As Christians should we be involved in ...

[pureinheart]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I was trying to find where I said we should do nothing and be apathetic. Turns out that isn't what I said.

 

Many on LS have said that Christians/religion needs to stay out of politics. I've been down this road and have debated it a few times. I think you said something similar- I hear it a lot, so maybe not you or I misread you.

 

My point is we all have different personalities and God deals with us all differently.

 

 

I think we should share our views in a Christlike manner. I think we should use the power of our votes. I am all for petitions and attending school board meetings en masse and even going to Washington if we are passionate.

 

Completely agree

 

But in everything we, the question we should ask is this: is my heart, my attitude, my motivation Christlike? And I don't mean Jesus in the temple whipping the church. I mean Jesus the way He sat with sinners. Because that is really who we are disagreeing with when it comes down to it.

 

Without a doubt, although what I see is the world and a few Christians using these statements about the Money Changers and the Temple (and many others) as the profile for all Christian behavior. Not so, there is a season for everything under the sun. This is propaganda at it's finest IMO, with it's only goal being to keep the Church silent- because if you keep the Church silent, evil can enter in at alarming rates, and we are seeing that today.

 

A practical application: it's the difference between a person who prays with, supports, and offers to help a 17 year old pregnant girl and one who blocks her path to the abortion clinic while screaming "murder!!!" and waving a picture of a dead baby in her face. Both people are "pro-life." Which one is like Jesus?

 

I have never once seen a Pro-lifer block a person screaming murder... but it's what it is. Murder. Jesus called it like it was.

[autumnnight]

This is propaganda at it's finest IMO, with it's only goal being to keep the Church silent

 

I invite you to quote all the posts in which I said the Church should be silent.

 

And yes, I believe scraping and sucking apart a human baby is murder. I'm just not sure screaming at a 17 year old girl is the most Christlike way to spread that message

[nittygritty]

I wasn't necessarily attacking details of things and who believes what. I was saying that the outside world (most of it) does not view the church as the light bearing, gospel-sharing paragon it was meant to be. Most of the rest of the world views the church as a rule-listing country club wall of protests and boycotts that cannot even get along with each other. And honestly, I kind of see their point.

 

I have been accused of being a false Christian because I didn't get mad enough at gay people and haven't said enough things about abortion being murder. I'm apparently possessed because I have struggled with depression. And when I suggest that we fulfill the Great Commission of winning souls and making disciples I am apparently saying we shouldn't have political opinions.

 

 

Jesus said the world would know us by the love we have for one another.

 

And for the record, I am not sure what Exodus passage you are referring to, but I will say that if I had an ectopic pregnancy, for example, I would n consider that abortion, as no ectopic pregnancy will EVER carry to term, and Mom will probably die. I was referring to this whole "oops, a baby is inconvenient, so I'll just run on down here and kill it before my lunch date." Which IS what 90+% of abortions are about.

 

Jesus is the only one without sin. We are all sinners. I believe that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is not believing in God. Not believing that Christ is the savior. I believe John 3:16.

 

Christians still have the right to state their political opinions in the U.S.

However, something that bothers me is when someone with religious beliefs that cites bible verses about something like same sex marriage is accused of "hate speech" or "homophobia". I do have some serious concerns about a liberal agenda that may be trying to squash Americans religious freedoms.

[autumnnight]

Jesus is the only one without sin. We are all sinners. I believe that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is not believing in God. Not believing that Christ is the savior. I believe John 3:16.

 

Christians still have the right to state their political opinions in the U.S.

However, something that bothers me is when someone with religious beliefs that cites bible verses about something like same sex marriage is accused of "hate speech" or "homophobia". I do have some serious concerns about a liberal agenda that may be trying to squash Americans religious freedoms.

 

Exactly. Calmly and lovingly telling the truth about what God's Word says is not hate. Choosing not to take part in sinful behavior or celebrate sinful behavior is not hate. Disagreement is not hate.

 

And you are right. There was one sinless Man ever...and He died for the rest of us. We are all the same at the foot of the cross - sinners in need of grace.

 

Sad that a lot of people in the church forget that

[Keenly]

Jesus is the only one without sin. We are all sinners. I believe that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is not believing in God. Not believing that Christ is the savior. I believe John 3:16.

 

Christians still have the right to state their political opinions in the U.S.

However, something that bothers me is when someone with religious beliefs that cites bible verses about something like same sex marriage is accused of "hate speech" or "homophobia". I do have some serious concerns about a liberal agenda that may be trying to squash Americans religious freedoms.

 

John 316 doesn't say that not believing in God is a siN. You threw that part in there.

[autumnnight]

John 316 doesn't say that not believing in God is a siN. You threw that part in there.

 

I am assuming that John 3:16 was a separate point.

 

Point 1: We are all sinners

 

Point 2: God so loved the world that he sent his son, that WHOSOEVER....etc

 

Sadly, you'd be surprised how many Christians DON'T believe John 3:16

[RoseVille]

Our founding fathers praised Christian VALUES but certainly did not lobby for a Christian state, nor a country founded on religion.

 

In fact, they were disciples of tolerance, freedom, scientific thinking, a united people of diverse religious beliefs in allegiance to a shared quest for justice and the common good.

[Keenly]

If God gave us free will, why do Christians like to attempt to legislate their own morality?

 

 

If I'm free to sin, why attempt to make it illegal? Especially when I'm not harming another human being or entity.

[nittygritty]

John 316 doesn't say that not believing in God is a siN. You threw that part in there.

 

God the father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

[Keenly]

I am assuming that John 3:16 was a separate point.

 

Point 1: We are all sinners

 

Point 2: God so loved the world that he sent his son, that WHOSOEVER....etc

 

Sadly, you'd be surprised how many Christians DON'T believe John 3:16

I think many Christians feel that God put them on the earth to harass other people into agreeing with them.

 

They've gotten quite into the role Too. I agree with you that if they would stop telling people how to live and lead by example rather than demanding compliance, the recruitment rate would go u.

[autumnnight]

If God gave us free will, why do Christians like to attempt to legislate their own morality?

 

 

If I'm free to sin, why attempt to make it illegal? Especially when I'm not harming another human being or entity.

 

This is a whole other debate, but most Christians would agree that being free to sin does not mean sin is good.

[nittygritty]

I am assuming that John 3:16 was a separate point.

 

Point 1: We are all sinners

 

Point 2: God so loved the world that he sent his son, that WHOSOEVER....etc

 

Sadly, you'd be surprised how many Christians DON'T believe John 3:16

 

Yes, other verses talk about unforgivable/unpardonable sin. I stated My beliefs.

[Timshel]

Jesus is Love. Love is God. God is Creation.

 

Christianity is supposed to be Love. Not the passive, transient, fickle love that people superficially witness.

 

Love is still, doesn't change or move. It is what Is.

 

I don't call myself a Christian anymore. There has never once been a time that I have felt away from God, Creation. Not once.

 

People who love God should Love people. Grace, gratitude, respect, humility, kindness.

 

For me, taking the high road, being gracious, kind and compassionate. No one is perfect.

 

I am 'Bible' trained and have an immense respect for churches that are inclusive. Some churches do wonderful things for community and individuals.

 

It is always inside out. No one is better or worse unless their actions or words are harmful to others. Then they are harmful to themselves.

[autumnnight]

Christianity is supposed to be Love. Not the passive, transient, fickle love that people superficially witness.

 

I like that you said this. Because I think people expect Christian love to be some wimpy, spineless, conscienceless love.

 

The Bible calls God our Heavenly Father. How do parents love their children? Do they give them candy and unicorns and high self esteem and tell them to do whatever they want to? When they walk into a street with heavy traffic, do the parents just say "Aww, I don't want to stifle their individuality and rights to get squashed"? When their children lie or steal do they just say, "Well, I guess your truth isn't my truth. It's all good."

 

The fact that "God is love" does not mean God has no standards or absolutes.

[Keenly]

I like that you said this. Because I think people expect Christian love to be some wimpy, spineless, conscienceless love.

 

The Bible calls God our Heavenly Father. How do parents love their children? Do they give them candy and unicorns and high self esteem and tell them to do whatever they want to? When they walk into a street with heavy traffic, do the parents just say "Aww, I don't want to stifle their individuality and rights to get squashed"? When their children lie or steal do they just say, "Well, I guess your truth isn't my truth. It's all good."

 

The fact that "God is love" does not mean God has no standards or absolutes.

 

So do believers then get to punish or legislate the activities of nonbelievers in the name of God? Because that negates the free will aspect. They have the freedom to not believe, and the freedom to choose to walk a path away from God, but these days so many people think that free will means the free will to agree with me.

[Keenly]

As an example, let's say for some reason god declared rock paper scissors to be a sin.

 

Let's also say I like to play rock paper scissors in my spare time. As an atheist, it doesn't bother me that it's considered a sin because that's not the way I choose to live my life.

 

 

Do the religious people get to make a law that say I can't play rock paper scissors and should be legally punished for it? I don't think they should be allowed to do that. To mandate my activities or behavior in the name of their doctrine. But that's how people vote. We talk about love and caring for your fellow man and everything that Christianity supposedly stands for, but in my experience it comes down to one thing. Compliance.

[autumnnight]

So do believers then get to punish or legislate the activities of nonbelievers in the name of God? Because that negates the free will aspect. They have the freedom to not believe, and the freedom to choose to walk a path away from God, but these days so many people think that free will means the free will to agree with me.

 

This one is hard for me to express well.

 

I do not believe you can legislate hearts and minds. And since my Bible says salvation is not by works, then I do not think legally forcing everyone to act like a Christian will, in fact, make them Christians.

 

I DO believe that as a Christian, if I feel something is bad for my country and community, I have a right to have a voice. For example, someone wants to build a strip club a block from m kid's school? I'm not gonna like that. A school wants to force politically motivated sex ed into a health class so I can't opt my kids out? I'm gonna have something to say about that. The Supreme Court makes a decision I do not agree with? I have the right to voice my disagreement.

 

Here is where I make a lot of Christians mad: The US is not a theocracy. Let me say that again - the US is not a theocracy. Now, irrational people everywhere just jumped up and down and will respond "so apparently you think we should all just shut up and let people kill babies and marry their cats!!!!!" However, if you read with comprehension and rationality, you will see that is not what I said.

 

What a lot of Christians want is for the government of 2015 to favor Christianity. Here is why that scares me. First, the first amendment makes it very clear that is NOT what the FF had in mind. Beyond that....there will come a day when the majority of Americans do NOT identify as Christian. If the majority or even just a group of loud voices can sway which religion the government favors....what happens when they voice shifts in a different direction? You want school prayer? If you follow the Constitution, that means ALL prayer. That means that my son will not only be taught the Lord's Prayer, he'll get to learn how to bow toward Mecca too. THAT is what the establishment clause means. And I would rather instruct my kids in our faith at home than have the school instruct them in every religion...and probably inaccurately at that.

 

That is just one example. The problem with Christians abdicating their responsibility to the government is that the government is fickle and increasingly secular.

 

It's just not a very good plan.

[Timshel]

I like that you said this. Because I think people expect Christian love to be some wimpy, spineless, conscienceless love.

 

The Bible calls God our Heavenly Father. How do parents love their children? Do they give them candy and unicorns and high self esteem and tell them to do whatever they want to? When they walk into a street with heavy traffic, do the parents just say "Aww, I don't want to stifle their individuality and rights to get squashed"? When their children lie or steal do they just say, "Well, I guess your truth isn't my truth. It's all good."

 

The fact that "God is love" does not mean God has no standards or absolutes.

 

Thank you Autumn.

 

We do differ a bit in that I do believe that God is in fact the Alpha/Omega, Beginning and Last.

 

To me, there is nothing unseen. There is no separation between what I think or feel or do and What Is. There is no wall/divide. Everything that I am and everything around are connected.

 

Judgement is what we do to each other. We are arrogant and simple; there is so much we do not know and I have tremendous humility for this.

 

Truth. If there is a singular Truth and I believe that there is, then I have to confess my ignorance. At the same time I think, what a Beautiful, Fantastic and Amazing Thing. To lose arrogance and assumption as our ancestors have so violently and ignorantly done. As so many humans continue to do......Surrender.

 

So I have respect for your Christian beliefs but I am not on the same page.

 

XO

Edited July 13, 2015 by Timshel

[autumnnight]

We do differ a bit in that I do believe that God is in fact the Alpha/Omega, Beginning and Last.

 

I believe this too, although the way we manifest it or think of it may be different.

 

I used to be right all the time, you know. I used to know I was better than "that girl" who got pregnant out of wedlock or "that guy" who gets drunk all the time or "that woman" who had an abortion. I knew better than to pollute my mind with Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson and two-piece swimsuits.

 

I knew that the Rapture was absolutely coming BEFORE the tribulation and that the only baptism that Jesus likes is immersion and that if your Bible is a paraphrase instead of a transliteration (which is better than a translation) then you were probably one of those carnal Christians.

 

I knew everything, and I was good...almost perfect, though no one ever could be. But me with my quiet times an Big Red Gothard notebook and New American Standard/King James Bible and vow to remain a virgin till marriage....I was pretty darn close. I would get a better mansion in Heaven than those people who REALLY needed God's grace because they had wild pasts.

 

Then I came to the end of myself and saw.....

 

And all I could really say, like that tax collector, was "God have mercy on me a sinner."

 

I regret every bad choice I have ever made, but in some ways the best thing that ever happened to my lily white self-righteous self was to fall on my face and realize I needed God's grace just as much as that drinking non-virgin.

[Timshel]

I believe this too, although the way we manifest it or think of it may be different.

 

I used to be right all the time, you know. I used to know I was better than "that girl" who got pregnant out of wedlock or "that guy" who gets drunk all the time or "that woman" who had an abortion. I knew better than to pollute my mind with Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson and two-piece swimsuits.

 

I knew that the Rapture was absolutely coming BEFORE the tribulation and that the only baptism that Jesus likes is immersion and that if your Bible is a paraphrase instead of a transliteration (which is better than a translation) then you were probably one of those carnal Christians.

 

I knew everything, and I was good...almost perfect, though no one ever could be. But me with my quiet times an Big Red Gothard notebook and New American Standard/King James Bible and vow to remain a virgin till marriage....I was pretty darn close. I would get a better mansion in Heaven than those people who REALLY needed God's grace because they had wild pasts.

 

Then I came to the end of myself and saw.....

 

And all I could really say, like that tax collector, was "God have mercy on me a sinner."

 

I regret every bad choice I have ever made, but in some ways the best thing that ever happened to my lily white self-righteous self was to fall on my face and realize I needed God's grace just as much as that drinking non-virgin.

 

I remember both of us posting about how gracefully a good southern woman can give the nicest insult.

 

We aren't far apart, we both love something greater than ourselves. Greater than our children even.

 

I wish you would get off the sinner thing though.

 

If the Truth is revealed to a soul; when someone passes and all is laid plain, would the Truth not be enough?

[Keenly]

This one is hard for me to express well.

 

I do not believe you can legislate hearts and minds. And since my Bible says salvation is not by works, then I do not think legally forcing everyone to act like a Christian will, in fact, make them Christians.

 

I DO believe that as a Christian, if I feel something is bad for my country and community, I have a right to have a voice. For example, someone wants to build a strip club a block from m kid's school? I'm not gonna like that. A school wants to force politically motivated sex ed into a health class so I can't opt my kids out? I'm gonna have something to say about that. The Supreme Court makes a decision I do not agree with? I have the right to voice my disagreement.

 

Here is where I make a lot of Christians mad: The US is not a theocracy. Let me say that again - the US is not a theocracy. Now, irrational people everywhere just jumped up and down and will respond "so apparently you think we should all just shut up and let people kill babies and marry their cats!!!!!" However, if you read with comprehension and rationality, you will see that is not what I said.

 

What a lot of Christians want is for the government of 2015 to favor Christianity. Here is why that scares me. First, the first amendment makes it very clear that is NOT what the FF had in mind. Beyond that....there will come a day when the majority of Americans do NOT identify as Christian. If the majority or even just a group of loud voices can sway which religion the government favors....what happens when they voice shifts in a different direction? You want school prayer? If you follow the Constitution, that means ALL prayer. That means that my son will not only be taught the Lord's Prayer, he'll get to learn how to bow toward Mecca too. THAT is what the establishment clause means. And I would rather instruct my kids in our faith at home than have the school instruct them in every religion...and probably inaccurately at that.

 

That is just one example. The problem with Christians abdicating their responsibility to the government is that the government is fickle and increasingly secular.

 

It's just not a very good plan.

 

But pole dancing would be such great exercise for the kids.

 

 

Ha, just kidding..

 

 

The day you speak of is coming pretty quickly, my guess is around 2030 is when we will see 50 50 split between Christian and Agnostic / other split.

 

Is there something in the Bible that I missed in catholic school that says spread the religion even to those who don't want it? By force if necessary?

 

 

Why is the existence of any other lifestyle other than the Christian lifestyle considered bad or evil or unacceptable?

 

 

My mom Is a hard-core born again Christian. And to be honest, it's embarrassing. She thinks that everyone is out to get her religion, and she thinks that any other lifestyle other than a godly one is unacceptable and even worse, she feels it's her place to talk down to people who have differing views than she does.

 

 

My mom is not a stupid woman, she's very intelligent and very articulate, but she has been absolved by what I can only describe as a cult. I've never seen a group as intolerant as her church.

[autumnnight]

As an example, let's say for some reason god declared rock paper scissors to be a sin.

 

Let's also say I like to play rock paper scissors in my spare time. As an atheist, it doesn't bother me that it's considered a sin because that's not the way I choose to live my life.

 

 

Do the religious people get to make a law that say I can't play rock paper scissors and should be legally punished for it? I don't think they should be allowed to do that. To mandate my activities or behavior in the name of their doctrine. But that's how people vote. We talk about love and caring for your fellow man and everything that Christianity supposedly stands for, but in my experience it comes down to one thing. Compliance.

 

I of course cannot come in and force you not to play rock paper scissors. However, if I felt that the widespread playing of rock paper scissors was damaging and hurtful to our country, then there is no problem with me voting for a candidate who is against rock paper scissors. That isn't legislating morality. That is exercising my right as an equal citizen.

 

I think that is what confuses people. Being pro-life, for example, if not trying to force morality. Being prolife is a stance regarding the value of all human life, and there is nothing wrong with supporting a candidate who agree with that. I don't really think I should have to pay for the health care of people who break the law to sneak into our country. But people who disagree with me have every right to vote for a candidate who supports that is that if what they believe.

[pureinheart]

I invite you to quote all the posts in which I said the Church should be silent.

 

And yes, I believe scraping and sucking apart a human baby is murder. I'm just not sure screaming at a 17 year old girl is the most Christlike way to spread that message

 

I used the term 'propaganda' for a reason, not to offend you, but to illustrate how the world/anti-life people pull out one incident to use as the 'poster child', per se, making the case for their agenda. The agenda being to discredit pro-lifers.

 

You said you volunteered at a Crisis Pregnancy Center, depending on your involvement, they deal with this type all of the time... it's always a play on words or situations because they have zero to really stand on.

[pureinheart]

So do believers then get to punish or legislate the activities of nonbelievers in the name of God? Because that negates the free will aspect. They have the freedom to not believe, and the freedom to choose to walk a path away from God, but these days so many people think that free will means the free will to agree with me.

 

Most of the prisons are not filled with prisoners in the name of God... they broke the law which stems from Christian values and secular values.

[pureinheart]

My mom Is a hard-core born again Christian. And to be honest, it's embarrassing. She thinks that everyone is out to get her religion, and she thinks that any other lifestyle other than a godly one is unacceptable and even worse, she feels it's her place to talk down to people who have differing views than she does.

 

 

My mom is not a stupid woman, she's very intelligent and very articulate, but she has been absolved by what I can only describe as a cult. I've never seen a group as intolerant as her church.

 

Can I ask what denomination or the name of whatever she follows is? Hopefully that is not being too nosy... I ask this for a reason. Some identify themselves as Christians or groups identify themselves in this manor, but they are cults.

 

A good example would be the Vineyard- they had to split because a few of their churches that were affiliated with them went off the deep end. It became national.. the snake thing...