactive reparations...I, like other feminists, are working towards future reparations.

 

Here, in the U.S., most employers have done away with "maternity leave" and have replaced it with "family leave"; this was done because it was sexist to allow women (perhaps) up to 4 months to 'bond with the baby' while leaving fathers completely out of the loop. It would be nice to see more men taking advantage of this benefit

 

AND derive the benefit of bonding with baby, too. A womb is only necessary when nurturing one's child pre-birth.

[mrldii]

...If anything, IMO feminism in my generation opened my eyes to the ability of man (males) to also choose their path in life and not simply put their head down and 'be a man' and grind away like men historically have. We have choices too, and choices are our power.

 

That's what feminism fought/fights for...the freedom of everyone to have choices in how they will live their lives.

 

I do not understand why so many appear to be so frightened and threatened by free choice over how to live their lives and would rather have it prescribed and proscribed for them by continuing to insist "That's just the way it is!!!"

 

[Keenly]

Way to miss the point, or to deliberately ignore it. I will take your other posts here and elsewhere in this light, then. I think I see the real problem here. It's a damn shame.

 

If you're going to send me a pm, you should at least clear out space in your inbox for a reply.

[lollipopspot]

You are assuming all of us hate our "gender role."

 

Personally, I don't WANT to be a man.

 

No, I'm actually not. I'm only referring to people who complain bitterly about their gender role, while covertly and overtly enforcing those roles and bashing feminism, the one movement that views gender roles as a construct.

 

It's not about making women into men. I'm not sure where you get that.

 

I personally think dictating a role that someone should fill in society based on the way one's genitals look at birth hinders personal and societal evolution. But I think that people like to be told who they have to be, and what they have to do - they often say they don't, but I see people in reality really cling to their gender constructs and "what it means to be a man/woman." You can have it. I'll just be myself. It's unfortunate that I have to deal with everyone else's **** about "what a woman is and should be" though, all the stereotypes.

 

It seems to me that you embrace your gender role though...until you don't:

 

I call BS. My ex and I both worked full time, and he basically refused to take time off so I had to. It had nothing to do with who the provider was. It was all about he didn't wanna cause that was the Mom's job.

[Keenly]

That's what feminism fought/fights for...the freedom of everyone to have choices in how they will live their lives.

 

I do not understand why so many appear to be so frightened and threatened by free choice over how to live their lives and would rather have it prescribed and proscribed for them by continuing to insist "That's just the way it is!!!"

 

 

You can live your life however you want. No one is saying you can't.

[mrldii]

You can live your life however you want. No one is saying you can't.

 

Actually, The Constitution of the United States says I can't, when it was specifically amended to grant its freedoms to everyone but women.

 

As a woman, the best I get is an Executive Order extending The Constitution's privileges to me. An Executive Order may be rescinded by any POTUS, male or female, when if they desire to do so and, in all reality, on a whim if they so choose.

 

No other segment of the U.S. population has this silent but deadly, "Behave...or we'll pull this vehicle over and take it back" hanging over their heads.

[Keenly]

Actually, The Constitution of the United States says I can't, when it was specifically amended to grant its freedoms to everyone but women.

 

As a woman, the best I get is an Executive Order extending The Constitution's privileges to me. An Executive Order may be rescinded by any POTUS, male or female, when if they desire to do so and, in all reality, on a whim if they so choose.

 

No other segment of the U.S. population has this silent but deadly, "Behave...or we'll pull this vehicle over and take it back" hanging over their heads.

What the hell are you talking about. The Constitution applies to you if you are an American citizen.

 

. You're not playing semantics with the term "men" are you? That's pretty much making up a problem that isn't even a thing.

[lollipopspot]

You're not playing semantics with the term "men" are you? That's pretty much making up a problem that isn't even a thing.

 

Not really. The ERA can't get passed. It's more than semantics.

[eye of the storm]

Mrldii and Kennly you are both right and both wrong. The Constitution did not give women the same rights, it had to be amended (the 19th) to provide women the same right to vote as men. Which if we were considered equal, it wouldn't have had to be amended. It wasn't an executive order and the POTUS cannot rescind it. But...it can be rescinded if they create another amendment.

 

I'll be honest, I haven't read most of this thread so if I repeat, I'm sorry. This is just my opinion

 

In a relationship, there should be discussion of who does what and what expectations are. And if both are in agreement, I don't care if they do "traditional" roles or have completely fluid roles. It is their relationship. I do believe there should be periodic rechecks to ensure that both are still happy with the status quo.

 

In work, if you can do the job, you should get paid the same as someone else doing the same job.

 

For the majority of my kids lives I worked "lesser" jobs than I could have because I had to be always available to walk away from my desk for anything they needed. My H stated that he couldn't leave work for stuff like that. We tried the "traditional" roles and I always felt like I was the less valued partner. (just my feeling)

 

I finally decided to embrace who I am and got better jobs that allowed my personality to shine. They are all in male dominated fields. Several times I have discovered that my pay was less than the guy sitting next to me. I should not have to fight to get paid the same when I am doing the same job just as good (if not better).

 

But unfortunately, the perception is I do less because I am female, I am less valuable, I have a man to support me while the men have people they are supporting. I have to fight all this while doing my job.

 

I am a feminist. I hate that I have to argue about being treated fairly. I hate that I have to deal with agencies who think they have the right to control my body. I hate being told I don't understand the ramifications of my choices.

 

I also hate that last year I had to pull a female aside because I caught her standing aside and letting the men work. Her excuse was she didn't know what they were doing. I pulled 3 men over and asked them if they knew what was going on, all said no but they were learning. I had to give her the facts of life regarding being a woman in a male dominated field. She could not show weakness. She had to work just as hard if not harder. And women in the field would be harder on her than the men would be because we refused to be painted with a lesser brush just because she didn't want to get her hands dirty. She didn't appreciate the comments and I was told some of the names she called me later. But within 6 months of her following my directives she noticed she was not being treated differently or excluded like she was before. She is now fully on board and fully integrated into her group. I would have pulled a male over about standing aside but it would have been a fast a$$ chewing and then over. I have to be harder on females because when they fall behind, I have to deal with the fallout.

 

I am grateful that I raised my son to view women as equal. His last GF told me that she loved being able to act naturally around him. She was able to show the full range of her intellect and was accepted. Which kind of saddened me that until my son she felt that she couldn't show what a brilliant mind she had and still be accepted by a partner.

 

All people should be treated equally. All people should pull their own weight. All people should have the same rights/responsibilities.

 

That being said, physically we are not made equally. I cannot lift 200 pounds over my head, the mountain who is currently throwing paperclips at me can. But I do not work in a job where it is required to do that either.

 

And I am not just a feminist, I believe in equality for everyone.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Do you think that sums it up good, do most guys do it because they have to?

NOBODY has to do what their society tells them that their gender HAS to do. That is BS. You don't have to do a freaking thing that men are "supposed" to do. You need to stop complaining about it and take a stand though. Either DON'T do the stuff and accept the consequences, or bite the bullet and DO the stuff and accept THOSE consequences.

 

You have to decide if the rewards (to YOU only) make it worth the struggle. Like if you want to make a pile of money, you might have to do alot of work you are not crazy about. Or just have less money and do a job you like. It's all your choice.

 

I realize it is harder for a person who really falls outside of their traditional gender role, but most of us have our crosses to bear and it's up to us in our life to figure out how to deal with them!

[lollipopspot]

NOBODY has to do what their society tells them that their gender HAS to do. That is BS. You don't have to do a freaking thing that men are "supposed" to do. You need to stop complaining about it and take a stand though. Either DON'T do the stuff and accept the consequences, or bite the bullet and DO the stuff and accept THOSE consequences.

 

You have to decide if the rewards (to YOU only) make it worth the struggle. Like if you want to make a pile of money, you might have to do alot of work you are not crazy about. Or just have less money and do a job you like. It's all your choice.

 

I realize it is harder for a person who really falls outside of their traditional gender role, but most of us have our crosses to bear and it's up to us in our life to figure out how to deal with them!

 

The problem is that he's being told, and believes, that gender roles are inherent. That he's SUPPOSED to chase after women like an alpha male (lol), and if he doesn't like that, there might be something "genetically wrong" with him.

 

In his own words:

spoke to another guy about me regarding if something is genetically wrong with me since I hate the role of having to make the first move, be the initiator as a guy

 

That's why this thread started. So I suggested that radical feminism is the only movement I know of that posits that gender roles are constructed, not inherent (and anything that might be inherent is on a bell curve and no one knows what that would look like anyway, without the strictures of constructed gender roles). And in fact - he'd be supported for following his own path and not trying to fit himself into gender roles that don't fit - good for him! Why should he have to follow some rule of behavior based on the shape of his genitals? Then all the feminist hating posts result...

Edited September 4, 2015 by lollipopspot

[autumnnight]

No, I'm actually not. I'm only referring to people who complain bitterly about their gender role, while covertly and overtly enforcing those roles and bashing feminism, the one movement that views gender roles as a construct.

 

It's not about making women into men. I'm not sure where you get that.

 

I personally think dictating a role that someone should fill in society based on the way one's genitals look at birth hinders personal and societal evolution. But I think that people like to be told who they have to be, and what they have to do - they often say they don't, but I see people in reality really cling to their gender constructs and "what it means to be a man/woman." You can have it. I'll just be myself. It's unfortunate that I have to deal with everyone else's **** about "what a woman is and should be" though, all the stereotypes.

 

It seems to me that you embrace your gender role though...until you don't:

 

I'll try to explain this. Was I annoyed by my husband's refusal to take a day off when junior was puking? Yes. Does that mean I do not embrace my "role" as an equal partner and woman? No.

 

I do not think it is actually THAT hard to understand that I can embrace my feminine role while still being annoyed when he didn't help.

 

The accusation was a flimsy stretch at best.

 

I will point out, however, that part of feminism was supposed to be about women banding together, and yet some of the women on here are quicker on the aggressive draw with other women than they are men.

 

Kind of like what I referred to earlier about some modern feminists wanting all women to make the choices they make.

[lollipopspot]

I'll try to explain this. Was I annoyed by my husband's refusal to take a day off when junior was puking? Yes. Does that mean I do not embrace my "role" as an equal partner and woman? No.

 

I do not think it is actually THAT hard to understand that I can embrace my feminine role while still being annoyed when he didn't help.

 

The accusation was a flimsy stretch at best.

 

When your guy has it stuck in his head that only moms are supposed take time off work to take care of their kids, as some kind of inherent gender role, he's clearly operating under an assumption of "what women/moms should be." You didn't seem to like that. Hence, sometimes you seem to have a problem with expected gender roles - at least when expressed by the guy you married. I'm not sure why that's controversial? That's the way you framed it.

 

I will point out, however, that part of feminism was supposed to be about women banding together, and yet some of the women on here are quicker on the aggressive draw with other women than they are men.

 

Feminism does not require that women agree on everything or are in lockstep on all feelings - in fact that would be a rather stereotypical expectation. I'm not that interested in the social aspects of political movements. That's always where people get petty and butt hurt and movements fall apart. I'm interested in the intellectual aspects and political change and evolution. I don't need to band together "as women" per se. Men can be feminists too. Some women can be worse feminists than men.

 

Kind of like what I referred to earlier about some modern feminists wanting all women to make the choices they make.

 

Huh? People should do what they want. That's exactly the point. The guy who posted here should make his OWN choices, not do what society expects of him because of his gender.

[autumnnight]

When your guy has it stuck in his head that only moms are supposed take time off work to take care of their kids, as some kind of inherent gender role, he's clearly operating under an assumption of "what women/moms should be." You didn't seem to like that. Hence, sometimes you seem to have a problem with expected gender roles - at least when expressed by the guy you married. I'm not sure why that's controversial? That's the way you framed it.

 

That's the way YOU framed it.

[eye of the storm]

If you do not like to make the first move with a prospective partner, then don't. Neither women or men should act in a way that makes them uncomfortable. But, you do have to take the consequences of that choice where as the people you are interested in may not want to make a move either so in the end neither of you get a chance to see if it would work out.

 

We all have viewpoints on how we think we and others should act.

 

I support others rights to think/feel differently than I do as long as their thought and feelings do not cause them to act in a way that infringes my rights.

 

For example, my mother does not like my job. It is occasionally dangerous. She called my boss and told him that as a woman I should not be placed in such situations... I was almost fired over that. Fortunately, my boss's boss has a mother just like mine and he told me to reel her in or else. My mother's feelings are hers to feel. And I support her in that. But she did not have the right to try to force me into compliance with her viewpoints.

[lollipopspot]

That's the way YOU framed it.

 

Okay

 

It was all about he didn't wanna cause that was the Mom's job.

 

......

[lollipopspot]

This is insulting to women who really are suffering, raped, brutalized and even killed due to their gender and lack of rights / freedom. We are not Iraq, Pakistan, India, many countries in Africa or another 3rd world country and it not even close!

 

Um, when women are raped in this country too it's due to their gender. As a rule those rapists aren't out raping other men - they target women because they're women. And it's a very sizable number of women who are sexually assaulted.

 

The only reason rape isn't considered a hate crime against women is because there are too many rapes and it's a normalized part of being female in this country. Women grow up to be cautious of sexual assault because it's a reality everywhere.

[autumnnight]

Okay

 

 

 

......

 

 

You win. Feel better?

 

Yeesh