As Christians should we be involved in ...

July 14, 2015

Many on LS have said that Christians/religion needs to stay out of politics. I've been down this road and have debated it a few times. I think you said something similar- I hear it a lot, so maybe not you or I misread you.

I misread you AN and found where I made that mistake. My sincere apologies ... I think I confused your views about Christians with WG's views which actually are a desire for religion not to be in anything really, but she said politics... I respect the fact that she doesn't pick and choose religion, she doesn't like any of them and says it openly.

Anyway, please forgive me:o

July 14, 2015

Radical post love, hope I can give thoughtful responses back

You had me up to the 'progressive'... that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

There's a thread going on Josh Duggar right now. While what he did was apprehensible, I think it was handled in the right manor... based on his confession, I think mercy is the key in this case.
The priest thing in the Catholic Church has been dealt with and the Catholic faith has paid a heavy price for a few. Should forgiveness enter in at this point?
I would like to research more concerning divorce rates among Christians. I know my divorces had to do with adultery and pornography... basically the secular world got in there and destroyed the marriages.

Who knows, time will tell. I believe this country will see revival, and i don't believe there is time to straighten out the severe mess (sin) plaguing this country (unless God majorly intervenes). I strongly believe the Rapture could take place anytime now... the stage is completely set. God has His Eye/timelime set for/on the Jewish people... watch them, read Bible Prophecy, and that will tell you a lot as to where we are at concerning the Tribulation Period.

The Supremes are not following the Constitution... not by a long shot.

I legitimately do not even know where to begin. You start with saying "progressive" leaves a bad tastes in your mouth. Meaning as soon as someone mentions a progressive idea you judge and assume they are not your kind of person to even hear out. I've posted multiple replies in this thread, directly addressing yours and others points and asking kindly if you would explain your thought process on certain issues and posed questions to evoke thought from you. They were all glazed over or ignored and each reply that's followed either went off on a tangent about what Jesues "really meant" or simply was given the "I believe Christianity is the one true belief system and won't accept anything else whatsoever if they don't share the same opinion. The hypocracy is unreal.

Secondly to address your comment on Josh Duggar and the catholic priests actions. I would love to see if you had the same "oh that's awful yea but they seem sorry and were punished a little "mercy" mindset if Obama/atheist/non Christian politician was accused of the same things. There would be riots in the streets. Seriously....Child molesters and rapists who operated under immunity for centuries... And you summed it up in barely two sentences and suggest we forgive/forget and move on. But abortion... Whoa whoa whoa...those people are disgusting and it's an atrocity? I do not understand how religious people like yourself can pick and choose which "sins" are worth fighting for tooth and nail, and how others (which are just as horrible if not worse) aren't a priority or even a blip on the radar for you.

You also mentioned you've been divorced, correct me if I read your comment incorrectly. Are all sins equal? I'm going to assume that by your strong religious conservative stance that you are opposed to gay marriage. You however and anyone else who has been divorced has directly disgraced the "sanctity of marriage, and the sacred vows and oaths you took before God". You also use the word "secular" more than anyone I've ever debated with. What is is about that word that you feel accurately depicts the rest of society who is not Christian? And did you really blame society for your partners adultery and pornography?!? I cannot follow how you condemn those in office and say that the world is coming to an end, yet will simply blame "non believers" for the same sins/indiscretions/mistakes that have occurred in your life or the lives of other Christians.

Additionally, please point out which freedoms you have had taken away from you in the last 20 years. Specifically, not just saying "if we continue down this road, we are doomed". Would love to know what in your life has been negatively affected to the point where it changes your quality of life day to day/ or head after year.

You believe the rapture is definitely going to occur? A simply Google search can show you all the "believers" like David Koresh that were "positive" that the "end was coming". Didn't work out too well for them. The fact of the matter is that no matter what I say or present to you or any other devoutly religious person that's in this thread.... You will not take take of my views, opinions, or suggestions of compromise to heart or even issue the statement of "I can understand where you are coming from, my upbringing and beliefs are just different". I can understand where you are coming from. I attended Catholic school for the first 18 years of my life, so I know how certain people find solace in the faith in God/higher powers. But the fact that we clearly do not see eye to eye on anything here should prove to you that injecting religion into our government would only split this country apart permanently.

You might think times are terrible. I see the problems we think we have as first world problems. Go to a 3rd world country like Haiti and then tell me that America is doomed. We have grown faster and advanced beyond people's wildest expectations since our independence. Now all of a sudden you think it's time for us to become a Christian nation? I'm so glad that that will never happen.

July 14, 2015

As an example, let's say for some reason god declared rock paper scissors to be a sin.

Let's also say I like to play rock paper scissors in my spare time. As an atheist, it doesn't bother me that it's considered a sin because that's not the way I choose to live my life.
Do the religious people get to make a law that say I can't play rock paper scissors and should be legally punished for it? I don't think they should be allowed to do that. To mandate my activities or behavior in the name of their doctrine. But that's how people vote. We talk about love and caring for your fellow man and everything that Christianity supposedly stands for, but in my experience it comes down to one thing. Compliance.

I applaud everything you've said. Truly well spoken and rational. The Rock Paper Scissors example is perfect to illustrate how biased a religious person can be when it comes to voting. I believe her/his reply was "if Rock Paper Scissors put people at hard then yes I would be against it and vote to have it be illegal". Something along those lines. Anyone with common sense and a mind of their own can see that literally Rock Paper Scissors is absurd to make illegal. Yet she was actually already putting up a defense as to Why she believed it should be.

My brain legitimately hurts from reading some of this. Why can't we all come to an understanding : that religious, or agnostic, or atheist... Regardless of your beliefs, we can all agree that the basic idea is to treaat others kindly, look out for one another, take care of yourself, your family, and those less fortunate, and to continue to build on the communities and world we live in? Anything else is irrelevant.

I never understand how devout believers in God think that somehow they are the only ones who truly knows the actual intentions of Jesus and God. That in all this time on earth, alllll the other religions and beliefs that have come and gone, all the uncertainty behind the factual accuracy of anything that took place over a thousand years ago, that EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, and they will be not only rewarded with a mansion in heaven... But that is is their responsibility to point out why anyone who believes otherwise is doomed and should repent.

July 14, 2015

So what exactly do you want from her, Qboro?

July 14, 2015

I legitimately do not even know where to begin.

Back atcha!

You start with saying "progressive" leaves a bad tastes in your mouth. Meaning as soon as someone mentions a progressive idea you judge and assume they are not your kind of person to even hear out. I've posted multiple replies in this thread, directly addressing yours and others points and asking kindly if you would explain your thought process on certain issues and posed questions to evoke thought from you. They were all glazed over or ignored and each reply that's followed either went off on a tangent about what Jesues "really meant" or simply was given the "I believe Christianity is the one true belief system and won't accept anything else whatsoever if they don't share the same opinion. The hypocracy is unreal.

Secondly to address your comment on Josh Duggar and the catholic priests actions. I would love to see if you had the same "oh that's awful yea but they seem sorry and were punished a little "mercy" mindset if Obama/atheist/non Christian politician was accused of the same things. There would be riots in the streets. Seriously....Child molesters and rapists who operated under immunity for centuries... And you summed it up in barely two sentences and suggest we forgive/forget and move on. But abortion... Whoa whoa whoa...those people are disgusting and it's an atrocity? I do not understand how religious people like yourself can pick and choose which "sins" are worth fighting for tooth and nail, and how others (which are just as horrible if not worse) aren't a priority or even a blip on the radar for you.

You also mentioned you've been divorced, correct me if I read your comment incorrectly. Are all sins equal? I'm going to assume that by your strong religious conservative stance that you are opposed to gay marriage. You however and anyone else who has been divorced has directly disgraced the "sanctity of marriage, and the sacred vows and oaths you took before God". You also use the word "secular" more than anyone I've ever debated with. What is is about that word that you feel accurately depicts the rest of society who is not Christian? And did you really blame society for your partners adultery and pornography?!? I cannot follow how you condemn those in office and say that the world is coming to an end, yet will simply blame "non believers" for the same sins/indiscretions/mistakes that have occurred in your life or the lives of other Christians.

Additionally, please point out which freedoms you have had taken away from you in the last 20 years. Specifically, not just saying "if we continue down this road, we are doomed". Would love to know what in your life has been negatively affected to the point where it changes your quality of life day to day/ or head after year.

You believe the rapture is definitely going to occur? A simply Google search can show you all the "believers" like David Koresh that were "positive" that the "end was coming". Didn't work out too well for them. The fact of the matter is that no matter what I say or present to you or any other devoutly religious person that's in this thread.... You will not take take of my views, opinions, or suggestions of compromise to heart or even issue the statement of "I can understand where you are coming from, my upbringing and beliefs are just different". I can understand where you are coming from. I attended Catholic school for the first 18 years of my life, so I know how certain people find solace in the faith in God/higher powers. But the fact that we clearly do not see eye to eye on anything here should prove to you that injecting religion into our government would only split this country apart permanently.

You might think times are terrible. I see the problems we think we have as first world problems. Go to a 3rd world country like Haiti and then tell me that America is doomed. We have grown faster and advanced beyond people's wildest expectations since our independence. Now all of a sudden you think it's time for us to become a Christian nation? I'm so glad that that will never happen.

First, apologies for not responding to past posts... I sincerely mean that... I also am sincere about 98% of your post to me is purely me on the defensive and I'm not in the mood to be defensive today, although respect your opinion.

July 14, 2015

So what exactly do you want from her, Qboro?

I want to try and understand how she has such extremely drastic negative views on everything that's non Christian related. When you break down what she's said that is the basic impression I get out of it. That "the decline and soon to be demise of America is due to the liberal progressive population who are stealing away my freedoms and going against what God truly wants" I fail to see the rational behind that. The original post posed a question on whether or not Christians should be more involved in politics. The 2nd post on the thread replied with "The enemy hates communication from Gods people and wishes to quiet us to promote their agenda". That's the mentality that religion brings to the table. It's "them vs us", "we are good and we know we are because God says so and everyone else is a detriment to society"

This is why our founding fathers specifically separated church and state. Now I want to make sure I'm clear when I say that I'm not advocating for people to give up their religious beliefs or stop promoting it, going to church, etc. However, combining religion into politics and law making would do drastically more harm than anything else. We can't even discuss it in a forum without it getting a bit tense. If you read my first replies I did my best to remain respectful to the religious people's posts and politely asked for an explanation so i could try to further understand in hopes that there would be some middle ground I could find. I was met with a rude/sarcastic "you're so adorable Hun" as if to imply her Godly lifestyle couldn't be bothered with such a naive being.

Religion will always exist as long as their are humans and problems in the world. So if we agree on that point then we can agree also that religion is not being threatened or pushed out of America in any way. The population in this country is so diverse and that's the beauty of America and why people risk their lives for the opportunity to come here for chance at a better life. It's simply non sensical to think that with all the varying cultures, backgrounds, religions, races, etc in the USA that we should make Christianity the umbrella religion of us as U.S. Citizens. That would be like a vegetarian making everyone else at a restaurant eat only salads despite the fact that none of them have the same dietary stance that she does, but she believes it's better for you and you just need to go along with it. Sorry, they're allowed to eat their steak, and chicken, and fish, or not eat at all if they wanted to. If she didn't say anything about it would anyone in the restaurant be affected negatively? No... Would she as a vegetarian be forced to stop following her diet of greens? No.... There is no upside to this and even more importantly there is no possible way to suddenly after 350 years of independence and being a country that allows individuals the freedom to follow any religion or belief structure they choose.... To do a complete 180 and now say "we are going to use Christianity as a basis to our government and implement laws and policies that follow the teachings of The Bible.

And the abortion topic is such a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes this country function. If that is what is most important to her in an election than its no wonder the candidate pool we have is less than stellar to say the least. And if people are naive enough to think that abortions weren't being perfomed by the church since the beginning of Christianity then i can't have an adult conversation with them.... The clergy in the Middle Ages were the ones who allowed "exceptions" for the kings and royals who got a woman pregnant out of wedlock or below their class structure. So let's stop with the high and mighty idea that this is something new that liberal women introduced. It's not

July 14, 2015

I want to try and understand how she has such extremely drastic negative views on everything that's non Christian related. When you break down what she's said that is the basic impression I get out of it. That "the decline and soon to be demise of America is due to the liberal progressive population who are stealing away my freedoms and going against what God truly wants" I fail to see the rational behind that. The original post posed a question on whether or not Christians should be more involved in politics. The 2nd post on the thread replied with "The enemy hates communication from Gods people and wishes to quiet us to promote their agenda". That's the mentality that religion brings to the table. It's "them vs us", "we are good and we know we are because God says so and everyone else is a detriment to society"

This is why our founding fathers specifically separated church and state. Now I want to make sure I'm clear when I say that I'm not advocating for people to give up their religious beliefs or stop promoting it, going to church, etc. However, combining religion into politics and law making would do drastically more harm than anything else. We can't even discuss it in a forum without it getting a bit tense. If you read my first replies I did my best to remain respectful to the religious people's posts and politely asked for an explanation so i could try to further understand in hopes that there would be some middle ground I could find. I was met with a rude/sarcastic "you're so adorable Hun" as if to imply her Godly lifestyle couldn't be bothered with such a naive being.

Religion will always exist as long as their are humans and problems in the world. So if we agree on that point then we can agree also that religion is not being threatened or pushed out of America in any way. The population in this country is so diverse and that's the beauty of America and why people risk their lives for the opportunity to come here for chance at a better life. It's simply non sensical to think that with all the varying cultures, backgrounds, religions, races, etc in the USA that we should make Christianity the umbrella religion of us as U.S. Citizens. That would be like a vegetarian making everyone else at a restaurant eat only salads despite the fact that none of them have the same dietary stance that she does, but she believes it's better for you and you just need to go along with it. Sorry, they're allowed to eat their steak, and chicken, and fish, or not eat at all if they wanted to. If she didn't say anything about it would anyone in the restaurant be affected negatively? No... Would she as a vegetarian be forced to stop following her diet of greens? No.... There is no upside to this and even more importantly there is no possible way to suddenly after 350 years of independence and being a country that allows individuals the freedom to follow any religion or belief structure they choose.... To do a complete 180 and now say "we are going to use Christianity as a basis to our government and implement laws and policies that follow the teachings of The Bible.

And the abortion topic is such a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes this country function. If that is what is most important to her in an election than its no wonder the candidate pool we have is less than stellar to say the least. And if people are naive enough to think that abortions weren't being perfomed by the church since the beginning of Christianity then i can't have an adult conversation with them.... The clergy in the Middle Ages were the ones who allowed "exceptions" for the kings and royals who got a woman pregnant out of wedlock or below their class structure. So let's stop with the high and mighty idea that this is something new that liberal women introduced. It's not

Q, you put wayyyy to much in one post for my brain to handle... possibly in the morning I could address all of these issues, but tonight...wow

Hey, FTR, you thought I was being sarcastic when I said you were adorable? I wasn't, and was serious. I can 'picture' a person by the way they write and I think the way you write is adorable. That's me, that's how I am...

July 14, 2015

I was met with a rude/sarcastic "you're so adorable Hun" as if to imply her Godly lifestyle couldn't be bothered with such a naive being.

I'm almost positive that a comment like that was meant in a genuine way (I'm not sure, the op of the comment can clarify). edit: oops! she did

Forum discussions can be frustrating sometimes, but there are so many other topics to post about, I sometimes find it better to just move on, rather than get worked up. Easier said than done sometimes though! It's just that once someone gets upset, the point being made can sometimes get lost. People get defensive, and the common ground you desire gets more and more elusive (well, based on my own experiences!).

July 14, 2015

I want to try and understand how she has such extremely drastic negative views on everything that's non Christian related. When you break down what she's said that is the basic impression I get out of it. That "the decline and soon to be demise of America is due to the liberal progressive population who are stealing away my freedoms and going against what God truly wants" I fail to see the rational behind that.

Q, I've been following closely for several years now the things going on in America- specifically politics. I am not happy about what I've seen. I could sit here and post link after link and it would do nothing except for you to say to me, well the other side has lied too... I believe and have come to the conclusion that the progressive movement is bad for this country- very bad. I also can't believe a word from most liberals. The trust is gone. It's got nothing to do with Christian or non Christian. America is in a downward spiral as the rest of the world- I was hoping Europe wouldn't drag us down with them... but we are seemingly going willingly.

I use the term 'secular' to differentiate religious from non religious- it's simply just a term.

...and for the record, you seem completely negative towards my views, having the us-v-them attitude, coupled with much worse terminology that I have used.

The original post posed a question on whether or not Christians should be more involved in politics. The 2nd post on the thread replied with "The enemy hates communication from Gods people and wishes to quiet us to promote their agenda". That's the mentality that religion brings to the table. It's "them vs us", "we are good and we know we are because God says so and everyone else is a detriment to society"

The enemy does hate communication from the Church... that's how I believe.. you think I'm unusual, but did you ever stop to think I may think the same of you... if you don't then you may be arrogant.

I sincerely hope you wake up Q, there is an agenda to destroy this country- please wake up.

This is why our founding fathers specifically separated church and state. Now I want to make sure I'm clear when I say that I'm not advocating for people to give up their religious beliefs or stop promoting it, going to church, etc. However, combining religion into politics and law making would do drastically more harm than anything else. We can't even discuss it in a forum without it getting a bit tense. If you read my first replies I did my best to remain respectful to the religious people's posts and politely asked for an explanation so i could try to further understand in hopes that there would be some middle ground I could find. I was met with a rude/sarcastic "you're so adorable Hun" as if to imply her Godly lifestyle couldn't be bothered with such a naive being.

Separation of church and state is not even real- where does it say that in the Constitution, it doesn't.

I'm not rude, it's how you are wired possibly- you may see every Christian in a negative manor.

Religion will always exist as long as their are humans and problems in the world. So if we agree on that point then we can agree also that religion is not being threatened or pushed out of America in any way. The population in this country is so diverse and that's the beauty of America and why people risk their lives for the opportunity to come here for chance at a better life. It's simply non sensical to think that with all the varying cultures, backgrounds, religions, races, etc in the USA that we should make Christianity the umbrella religion of us as U.S. Citizens. That would be like a vegetarian making everyone else at a restaurant eat only salads despite the fact that none of them have the same dietary stance that she does, but she believes it's better for you and you just need to go along with it. Sorry, they're allowed to eat their steak, and chicken, and fish, or not eat at all if they wanted to. If she didn't say anything about it would anyone in the restaurant be affected negatively? No... Would she as a vegetarian be forced to stop following her diet of greens? No.... There is no upside to this and even more importantly there is no possible way to suddenly after 350 years of independence and being a country that allows individuals the freedom to follow any religion or belief structure they choose.... To do a complete 180 and now say "we are going to use Christianity as a basis to our government and implement laws and policies that follow the teachings of The Bible.

I would ask you to have an open mind concerning how religious freedom is being attacked and eliminated. It wouldn't take much to find it on Google. I see it on a daily basis. Something is always in the courts. I strongly believe this country was founded as a Christian nation.

And the abortion topic is such a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes this country function. If that is what is most important to her in an election than its no wonder the candidate pool we have is less than stellar to say the least. And if people are naive enough to think that abortions weren't being perfomed by the church since the beginning of Christianity then i can't have an adult conversation with them.... The clergy in the Middle Ages were the ones who allowed "exceptions" for the kings and royals who got a woman pregnant out of wedlock or below their class structure. So let's stop with the high and mighty idea that this is something new that liberal women introduced. It's not

This is your opinion. Yes abortion has been going on for centuries I'm sure. Do you know how abortion came to the point of being legal? The issue is not 'have they been happening', this issue is in a supposed 'civilized society' is why is it legal?

The liberals progressive hero, Margaret Sanger, the founder of the largest abortion mill in the country, rallied for legalized abortion to exterminate the black weeds... back then people probably had a hard time with abortion and the progressives got antsy, so they went thru the backdoor ... the Supremes. The court case was Roe-v-Wade in 1973. It was a rape case. Abortion on demand was now legal. 'Roe' in Roe-v-Wade later confessed to lying about the rape, so this case was based on a lie- 60M babies later.

Edited July 14, 2015 by pureinheart

July 14, 2015

Thanks for laying it all out there in your response to my question. I do see where you're coming from, and you do make some good points. It does seem, however, that you already have a tainted view of Christians in general, and you're "taking it out on" pureinheart here as the embodiment and target of your contempt (I've seen others do this too). She is not your enemy!! She has views that are different from yours, simple as that. Here are some things in your response that I see as leaps in your logic that are unfair to her:

I want to try and understand how she has such extremely drastic negative views on everything that's non Christian related. When you break down what she's said that is the basic impression I get out of it. That "the decline and soon to be demise of America is due to the liberal progressive population who are stealing away my freedoms and going against what God truly wants" I fail to see the rational behind that.

So you took her quote about the liberal progressive agenda harming America, and translated that into her negative views on ALL non-Christian things?? That is quite a leap.

And about that liberal agenda - you gotta admit it has been a Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of sorts in the last 6 years since Obama took office - from Obamacare ("You can keep your doctor") to Benghazi ("We got attacked because of a YouTube video") to the economy (47 million on government assistance) to the SCOTUS ruling on gay marriage ("We're not limiting religious freedom, but if you don't acknowledge and support this publicly we'll sue you, fine you, gag you and run you out of business"). It does indeed feel like our freedoms are being eroded and we are being played.

The original post posed a question on whether or not Christians should be more involved in politics. The 2nd post on the thread replied with "The enemy hates communication from Gods people and wishes to quiet us to promote their agenda". That's the mentality that religion brings to the table. It's "them vs us", "we are good and we know we are because God says so and everyone else is a detriment to society"

That is a glaring stretch. When she talks about "the enemy" she is NOT talking about non-Christians. The enemy of mankind is Satan. That is what she is talking about. But I do see how people could translate "wishes to quiet us to promote their agenda" as fightin' words of Us v Them. But the last couple of your quotes are a warped interpretation of what she said. An honest Christian would never claim to be "good because God says so" - much less think everyone else is a detriment to society. We're just sinners who've been forgiven and saved (and pureinheart owns this completely). But that doesn't mean we've stopped thinking or don't have an opinion or have lost the right to speak up about it.

More to come from your response, I'll put it in a separate post. Thanks for reading, and I do respect your views on these things - I hope that came across in my responses.

July 14, 2015

Regardless of your beliefs, we can all agree that the basic idea is to treaat others kindly, look out for one another, take care of yourself, your family, and those less fortunate, and to continue to build on the communities and world we live in?

This is an excellent point, and while I am not pure in heart, I am a Christian, so maybe I can answer in a way that makes sense (at least to me lol).

The reason that even this statement may not be completely "universal" is because for many Christians, the convictions we have are inextricably linked with HOW we go about the above.

For example: treating each other kindly and looking out for one another. For man Christians, that means ALL humans, including humans that have not yet been born. So for us, not wanting a woman with a 20 weeks old baby in her womb to kill that baby IS looking out for others. I hear a lot of people talk about love with regard to Christians. To most Christians, we do not see love as some kind of kumbaya free for all. I think I have talked about that before, but is that how we love our children, our family, our close friends? If my close friend who I love dearly is hooked on heroin, for example, is it "love" to celebrate her habit with her and just go on with life while she wastes away? Or is real love coming alongside her with concern and encouraging her to quit?

Regarding rock paper scissors, I cannot help but notice that a silly game was used as the analogy. Y cannot compare a silly game to, say, millions of humans with distinct DNA having their lives ended for convenience. And yeah, I already know that some people are medically endangered, etc. That isn't what I am talking about.

There are people who vote for candidates who advocate for strong gun control because they are morally opposed to guns. How is that ANY different from voting for a candidate who is pro-life?

It sounds to me like what people want is for Christians specifically to stop having or imposing opinions, while everyone else is free to do so.

July 14, 2015

This is why our founding fathers specifically separated church and state. Now I want to make sure I'm clear when I say that I'm not advocating for people to give up their religious beliefs or stop promoting it, going to church, etc. However, combining religion into politics and law making would do drastically more harm than anything else. We can't even discuss it in a forum without it getting a bit tense.

I actually agree with you on this. I believe our FF did intend to separate church from state, and defend religious liberty. I also believe they were Christians, and when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, they were being guided by their Christian beliefs. It's woven into the DNA of those founding documents - recognizing the fundamental rights of the individual based on what is endowed by our Creator. Our nation was founded on Christian principles, and I believe that is why we have enjoyed such unprecedented prosperity as a nation.

But back to the separation of church and state - when Congress makes laws, SCOTUS interprets them, and POTUS enforces them - those government entities are run by people who are all trying to live out their own beliefs, religious or otherwise. From that perspective, I don't think it's possible to separate religion from politics (if you're religious and trying to live by those principles), and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. One of the beautiful things about the design of our government, with all its flaws, is that it provides BALANCE. No one entity can overpower the other two.

If you read my first replies I did my best to remain respectful to the religious people's posts and politely asked for an explanation so i could try to further understand in hopes that there would be some middle ground I could find. I was met with a rude/sarcastic "you're so adorable Hun" as if to imply her Godly lifestyle couldn't be bothered with such a naive being.

Wow I can certainly see why you would be offended if you interpreted it that way - I would be too! But I actually took it to be the opposite - she was acknowledging and appreciating your politeness and respectfulness. And you WERE polite and respectful. And you're right, she didn't respond with an explanation that was nearly as robust as your expounding. It takes a lot of thought and effort to adequately respond to all you post. You pack a lot into it!! I've spent all morning trying to respond to just ONE of your posts, and I know she's trying too. Bear with us!

July 14, 2015

Intolerance of non-believers and intolerance of other faiths is NOT Christian.

Nor American!

July 14, 2015

Intolerance of non-believers and intolerance of other faiths is NOT Christian.

Nor American!

I don't know how much of a case you can make for the latter. The Old Testament was hell on Baal worship, mainly the child sacrifice business (which seems like a legit thing to be intolerant of). The New Testament, on the other hand, was hell on Judaism as practiced at the time, at least by the leadership.

July 14, 2015

Religion will always exist as long as their are humans and problems in the world.

Agreed - at least, that has been historically true. We humans crave for a positive direction for our lives. And it has been the purpose of religion to provide that.

So if we agree on that point then we can agree also that religion is not being threatened or pushed out of America in any way.

You lost me on this. Just because religion will always exist in society, that is no guarantee government won't attempt to limit or squash the exercising of one's religion. We've seen that played out in the media in just these last couple months.

The population in this country is so diverse and that's the beauty of America and why people risk their lives for the opportunity to come here for chance at a better life. It's simply non sensical to think that with all the varying cultures, backgrounds, religions, races, etc in the USA that we should make Christianity the umbrella religion of us as U.S. Citizens.

Huh?? Who has pushed for the US government to establish Christianity as America's "umbrella religion"? I missed that one. All I've seen is people defending their right to continue practicing Christianity in America.

That would be like a vegetarian making everyone else at a restaurant eat only salads despite the fact that none of them have the same dietary stance that she does, but she believes it's better for you and you just need to go along with it. Sorry, they're allowed to eat their steak, and chicken, and fish, or not eat at all if they wanted to. If she didn't say anything about it would anyone in the restaurant be affected negatively? No... Would she as a vegetarian be forced to stop following her diet of greens? No....

But that's exactly what the gay agenda is doing - the effect of it! Only in reverse. While the vegetarian is forcing the meat-eaters to only eat salad, the SCOTUS ruling on gay marriage is forcing the vegetarian to eat meat! Operative word is "forcing." It's not right... and not what the FF intended - and why Christians are getting involved in politics (as they should).

There is no upside to this and even more importantly there is no possible way to suddenly after 350 [OB: it's actually been about 240] years of independence and being a country that allows individuals the freedom to follow any religion or belief structure they choose.... To do a complete 180 and now say "we are going to use Christianity as a basis to our government and implement laws and policies that follow the teachings of The Bible.

And I'm arguing that Christianity already IS the basis of our government's design, whether we acknowledge it or not. But again, I don't see anyone advocating the establishment of Christianity as America's official religion. And again, I also don't see anything wrong with Christians getting involved in politics and advocating laws/policies in accordance with their beliefs. Everybody else is doing it - why can't Christians?

There, I'm exhausted.

July 14, 2015

Intolerance of non-believers and intolerance of other faiths is NOT Christian.

Nor American!

Um...who exactly is intolerant?

July 14, 2015

I legitimately do not even know where to begin.

When I saw your post, well, I know how you feel.

You start with saying "progressive" leaves a bad tastes in your mouth. Meaning as soon as someone mentions a progressive idea you judge and assume they are not your kind of person to even hear out. I've posted multiple replies in this thread, directly addressing yours and others points and asking kindly if you would explain your thought process on certain issues and posed questions to evoke thought from you. They were all glazed over or ignored and each reply that's followed either went off on a tangent about what Jesues "really meant" or simply was given the "I believe Christianity is the one true belief system and won't accept anything else whatsoever if they don't share the same opinion. The hypocracy is unreal.

Wow... where you got that is beyond me, but whatever- to reply, true hypocrisy is the liberal progressive movement that proclaims to be non racist and humane. They are anything but these things. Abortion is only one example where I explained how I got here in a previous post.

Secondly to address your comment on Josh Duggar and the catholic priests actions. I would love to see if you had the same "oh that's awful yea but they seem sorry and were punished a little "mercy" mindset if Obama/atheist/non Christian politician was accused of the same things. There would be riots in the streets. Seriously....Child molesters and rapists who operated under immunity for centuries... And you summed it up in barely two sentences and suggest we forgive/forget and move on. But abortion... Whoa whoa whoa...those people are disgusting and it's an atrocity? I do not understand how religious people like yourself can pick and choose which "sins" are worth fighting for tooth and nail, and how others (which are just as horrible if not worse) aren't a priority or even a blip on the radar for you.

Possibly you haven't read the news lately, or you stick to the most illiterate biased publications. This current administration has no idea what being bi-partisan is nor has any idea what any truth is. Incase you haven't noticed, it's not Christians out there rioting...

Abortion is an atrocity, it's a shame you don't see it.

You also mentioned you've been divorced, correct me if I read your comment incorrectly. Are all sins equal? I'm going to assume that by your strong religious conservative stance that you are opposed to gay marriage. You however and anyone else who has been divorced has directly disgraced the "sanctity of marriage, and the sacred vows and oaths you took before God". You also use the word "secular" more than anyone I've ever debated with. What is is about that word that you feel accurately depicts the rest of society who is not Christian? And did you really blame society for your partners adultery and pornography?!? I cannot follow how you condemn those in office and say that the world is coming to an end, yet will simply blame "non believers" for the same sins/indiscretions/mistakes that have occurred in your life or the lives of other Christians.

Concerning pornography and the EMA's, I hold society accountable along with my ex's, yes, but I'm not placing blame on it or my ex's. They made a choice. I think your tripping on some of these things and exaggerating. Just because you don't like my responses doesn't make me wrong or whatever colorful word you've used to describe my views.

Additionally, please point out which freedoms you have had taken away from you in the last 20 years. Specifically, not just saying "if we continue down this road, we are doomed". Would love to know what in your life has been negatively affected to the point where it changes your quality of life day to day/ or head after year.

I think I addressed this. Open up a non biased publication that tells truth... I have many articles with facts, but don't feel like looking it all up again.

Obviously you don't see a problem with the road the world is taking... that's your choice and your opinion.

You believe the rapture is definitely going to occur? A simply Google search can show you all the "believers" like David Koresh that were "positive" that the "end was coming". Didn't work out too well for them. The fact of the matter is that no matter what I say or present to you or any other devoutly religious person that's in this thread.... You will not take take of my views, opinions, or suggestions of compromise to heart or even issue the statement of "I can understand where you are coming from, my upbringing and beliefs are just different". I can understand where you are coming from. I attended Catholic school for the first 18 years of my life, so I know how certain people find solace in the faith in God/higher powers. But the fact that we clearly do not see eye to eye on anything here should prove to you that injecting religion into our government would only split this country apart permanently.

It figures you would use DK to make your point. I don't have to take your views, I can listen to what you have to say and either dismiss it as your opinion or receive it as a new fact ... you don't do this? I do understand where you are coming from, but don't always communicate it- and for that I am wrong or the typical Christians are all close minded:rolleyes:

You might think times are terrible. I see the problems we think we have as first world problems. Go to a 3rd world country like Haiti and then tell me that America is doomed. We have grown faster and advanced beyond people's wildest expectations since our independence. Now all of a sudden you think it's time for us to become a Christian nation? I'm so glad that that will never happen.

We could enter into a third world nation should we remain in this direction. Check out history...

It's not 'all of a sudden'- America has followed Christian principle for a few hundred years... sorry, but it already has happened...

July 15, 2015

'politics' .... there you have it, I said it lol. I think if we don't take part in our communities and country, we will answer for that on the day of reckoning.

Should Christians be involved in Politics?

Here's my stand... please feel free to communicate yours:)

Hi Pureinheart! Hope you are doing very well!!!

I think it is fine for every citizen of a democratic republic country to take part in politics, regardless of their religion or no religion.

However, being a Christian includes obeying Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ said, “If you love me, you will keep my commands..." (John 14:15 CJB)

Sometimes, obeying Jesus Christ runs contrary to one's nation's culture. For example, Jesus Christ commands his (Jewish) followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:27-37). He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan to teach that loving neighbors includes loving people of other nationalities.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christians in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love neighbors, especially undocumented ones.

Jesus Christ also commands his (Jewish) followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). At that time, Israel was under Roman occupation and in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. However, Jesus Christ did not lead his Jewish followers into battle with their occupiers, or lead them in battle against the Jewish leaders who rejected him as the Anointed One.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christian in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love enemies, both in the USA and in other nations.

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

July 15, 2015

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

I agree, beth...great point! I think the first priority is the responsibility that come with knowing and wanting to follow Christ.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christians in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love neighbors, especially undocumented ones.

Jesus Christ also commands his (Jewish) followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

In the realm of politics, I've run in to this problem myself with representatives I don't agree with. It's easy to get upset with their policies, and forget they're human. But you're right, no matter what political party someone belongs to, or what their fiscal policies are, they deserve love.

Not only do leaders deserve love as human beings, they also deserve respect. Romans 13:1 - Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Even when we don't agree, the leader of our country does deserve respect. I don't think the bible encourages constant complaints about those who have been appointed as leaders. On a more personal note, this has especially hit closer to home for me in my work life, as I've had to learn to give respect to leaders (bosses) who I didn't necessarily agree with. But life is definitely nicer when I learn to try to see the positive in someone in authority, rather than constantly getting annoyed at policies, procedures etc. .

Not that we can't advocate for change in policy, laws, etc! But attacks against the leader as a person don't seem to do much good...

July 15, 2015

Hi Pureinheart! Hope you are doing very well!!!

I think it is fine for every citizen of a democratic republic country to take part in politics, regardless of their religion or no religion.

However, being a Christian includes obeying Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ said, “If you love me, you will keep my commands..." (John 14:15 CJB)

Sometimes, obeying Jesus Christ runs contrary to one's nation's culture. For example, Jesus Christ commands his (Jewish) followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:27-37). He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan to teach that loving neighbors includes loving people of other nationalities.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christians in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love neighbors, especially undocumented ones.

Jesus Christ also commands his (Jewish) followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). At that time, Israel was under Roman occupation and in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. However, Jesus Christ did not lead his Jewish followers into battle with their occupiers, or lead them in battle against the Jewish leaders who rejected him as the Anointed One.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christian in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love enemies, both in the USA and in other nations.

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Good to see you, butterfly, as always the voice of love. You are a light!

Good post,

Grumps

July 15, 2015

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, this is what I think. The Kingdom could never be the USA. In fact I think when the USA enacts laws that allow for non-Christian behavior as legal, it provides Christians more opportunity to speak out and explain why what is legal to do is not always right or moral to do. It is the opportunity to help individuals, given free will by God by design (and also by law) to understand the power and responsibility that comes with choice.

If the government takes the ability to choose away, it also takes the opportunity to talk about choice away. And in my mind, helping one person to make better decisions is a lot better and more powerful than forcing 1000 people to do the right thing or else.

July 15, 2015

Hi Pureinheart! Hope you are doing very well!!!

Very well, and you???

I think it is fine for every citizen of a democratic republic country to take part in politics, regardless of their religion or no religion.

Amen:)

However, being a Christian includes obeying Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ said, “If you love me, you will keep my commands..." (John 14:15 CJB)

Without a doubt

Sometimes, obeying Jesus Christ runs contrary to one's nation's culture. For example, Jesus Christ commands his (Jewish) followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:27-37). He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan to teach that loving neighbors includes loving people of other nationalities.

Of course...

Sadly, many people who identify as Christians in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love neighbors, especially undocumented ones.

Where is this coming from love? Concerning 'undocumented' are we speaking of illegal?

Jesus Christ also commands his (Jewish) followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). At that time, Israel was under Roman occupation and in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. However, Jesus Christ did not lead his Jewish followers into battle with their occupiers, or lead them in battle against the Jewish leaders who rejected him as the Anointed One.

The reason for this is Jesus's commission at that point in time was to be the perfect sacrifice for the sin of all mankind... it wasn't the 'time' for battle, although in Revelations, Jesus Second Coming, He leads the Battle of Armageddon and we are with Him.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christian in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love enemies, both in the USA and in other nations.

I have to wonder what brought this up Bethy?

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Amen!

July 15, 2015

Hi Pureinheart! Hope you are doing very well!!!

I think it is fine for every citizen of a democratic republic country to take part in politics, regardless of their religion or no religion.

However, being a Christian includes obeying Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ said, “If you love me, you will keep my commands..." (John 14:15 CJB)

Sometimes, obeying Jesus Christ runs contrary to one's nation's culture. For example, Jesus Christ commands his (Jewish) followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:27-37). He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan to teach that loving neighbors includes loving people of other nationalities.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christians in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love neighbors, especially undocumented ones.

Jesus Christ also commands his (Jewish) followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). At that time, Israel was under Roman occupation and in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. However, Jesus Christ did not lead his Jewish followers into battle with their occupiers, or lead them in battle against the Jewish leaders who rejected him as the Anointed One.

Sadly, many people who identify as Christian in the USA disobey Jesus' commands to love enemies, both in the USA and in other nations.

So, while it's definitely find for Christians to participate in politics, it's more important for Christian to obey Jesus Christ's commands, and also to remember that Jesus' Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven.

You are a lovely human being!! Thank goodness for you!

July 15, 2015

Where is this coming from love? Concerning 'undocumented' are we speaking of illegal?

Do you love them if they are illegal OR undocumented, do you love our President, do you love people of Islam?

July 15, 2015

Do you love them if they are illegal OR undocumented, do you love our President, do you love people of Islam?

There's many definitions of 'love'. I love the sinner and hate the sin... I can love them, but not like what they do.

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