As Christians should we be involved in ...

[Rejected Rosebud]

There's many definitions of 'love'. I love the sinner and hate the sin... I can love them, but not like what they do.

Well I agree with that but aren't we supposed to approach them with love as Christians?? I mean I have read alot of truly hateful things about people of Islam and President Obama and illegal aliens from people who say they are Christians on here ... I mean about the people themselves not what they're doing.

[BetheButterfly]

Good to see you, butterfly, as always the voice of love. You are a light!

Good post,

Grumps

 

Thanks Grumpybutfun,

 

Good to see you too, and read your words of wisdom!

[Timshel]

'politics' .... there you have it, I said it lol. I think if we don't take part in our communities and country, we will answer for that on the day of reckoning.

 

 

Should Christians be involved in Politics?

 

Here's my stand... please feel free to communicate yours:)

 

This thread has come a long way and my apologies for interrupting. It seems to be my MO.

 

No, in answer to the original question. It actually pains me to say so.

 

I do not believe that politics and religion should commingle. I believe that integrity, morality, tolerance and fairness should rule the land.

 

In my opinion, in respect to all faith, cultures and beliefs, the U.S.A should remain representative of such and strive to build this country on a foundation of equality and fairness for every tax paying citizen.

 

I believe that legislation and justice should encompass a common morality and common goals.

 

I don't believe that our country or any country will be successful in the long term without tolerance of differences.

 

As far as religion and spirituality are concerned with government; I don't see any path to universal compassion and teamwork while these things are dictated/monopolized by any particular sect.

[BetheButterfly]

Very well, and you???

 

Well, thanks!

 

 

Where is this coming from love? Concerning 'undocumented' are we speaking of illegal?

 

Yep.

 

The reason for this is Jesus's commission at that point in time was to be the perfect sacrifice for the sin of all mankind... it wasn't the 'time' for battle, although in Revelations, Jesus Second Coming, He leads the Battle of Armageddon and we are with Him.

 

I don't believe we fight in the Battle of Armageddon. Anyways, regardless of what he will do when he returns, his commands to his followers until he returns are clear.

 

I have to wonder what brought this up Bethy?

 

History and the present

 

Blessings!!!

[BC1980]

I actually agree with you on this. I believe our FF did intend to separate church from state, and defend religious liberty. I also believe they were Christians, and when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, they were being guided by their Christian beliefs. It's woven into the DNA of those founding documents - recognizing the fundamental rights of the individual based on what is endowed by our Creator. Our nation was founded on Christian principles, and I believe that is why we have enjoyed such unprecedented prosperity as a nation./QUOTE]

 

I still do not understand how Christianity, specifically, is woven into the founding documents. I think it would be nearly impossible to say that our nation was founded on Christian principles. Christianity is hardly the only religion to support the idea that humans have fundamental rights endowed by a Creator. You could actually say that the FF went against Christianity by only allowing white men who owned property to vote. We also supported slavery. Those two things seem very anti-Christian to me. Women and minorities had to fight hundreds of years to see equality, and, to me, it would seem that a supposedly Christian nation would have been founded on equal rights for all.

 

BTW, not all of the FF were Christians. John Adams was definitely a Christian. Thomas Jefferson was probably not.

[johan]

BTW, not all of the FF were Christians. John Adams was definitely a Christian. Thomas Jefferson was probably not.

 

This is a weak statement. But I agree with aspects of the rest of your post. I dont personally know whether their Bibles were opened up for reference while they drafted the Constitution or Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights. I also don't know which passages would necessarily be worded differently had the authors not been Christian. God is mentioned, but to go from there to the belief that they wanted a Christian state is a stretch.

 

I think they may have been cautious about the concept of an authoritarian Church, based on the reasons many people came to the US to start with.

 

I personally like to respect the church as a spritual entity that influences my life from the perspective of love. Like a parent or grandparent that cares but isn't going to step in and fix your every bad choice. As soon as that person starts meddling in your every day choices and dictating what you can and cannot do, the relationship breaks down. An authoritarian church will pay lip service to love, and make control the top priority.

[OpenBook]

I still do not understand how Christianity, specifically, is woven into the founding documents. I think it would be nearly impossible to say that our nation was founded on Christian principles.

 

This website explains it better than I could:

 

Christianity and America | Faith of Our Fathers

 

Some tidbits --

 

Website author: "The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution."

George Washington: (in his Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress on April 30, 1789, with his hand on a Bible which was opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28): “Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge."

 

John Adams (in a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813): "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

Thomas Jefferson (author of the Declaration of Independence, in a letter to Benjamin Rush dated April 21, 1803): “My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

[autumnnight]

If you read the first Amendment and understand WHY they came to America in the first place, I do not see how anyone could conclude that just because some of the FF were Christians that they intended to found a Christian theocracy.

 

Please explain this to me.

[OpenBook]

I dont personally know whether their Bibles were opened up for reference while they drafted the Constitution or Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights. I also don't know which passages would necessarily be worded differently had the authors not been Christian. God is mentioned, but to go from there to the belief that they wanted a Christian state is a stretch.

 

I believe this is a common misconception - that saying "America was founded on Christian principles" is saying "I want a Christian state." At least speaking for myself, I don't want the government sanctioning any religion. And I'd be the first in line to defend anyone's right to practice their own religion (or lack thereof) in this country.

 

But advocating (by getting involved in politics) for the passage, interpretation, and enforcement of laws that support Christian principles? You betcha!

[BC1980]

This is a weak statement.

 

Why do you say so? Jefferson and Adams are the only two FF I have studied in any depth, so I feel pretty confident in my statement. Have you studied those two, as well, and come to a different conclusion? Of course, only they know what is in their hearts, and I can't definitely speak for them.

[BC1980]

Website author: "The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution."

George Washington: (in his Inaugural Address to both Houses of Congress on April 30, 1789, with his hand on a Bible which was opened to Deuteronomy, Chapter 28): “Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aides can supply every human defect; that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes; and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge."

 

John Adams (in a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813): "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

 

Okay, but, specifically, what is Christian about the founding documents? What are these "general principles" of which Adams speaks? Washington's quote is even more vague and contains no mention of Christianity.

[OpenBook]

Okay, but, specifically, what is Christian about the founding documents? What are these "general principles" of which Adams speaks? Washington's quote is even more vague and contains no mention of Christianity.

 

Well, Free Will for one. Self-determination based on the choices we make.

 

In God We Trust, for another.

 

Swearing on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth for another. "God Bless the United States of America and this honorable court."

 

Of course I could really stretch it and say the triune structure of our government is modeled after the Father (POTUS), the Son (Congress), and the Holy Spirit (SCOTUS) - but I don't think anyone would believe me.

[OpenBook]

Here is a balanced, rational and well-written article that clarifies and magnifies what I'm trying to say:

 

Was America Founded As A Christian Nation? - Forbes

 

"The Founders disagreed on much, but were nearly unanimous concerning biblical morality. They understood the relationship between state and society differently than progressive thinkers today: government cannot mold man. Righteous men must mold government which requires the inculcation of virtue through vibrant churches and the transmittal of values generationally via a social structure based on families...

 

"America wasn’t founded as a Christian nation and many of our beloved Forefathers sadly were not, yet America was largely comprised of Believers. Liberty allows us to worship freely or not at all per conscience. America was never meant to be theocratic or homogenous religiously, but Christianity has always been indelible to our social fabric.

"The Founders, even non-Believers, considered that a blessing."

 

[johan]

Why do you say so? Jefferson and Adams are the only two FF I have studied in any depth, so I feel pretty confident in my statement. Have you studied those two, as well, and come to a different conclusion? Of course, only they know what is in their hearts, and I can't definitely speak for them.

 

Well, it more a comment on style than substance. You made a pretty powerful statement: they weren't all Christian. And the best support you offered was that you're "pretty confident" Jefferson probably wasn't. You threw down the gauntlet but it was on a rubber band.

 

Personally, I prefer to think they were all pretty devout. I like the idea that they had their Christian values right there with them as they drew up plans for the USA. I also prefer to think that they had their eyes wide open about it, and that they understood that the institutions of Church and government are best kept on separate tracks. Maybe they did consult their Christian values when deciding on particular governing principles, when those principles were consistent with a well-run state as opposed to a self-righteous one.

 

In my opinion, Christianity is only going to thrive in a land where the fertile ground is easy to find. The US is going to be the country for it to thrive in as long as people are allowed to choose to either be moral or immoral. Within the confines of laws that exist to keep peace and order.

[Qboro90]

Well, Free Will for one. Self-determination based on the choices we make.

 

In God We Trust, for another.

 

Swearing on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth for another. "God Bless the United States of America and this honorable court."

 

Of course I could really stretch it and say the triune structure of our government is modeled after the Father (POTUS), the Son (Congress), and the Holy Spirit (SCOTUS) - but I don't think anyone would believe me.

 

 

"In God we trust" was not something that the founding fathers of our country came up with whatsoever. It was first used on a coin in 1864 and then adopted as the motto on US currency in 1956. There has been much controversy recently over the motto and the Supreme Court ruling in 1974 stated the following :

 

"It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

[BC1980]

Well, it more a comment on style than substance. You made a pretty powerful statement: they weren't all Christian. And the best support you offered was that you're "pretty confident" Jefferson probably wasn't. You threw down the gauntlet but it was on a rubber band.

 

Personally, I prefer to think they were all pretty devout. I like the idea that they had their Christian values right there with them as they drew up plans for the USA.

 

Not really a gauntlet. If you have done any studying on the FF, there is a multitude of information on their religious beliefs. What I said is hardly a new idea. No, I didn't go into a lengthy post offering support. The information is readily available if you really want to find it. There's really no way Jefferson was a Christian if you go by the tenets in mainstream churches, but he does sway at times and claim to be a Christian. But his beliefs didn't align with mainstream Christianity, and he practiced his own brand of religion. Namely, he didn't believe in the Trinity. But like I said, all of that information is available if you are interested. There's no need for me to rehash it on this thread when there are plenty of books that do a better job.

[BC1980]

Well, Free Will for one. Self-determination based on the choices we make.D

 

Those ideas are not confined to Chrisrianity. I'm sure they originated long before. Also, the Puritans believed in predestination. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they were Calvinists to a large degree. They felt it was their destiny to take the land from the Native Americans and form a Christian society.

[autumnnight]

Well, Free Will for one. Self-determination based on the choices we make.

 

In God We Trust, for another.

 

Swearing on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth for another. "God Bless the United States of America and this honorable court."

 

Of course I could really stretch it and say the triune structure of our government is modeled after the Father (POTUS), the Son (Congress), and the Holy Spirit (SCOTUS) - but I don't think anyone would believe me.

 

How many of these things are actually in our founding documents, such as the Constitution, and how many are just traditions and practices. Even "under God" was not added to the pledge until the 1950's.

 

Look, I get that we believe there were Christian principles of morality in those founding documents, and I even believe that a number of the FF were Christians. However, we are really really reaching for tangible, concrete ways here. Did any FF actually SAY that our governmental structure is based on the Trinity? If so, they do not have a very Biblical understanding of the Trinity, because God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit do not need to check and balance each other

 

Our government was founded to be religiously neutral. That does not mean morally neutral,but it DOES mean that there is not to be any one type of religion that is "established" by our government. There is just no other objective way to interpret the Constitution.