As Christians should we be involved in ...

[Qboro90]

You are adorable BTW... I haven't had the opportunity to discuss/debate anything with you yet... so am grateful:)

 

Well, you said you felt separating religion from politics was important- I want OC separated from everything ...lol (it was mainly a joke, but I am serious about that). I don't think anyone has been able to interpret much concerning OC. Yes, I realize it was a bit off-topic... I have MTD (multiple thread disorder) ... apologies:)

 

If you don't have 'religion' then you have secular, correct?

 

Thank you for the adorable comment. I've been told that quite a few times but it's always nice to hear. If you don't have a religion that does not make you secular at all. I disagree with that statement completely. You can easily not believe in a specific religion and still be a spiritual person. You can also be a religious follower/believer/practices (whatever you wanna call it) yet not want to involve that part of your life in the government of your country. It's not all black and white which I think you believe it should be. Like I stated in my first post 10 different people can see the same passage or message and view it in 10 different ways and they can all be right on their own way/minds. There doesn't need to be a "if it's not this, then it must be that" right? Mentality towards this.

[pureinheart]

Those who are against abortion should not have to help fund anything that has to do with abortion services. If we made exceptions and exemptions to every tax or finance paid in which someone was against morally, religiously, etc then NOBODY would pay taxes! And if you really cared about your money going towards that topic then what about your money going to medical research clinics? Where drugs that treat everyday diseases are tested on animals. (Dogs, cats, horses, pigs, it's not just rats and mice despite public perception) What about the money you pay that goes towards prisons and inmates who are despicable humans? What about the money you give that leads to a bomb being made that misses its target and kills an innocent family of 5 with 3 children? That your ok with paying... But abortion... No way?

 

I have more to add to your list, although abortion is a very important issue. Babies being murdered at the rate they are. Next is animals-I've started threads on both.

[UpwardForward]

Did you not see that I was giving a made up example? None of those candidates exist, it is a thought evoking "what if". You can re arrange the qualifications any way you like if you feel better that way lol.

To follow that up however could you please share who YOU would vote for out of those 3 FICTIONAL candidate examples. The Protestant with experience, atheist with jobs, or Christian with poor track record? Common sense would say you choose one of the 2 candidates that will bring the most to your community and family right?

 

I thought you were speaking of three local candidates in your area or local election.

 

My two top considerations are always: Is the candidate completely against abortion. And is he fiscally conservative i.e a good steward of the Peoples' monies, and willing to make cutbacks rather than ask higher taxation. I choose a candidate in this manner whether voting for president or governor.

 

With the dozen or so who are running, my added considerations would be a candidate with experience and a good record (as former governor). And with national security a top priority incl that of protecting our borders.

[Qboro90]

I thought you were speaking of three local candidates in your area or local election.

 

My two top considerations are always: Is the candidate completely against abortion. And is he fiscally conservative i.e a good steward of the Peoples' monies, and willing to make cutbacks rather than ask higher taxation. I choose a candidate in this manner whether voting for president or governor.

 

With the dozen or so who are running, my added considerations would be a candidate with experience and a good record (as former governor). And with national security a top priority incl that of protecting our borders.

 

 

No I wasn't speaking about anyone real/factual. Was just a list of 3 fictional candidates and their made up backgrounds to gauge who you would find most appealing. Wasn't asking for what you look for in a candidate for the next election. Was however asking out of the 3 that I listed…who out of those 3 (Protestant, Atheist, Christian) and their track records, would be most appealing for YOU to vote for. Again….completely hypothetical.

 

And you say that a candidates stand on abortion is your numb 1 priority when considering who to vote for, followed by their fiscal stance? Can i ask why abortion is so high on your list? Just for arguments sake lets say the next presidential candidate has EVERYTHING you want in a politician running for president EXCEPT they are pro life. They are clearly the best person for the job in every aspect besides their stand on abortion. Would that stop you from voting for them?

[UpwardForward]

No I wasn't speaking about anyone real/factual. Was just a list of 3 fictional candidates and their made up backgrounds to gauge who you would find most appealing. Wasn't asking for what you look for in a candidate for the next election. Was however asking out of the 3 that I listed…who out of those 3 (Protestant, Atheist, Christian) and their track records, would be most appealing for YOU to vote for. Again….completely hypothetical.

 

And you say that a candidates stand on abortion is your numb 1 priority when considering who to vote for, followed by their fiscal stance? Can i ask why abortion is so high on your list? Just for arguments sake lets say the next presidential candidate has EVERYTHING you want in a politician running for president EXCEPT they are pro life. They are clearly the best person for the job in every aspect besides their stand on abortion. Would that stop you from voting for them?

 

According to your illustration/argument above, you are saying the best candidate for the job is pro life. Imo, this is true.

 

If what you consider the 'best candidate' is not pro life, then they are Not the best candidate, imo.

 

Imo, there is something very wrong with a person who approves baby killing, and their thought processes. The president also places judges/justices, so sin can spread.

[autumnnight]

Coo:) (just to make clear coo=cool)

 

Personally I think the US is prime for revival, a revival unlike no other...

 

Yes, and the truth is that THIS is the only real hope. This will have to be a God thing. The best I can do is pray, live righteously, vote my conscience, exhort the church and speak to lost people the way Jesus spoke to lost people. Because the way He spoke to lost people and the way He spoke to the church was radically different.

[pureinheart]

Yes, I think we should. I

.

 

Michael Y. is the (well you know, as we've been over this before:D) He is amazing. More than not my communication lacks, but he definitely filled in what I try to say- our freedoms are eroding away and because it hasn't completely happened yet, doesn't mean we won't wake up one morning under dictatorship.

 

Hey, TFW, did you see Allen B. West in the congregation???

 

Seeing him made me think of a post over in the political section where a member communicated her 'dream team' ... she couldn't have done a better job with placing the right people with the right job. There are so many amazing conservative leaders out there- I pray God has mercy on us and puts them in power...

[pureinheart]

 

And you say that a candidates stand on abortion is your numb 1 priority when considering who to vote for, followed by their fiscal stance? Can i ask why abortion is so high on your list? Just for arguments sake lets say the next presidential candidate has EVERYTHING you want in a politician running for president EXCEPT they are pro life. They are clearly the best person for the job in every aspect besides their stand on abortion. Would that stop you from voting for them?

 

Because abortion is barbaric, and with this type of barbarism taking place a community or nation cannot stand for long.

 

If the candidate had everything, but a pro-life stand I would not vote for them, and couldn't.

[pureinheart]

Yes, and the truth is that THIS is the only real hope. This will have to be a God thing. The best I can do is pray, live righteously, vote my conscience, exhort the church and speak to lost people the way Jesus spoke to lost people. Because the way He spoke to lost people and the way He spoke to the church was radically different.

 

If this is what God leads you to do, then who am I or anyone to say you are wrong? We all have different callings, talents and gifts, not to mention God anoints us for different tasks.

 

*please note* this is in general, not speaking to anyone here on LS.

 

I get frustrated when I hear, 'God will take care of it' ... now this in itself is fine, but when it's placed into the context of apathy, I really get mad. Much like the person, 'I've been praying for a job', but they don't look for one and get mad when they don't have a job... this isn't the best illustration, but you get what I'm saying.

 

Gods people aren't IMO supposed to sit around watching the grass grow while their country and community is crumbling.

 

The link of Michael Y. (the one TFW provided) said it perfect- people have a weird concept of Jesus and are Biblically illiterate. This illiteracy has made it to the secular community and it is just a mess.

[Keenly]

People like to cast the " feel good " vote. Which candidate do people feel good voting for. Doesn't matter if his plans will improve the country or not, or whether or not he will be an effective leader or a good decision make, but as long as people feel good voting forfo him, they'll vote.

 

 

Some people are one topic voters. Usually topics that have nothing to do with the countries problems as a whole.

[nittygritty]

Did you not see that I was giving a made up example? None of those candidates exist, it is a thought evoking "what if". You can re arrange the qualifications any way you like if you feel better that way lol.

To follow that up however could you please share who YOU would vote for out of those 3 FICTIONAL candidate examples. The Protestant with experience, atheist with jobs, or Christian with poor track record? Common sense would say you choose one of the 2 candidates that will bring the most to your community and family right?

 

Atheist candidates rarely if ever admit they are atheists. Which makes them liars and untrustworthy. If a candidate cannot even be honest about their beliefs or lack of, they sure as heck aren't going to "bring the most to your community and family" or country.

 

To answer Pureinheart's question. Yes, Christian's should be involved in politics.

[Keenly]

Atheist candidates rarely if ever admit they are atheists. Which makes them liars and untrustworthy. If a candidate cannot even be honest about their beliefs or lack of, they sure as heck aren't going to "bring the most to your community and family" or country.

 

To answer Pureinheart's question. Yes, Christian's should be involved in politics.

 

 

 

You're kidding right? A man that doesn't want to discuss his beliefs or lack of beliefs is a liar and untrustworthy?

 

So if he says he is an atheists, the hard-core religious right starts questioning his morals, but when he keeps it to himself, he is a liar and untrustworthy.

 

I guess a Christian is 100 percent honest, trustworthy, ethical, and just oozes integrity?

[nittygritty]

You're kidding right? A man that doesn't want to discuss his beliefs or lack of beliefs is a liar and untrustworthy?

 

So if he says he is an atheists, the hard-core religious right starts questioning his morals, but when he keeps it to himself, he is a liar and untrustworthy.

 

I guess a Christian is 100 percent honest, trustworthy, ethical, and just oozes integrity?

 

No, I said a candidate that is not honest about their beliefs or lack of. There has never been a presidential candidate that admitted to being an Atheist.

[Keenly]

No, I said a candidate that is not honest about their beliefs or lack of. There has never been a presidential candidate that admitted to being an Atheist.

 

And why is that, do you think?

 

 

I'd bet every penny I own it's because he would be discarded immediately by the religious groups without even listening to his positions or what he stands for.

 

 

He is not wearing their teams colors.

[autumnnight]

If this is what God leads you to do, then who am I or anyone to say you are wrong? We all have different callings, talents and gifts, not to mention God anoints us for different tasks.

 

*please note* this is in general, not speaking to anyone here on LS.

 

I get frustrated when I hear, 'God will take care of it' ... now this in itself is fine, but when it's placed into the context of apathy, I really get mad. Much like the person, 'I've been praying for a job', but they don't look for one and get mad when they don't have a job... this isn't the best illustration, but you get what I'm saying.

 

Gods people aren't IMO supposed to sit around watching the grass grow while their country and community is crumbling.

 

The link of Michael Y. (the one TFW provided) said it perfect- people have a weird concept of Jesus and are Biblically illiterate. This illiteracy has made it to the secular community and it is just a mess.

 

Sorry for the delayed reply. I was trying to find where I said we should do nothing and be apathetic. Turns out that isn't what I said.

 

I think we should share our views in a Christlike manner. I think we should use the power of our votes. I am all for petitions and attending school board meetings en masse and even going to Washington if we are passionate.

 

But in everything we, the question we should ask is this: is my heart, my attitude, my motivation Christlike? And I don't mean Jesus in the temple whipping the church. I mean Jesus the way He sat with sinners. Because that is really who we are disagreeing with when it comes down to it.

 

A practical application: it's the difference between a person who prays with, supports, and offers to help a 17 year old pregnant girl and one who blocks her path to the abortion clinic while screaming "murder!!!" and waving a picture of a dead baby in her face. Both people are "pro-life." Which one is like Jesus?

[nittygritty]

And why is that, do you think?

 

 

I'd bet every penny I own it's because he would be discarded immediately by the religious groups without even listening to his positions or what he stands for.

 

 

He is not wearing their teams colors.

 

Because the majority of Americans would not vote for an Atheist or an Agnostic.. Because the majority of Americans are not Atheist or Agnostic.

[Keenly]

Because the majority of Americans would not vote for an Atheist or an Agnostic.. Because the majority of Americans are not Atheist or Agnostic.

 

Anyone who votes for the worse candidate because they share a religion needs to stop voting.

 

This isn't a popularity contest, it's the future of the country.

[Mrin]

A few thoughts:

 

1. I am not a Christian. I believe in God. From time to time I attend Christian services ranging from a working man's Mass on a Thursday evening to Sundays at a progressive non-denomination church - and everything in between. I regularly attend bible study.

 

2. I root for Christians. I root for all people's of faith but there is a certain unique-ness to Jesus and his message (vs. those of his apostles and the modern day sects of Christianity). Something so profound that it shook the earth and all of humanity.

 

3. That being said, for me Christianity (particularly the politicized conservative Christianity here in the US) is like this beautifully and elaborately painted Easter egg. A thing of beauty. But under that thin shell, is a pulsating mass of putrefaction and corruption. A toxic soup of judgement, hypocrisy, intolerance, hatred and neo-fascism. Jesus would be ashamed at what you hear spouted every day on conservative talk radio in His name. The hypocrisy is endless. Josh Duggar. Bill Gotherd. Sexual assaults by priests. Phil Robertson. The list goes on and on. Heck, even look at divorce rates in "Christian" dominant states. I don't know what ever this "Christian" experience is that we hear all the time on talk radio but whatever it is, it isn't working if the goal is produce a people who are more Christlike.

 

4. I've realized that I have over generalized in my castigation of Christianity and unfairly lumped in a lot of truly amazing Christians into and unfair and harsh light. I think the pope is a rockstar! But I guess my point is, clean you own damn house before you start trying to tell others how to clean theirs.

 

5. I don't think we are in store for a revival in this country. The annual polling numbers demonstrate that. It we are, it certainly won't be a return to fundamentalist or traditional Christianity. It would need to be a progressive brand of Christianity that is rooted in Christ's teachings on acceptance, tolerance and forgiveness.

 

6. All that being said - I absolutely think that Christians should participate in politics and it is absurd to think that they shouldn't. They have every right to pull their beliefs and moral compasses in the policy making discussion. But they just have to realize that just because they believe something, doesn't mean it has to become law. We have a Constitution that thankfully prevents that and a Supreme Court (even a conservative one at that) who is doing a good job protecting the Constitution.

[autumnnight]

That being said, for me Christianity (particularly the politicized conservative Christianity here in the US) is like this beautifully and elaborately painted Easter egg. A thing of beauty. But under that thin shell, is a pulsating mass of putrefaction and corruption. A toxic soup of judgement, hypocrisy, intolerance, hatred and neo-fascism. Jesus would be ashamed at what you hear spouted every day on conservative talk radio in His name. The hypocrisy is endless. Josh Duggar. Bill Gotherd. Sexual assaults by priests. Phil Robertson. The list goes on and on. Heck, even look at divorce rates in "Christian" dominant states. I don't know what ever this "Christian" experience is that we hear all the time on talk radio but whatever it is, it isn't working if the goal is produce a people who are more Christlike.

 

You have just described what most of non-churched America thinks of Christians. And sorry, but not ALL of that can be "well, those people are just sinful and don't understand Christianity."

 

The word revival, when parsed, basically means "to come to life AGAIN." Like my old pastor said: you have to be "vived" before you can be "REvived." Revival is for the church. Because we need it. Your egg descriptions reminds me of exactly what Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day: You are like whitened tombs with dead man's bones inside.

 

Except a lot of the eggs aren't even painted prettily in the modern church; they are painted with red, angry faces and cloaks of religious pride.

 

Until, we, the church, get humble (if MY people who are called by MY name) and start obeying His Word for ourselves - all of it, then we ought to be ashamed of ourselves for shaking our fists at everyone else. Jesus grieved for sin. He grieved for the lost. The only people He got angry with were the church.

 

We Christians can't even love each other, much less the rest of the world. It's heartbreaking and nauseating at the same time.

[nittygritty]

Anyone who votes for the worse candidate because they share a religion needs to stop voting.

 

This isn't a popularity contest, it's the future of the country.

 

Why do you say that? Is it because you are an Atheist or Agnostic? If so, then it may not matter to you but it does to me. Most people aren't going to vote for somebody that is "their own God" unless they are deceived into believing that a candidate believes in God or Christ. Deception and flat out lies from politicians has hurt our country and it's future. Whether someone believes or not, many of the things that we are seeing happen to the future of our country and the world is in the Bible. It's best to be prepared. My faith is in Christ. Not a political candidate. But I'm certainly not going to vote for someone who has a history of corruption and lies.

[Keenly]

Why do you say that? Is it because you are an Atheist or Agnostic? If so, then it may not matter to you but it does to me. Most people aren't going to vote for somebody that is "their own God" unless they are deceived into believing that a candidate believes in God or Christ. Deception and flat out lies from politicians has hurt our country and it's future. Whether someone believes or not, many of the things that we are seeing happen to the future of our country and the world is in the Bible. It's best to be prepared. My faith is in Christ. Not a political candidate. But I'm certainly not going to vote for someone who has a history of corruption and lies.

 

You already have voted for these people.

I know you are not naive enough to believe that because some one identifies as a Christian that they are automatically a good, honest, decent human being.

[pureinheart]

A few thoughts:

 

Radical post love, hope I can give thoughtful responses back

 

 

1. I am not a Christian. I believe in God. From time to time I attend Christian services ranging from a working man's Mass on a Thursday evening to Sundays at a progressive non-denomination church - and everything in between. I regularly attend bible study.

 

You had me up to the 'progressive'... that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

 

2. I root for Christians. I root for all people's of faith but there is a certain unique-ness to Jesus and his message (vs. those of his apostles and the modern day sects of Christianity). Something so profound that it shook the earth and all of humanity.

 

The Apostles were anointed to speak His Word though- you don't care for their message? I agree with some sects of Christianity are really messed up...

 

3. That being said, for me Christianity (particularly the politicized conservative Christianity here in the US) is like this beautifully and elaborately painted Easter egg. A thing of beauty. But under that thin shell, is a pulsating mass of putrefaction and corruption. A toxic soup of judgement, hypocrisy, intolerance, hatred and neo-fascism. Jesus would be ashamed at what you hear spouted every day on conservative talk radio in His name. The hypocrisy is endless. Josh Duggar. Bill Gotherd. Sexual assaults by priests. Phil Robertson. The list goes on and on. Heck, even look at divorce rates in "Christian" dominant states. I don't know what ever this "Christian" experience is that we hear all the time on talk radio but whatever it is, it isn't working if the goal is produce a people who are more Christlike.

 

There's a thread going on Josh Duggar right now. While what he did was apprehensible, I think it was handled in the right manor... based on his confession, I think mercy is the key in this case.

 

The priest thing in the Catholic Church has been dealt with and the Catholic faith has paid a heavy price for a few. Should forgiveness enter in at this point?

 

I would like to research more concerning divorce rates among Christians. I know my divorces had to do with adultery and pornography... basically the secular world got in there and destroyed the marriages.

 

You know, Christians are human too and mess up big time, yet they are held to these out-of-proportion standards... if the 'world' held themselves to these standards, we may not have the problems that we have today.

 

4. I've realized that I have over generalized in my castigation of Christianity and unfairly lumped in a lot of truly amazing Christians into and unfair and harsh light. I think the pope is a rockstar! But I guess my point is, clean you own damn house before you start trying to tell others how to clean theirs.

 

I have to ask why you think the Pope is a rockstar? Because he likes heavy metal or was into it when he was a kid? I would like to know what heavy metal he was into... Ozzy Osborne was satanic. Ask Jeff Fenholt.

 

 

5. I don't think we are in store for a revival in this country. The annual polling numbers demonstrate that. It we are, it certainly won't be a return to fundamentalist or traditional Christianity. It would need to be a progressive brand of Christianity that is rooted in Christ's teachings on acceptance, tolerance and forgiveness.

 

What a new brand of tolerant intolerant? That's what 'progressives' are.

 

Who knows, time will tell. I believe this country will see revival, and i don't believe there is time to straighten out the severe mess (sin) plaguing this country (unless God majorly intervenes). I strongly believe the Rapture could take place anytime now... the stage is completely set. God has His Eye/timelime set for/on the Jewish people... watch them, read Bible Prophecy, and that will tell you a lot as to where we are at concerning the Tribulation Period.

 

 

6. All that being said - I absolutely think that Christians should participate in politics and it is absurd to think that they shouldn't. They have every right to pull their beliefs and moral compasses in the policy making discussion. But they just have to realize that just because they believe something, doesn't mean it has to become law. We have a Constitution that thankfully prevents that and a Supreme Court (even a conservative one at that) who is doing a good job protecting the Constitution.

 

 

The Supremes are not following the Constitution... not by a long shot.

[nittygritty]

You have just described what most of non-churched America thinks of Christians. And sorry, but not ALL of that can be "well, those people are just sinful and don't understand Christianity."

 

The word revival, when parsed, basically means "to come to life AGAIN." Like my old pastor said: you have to be "vived" before you can be "REvived." Revival is for the church. Because we need it. Your egg descriptions reminds me of exactly what Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day: You are like whitened tombs with dead man's bones inside.

 

Except a lot of the eggs aren't even painted prettily in the modern church; they are painted with red, angry faces and cloaks of religious pride.

 

Until, we, the church, get humble (if MY people who are called by MY name) and start obeying His Word for ourselves - all of it, then we ought to be ashamed of ourselves for shaking our fists at everyone else. Jesus grieved for sin. He grieved for the lost. The only people He got angry with were the church.

 

We Christians can't even love each other, much less the rest of the world. It's heartbreaking and nauseating at the same time.

 

I'm a "non-churched" Christian. I'm also pro-choice to a certain extent because of Exodus 21:22 and other verses being unclear to me. I'm opposed to same sex marriage because the Bible is real clear to me about marriage being between a man and a woman. I believe John 3:16. Your interpretation and other Christians interpretation of details and translations of verses in the Bible may not be the same. But "the big picture" is the same.

[nittygritty]

You already have voted for these people.

I know you are not naive enough to believe that because some one identifies as a Christian that they are automatically a good, honest, decent human being.

 

I know that. My faith is in Christ, not politicians. But I'm still going to vote.

[autumnnight]

I'm a "non-churched" Christian. I'm also pro-choice to a certain extent because of Exodus 21:22 and other verses being unclear to me. I'm opposed to same sex marriage because the Bible is real clear to me about marriage being between a man and a woman. I believe John 3:16. Your interpretation and other Christians interpretation of details and translations of verses in the Bible may not be the same. But "the big picture" is the same.

 

I wasn't necessarily attacking details of things and who believes what. I was saying that the outside world (most of it) does not view the church as the light bearing, gospel-sharing paragon it was meant to be. Most of the rest of the world views the church as a rule-listing country club wall of protests and boycotts that cannot even get along with each other. And honestly, I kind of see their point.

 

I have been accused of being a false Christian because I didn't get mad enough at gay people and haven't said enough things about abortion being murder. I'm apparently possessed because I have struggled with depression. And when I suggest that we fulfill the Great Commission of winning souls and making disciples I am apparently saying we shouldn't have political opinions.

 

 

Jesus said the world would know us by the love we have for one another.

 

And for the record, I am not sure what Exodus passage you are referring to, but I will say that if I had an ectopic pregnancy, for example, I would n consider that abortion, as no ectopic pregnancy will EVER carry to term, and Mom will probably die. I was referring to this whole "oops, a baby is inconvenient, so I'll just run on down here and kill it before my lunch date." Which IS what 90+% of abortions are about.