Blaming God or Religion or is it Both?

[OpenBook]

To those of you with complete faith in God's existence, if you did not feel God, would you still believe in him?

 

Yes. I don't "feel" God and I completely believe in Him. Feelings are fickle and unreliable. I've learned the hard way not to rely on them.

 

I'm fully aware that I'm way out on a limb here. There's no way I can prove anything to anyone about God. And I'm also acutely aware of my own limitations; there's no way I could fully comprehend Him. But I love Him and I believe in Him and I've witnessed and experienced His power. And that's enough for me.

[TheFinalWord]

answered these questions in 1980...why does this topic still require discussion?

 

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill

I will choose a path that's clear

I will choose freewill

[digdug75]

I'm not the kind of atheist that tries to prove that God doesn't exist. It doesn't bother me that other people believe in God. I just don't believe, myself, and my husband & I chose to raise our kids without religion.

 

Oh! I was just trying to clarify my response to your previous reply. Personally I think its great that your are providing society with a future generation with the values you have discussed. Not that my opinion matters. just wanted you to know!

 

Due to her own faith at that time, my mom was worried for me. The hell threat was a result of her frustration. She wanted me to believe, but no matter what anyone said, I just didn't. She thought the threat of hell might shock me out of it, I guess. However, it wasn't her reaction to my non belief that turned me off to religion or God. The skepticism was already there, and it wasn't just God that I didn't believe in. All at around age 5, I began questioning everything- Santa, Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, God. The things that adults had told me just didn't make sense to me, and I viewed God like these other fictional characters- as a lie. A lie told with the purpose of making kids/people happy.

 

 

Ok thanks for clarifying!

 

Of course I want my kids to visit me. My kids are free to be religious if they wish to be. They have been to church and have some religious friends. So far, at ages 19,12 & 11, they are not believers. It's their personal choice. Many millennials are atheist. I don't think this is happening because they blame religion, but for the same reasons I didn't believe. They don't feel God, so the concept of God/ Heaven seems farfetched because they aren't getting "that feeling" that makes people know there is a God.

 

 

About the question I asked about your kids. I feel the feeling you have towards your kids God has towards us. Going to church to me is like visiting lets say my spiritual parent at home.

 

To those of you with complete faith in God's existence, if you did not feel God, would you still believe in him?

 

 

Hmm! Like you I was raised Catholic. Like you God became for of an easter bunny type character. I had no feeling of God. Later in life I made a concentrated effort to find God if he existed due to a question presented on a late night radio talk show. I did find God not in a form of a feeling. Though after joining the religion I am in now. I have recognized acts of God and felt God.

 

I'm not sure where I got my values because my family of origin is a mess! I just have personal integrity- I don't want to be a liar or a cheater, and I treat people like I want to be treated. I want to be a good, honest person. I want to help those less fortunate and animals, and I've always been like that.

 

 

I had asked that question because of the theory that values/morals/ethics are the effect of evolution. Though I wonder if you didn't have parents if you would have the same values! It is said that a child from when they are born to the age of 8 the are really receptive, impressionable and learn many things from parents. I mean that is what some studies suggest.

 

I don't know how my life would be different with God, but I'm happy without him. Throughout my life I've faced poverty, disappointment, grief and adversity- without God. I don't pray and have never felt the Holy Ghost or anything like that. Even though I can see that many people find comfort in God and religion is a positive force in many lives, it's not possible for me to feel that comfort because it would be fake (to me).

 

Although I don't feel unhappy, I can see why some who believe in God would think atheists are depressed. We are viewing life without the influence of religion. We don't always have a friend who's listening. We aren't going to see our loved ones who've died again. We don't have an afterlife to look forward to. This is it! From a believer's perspective, the comforting love of God is real and I am very much missing out! It's just that because I don't believe, I don't look to God for comfort or peace, I soothe myself. I use healthy coping skills and have taught my children healthy coping skills. I understand that comfort is very real to those who experience it, though, and I do respect that.

 

I didn't mean to imply that you are unhappy or depressed! I asked a few questions to find out how you have come to the conclusion that you don't need God. From what I have read from your replies you have not experienced the existence of God in any manner. So I just didn't understand how you concluded that God is not needed. It seems to be the case that you have no interest in knowing if God exists or have tried to some degree and have found no satisfying result.

 

 

The bold letters was to show that for those reasons is why I think some religions proselyte. To provide that experience for those that are interested.

 

Regarding the judgment by Christians, I said "some" Christians judge. Certainly not all. Some Christians are judgmental, and some are open minded.

 

 

Thanks for correcting me. Sorry about that!

 

I'm not blaming their church for it, I'm just sharing my experience.[/QOUTE]

 

 

Ok thank you! That is why I ask questions and desire to be corrected.

 

 

I don't think prayer should replace real healing. For example, the Duggars. I think their strong beliefs in prayer and God may have influenced their reaction to their daughters sexual abuse by their son. It sounds like their focus on his sin and their daughter's forgiveness caused them to avoid real treatment, and I think that is a huge disservice to the victims and possible future victims. Even though prayer provides comfort and God provides guidance, faith should not be a replacement for medical treatment or justice.

 

Sorry I do not know much about Duggers. I watched a show about them a few years back when I watched television. I just recently heard about this sexual abuse driving to California to attend to some family matters. Ya prayer is very helpful in many things. I am not sure what you mean by real healing. Was the daughter beaten or is this an emotional issue your talking about? What form of medical treatment? For me and my religion the belief is that that the laws in country should be followed. Justice served in this world solves how the world views things. Then when final judgment comes judgment will come according to persons actions, intentions, hearts desire, knowledge, and thoughts. I understand your views though! God created the plants for the use of man. We are to learn as much as possible and to all we can for ourselves and when those things do not fix problem turn to God. Though my religion also teaches to pray continually. Some things good about medical field some things bad in my opinion.

 

 

Thanks for you patients and expressing your views. Showing me your views on things is beneficial to me and my life. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

[digdug75]

answered these questions in 1980...why does this topic still require discussion?

 

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill

I will choose a path that's clear

I will choose freewill

 

LOL! just my own curiosity. I wasn't aware this subject was discussed here before. Looking for possible ways to settle differences in hopes of some how finding a way of strengthening unity among Americans!

 

 

Realizing more that its just a matter of knowing when to just let it go. Those that want to communicate and understand will and those that don't won't and those that wish to slander will. Regardless on which side of the spectrum the person is on. Understanding is important but only becomes usefully when two side have the same desire to understand.

[TheFinalWord]

LOL! just my own curiosity. I wasn't aware this subject was discussed here before. Looking for possible ways to settle differences in hopes of some how finding a way of strengthening unity among Americans!

 

 

Realizing more that its just a matter of knowing when to just let it go. Those that want to communicate and understand will and those that don't won't and those that wish to slander will. Regardless on which side of the spectrum the person is on. Understanding is important but only becomes usefully when two side have the same desire to understand.

 

No problem, just teasing. You can run a search on some interesting discussions. Here's one:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/512449-question-christians-2.html#post6129903

 

Always nice to have another knowledgeable brother in this forum!

[digdug75]

No problem, just teasing. You can run a search on some interesting discussions. Here's one:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/512449-question-christians-2.html#post6129903

 

Always nice to have another knowledgeable brother in this forum!

 

Thank you for the link and compliment. This thread post I think has reached it's limit as far as responses. Checking out other threads to learn more is a good idea. Going to go through this thread one more time to see if I missed anything.

[umirano]

What do you mean religion based ethics? [...] What ethics do you feel is guiding politics?

 

In many countries religious dogma wrt to sexuality, medicine (assisted suicide, preimplantation diagnostics, birth control) are in the law and make people suffer and robs them of their freedom and often basic human rights. Religion is bad for society.

 

Fairytale? what evidence do you have to support that statement? No bearing on social facts. how have you come to that conclusion? No bearing on scientific facts. What scientific facts?

Do you also require evidence that the lord of the ring trilogy isn't a fairytale? Muslims believe that mohammed rode on a winged horse, christians believe that a man, who was also his own father, walked on water, hindus believe in a white monkey who flew over the ocean to save an abducted princess. I'd really love to hear why any healthy adult should not consider the respective religion to be an out of control fairytale.

 

Sorry but what is in bold print didn't make sense to me. Can you clarify? "Discard great philosophy and accounts of 99.9% of all religion" How have you come to this conclusion? what examples do you have?

 

I assume you don't believe in all gods that were ever worshipped. I assume you only believe in one particular god. This means you are an atheist with regard to all of the other gods. If there were, say, 3000 different gods worshipped over the course of human history and you are, say, a muslim, you're an atheist with regard to 2999 gods. Most of which you have never even considered, let alone have you studied the respective theology. Without even looking at it you discard thousands of pieces of literature, accounts of several dozen virgin births, uncounted miracles and godly interventions by gods whose names you have never even heard. You're essentially an atheist, if it weren't for the tiny exception that you're allowing (on what grounds, if I may ask?) for the belief that you follow.

 

Yes human values developed how? Learned how? long before who? is that chr. mean church or Jesus Christ? Do you have the facts to show your point of view is correct? What was the point of your post?

 

The way you phrase your questions give me the impression that you really believe only through god we can know what our fellow humans will feel about our deeds. Does that mean cattle and dolphins and birds also "know" god? As they don't spend their days making each other miserable, but instead show compassion and solidarity with one another?

 

Social animals communicate with each other. That's how we learn and teach about good and bad. No god needed for this. Especially not the god of the abrahamitic religions, who frequently engaged in genocide and infanticide. Again, I take great pleasure in the fact that such a god is highly unlikely to exist. If he did he should be tried for crimes against humanity.

[Weezy1973]

One of my thoughts to this question is this. How are we to resolve conflict in the United States concerning religion and non religious beliefs. Such as but not limited to God vs. religion, Science vs. Religion/God, violence vs. religion, individual vs. religion, understanding vs. not wanting to understand, interpretation of what is being said about a particular subject, ect... Many conflicts it seems with little ability to resolve as a whole. Possible in an individual basis. Negative characteristics seem to been seen from both sides. Yet if a person were to take the time the negative could become an understanding resulting in positive. At least that is how it works out in my mind. Of course many personalities and many variables involved.

 

OP, these are very important questions and what you're asking is really not just about the US, but strikes to the core of what it is to be human living in a society or community of other human beings. I really appreciate your tone and questioning nature! Asking questions is vital.

 

In my opinion, most Western countries are doing quite well with this "conflict". Pluralism is the norm. People accept that others may have different worldviews, but are no less of a person than anyone else. In the US, you have a Constitution that says people have freedom of religion. That is massively important. You can believe whatever you want, and that is protected!

 

The problem arises for the US in the implications of freedom of religion and that is the separation of church and state. Unfortunately in the US, one of your political parties does not abide by this. And that makes religion political, which it shouldn't be. Government should not be involved in religion and religion should not be involved with government. Even if the majority of the population is the same religion. Other Western countries for the most part have figured that out. The US has not, and that creates a lot of conflict.

[FleshNBones]

I do not understand why people that don't believe in God blame God for negative things of the world.

Why are some many people so irrational? They just are.

Religion vs. cults vs. branches of other religions. Why do all religions receive blame for negative actions of individuals or groups of individuals?

They are called scapegoats. It is an ego defense mechanism. I believe the accusers see themselves as being more evolved and superior. They are made of finer clay than the rest of us. But what they cannot resolve within themselves is that they too are human, and subject to the same weaknesses. How can a perfect and evolved being deal with primal, and even violent urges? They project those imperfections and weaknesses on to others.

It seems impossible at times, to try explaining, to a person that doesn't believe in God that asks why God allows such bad things in the world to happen. Do they not understand the concept of freedom?

I think they reject the idea that there is a father figure who they cannot overthrow but are held accountable for the choices they make. In some respects, this father figure may also represent an objective reality which they may also reject.

 

What is it that God denies them? My guess is primary narcissism.

I try to better understand another's point of view by asking questions. Yet it doesn't seem the same thing is happening from a none believer's side. A lot times questions from people that don't believe in God use questions in a form of attack? Not really wanting to receive an answer to better understand but to complain. Though I might be wrong. It is just how I am perceiving things written by others.

You must be talking about some laundry list of charges.

Without understanding God. Won't the blaming of God and religion continue? How are we as people on this earth going to be able to get along with one another without understanding another's point of view?

Maybe they do understand God. A rational god would be intolerable for an irrational person.

No servant is greater than his master. If they hate God, then by extension they must hate you.

Words like Judging, faith, belief, ect.. are used as if those words only pertain to religion or believers in God. Why? God is discussed quite often and takes blame for many things. No blame seems to ever be given to the opposition to God (satan) by people that do not believe in God.

The answer is simple, they are trying to assault God.

I am a very curious person and like to resolve problems. I am not sure how to resolve this problem. There are things that seem to not be taken into consideration by a person who doesn't believe in God.

Not every problem has a solution.

I have lots of questions for people that do not believe in God. Like faults found in scientific theories, or why some what me to prove to them that God exists? I wonder have those that don't believe in God ever used the tools given them to find God for them selves?(that is if they have been given tools) What is so offensive about, faith, love, charity, kindness, forgiveness, chastity, ect...? Without being able to explain these things. How is the blaming of God and religion going to be resolved? Seems to be similar to racism. Isn't understanding needed to compromise and resolve conflict?

There are people who don't believe because they never received God's word.

There are people who have received God's word, and they rebelled against it. There is no compromise with someone who is at war with you. I think the best you can do is humanize yourself (turn the other cheek). They will make every attempt to dehumanize you (label you as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.). Remember, you are a servant, and you will be treated as such.

I don't know. I have many of my own answers to these questions but like to receive replies. Even though replies may come in many forms negative, positive, or other! Just looking for other point of views and alternative ideas i guess.

I hope this has helped.

[TaraMaiden2]

Why are some many people so irrational? They just are.

I've never heard anyone who doesn't believe in God, blame God. I've heard plenty of people who don't believe in God, critiise the so-called God for letting things happen, if he is omnipotent and exists. There's a subtle difference.

They don't balme God, they question his so-called omnipotence and find it utterly irrational, which of course, it is.

 

 

They are called scapegoats. It is an ego defense mechanism. I believe the accusers see themselves as being more evolved and superior. They are made of finer clay than the rest of us. But what they cannot resolve within themselves is that they too are human, and subject to the same weaknesses. How can a perfect and evolved being deal with primal, and even violent urges? They project those imperfections and weaknesses on to others.

Or sometimes, actually, they're right.

 

 

I think they reject the idea that there is a father figure who they cannot overthrow but are held accountable for the choices they make. In some respects, this father figure may also represent an objective reality which they may also reject. What is it that God denies them? My guess is primary narcissism.

Curious that God is held to be male, but when you consider that most of the human tragedies of this world have been brought about by men in charge, it's easy to see why god takes the rap. Because if he exists, it's almost certainly justified. And I agree, god is the biggest narcissist ever...

 

 

Maybe they do understand God. A rational god would be intolerable for an irrational person.

No servant is greater than his master. If they hate God, then by extension they must hate you.

You can't understand God, That's the whole point isn't it?

The answer is simple, they are trying to assault God.

You can't assault something that isn't there. That's a Quixotic attitude.... Jousting at windmills.

 

Not every problem has a solution.

Yes it does.

It's just probably a solution that hasn't been considered as viable or sensible.

 

There are people who don't believe because they never received God's word.

There are people who have received God's word, and they rebelled against it.

..And there are people who having received ' god's word' finally understood it to be fraudulent, manipulative and utter conjecture.

There is no compromise with someone who is at war with you.

If that were true, we wouldn't be speaking to half of the nations on this planet, having been at war with them at one time or another...

 

I think the best you can do is humanize yourself (turn the other cheek).

This may not mean what you believe or think it means.

 

They will make every attempt to dehumanize you (label you as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.).

Curious because only humans have those prejudices.

 

Remember, you are a servant, and you will be treated as such.

Jeeves was a servant, and Wooster knew Jeeves was better than he was....

I hope this has helped.

More than you know.

[truncated]

Do you know of any society every in the world's history that was not influenced by religion or belief in God, or Gods? As far as I know religion goes back before the beginning of the Egyptian culture. I cannot find any society in history that was completely atheist. I ask because I do not know! What I do know is that atheism predated Jesus Christ birth on earth. I am unaware of any successful culture or society that was completely atheist. Do you have this information? Maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.

 

 

I apologize for late response. Currently there are some family matters that is taking up a lot of my time. Usually I have more time to read and reply. I am just to tired to write anymore. I would really like to discuss this with you as you seem to have more knowledge on this subject.

 

 

From what i understand, Buddhism is a religion that does not involve a god, but rather a man who wasable to achieve enlightenment.

 

I find that to be quite inspiring, as it gives hope me that every person has the ability to live a happy life, be kind to others, and do good work in the world.

[TaraMaiden2]

SOME schools of Buddhism have 'Gods' and other 'Buddhas' but these are just as temporary, impermanent and subject to the different conditions of Life as humans are. They just live longer (Rather like comparing a sequoia to a daisy...! )

 

These Gods primarily actually represent specific positive qualities, attributes, virtues and gifts that humans aspire to cultivate and develop, OR they are 'historical Buddhas' - people considered to have achieved enlightenment. This is mainly prevalent in Tibetan Buddhism and other Mahayana Schools.

 

But it's absolutely correct. Buddhism has no permanent, omnipotent, all-powerful Omniscient god-head.

[endlessabyss]

Throughout the history of the Soviet Union (1922-1991), Soviet authorities suppressed and persecuted various forms of Christianity to different extents depending on the particular era. Soviet policy, based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs.

 

 

The state was committed to the destruction of religion,and destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic teachings, and generally promoted atheism as the truth that society should accept.The total number of Christian victims of Soviet state atheist policies, has been estimated to range between 12-20 million.

 

 

Religious beliefs and practices persisted among the majority of the population,in the domestic and private spheres but also in the scattered public spaces allowed by a state that recognized its failure to eradicate religion and the political dangers of an unrelenting culture war.

 

 

 

 

Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

 

Religion is the root of all evil.

 

 

Atheist/Communists have always advocated tolerance.

[FleshNBones]

Do you know of any society every in the world's history that was not influenced by religion or belief in God, or Gods? As far as I know religion goes back before the beginning of the Egyptian culture. I cannot find any society in history that was completely atheist. I ask because I do not know! What I do know is that atheism predated Jesus Christ birth on earth. I am unaware of any successful culture or society that was completely atheist. Do you have this information? Maybe I am just looking in the wrong places.

Maybe atheism is an evolutionary dead end, or maybe they just can't compete with the theists.

 

I do wonder how many atheists are truly atheist. How do you function in a complex society without axioms, and some system of abstraction?

[FleshNBones]

Curious that God is held to be male, but when you consider that most of the human tragedies of this world have been brought about by men in charge, it's easy to see why god takes the rap. Because if he exists, it's almost certainly justified. And I agree, god is the biggest narcissist ever...

So in other words, females are more noble because they lack the capacity to do more harm.

 

I think of a father figures as someone who has expectations, and would hold you accountable.

I think of a mother figure as someone who makes no judgments, and only offers love.

You can't understand God, That's the whole point isn't it?

I am not buying it. Why have hostility toward something you are completely ignorant of?

You can't assault something that isn't there. That's a Quixotic attitude.... Jousting at windmills.

Don Quixote charged at what he perceived to be an ill tempered giant. Both he and his horse were nocked to the ground with incredible force, and his wooden lance shattered. Once he regained consciousness, he was able to see the windmill. He cursed the evil wizards for denying him a great victory.

 

The character Don Quixote was extremely delusional. Even in his delusions, he exercised poor judgment. He so desperately wanted to live out adventures in a romanticized version of the past that he formed his own fantasy world (cough cough, civil rights movement, cough cough). He neglected his responsibilities at home, and he took advantage of people like Sancho. Unsavory characters would play mean tricks on him. His delusions would lead him to mistake a normal passerby for an evil wizard. In general, he was a violent nut job.

..And there are people who having received ' god's word' finally understood it to be fraudulent, manipulative and utter conjecture.

Those are some serious charges.

If that were true, we wouldn't be speaking to half of the nations on this planet, having been at war with them at one time or another...

I will make this simple for you. Imagine there is a gang banger wants to fill you with lead so he can get some street cred. What is your compromise?

Curious because only humans have those prejudices.

Congratulations human, you too possess those qualities. There is no absolution. Al Sharpton can't purify you.

 

We are all sinners.

Jesus was not complimenting us when he called us sheep. Sheep have poor vision, they are stupid, and helpless against predators.

[TaraMaiden2]

So in other words, females are more noble because they lack the capacity to do more harm.

 

QED....

 

I think of a father figures as someone who has expectations, and would hold you accountable.

I think of a mother figure as someone who makes no judgments, and only offers love.

Not sure I get your point here...?

 

I am not buying it. Why have hostility toward something you are completely ignorant of?

Well, I'm not hostile. And perception is often deception. People are generally hostile towards things they either fear, or fail to understand...

Don Quixote charged at what he perceived to be an ill tempered giant. Both he and his horse were nocked to the ground with incredible force, and his wooden lance shattered. Once he regained consciousness, he was able to see the windmill. He cursed the evil wizards for denying him a great victory.

 

The character Don Quixote was extremely delusional. Even in his delusions, he exercised poor judgment. He so desperately wanted to live out adventures in a romanticized version of the past that he formed his own fantasy world (cough cough, civil rights movement, cough cough). He neglected his responsibilities at home, and he took advantage of people like Sancho. Unsavory characters would play mean tricks on him. His delusions would lead him to mistake a normal passerby for an evil wizard. In general, he was a violent nut job.

Yes.... Well, I could comment with regard to those who use religion as a justification for the violence they perpetrate...

 

Those are some serious charges.

Yes, and in a current court of law, he'd be found guilty.

I will make this simple for you. Imagine there is a gang banger wants to fill you with lead so he can get some street cred. What is your compromise?

Compassion. I actually would try to reason with him.

If he pulls the trigger, he's suffering more than I am.

Congratulations human, you too possess those qualities. There is no absolution. Al Sharpton can't purify you.

They're not qualities. They're choices.

 

We are all sinners.

Some more than others, some less. I think it best when we just worry about our own burdens, and don't try to judge others with that equation...

Jesus was not complimenting us when he called us sheep. Sheep have poor vision, they are stupid, and helpless against predators.

And as The Lamb of God, he was one himself. I think he ended up badly against his predators too, didn't he?

I classify him as a great teacher with unfortunate delusions of Grandeur....

[digdug75]

In many countries religious dogma wrt to sexuality, medicine (assisted suicide, preimplantation diagnostics, birth control) are in the law and make people suffer and robs them of their freedom and often basic human rights. Religion is bad for society.

 

 

Assisted suicide basically involves the speedy death of a severely ill person right? At what age if any should this be limited to? If assisted suicide is considered to be a good thing. Then why does the science of mental health attempt to cure such things as suicide? If one is good how can another be justified as being not good. Both suffer a great deal. How does a dying person suffer more, in a hospital being put on life support or a person dying without a hospital to prolong life? Does the medical field become the cause of suffering or the reduction of suffering?

 

 

Preimplantation diagnostics the idea that a child can be born and live a healthy life without disease! Fact or fiction? Are you suggesting that sciences belief of evolution is not efficient? Maybe science feels the process of elimination doesn't work fast enough and needs the creation of a machine by science to fix so called problems of not so perfect humans and by doing so creating possible perfect humans. I haven't done much studying of preimplantation diagnostics being used as a filtering system for possible genetic defects. Because of the possibility of adoption for a couple that cannot bear children. I just haven't put to much thought into this topic, and therefore didn't take the time to vote one way or another when presented with subject. I do not know the possible outcome of this form of creation. Do you?

 

Birth control is mainly meant for teen children right?(talking about current controversy) So they can experience sex and not get pregnant or at least the hopes of not getting pregnant. I think I was said that 6% of women still get pregnant while on birth control. What do those 6% of women do when they have become pregnant? I understand this is just the percentage of women/girls that have reported being on birth control. Who knows what planet parenthood has on such information?(confidentiality) Then there is the side effect factor of birth control pills. The three that gets my attention are decreased libido, mood swings in form of depression, and different sense of attractiveness towards males.

 

 

I am not sure nor do I have any facts that religion is the source of this thought processes. You do have a point in the United States about 90% is religious and about 5% atheist. Do all atheist believe the same about those subjects? I know not all religious folk believe the same about those subjects.

 

 

Yes freedom is awesome, and i have a great respect for freedom! Should certain freedoms be regulated? Who gives human rights if any "who" is involved? Should each freedom be looked upon as either a negative or positive effect on society? Is the right of the human the same as freedom? If human rights are the same as freedom. Why are they expressed in such as way as being different? For instance everyone has their human rights vs. everyone has their freedom to choose. I guess i just don't know the negative impact involving chastity, and adoption. Should state, federal, and local government have control on such freedoms as those you have pointed out to me?

 

Do you also require evidence that the lord of the ring trilogy isn't a fairytale? Muslims believe that mohammed rode on a winged horse, christians believe that a man, who was also his own father, walked on water, hindus believe in a white monkey who flew over the ocean to save an abducted princess. I'd really love to hear why any healthy adult should not consider the respective religion to be an out of control fairytale.

 

 

No i do not require evidence from you about those other religions. Just the claim you made on Christian beliefs as being fairytales. Would you like to better understand Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost? Your reply suggests you don't. I have a few questions for you about the subject of walking on water. Do you believe it possible that a Tibetan Monk has the ability to control body heat? Are all atoms connected or do they contact in some manner? If the belief is that a being has a complete understanding of all that is created on earth and had sent a son who has that same knowledge. Would it be fair to say the ability of the Tibetan monk is a form of control of those atoms? If it is possible for control of atoms to be obtained where is the limit for someone that has obtain perfect knowledge of such things?

 

 

 

I assume you don't believe in all gods that were ever worshipped. I assume you only believe in one particular god. This means you are an atheist with regard to all of the other gods. If there were, say, 3000 different gods worshipped over the course of human history and you are, say, a muslim, you're an atheist with regard to 2999 gods. Most of which you have never even considered, let alone have you studied the respective theology. Without even looking at it you discard thousands of pieces of literature, accounts of several dozen virgin births, uncounted miracles and godly interventions by gods whose names you have never even heard. You're essentially an atheist, if it weren't for the tiny exception that you're allowing (on what grounds, if I may ask?) for the belief that you follow.[/QOUTE]

 

 

Yes i believe in one God only. Isn't the definition of atheism the belief of NO god/gods. Not the disbelief in another God. What other Gods have i not considered or studied to some degree? What does several accounts of virgin births have to do with anything? Do you have a knowledge of all miracles/interventions by God/Gods? i agree i do not have a perfect knowledge of all those things you have expressed. How does this cause a similitude with atheism. That has no belief in any higher power or God. If i have a belief in God and do not agree with another's belief in God/Gods. The belief in God still exists. Are you suggesting that a person that believes in Gods knowing that i don't believe in the same Gods would call me an atheist, which is a believer in no God?

 

 

The way you phrase your questions give me the impression that you really believe only through god we can know what our fellow humans will feel about our deeds. Does that mean cattle and dolphins and birds also "know" god?

 

 

Let me try and clarify my belief. It is my belief that all life on earth was created by God. Therefore all life has a knowledge of God. Animal life and human life live by different laws. Because i believe in God from the scriptures. I also believe that Jesus Christ was known of, but called by different names since the beginning of creation by humans. I also believe all other religions are influenced by what was taught by God. When i say influenced i mean an individual or group of individuals took what they like or didn't like about Gods teachings and made there own belief. Do you see common things in all religions? One of the things i find interesting is how Buddhism was formed and how a similar tradition was used in Hawaiian culture. That is using the practice of oral information passed down until writing down information was obtainable, or writing was used. With Buddhism it would be the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama and with Hawaiians it would be ancestry. Still even Siddhartha Gautama or Buddha was influenced by religion. Though that formed his own belief. Whether the current belief is the same as belief taught by Buddha is unknown to me. Maybe a Buddhist will explain this to me. Still even Buddhist have different beliefs about teachings. I say this because of my belief of origin of all beliefs accumulated over the history of humans as far as i understand. Even Buddhist and Christians have some similar beliefs. Still just my own belief and opinion.

 

Social animals communicate with each other. That's how we learn and teach about good and bad. No god needed for this. Especially not the god of the abrahamitic religions, who frequently engaged in genocide and infanticide. Again, I take great pleasure in the fact that such a god is highly unlikely to exist. If he did he should be tried for crimes against humanity.

 

So because communications exist we identify good and bad? Have you ever felt the urge to do something you know isn't good? How did you acquire the knowledge of what is good? If you acquired this knowledge of what is good from someone else, then where did that person acquire his/her knowledge? If your knowledge was obtained by personal experience. What kind of experience did you have? What examples of genocide do you have? How has God committed any crimes against humanity?

[digdug75]

Why are some many people so irrational? They just are.

They are called scapegoats. It is an ego defense mechanism. I believe the accusers see themselves as being more evolved and superior. They are made of finer clay than the rest of us. But what they cannot resolve within themselves is that they too are human, and subject to the same weaknesses. How can a perfect and evolved being deal with primal, and even violent urges? They project those imperfections and weaknesses on to others.

I think they reject the idea that there is a father figure who they cannot overthrow but are held accountable for the choices they make. In some respects, this father figure may also represent an objective reality which they may also reject.

 

What is it that God denies them? My guess is primary narcissism.

You must be talking about some laundry list of charges.

Maybe they do understand God. A rational god would be intolerable for an irrational person.

No servant is greater than his master. If they hate God, then by extension they must hate you.

The answer is simple, they are trying to assault God.

Not every problem has a solution.

There are people who don't believe because they never received God's word.

There are people who have received God's word, and they rebelled against it. There is no compromise with someone who is at war with you. I think the best you can do is humanize yourself (turn the other cheek). They will make every attempt to dehumanize you (label you as racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.). Remember, you are a servant, and you will be treated as such.

I hope this has helped.

 

 

Yes this helps! Any information given to me from another's point of view helps me to understand others beliefs and views. Thank your for your reply.

[digdug75]

From what i understand, Buddhism is a religion that does not involve a god, but rather a man who wasable to achieve enlightenment.

 

I find that to be quite inspiring, as it gives hope me that every person has the ability to live a happy life, be kind to others, and do good work in the world.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Buddha study from other religions? Wasn't his main teachings from his influence of Hinduism? From what I have read there is different sects and beliefs among Buddhists. Doesn't the Tibetan religion believe in Buddha? Do they not have some kind of Gods in which they give purpose? It is my understanding that the majority of Buddhist do not believe in a God. Though this is not to say the beliefs obtained from the religious aspect first. Right!? What is the Buddhist belief of where the spirit originates from? When enlightenment is reached what then? Some Christian religion's also believe in a I guess you could call enlightenment. Some Christian religion's believe that knowledge of life and the universe is important, but the perfecting of such knowledge is unobtainable in this life. How many Buddhist have obtained enlightenment? how did they recognized that they received all known knowledge about life and universe?

[TaraMaiden2]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Buddha study from other religions? Wasn't his main teachings from his influence of Hinduism?

He abandoned Hindusim as Mistaken View....

From what I have read there is different sects and beliefs among Buddhists.

'Sects' is better termed as 'Schools' or 'Traditions'.

Doesn't the Tibetan religion believe in Buddha?

 

What's to believe? He was a man, he lived, became enlightened, and died. Tibetan Buddhism adheres as much to his primary teachings as any other School does....

 

Do they not have some kind of Gods in which they give purpose?

Have you not read my responses? I address that question in my post #62...

 

It is my understanding that the majority of Buddhist do not believe in a God.

Most Buddhists really don't care one way or the other. Coinjecture is a waste of time, as there is no an swer... But yes, generally speaking, they don't 'believe' in God. They don't need to.

 

Though this is not to say the beliefs obtained from the religious aspect first.

It's precisely because of previous religious aspects that most Buddhists reject the notion of an all-powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and divine eternal God....

Right!? What is the Buddhist belief of where the spirit originates from?

What 'spirit'...? We don't adhere to any concept of spirit or soul....

 

When enlightenment is reached what then?

"Before Enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood.

After enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood."

 

The difference is no attachments or agendas....

 

Some Christian religion's also believe in a I guess you could call enlightenment.

Which ones? What 'enlightenment' do they believe in?

 

Some Christian religion's believe that knowledge of life and the universe is important, but the perfecting of such knowledge is unobtainable in this life.

I'd agree with them. It's also a pointless and futile exercise or goal...

 

How many Buddhist have obtained enlightenment?

There's actually no accurate answer to that unless you're enlightened....

 

how did they recognized that they received all known knowledge about life and universe?

You obviously have no idea what actual enlightenment is.

It's not receiving 'all knowledge about life and the universe'.

You've either been watching too many movies, or been greatly misinformed....

[digdug75]

SOME schools of Buddhism have 'Gods' and other 'Buddhas' but these are just as temporary, impermanent and subject to the different conditions of Life as humans are. They just live longer (Rather like comparing a sequoia to a daisy...! )

 

These Gods primarily actually represent specific positive qualities, attributes, virtues and gifts that humans aspire to cultivate and develop, OR they are 'historical Buddhas' - people considered to have achieved enlightenment. This is mainly prevalent in Tibetan Buddhism and other Mahayana Schools.

 

But it's absolutely correct. Buddhism has no permanent, omnipotent, all-powerful Omniscient god-head.

 

Do Buddhist consider themselves anti-speculative vs the atheist who are considered to be speculative? I mean do you see Buddhism with more of a agnostic view point, rather than an atheist view point.?

[TaraMaiden2]

I'm not sure how you'd describe it. It's neither Agnostic nor Atheist.

A lot of Buddhists simply don't mind or care one way or the other whether God - as defined by Biblical and Christian scriptures - exits or not.

 

If he does - so what?

If he doesn't - so what?

 

Speculation is utterly pointless. A Christian arguing that he does, an Atheist arguing that he doesn't are both really pursuing fruitless goals. Neither one can prove their corner accurately and definitively, and neither one can accurately or definitively prove the other wrong.

Such conjecture - the Buddha advises - merely leads to vexation and is a distraction.

[digdug75]

He abandoned Hindusim as Mistaken View....

'Sects' is better termed as 'Schools' or 'Traditions'.

 

 

He abandoned Hinduism this I understand. What I do not know is why he would search among other religions? I also don't understand how it is not shown that he wasn't influenced by Hinduism in framing his own view on things? maybe you can send me a private message explaining if you so desire, or explain here if you so desire.

 

 

What's to believe? He was a man, he lived, became enlightened, and died. Tibetan Buddhism adheres as much to his primary teachings as any other School does....

Have you not read my responses? I address that question in my post #62...

 

In order to practice something wouldn't you have to believe? Such as Buddha became enlightened. Oh I thought there might be differences in some teachings between Theravada Buddhists and Mahayana Buddhists. There is no belief in an eternal Buddha or devas which I read is in the Pali Canon. I don't know and would like to know if its ok with you!

 

 

No I didn't read your post before I read and replied to post#61

 

Most Buddhists really don't care one way or the other. Coinjecture is a waste of time, as there is no an swer... But yes, generally speaking, they don't 'believe' in God. They don't need to.

 

 

It's precisely because of previous religious aspects that most Buddhists reject the notion of an all-powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and divine eternal God....

What 'spirit'...? We don't adhere to any concept of spirit or soul....

When enlightenment is reached what then?

"Before Enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood.

After enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood."

The difference is no attachments or agendas....

 

So then I am not sure how a body dies at still has the achieved enlightenment obtained while on earth. what happens when enlightenment is not achieved? How can a person be outside of self without a spirit? If your outside of self how would you know?

 

Which ones? What 'enlightenment' do they believe in?

Jainism, and monotheism. enlightenment is a state of change right/wrong? These religions believe in a state of change. enlightenment is gaining wisdom/knowledge right/wrong. These religions believe in gaining knowledge and wisdom. enlightenment is the relief of suffering right/wrong? Don't these religions desire the same relief of suffering through knowledge/wisdom? I know that is my belief. Don't these things need to take action to apply what is learned?

 

I'd agree with them. It's also a pointless and futile exercise or goal...

 

 

How is it pointless and futile?

 

There's actually no accurate answer to that unless you're enlightened....

 

 

Ok.

 

 

You obviously have no idea what actual enlightenment is.

It's not receiving 'all knowledge about life and the universe'.

You've either been watching too many movies, or been greatly misinformed....

ok then what is actual enlightenment. I must have been greatly misinformed. correct me!

[Rejected Rosebud]

I do not understand why people that don't believe in God blame God for negative things of the world.

I have never heard of people who don't believe in god blaming god for evils of the world. Maybe they use the evils of the world as an argument against the idea that god exists though, for many people it's hard to reconcile the existence of a loving all powerful entity allowing some of the suffering … and there has been lots of instances of organized religions being responsible for all kinds of evil all the way back to Jesus time!!! So that is a place that has to be very careful and in many cases has earned alot of suspicions though of course many are not guilty.

[digdug75]

I have never heard of people who don't believe in god blaming god for evils of the world. Maybe they use the evils of the world as an argument against the idea that god exists though, for many people it's hard to reconcile the existence of a loving all powerful entity allowing some of the suffering … and there has been lots of instances of organized religions being responsible for all kinds of evil all the way back to Jesus time!!! So that is a place that has to be very careful and in many cases has earned alot of suspicions though of course many are not guilty.

 

Thanks Rosebud! You seem to share a similar thought as a few others. This still helps me to be more understanding of where a non-believer is coming from. From my end, it is not simple to reply to such a question about God without explaining my believed purpose for being on earth, or explaining other things involving God. I have a question for you. I do not know if your religious or not. But if you were to ask such a question involving God and all the suffering in the world. If I were to reply as I have replied in this thread. Would you take it as an attempt to convert you to my ideals or beliefs?

 

 

Again thanks for your reply!