Shocked! Asking men "So when are you going to sleep with me?"

[angel.eyes]

You're going to have to work on your confidence and learn to recognize when a guy likes you! That's your basic problem. If the only time you recognize a guy is interested is when he makes overtly sexual remarks, then you will filter out the "gentlemen" you seek to date and end up mostly with guys seeking sex.

 

Second, learn to flirt and to banter when a guy you like is being friendly with you. It's the equivalent of dropping a hankie. Many guys who like you will not come out and ask you on a date unless they have some sense that you might be interested. Dating is still very much a two-way street even if he is leading.

 

It's like salsa dancing. Sure the guy leads. But I can't just stand there. That doesn't work. I actively follow, and as I do, I signal via how much I embellish my moves (or don't) whether he can attempt more complicated steps with me or whether he needs to stick to more basic moves because he's dealing with a beginner.

 

Even though you're letting him lead, you're still very much an active participant in the dating process. How are you conveying your interest?

 

I know, I did all that in the past with men, but maybe I am stupid and unless a man tells me upfront that he likes me and wants to be with me, I will assume he is just being nice, friendly, chivalrous, etc. I am not confident enough, so I never dare to assume interest from these signs. It's just not clear to me. The only time a man's intentions were clear to me was when he started to make sexual remarks early on, I knew he just wanted a fling because he told me. But when someone smiles at me, talks to me about my interests? I tell to myself that he's just being friendly. Maybe it's weird, but that's me

[oldshirt]

You're going to have to work on your confidence and learn to recognize when a guy likes you! That's your basic problem. If the only time you recognize a guy is interested is when he makes overtly sexual remarks, then you will filter out the "gentlemen" you seek to date and end up mostly with guys seeking sex.

 

Second, learn to flirt and to banter when a guy you like is being friendly with you. It's the equivalent of dropping a hankie. Many guys who like you will not come out and ask you on a date unless they have some sense that you might be interested. Dating is still very much a two-way street even if he is leading.

 

It's like salsa dancing. Sure the guy leads. But I can't just stand there. That doesn't work. I actively follow, and as I do, I signal via how much I embellish my moves (or don't) whether he can attempt more complicated steps with me or whether he needs to stick to more basic moves because he's dealing with a beginner.

 

Even though you're letting him lead, you're still very much an active participant in the dating process. How are you conveying your interest?

 

 

This is all very well said above.

 

It's one thing to take the lead from the guy but too much passivity is dangerously close to being laziness and entitlement.

 

Men of quality and character have many options. If someone passive to the degree that they appear indifferent and uninterested, they will get overlooked and passed over.

 

Now realize too that most men are not good at picking up subtle signs of interest and receptivity in women.

 

What you may feel is brazen, over-the-top whorishness, a man may not even notice.

 

So while I don't think that you should issue overt sexual challenges as you described in your opening post, You will most certainly have to bump up your current game and push your comfort zones a bit.

[oldshirt]

Here's kind of a litmus test on the effectiveness of your current game.

 

If you are getting the kind of men you want and your relationships with them are generally satisfactory but none of them have worked out into your exact fantasy wish yet, you are probably doing ok it just hasn't worked out to the finish line yet.

 

If you are involved with caliber of men you want but they are ending more as ONSs and booty calls and slam bam thank you mams, then you are just giving it out too freely.

 

If you are generally going out with the type and caliber of men you want, but it's just not progressing past coffee dates and good companionship and discussions, then you are being too passive and nonsexual and need to bump up your girl-game more.

 

And if you aren't getting attention from the type and caliber of men you want at all, then you need to reexamine your entire package and bump up everything. You have to be in the league you want to play in. if you aren't getting attention and dates from satisfactory men in the league you want at all, you are going to have to work harder and get yourself into that league.

[redheaded-squirrel]

Where in Eastern Europe after you from?

 

The following post might be a little offensive bit here goes.

 

I was going to protest and say ' Hey, I know loads of guys who are gentlemanly, generous, intelligent and respectful.' Then I saw your location, Eastern Europe. My mum's side of the family are Ukrainian and Belorussian. I myself am half Eastern European I guess. The guys, whether from those aforementioned countries ( or Russia itself) are some of the most unrefined, miserable and rude people I have ever encountered. So I can understand and sympathise with your predicament.

 

There's seemingly an aversion in communist or ex-communist countries to displaying any kind of manners, or refinement, I guess behaving in a sophisticated, un-peasantlike manner would have got you shot or thrown in a Gulag decades ago. Chinese people are infamous for it, so much so that their newly wealthy spend tens of thousands coming to learn manners in finishing schools in Switzerland.

If you were to come to Western Europe you might have better luck, the type of guy you seek I hope is much less thin on the ground here.

 

Yes, you are pretty much right. I don't want to be too specific, so I'll just say I am from former Czechoslovakia. There's a lot of vulgar, post-communist "nouveau riche" types pretending to be gentlemen, but you can quickly see through that

 

I moved away 7 yrs ago, to Western Europe, actually. I have noticed that the men there are different, but on the other hand, women there are slightly more "emancipated" or more equally treated than in my home country (not sure how to describe it, but I hope you get the gist). Thus, the men I know abstain from open signs of chivalry so as not to treat the women as the unequal, weaker sex. At least that's what I have been told, what I have experienced, although others may have other experiences, I don't know.

[oldshirt]

Here's kind of a litmus test on the effectiveness of your current game.

 

If you are getting the kind of men you want and your relationships with them are generally satisfactory but none of them have worked out into your exact fantasy wish yet, you are probably doing ok it just hasn't worked out to the finish line yet.

 

If you are involved with caliber of men you want but they are ending more as ONSs and booty calls and slam bam thank you mams, then you are just giving it out too freely.

 

If you are generally going out with the type and caliber of men you want, but it's just not progressing past coffee dates and good companionship and discussions, then you are being too passive and nonsexual and need to bump up your girl-game more.

 

And if you aren't getting attention from the type and caliber of men you want at all, then you need to reexamine your entire package and bump up everything. You have to be in the league you want to play in. if you aren't getting attention and dates from satisfactory men in the league you want at all, you are going to have to work harder and get yourself into that league.

 

 

Here are the cheat sheet notes for all that -

 

-ONSs and booty calls = turn up the sophistication and interpersonal relations aspect and turn down the sexuality.

 

- Getting attention and dates, but no action and getting stuck in friend zone = bump up the girl-game, flirtatious and sexuality.

 

-not getting anything at all = work on everything and turn up everything.

[acrosstheuniverse]

She has been on several dates with younger men, since her divorce was finalised (2 years ago) and always asks them "So why are you on this date, with me? Be honest now. If it's sex you're curious about, we can appease that curiosity when you're ready."

 

That's very different from "So when exactly are you planning on f***ing me, finally?" Your friend is asking them their true intentions, letting them know that if it's casual sex they're looking for, she'd rather they were honest and she's open to it. It's different from going on a date with someone you quite like and could see it going somewhere and busting out the 'so when are you planning to f**k me?' question.

[redheaded-squirrel]

If you are generally going out with the type and caliber of men you want, but it's just not progressing past coffee dates and good companionship and discussions, then you are being too passive and nonsexual and need to bump up your girl-game more.

 

This. Absolutely right. Interacting in the right league, mostly not progressing past friendships/companionships.

 

Maybe it's me being nonsexual. That's why I was so shocked by the (overtly sexual) dating advice of my female friends. For example, I probably wouldn't bring up sexual innuendos in a conversation unless the man does that first, nor would I dress very seductively or compliment him "sexually", because either seems kinda cheap to me. But maybe because I don't do it, we never get past coffee dates as friends. As someone wrote in a post up here, finding the middle way is quite difficult.

[Gary S]

Yes, some women say that. No, they are not classy or lady-like. We call that poor breeding, or my favorite - trailer trash.

 

The way it works today is the same way it's worked for a very long time.... the man is the main pursuer (sometimes the women pursue and that's great from the man's perspective, but not for the lady) and he:

 

1) asks the lady for her number....

 

2) then boy calls girl and asks her out on a date.

 

3) boy kisses girl (or if she does not like him, girl turns her head and he gets a mouthful of hair, the dreaded hairball!)

 

4) Repeat steps two and three.

 

The rest will be worked out naturally if they are nice people and their dates continue to go just right. Any questions?!

[angel.eyes]

This. Absolutely right. Interacting in the right league, mostly not progressing past friendships/companionships.

 

...finding the middle way is quite difficult.

 

Not really. The middle ground is very easy. I've certainly never had to resort to sexual innuendo to get a date with someone I really liked.

 

Learn to flirt: eye contact, witty, playful conversation, and fun. You can make even the driest topic fascinating with that approach. If you're looking for a relationship, steer away from the crude, overt sexual propositions your friends suggest you use.

[lana-banana]

You can show interest without being sexual. Simply engaging in meaningful conversation, asking insightful questions, and paying sincere attention to the other person will take you almost all the way there. The best thing you can be is yourself; however, as a classics grad with a lot of highly educated male friends, I can guarantee comparing yourself to "Elizabeth Bennett" is going to put off many literate men.

[TunaInTheBrine]

No, what I have been doing is not working. My whole attitude, all my expectations somehow seem very naive, idealistic (at least to me and some other people as well). I wowed to never say this because I am an optimist, but the kind of men I am looking for are just dying out now.

 

And when I found a man like that, I was fed up with how we were beating around the bush. Geez, he was never direct about his feelings, but I like when a man has the courage to admit his feelings (major brownie points for him!)

 

On a side note: If a man confesses his feelings and the woman reciprocates them, great. If she doesn't, she will be flattered and that's it, she isn't gonna get pissed and cut off all contact, is she?! (At least I wouldn't...) But if a woman confesses first, the man starts avoiding her, treats the remaining friendship as if it was something uncomfortable for him, unpleasant even...I, as a woman, try not to let unreciprocated feelings affect my friendships and most of the time it worked, but men never do that for me, they never did...so I just don't understand.

 

I wonder how much of you wants to keep pursuing the kind of man and relationship you desire, and how much of you is looking for permission here to start acting like your lady friends. Do what you want that is true to you, not what society says you want or should be. You will only make the process that much harder on yourself in the long run. Men like the type you describe do exist. I'm one of them. We're out there, and you will find one of us. We're trying to find you too. Be patient.

[preraph]

Their advice is fine if all you want to do is get laid. There are side effects of being that direct about wanting sex when what you really want is love. Because at that point, you are absolving him of all responsibility to have a real relationship with you and saying "It's okay, let's just have sex." Now he thinks you say that to all the guys, too, so as unfair as it seems, most guy will mark you down for it. I think I'd do something not directly asking for sex. Like even a step down to "I've been wondering what it would be like to kiss you." Or less awkward, just picking a good moment and squeezing on them and being very touchy and not in an impersonal way.

 

OK, a squirrel is acting interested in depotting my fushia. I have to go now. It just reached down into the hanging fushia and came up with something to eat. WTF.

[katiegrl]

I will have to repost

 

I cut and pasted something and it showed up funky

[ltjg45]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend using that question if you want a relationship that can last.

 

Even though I am constantly horny and have to masturbate on a daily basis, if I saw a woman I am dating ask me that question, I would literally be caught off guard by it. Now, don't get me wrong, if I am really attracted to her, I would agree to it but I would never predict a woman just ask me such a forward question esp. on the first date. I never see myself as this gorgeous man that women wants to jump the bones of for sex and, if that was true, I wouldn't be a 28-year old virgin.

 

That is like me asking her if she wants to get boned because I am so horny and expecting a positive response in return and, well, I certainly don't see that ending well.

 

I do think guys like me, even if we have to masturbate for another few more months, would rather just let the connection grow slowly than going towards our wild sides instantly. It just feels more like us and not like the hyper aggressive guys would do.

 

Just keep looking. If anyone is trying to rush you, drop them where they stand and begin your search anew again.

[Lois_Griffin]

I told them that I am looking for a nice, respectable gentleman and an intellectual who wouldn't mind bringing me an occassional bouquet of roses, or having an interesting conversation about philosophy or politics, or law, whatever. My friends say that I would need three different men for this - a gentleman, an intellectual, and one that is good in bed, plus certainly someone 30 yrs older (I am 22). Am I naive or are they bitter about men?!

I think your expectations are certainly acceptable.

 

Unfortunately, since you're 22, you're not going to find that in a 23 or 25 year old. That will probably be your biggest stumbling block.

 

Young men in their early 20's aren't fully 'cooked' yet.

[katiegrl]

The rooftop scene (first date), from the movie, The Goodbye Girl, circa 1977

 

Paula:

Are we going to sleep together tonight?

 

 

Elliot:

Of all the "right up front" girls I know, you are the "right up frontest." How do you feel about it?

 

 

The DID end up having sex that night...fell and love, and lived happily ever after!

 

 

Women have ALWAYS been bold...nothing new.

[Lois_Griffin]

Since when are women supposed to ask men on the 3rd date "So when exactly are you going to f**k me, finally?"

LOL. Guys would have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than they EVER would of me uttering those words to them.

 

Is this how women really act nowadays?

[katiegrl]

It's funny...but I am normally a very reserved girl... however I DO believe I may have uttered something very similar to "are we gonna ***k tonight?" to my boyfriend (of five years) on our first date....in the heat of passion while lip locking and groping each other behind Croce's bar..... :)

 

I was a little crazy that night, so don't remember the EXACT words, but I do recall they were very similar.

 

Never understate a normally very demure and reserved woman while in a heat of passion!

 

It might even happy to YOU someday, OP!!

 

Just sayin...

Edited July 1, 2015 by katiegrl

[candie13]

reaching 40 is supposed to make one wiser and more experienced and not touched by dementia. Or desperate.

 

if you want to land yourself a bf, no matter how many boring dates you've had, you're to never ever ask him "when are you planning to fck me". if you want sex though, no problem. but you'll most prob never hear from him again.

 

how long have you been dating? How many dates? who initiated them? what did you do?

[katiegrl]

reaching 40 is supposed to make one wiser and more experienced and not touched by dementia. Or desperate.

 

if you want to land yourself a bf, no matter how many boring dates you've had, you're to never ever ask him "when are you planning to fck me". if you want sex though, no problem. but you'll most prob never hear from him again.

 

how long have you been dating? How many dates? who initiated them? what did you do?

 

Sweetie, when you're with the right guy...and the chemistry is just right.... you might be surprised how many men would love those words softly uttered from the mouth of that sweet, feminine, demure, reserved girl he just met!

 

Speaking from experience here darlin... Still together today...five years later.

 

Now whether he takes her up on her offer is a different story... but he will love it and, again, if she's the right girl (and vice versa) he's NOT gonna hold it against her...in fact the opposite. He will find it HOT causing him to want to see her MORE not less! Assuming she's the right girl of course.

 

Don't ever rule ANYTHING out. Anything is possible and not ALL men are the same.

Edited July 1, 2015 by katiegrl

[No_Go]

Well your friends just hyperbolized in a joking way in my opinion. I think the idea was to show your sexual interest (if you have it) in some way, not literally ask the guy

 

I would personally never initiate the first sexual encounter though, even the first kiss. Not because I'm being too traditional as a woman, but I want to see a guy that takes the initiative and is brave, and that is my test

 

If I were you, at 22 I wouldn't date guys over 30. Unless you're very mature you're probably having different life goals from them.

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

I had a very interesting conversation today in the ladies' gym I go to. I was raised as "a lady" with quite an old-school-ish views of dating (men should ask women out, women should be pursued, men should show interest first, etc. etc.) However, I have a few older female friends (in their 40s) who told me today that my dating expectations are unrealistic and that I am a "waity Katie" (kinda) and if I don't start chasing men and being upfront with them, I will end up alone.

 

I told them that I am looking for a nice, respectable gentleman and an intellectual who wouldn't mind bringing me an occassional bouquet of roses, or having an interesting conversation about philosophy or politics, or law, whatever. My friends say that I would need three different men for this - a gentleman, an intellectual, and one that is good in bed, plus certainly someone 30 yrs older (I am 22). Am I naive or are they bitter about men?! I was quite shocked about how they told me to wake up, but somehow, it does seem realistic (especially given my no luck with gentlemen...).

 

Also, they were shocked when I said that I have been on a couple of coffee dates with the kind of man I described as my ideal type, but that we have not moved forward after that, despite the fact that I very much wanted to and that we have known each other for 2 yrs. I understood it as him not being interested and I would never think of being so "direct" with him as to ask him on a proper date. I am just not like that - not that brave or open or courageous, whatever - to be chasing men. My friends say: You waited months for him to make a move?! You are crazy, you should have asked him after the 3rd coffee "So when exactly are you planning on f***ing me, finally?" and watch the facial expression of this refined young gentleman after hearing that line. They did give me several examples of how this approach always worked for them and I have to say that some of them are not quite 10/10 in the looks department, so I was surprised, shocked even...

 

Is this REALLY how dating works? Did I freeze in 1900s, together with my views on dating and its dynamics? Since when are women supposed to ask men on the 3rd date "So when exactly are you going to f**k me, finally?" It's either that I am naive, or I am a reincarnated Jane Austen or my friends are just plain crazy and really weird advice-givers. What do you think?

[mr_dave]

Sweetie, when you're with the right guy...and the chemistry is just right.... you might be surprised how many men would love those words softly uttered from the mouth of that sweet, feminine, demure, reserved girl he just met!

 

Speaking from experience here darlin... Still together today...five years later.

 

Now whether he takes her up on her offer is a different story... but he will love it and, again, if she's the right girl (and vice versa) he's NOT gonna hold it against her...in fact the opposite. He will find it HOT causing him to want to see her MORE not less! Assuming she's the right girl of course.

 

Don't ever rule ANYTHING out. Anything is possible and not ALL men are the same.

 

I'm glad to hear it's worked out for you!

However... it could have the adverse effect for a lot of guys when it is put into context against her normal behaviour.

Say you have met a really nice girl and she's quite reserved and has quite a LTR orientated past. Her feeling so passionate for you, so quickly is a rare occurrence and is indeed a huge compliment to the guy!

 

However, suppose she is very forward at the outset, but you find out that her past is littered with casual sex, ONSs etc. It loses any impact because she was just as forward with a ton of other guys. That's when a guy will be more likely to think of her as being easy and a bad bet.

 

I guess the worst case scenario is when a girl has leapt on other guys immediately but she doesn't show such immediate passion towards you, and you put in a lot of time and effort before it happens. If I were the guy in question I would feel slighted, like she didn't fancy me, whereas she couldn't control herself around other guys. A bad risk for cheating ...

[candie13]

Sweetie, when you're with the right guy...and the chemistry is just right.... you might be surprised how many men would love those words softly uttered from the mouth of that sweet, feminine, demure, reserved girl he just met!

 

Speaking from experience here darlin... Still together today...five years later.

 

Now whether he takes her up on her offer is a different story... but he will love it and, again, if she's the right girl (and vice versa) he's NOT gonna hold it against her...in fact the opposite. He will find it HOT causing him to want to see her MORE not less! Assuming she's the right girl of course.

 

Don't ever rule ANYTHING out. Anything is possible and not ALL men are the same.

 

it's got nothing to do with the right man, it has to do with me. How do I want to behave. Sometimes I want to take it more slowly. Sometimes the guy wants to take it more slowly. I respect that.

 

If I absolutely want to make sure that he understands that he's got the green light, I'll simply dress a bit more suggestively, sit a little bit closer to him and make sure I kiss the hell outta him. Worked with all men I met. No need to say anything. And he can take it from there or not.

 

In the end, it's not even about making it obvious, it's about playing it smart and not showing your hand. There are sooooo many things that can go wrong in a RS, I don't want my sexual availability to be a sore thorn later on. Some men take that sort of behavior just fine. Others are put off by it. Others say nothing but judge you for it. Why on Earth would I take that risk, if I think the guy might be right?

[redheaded-squirrel]

how long have you been dating? How many dates? who initiated them? what did you do?

 

Unfortunately, I think it's passé now with that guy. I just used him as an example. Due to our different locations, we haven't been able to meet since early this year, so we just exchange a message here and there as friends.

 

I was never really sure if he liked me or was just friendly and we never got past the coffee dates and lunches (5 or so, I don't remember exactly anymore). Sometimes it was me and sometimes him who initiated it, they lasted for hours, the longest for almost 5 hrs. At times I thought that he might have been interested, we'd talk a lot, he was very chivalrous, complimented me (occassionally belittling his own achievements and overtly highlighting mine - which I found odd), and what totally caught me off guard was how obviously nervous he was when he met my dad. All fidgety and stuttering, I still don't understand why....I have always been open about the fact that my dad is very important and very close to me, jokingly saying that he'd even have to approve of my boyfriends

 

So for my own peace of mind, now I just think that he was being friendly and a gentleman and that my mind was adding to it something that wasn't even there.

[katiegrl]

it's got nothing to do with the right man, it has to do with me. How do I want to behave. Sometimes I want to take it more slowly. Sometimes the guy wants to take it more slowly. I respect that.

 

If I absolutely want to make sure that he understands that he's got the green light, I'll simply dress a bit more suggestively, sit a little bit closer to him and make sure I kiss the hell outta him. Worked with all men I met. No need to say anything. And he can take it from there or not.

 

In the end, it's not even about making it obvious, it's about playing it smart and not showing your hand. There are sooooo many things that can go wrong in a RS, I don't want my sexual availability to be a sore thorn later on. Some men take that sort of behavior just fine. Others are put off by it. Others say nothing but judge you for it. Why on Earth would I take that risk, if I think the guy might be right?

 

Well...there was a lot of tongue-n-cheek in my post candie...but I hear ya!

 

Gotta do whatever is right for YOU! For me... being a normally very reserved gal who can count on her one hand how many men she has had sex with...when I met my boyfriend, it was like someone hit me over the head with a cast iron skillet LOL...and I wasn't actually thinking very clearly.

 

Neither was HE!

 

So we BOTH got a little carried away with the moment and just went with it. Wasn't even thinking about any future with him quite frankly, in fact I have mentioned this before, but I didn't even expect to hear from him again! I just "went with the moment" as they say. And whatever came from that was meant to be.

 

To my surprise, he DID contact me the next day, asked me out for that night and our RL took off from there...five plus years.

 

I guess my only point was that "sometimes" and maybe you are a bit more "level headed" about these things than I am ... it's exciting to just throw caution to the wind and go with what you feel at that moment.

 

For us, it was an awesome and memorable experience, in fact we STILL talk about that night to this day!

 

But again, you do what is right for YOU!

Edited July 2, 2015 by katiegrl