Feminism and gender roles

[Maleficent]

Not sure where you live, but it certainly isn't in my country.

 

here, there are regulations and policies in place to ensure that women are hired into these professions.

 

Gender-Based Assessment - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

National Defence | Canadian Armed Forces | Backgrounder | Women in the Canadian Armed Forces

 

Firefighters - Service Canada

 

( there are fewer women firefighters partly because fewer apply to take fire fighting programs as their post secondary educational choice)

 

The most dangerous jobs ( And the top 10 most dangerous jobs are ? - The Globe and Mail ) here do have women in them.

 

Mind you, there may be a factor at play beyond " women aren't hired". Many of these jobs don't require post secondary education, and since more women than men here go to university/ college after high school, I'm not surprised they are seen at higher levels in these industries.

 

I said women are not easily hired. Not that they were never hired. Yes there are regulations in place to allow women in these jobs but the fact is women are believed to be not strong enough for some jobs (like police officers and firefighters)

I don't know about you but the only time I see a woman on a construction site, she is directing traffic.

[Maleficent]

There is a lot of fairy tale "should land" talk in this thread. A lot that's being passed off as reality but that's not actually reality.

 

 

Go do a survey about how many women want a man that doesn't fit into masculine gender roles. Certainly a very small minority. Since men want women, we need to attract them, and we aren't going to do it by changing the masculine gender role.

 

 

Some of the things you guys are saying sound like fantasy lala rainbows and unicorns land. But it's not real life.

 

First of all, you are assuming that the majority of women will refuse to go out with a man because he wants to split the cost of the date AND you are assuming that these women are feminists and believe in equality...

 

The fact is men decided to continue this traditional notion for fear of not getting a girlfriend.

Please explain to me the train of thought that led this to being feminism's fault?

 

As I mentioned before, feminists originally denied the social role that was imposed on them by society at a heavy price. Do you think men wanted to marry those women?

 

Men have the possibility of doing the same thing today but some decided not to because they might lose opportunities of getting laid - well that's on men.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

If you do not like to make the first move with a prospective partner, then don't. Neither women or men should act in a way that makes them uncomfortable. But, you do have to take the consequences of that choice where as the people you are interested in may not want to make a move either so in the end neither of you get a chance to see if it would work out.

 

We all have viewpoints on how we think we and others should act.

 

I support others rights to think/feel differently than I do as long as their thought and feelings do not cause them to act in a way that infringes my rights.

 

For example, my mother does not like my job. It is occasionally dangerous. She called my boss and told him that as a woman I should not be placed in such situations... I was almost fired over that. Fortunately, my boss's boss has a mother just like mine and he told me to reel her in or else. My mother's feelings are hers to feel. And I support her in that. But she did not have the right to try to force me into compliance with her viewpoints.

Well my mindset is I do it because I have to not because I want to, not have to in the sense that someone is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to do it, because I know I could never hold my breath for a girl to approach me

[camillalev]

<Moderation moved four posts from a current event thread to a more appropriate venue for discussing gender roles and changes>

 

Oh, I agree with you. In fact, this explains the gender pay gap perfectly, regardless of industry. Companies pay people based on their value. Feminists just don't talk about the modeling industry, because men are paid far less, because their value is far less.

 

Feminists aren't looking at the reasons why women on average make less money than men, they are just assuming sexism, because sexism means they still have a purpose. They don't want to talk about how women work fewer hours, call out sick more often, take more vacations, or spend less time in the workforce. They want to blame the patriarchy. They want to [] call out of work (wonder why they get paid less?) and march around hatin' on men. Meanwhile, and thankfully so, most women know that feminists are full of crap.

 

 

Please point out the research the proves women take more vacations, take fewer hours and call out more sick days than men. women are NOT sitting around taking vacations days while men are at work."most women that feminists are full of crap" actually most women I know are feminists and, support feminist beliefs and think no such thing of feminism. Many women work very long hours, longer hours than their male counterparts do so because they have to prove themselves. People like you are one of the reasons the feminist movement still exist.

Edited April 12, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Moved this and following three posts

[camillalev]

Erased after moderator post.

 

Sexism has not been erased. If it has, then please explain the many groups within the us the exist because they believe women exist for the pleasure of men. There are groups(return of kings) that believe in 'legal rape' of women because we exist for male pleasure. if sexism were eradicated this group would not exist at all.

 

Feminist and women in general fight against people like this and if it werent for feminist we as women wouldnt have the rights we have today.

 

This is the same argument people have about racism, some think it doesnt exist but if it didnt then why do we still have the KKK in the US. And people in the police force today are members of the KKK. Wake up people.

[camillalev]

The more laughable part is Id bet that more Viagra is prescribed due to pressure from women that urge their men to take it...If you look at the commercials for it, its mostly women pitching it and telling other women to "have the talk" to their SO...

 

TFY

 

The hilarious thing about you pointing this out is, that as someone that works in advertising, women are NOT in charge of what is put in commercials. Most senior level people that are in charge of what goes into advertising are men. Lol women have no control over that. Want to complain about the content of advertising for viagra? Blame men. They put it in there because they think its what women want.

 

Jesus people, if you are going to put the onus on women, do some research on what what women actually have some say or control over. Most women in advertising WISH they had the amount of influence so they could make great ads that speak to people. No, its all men concerned about their bottom line.

[somanymistakes]

The moderators apparently moved these posts here rather than delete them. You may as well post some links.

 

The research is also quite easy to find demonstrating cases where identical performance is handed in and the performance with a female name attached to it is evaluated much more harshly and not rewarded. Exact. Same. Performance.

 

I have done a lot of looking into the situation and have never seen research talking about women taking more "vacations". I have seen some records showing women working fewer hours and spending less time in the workforce because they are expected to be the primary carer for a child, and that this does affect the pay gap. This isn't totally a company's fault, since in that case the woman simply isn't there as much, so without them bending over extra to accommodate her she will naturally fall behind.

 

"They want to blame the patriarchy" What do you think the patriarchy MEANS, exactly? It doesn't mean evil men sitting around on skull thrones twirling their mustaches plotting how to keep women down (although yes, I have met one or two college feminists who seem to think that way). It's about overall societal pressures and imbalances. Women perpetuate patriarchy, not just men. Men suffer from patriarchy, not just women.

 

Women being expected to stay home and tend the kids IS an example of how patriarchy affects society.

[BC1980]

Women being expected to stay home and tend the kids IS an example of how patriarchy affects society.

 

I have a lot of female friends who want to stay home and raise their kids but can't because they need the money. Do you think women might be more naturally inclined to want to stay home after they have kids? I never considered it until I got to an age where all my friends had kids. Then, I started noticing a lot of them had problems working full time and raising a family. My mom went into teaching because she wanted to be there when we got home from school and during the summer. I'm glad we have choices, but I've found it interesting that so many women I know want to stay home and take care of their kids. I didn't anticipate that.

[somanymistakes]

I have a lot of female friends who want to stay home and raise their kids but can't because they need the money. Do you think women might be more naturally inclined to want to stay home after they have kids? I never considered it until I got to an age where all my friends had kids. Then, I started noticing a lot of them had problems working full time and raising a family. My mom went into teaching because she wanted to be there when we got home from school and during the summer. I'm glad we have choices, but I've found it interesting that so many women I know want to stay home and take care of their kids. I didn't anticipate that.

 

It's so complicated, it's hard for me to come up with a good answer for that, really.

 

A lot of women would love to stay home and look after the kids and not work at all, if they could afford to. I have an old schoolmate who got her university degree, joined the military, served a couple of years, got married, and then quit to be a fulltime mom and is perfectly happy that way. Some men would like to do that too, but they often face scorn if they say they want this, and are considered to be weak, lazy, gay, or even a pedophile if they say they want to look after the house and kids. Many people know *a* stay-at-home dad, but not usually more than one. It's still rare. And there's lots of guys who do it talk about the stigma they face, the difficulty in finding support groups, and the way a lot of mothers give them the stink-eye when they show up at playgrounds.

 

Any sort of sexism is always double-edged because if you treat one sex differently than the other.. you're automatically treating them both differently, and both sides might sometimes find that unfair.

 

A lot of women really care about their careers and don't, under any circumstances, want to stop working, even if they have kids and even if they can afford to do otherwise. IIRC we had a LS poster a while back who was fighting with her husband because he wanted her to stop working now that he'd gotten a raise and could afford to maintain her as a stay-at-home mom. But that wasn't what she wanted to be. Or, for a different angle, I have an acquaintance who's a well-paid artist with a very busy schedule and she was really unhappy when she got accidentally pregnant. She kept the baby but as soon as it was born she hired someone to be a fulltime carer and went right back to drawing. She says she'll spend more time with the child when it's older (i can't remember if it was a boy or girl, sorry) but she's totally disinterested in babies and just wants to draw. I went to school with a girl who now has a very demanding job in New York and has somehow managed to pop out three kids and keep up with them, but she always had manic energy levels when we were in school so maybe juggling everything at once just balances out for her.

 

And sure, I also know people who dial back their work responsibilities so they can be home for the kids after school, and it usually seems to be women who do this. Is it because women are more inclined that way, more connected to their children through hormones and all? Is it because women are expected to be that way so if both parents have roughly equal work prospects they will naturally push for it to be the woman who gives up more of her job for the family? Is it because other pressures lead to women generally getting less well-paid jobs so it's almost always easiest for the wife to be the one who works less and stays with the family more? All of these things probably have some effect, it's way too complicated to point to a factor and say "it's definitely this".

 

And of course, even if it turns out that women overall are 25% more likely to want to stay home with the kids than men are... or even 75% more likely... it still isn't all women or all men who feel that way, and blanket expectations can still cause trouble.

 

Does that make any sense?

[BC1980]

And sure, I also know people who dial back their work responsibilities so they can be home for the kids after school, and it usually seems to be women who do this. Is it because women are more inclined that way, more connected to their children through hormones and all? Is it because women are expected to be that way so if both parents have roughly equal work prospects they will naturally push for it to be the woman who gives up more of her job for the family? Is it because other pressures lead to women generally getting less well-paid jobs so it's almost always easiest for the wife to be the one who works less and stays with the family more? All of these things probably have some effect, it's way too complicated to point to a factor and say "it's definitely this".

 

I think that's the heart of the matter. Is gender completely a social construct? In my 20s, I would have said yes. But now, I feel that it's more biological. I think we have male and female brains that are wired differently. Pretty much all of my friends with kids say that things changed a lot when they had kids. They had careers and suddenly priorities changed. I have friends who works full time as a counselor, and she loves her job. But she says that all day long, she wants to be with her children. She can't reconcile both roles. I know several moms who feel the same way. I do have one friend who works 2-3 days a week, and she doesn't want to stay home. She is the outlier though.

 

A few months ago, I saw something on Twitter about how the trans movement gives support to the idea that gender is biology. I had never thought of that before, but it made perfect sense. If gender is completely a social construct, trans people shouldn't need to transition. They could relearn how to be a woman or a man. But I think the trans movement does support the idea that we have male and female brains, and it's largely biology that influences gender. I was actually reading in a pediatric textbook for a class I'm in that current research suggests that the endocrine system plays a role in deciding gender in utero.

[somanymistakes]

A few months ago, I saw something on Twitter about how the trans movement gives support to the idea that gender is biology. I had never thought of that before, but it made perfect sense. If gender is completely a social construct, trans people shouldn't need to transition. They could relearn how to be a woman or a man. But I think the trans movement does support the idea that we have male and female brains, and it's largely biology that influences gender. I was actually reading in a pediatric textbook for a class I'm in that current research suggests that the endocrine system plays a role in deciding gender in utero.

 

IIRC when they've done studies on trans people their brains tended to look more similar to the sex they said they were rather than the one they were assigned at birth, but I don't remember if those were brains being checked from people who had gone through the whole hormone process or not. Certainly the big batch of hormones people take to do a transition has a major effect on their body and emotional state, so I'd expect that to have some impact on the brain as well.

 

As for hormones in utero, if I recall correctly stuff I read a long time ago, it as that female babies who were exposed to unusually high concentrations of male hormones in the womb were noticeably more likely to have 'masculine' interests (big trucks, etc) and to become lesbians when they grew up.

 

But even then it's "more likely", not "always".

 

Me personally I don't think I'm particularly feminine or masculine but I'm not into the whole "non binary" thing either, I just don't care much. I'm female. Sometimes I wear a dress, usually I don't. I don't dislike dressing up, I just usually can't be bothered. Don't care about shoes or purses or makeup. I like other people's kids well enough but I'm not in a huge rush to have any myself. Maybe I will someday, maybe I won't. Can't cook, hate housework. I'm pretty much striking out when it comes to "traditional feminine", but I'm definitely not "traditional masculine" either, unless you count liking computers and looking at online porn as masculine.

[camillalev]

I think that's the heart of the matter. Is gender completely a social construct? In my 20s, I would have said yes. But now, I feel that it's more biological. I think we have male and female brains that are wired differently. Pretty much all of my friends with kids say that things changed a lot when they had kids. They had careers and suddenly priorities changed. I have friends who works full time as a counselor, and she loves her job. But she says that all day long, she wants to be with her children. She can't reconcile both roles. I know several moms who feel the same way. I do have one friend who works 2-3 days a week, and she doesn't want to stay home. She is the outlier though.

 

Eh, its difficult to separate biology and society. Nature vs nuture. Women are groomed and messaged since birth that we should tend to children(how many baby dolls and kitchen sets did many of us girls have as kids, or at least marketed to us). Not to mention societal expectation as we get older. Men are more apt to work because I dont think most if any men I know even consider being a SAHD even an option. TBH I dont think any male I know grew up with even an inkling that they could do that or take a break from their career to take care of the kids. That's society at work.

 

I know that being male or female doesnt influence being a great parent. I think women get a lot of the praise for being mothers, that there's nothing like a mother's love or that a mothers love is 10x that of a fathers love(I think louie ck recently said something like that), which I disagree with. After I was born my father would be driving to work and then "see my face in the clouds" and then turn right back around to be with me.

 

Not to mention that are thousands/millions of women that love to work because they're more than just reproductive pods. Their passions and work fulfills them in a way children never could. One woman is a professional writer/author and she said she would never be able to be the mother, wife, or friend that she is if it werent for being able to write, sustain herself through her writing and fully explore that side of her. She is able to be who she is because she can nourish herself in that way. When her second daughter was a few years old she went away for a month on a writers retreat by herself to kick start a book. She said she felt guilt, worry that they would be ok, etc etc but when she came back they were ecstatic to see her and within 10 minutes it was as if she never left. She's not only able to care for herself and her passions but she's also a role model to her daughters, that women can and should explore what matters to them(and that it doesnt have to come at the expense of children). Shes only one example of many women who want to do more than sit at home

 

If women are biologically wired to care for children, then it would make sense that in the majority of cases women should get custody of children because women are naturally better caretakers than men are. However we know that is not true. There are many fantastic fathers. some are better at taking care of their kids than the mothers are. People being wired to be caretakers is individual, not gender-based. There are many women that are horrible mothers and probably should have never had kids in the first place.

 

SAHFs are on the rise. I think many more men would choose being one if we had the society to support that. Maternity leave for men, no social stigma or shame attached to being one, etc.

Edited May 6, 2017 by camillalev