Blaming God or Religion or is it Both?

[jay1983]

Thought I'd post this.

[NGC1300]

I do not understand why people that don't believe in God blame God for negative things of the world.

 

They're not.

 

With regard to all of this worlds horrors, they're just pointing out that if your god were to exist, he would be either impotent or evil.

[umirano]

They're not.

 

With regard to all of this worlds horrors, they're just pointing out that if your god were to exist, he would be either impotent or evil.

 

Precisely. It's also problematic that believers think their twisted, religion-based ethics should guide politics for everyone.

 

Your particular fairytale has no bearing on social or scientific facts whatsoever. I refuse to be a subject to it.

 

May I point out to the believers on here that you're all atheists with regard to almost all gods that were ever worshipped? You discard all the great philosophy and accounts of 99.9 % of all religion. I just went one further. It's not that big of a step as you might think.

 

Btw, quietstorm, the golden rule, love thy neighbors, etc aren't christan values. They're human values. They have been codified long before chr. and will still be long after christianity became a historic, extinct religion, joining roman mythology, celtic mythology or the cult of ra.

[Mr Scorpio]

I remember thinking "I wish I could believe, it would be so nice to always have a friend who's listening and watching over you". I wanted to see my family that had died in heaven one day, but it made no sense to me.

 

This is a bit off-topic, but I believe it is worth pointing out in the spirit of understanding. Not only did I wish I could believe at a young age, I still wish I could at 35.

 

Who wouldn't want to believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who loves you, looks after you, and will reunite you with your loved ones for all eternity? Who wouldn't want to believe that good people will see their Earthly suffering replaced with eternal bliss, and wicked people will get their just punishment?

 

I point this about because, on occasion, I have heard it argued that it isn't necessarily that atheists don't believe in God, for God is innate and even the atheist knows that God exists. Rather, some folks have argued that atheists simply reject this innate knowledge because they don't want to submit to God's authority.

 

I wouldn't give up debauchery (or not even necessarily give up since I can seek forgiveness) in exchange for external bliss and avoiding eternal damnation? Well, it seems in the eyes of some that that is the case, and it just goes to prove how ignorant and arrogant atheists must be.

 

As for the other points recently raised in the thread, lets please keep it civil yeah? There are plenty of other sites we can go to for a good ol' flame-war.

[NGC1300]

Who wouldn't want to believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being who loves you, looks after you, and will reunite you with your loved ones for all eternity? Who wouldn't want to believe that good people will see their Earthly suffering replaced with eternal bliss, and wicked people will get their just punishment?

 

I point this about because, on occasion, I have heard it argued that it isn't necessarily that atheists don't believe in God, for God is innate and even the atheist knows that God exists. Rather, some folks have argued that atheists simply reject this innate knowledge because they don't want to submit to God's authority.

 

I wouldn't give up debauchery (or not even necessarily give up since I can seek forgiveness) in exchange for external bliss and avoiding eternal damnation? Well, it seems in the eyes of some that that is the case, and it just goes to prove how ignorant and arrogant atheists must be.

 

 

Arrogance?

 

Arrogance is believing that despite 1/4 million people drowned in a tsunami, god has big plans for you. That is arrogance.

[Weezy1973]

I am unaware of any wars that have been bought based on the "social science that seeks to describe the factors which determine the production, distribution and consumption of goods and services".

 

Indeed - I think we're arguing the same point here. It makes no sense to argue that violence breaks out because of "economics" but it would make sense to say that capitalistic interests were a factor in the Gulf War. It doesn't make sense to say "religion" causes war, but it does to say that Islam is a factor in terrorism.

 

I dare say that any behavior which is rooted in a belief in the afterlife can be attributed to religion, as it is religion that creates said belief. This would cover religiously motivated terrorism.

 

 

Except for some religions it would make absolutely no sense to perform any kind of violence due to their religion. Jainism for example is a religion where non-violence is one it's major principles. You would never see a terrorist attack in the name of Jainism, even though it is a religion. Therefore blaming religion as if it were one entity doesn't make sense.

 

 

But does religion not fit squarely within that definition? A set of principles (Christian values, ten commandments, etc) laid down by an authority (God and/or the church) as incontrovertibly true?

 

Granted, there is wiggle room where the various denominations are concerned.

 

Sure, but some religious people certainly are not dogmatic, and dogmatic thinking permeates many realms other than religion.

 

An open, empathetic, compassionate Christian who understands that different people have different paths that make sense to them and in no way claims to know that Christianity is the one true religion, is certainly not dogmatic in their thinking. And I suspect there are many religious folks like that, but they aren't very loud about it.

[pureinheart]

This is gonna offend a lot of people on here, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

 

Most atheist are usually depressed white people who were born into heavily religious families. The few who are black or non white act White as hell. They're just like Jesus freaks who are obsessed with their beliefs and look down on people who don't share their beliefs.

 

There are Buddhist who don't believe in god either and I've never had a problem with any of them. It's always athiest who seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

 

Interesting point. You realize you're profiling, right? Love it! It's weird because I can't think of one person in one section of my family that isn't Christian (or goes along with it). This section is predominately Hispanic/Indian.

 

When meeting/seeing people, I assume whites are nonbelievers and black/hispanic are believers.

[Weezy1973]

This is gonna offend a lot of people on here, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

 

Most atheist are usually depressed white people who were born into heavily religious families. The few who are black or non white act White as hell.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but would modify it to exclude the words "depressed" and "heavily". I would also speculate that it has more to do with wealth and the correlated education levels associated with that than it does race.

 

There's nothing about skin pigmentation that makes one more likely to be an atheist.

[autumnnight]

Of course God is gonna be blames, especially the Christian God. Haven't your heard? Christians are the only group it isn't wrong to hate....

[digdug75]

When I get through the million books I already have, I am going to purchase this:

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fields-Blood-Religion-History-Violence/dp/0307957047/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432850629&sr=8-1&keywords=karen+Armstrong

 

 

There are many variables at play in violence. Religion can be responsible some of the time, but most the time it is the fault of other things.

 

 

Radicals claim religion is some type of root of all the violence in the world, but even if religion disappeared tomorrow, violence would still exist.

 

 

One of the greatest, agnostic historians ever, Will Durant, claimed that religion has done way more good for society than harm.

 

Thanks for posting this book! Looks to be an interesting read!

 

 

This is great! I never heard of Will Durant! Forums are awesome!

[digdug75]

If unbelievers are asking questions in an attempt to attack your faith then it is to be expected. I don't think Christians have a right to expect that people who don't claim to be followers of Christ exhibit Christ like attitudes when asking questions. If a person does not claim to be a Christian then don't expect them to act like a Christian. If an atheist is asking questions with a mocking attitude then it is to be expected. The progressing Christian is held to a higher expectation to exhibit humility in their attitudes during religious discussions.

 

To expect that an unbeliever to have a Christ like attitude is like expecting a civilian to act like a Marine. It is to be expected that a civilian mindset about the world is going to be very different than a Marine's mindset. Those who sign up for the Marines are held to a higher standard of conduct than civilians. The same as those who sign up to be followers of Christ.

 

I see the point your making!

 

 

Agreed exercising humility during conversation very important. What is the key in relieving contention in such discussions? Do you have an opinion on this? Should the conversation just end? I have learned that once there is contention due to emotions sometimes anger develops and at that point communicating becomes pointless.

[jay1983]

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but would modify it to exclude the words "depressed" and "heavily". I would also speculate that it has more to do with wealth and the correlated education levels associated with that than it does race.

 

There's nothing about skin pigmentation that makes one more likely to be an atheist.

 

I'm calling it like I see it. Most athiest are depressed people people, I didn't just randomly come up with that. Plenty of black and Hispanic and middle Eastern pro athletes and celebrities, doctors, engineers etc who aren't atheist.

 

Must be a coincidence.

[Weezy1973]

I'm calling it like I see it. Most athiest are depressed people people, I didn't just randomly come up with that. Plenty of black and Hispanic and middle Eastern pro athletes and celebrities, doctors, engineers etc who aren't atheist.

 

Must be a coincidence.

 

First, it might be a coincidence, but I doubt it. And if it isn't a coincidence, why is it the pattern. That's a very interesting question. Why do you think atheism is more prevalent in white people?

[TaraMaiden2]

I'm an Atheist, and I'm one of the happiest people I know.

In fact, officially, THIS guy, is the 'happiest man in the World'. And it's official!

[NGC1300]

First, it might be a coincidence, but I doubt it. And if it isn't a coincidence, why is it the pattern. That's a very interesting question. Why do you think atheism is more prevalent in white people?

 

The "white" part is nonsense. Plenty of whites in Europe; which certainly has more than its share of atheists.

 

Depressed? Well, there could be some sort of correlation. When you are completely open to what the world is, whatever the truth may be, there's no guarantee your view is going to be consoling. It's usually quite the opposite.

 

In fact, there was a study if anyone cares to Google it, that people with higher intelligence were actually more prone to depression. Why this I'm not sure, but it could be people with higher intelligence are more analytical of the world, and thus are more prone to acknowledging what is, and not what they want it to be.

[jay1983]

First, it might be a coincidence, but I doubt it. And if it isn't a coincidence, why is it the pattern. That's a very interesting question. Why do you think atheism is more prevalent in white people?

 

Well I went over that in my previous posts. You say it's education. I say I don't think so, as most college grads aren't athiest. I think it's depression, overly religious parents and anger. Like I said when I worked in a pharmacy the number of who took antidepressant meds was.......well almost all were white.

 

Once again I'm not saying atheism is false and athiest are dumb, I'm just saying that's what I think leads people to atheisim.

[digdug75]

I don't believe in God, and I certainly don't expect anyone to prove to me that God exists. I accept that believers have faith, and that I don't share that faith. If there are faults in science, it's quite a leap to take that as evidence of God. But if you are a believer, I can see why you would say that. You have faith.

 

 

Doesn't faith apply to all human actions, whether it be faith in science, God, or simple tasks? Faults in science is not to show that God exists! Using science to discredit the existence of God, when faults in science exist is where I was going with that statement.

 

I was raised Catholic and was sent to church and CCD class, but it didn't work on me. Even at age 5, I just did not believe what others told me about religion or God. I felt like everyone in my church was being fooled, and I would think "Why do they believe this?" as I sat in church. I confessed to my mom, who told me I was going to hell. So I was never motivated to find God. I never needed him or prayer in my life.

 

Still I question is that religions fault or the individuals? I mean did religion teach your mom that is what to be said if a child questions "why do they believe this"?

 

 

[/quote=][b]Nothing offends me about those things. I raise my kids with many of the same Christian values- kindness, golden rule, don't steal, cheat, etc. But I just don't add the religious element. They are raised in a loving, intact family. They are good kids because we raised them to be good kids, not because they fear hell or seek eternal life or salvation. We raise them to be accountable to themselves and have personal integrity.[/b]

 

 

So you accept Christian values, but not the belief in God where those values are believed to have come from. Is my interpretation of what you wrote wrong? Please correct me if it is wrong. Its great that you have raised your children with such values. Self accountable and personal integrity even better. My faith teaches those things. Not everybody understands the importance of such things. I wonder when your children get older and move out, would you want them to come visit you from time to time?

 

[/quote=]I don't cheat on my husband because I'm not a cheater. I don't lie because I'm not a liar. I don't steal because I'm not a thief. If I did those things, I'd be betraying my personal standards and values. I don't need religion to keep me true to my values. I don't need God's forgiveness or the promise of heaven to be good.[/b]

 

 

Where did you get your values to begin with? To be good someone would have to know what good is wouldn't they? I mean how do you know what is good? What do you do if you fail to be perfect in those values? Gods forgiveness is only for those that desire to believe and want to obtain what God promises. As far as I know! Still you have scripture that tells of the gospel being preached to those that have left the earth.

 

[/quote=]So I don't think faith, love, charity, kindness, forgiveness, chastity are offensive...but what I don't understand is people who feel religion is necessary to have those values. You can be a good person, raise good kids, have a happy life, cope well with life's problems... without God.[/b]

 

Again where did you obtain your values? How would you know the difference between having a happy life, coping well with life's problems without God vs. with God? Have you experienced any answers to prayers, felt the Holy Ghost, or anything of that nature?

 

[/quote=]I think it's just about acceptance and tolerance. I raise my kids to respect all other religions, but it seems that Christians do not always respect non believers. For example, when my son heard from a kid at school about Jesus rising from the dead, he asked me if Jesus was a zombie. And I said "That is very disrespectful. Don't ever say that to someone who believes." Yet when my children say they don't believe, they'll get told by other kids they're going to hell. My kids are biracial, and they have faced more judgment for being atheists than being mixed.[/b]

 

 

Agreed acceptance and tolerance is important. Do you feel understanding is needed to gain acceptance and tolerance? Sorry to read that has happened to your children. Are children always obedient to there parents? I am assuming you don't mean all Christians. If you do mean all Christians please correct me. Judgment by a particular religion or individual?

 

[/quote=]My sister does believe in God, but because she is bisexual and has a GF at the moment, some of my extremely religious cousins are condemning her (these are Church of God type Christians), while my Catholic side of the family is loving and accepting of her. Why is that? Why does it seem that some Christians are just so judgmental? My sister was sexually abused as a child and faced many problems, and these Christians accepted her. She has stolen from family members (they accepted her). She is an alcoholic and an addict (they accepted her). She lost custody of her child (they accepted her). She had multiple married boyfriends (they accepted her). But because she has a girlfriend- they are bullying her on facebook, talking behind her back and excluding her from baby showers & cookouts. It's crazy.[/b]

 

 

I do not know why "Christians" do as you say they do with you. Maybe they are taught something contrary to the scriptures. Please note that when I say Christians it is my belief that all who believe in Jesus Christ are Christian. Regardless of difference of religion. Christian as being a religion I know little about. Seems to be so many different sects of Christian as a name for a religion. So I am not really sure if all religions with the title Christian on there church teach the same things.

 

[/quote=]I do accept that people have faith and respect that, even if it doesn't make sense to me. That's what everyone should do.[/b]

 

This is great that you have this kind of respect. I do hope people feel that I am respectful even though I am curious and want to understand how another's have come to believe the way they do about life. I can see what motivated you to develop your belief of religion. Thanks for giving me your point of view. I hope my reply didn't offend you. sorry about my response with bold letters. I have not figured out how to do the multiple quotes yet. It is different in this forum than others I have participated in.

Edited May 31, 2015 by digdug75

[TaraMaiden2]

(You need to learn how to quote..... )

[digdug75]

(You need to learn how to quote..... )

 

 

 

Ya just now figured it out! thanks Oh shoot I can't fix it!

Edited May 31, 2015 by digdug75

[digdug75]

 

What specific questions are you struggling to resolve?

 

Great question!

 

 

One of my thoughts to this question is this. How are we to resolve conflict in the United States concerning religion and non religious beliefs. Such as but not limited to God vs. religion, Science vs. Religion/God, violence vs. religion, individual vs. religion, understanding vs. not wanting to understand, interpretation of what is being said about a particular subject, ect... Many conflicts it seems with little ability to resolve as a whole. Possible in an individual basis. Negative characteristics seem to been seen from both sides. Yet if a person were to take the time the negative could become an understanding resulting in positive. At least that is how it works out in my mind. Of course many personalities and many variables involved.

 

 

Then when it comes to religion and the growing dislike of religion. I have many questions. While people some people don't ask to me to prove God exists to them some do! It is not possible for me to explain how proof of God can be obtained in a few words. I would need to explain belief on freedom, then belief of God being the Father of us all on earth. Then I would need to explain how family on earth relates to God according to my belief so on and so on. My questions I would like to know the answer to is this. Do all non believers in God have the same views? How does one individuals actions dictate a religion being good or bad (even 30 out of a 1000)? what do non-believers believe when it comes to the spirit/soul? What do they think about emotions? If science is there way to base truth from fiction. Why even bother to explore different detentions which cannot be seen? Has any non-believer ever tried to look for God? If so in what manner? What do they believe to be the purpose of life? Do they even believe there is a purpose to life? If the belief is death is the end of life! How then can life come back after death? like I said I am very curious and have lots of questions. The curiosity on the subject of religion and those that are not religious. Is me wondering how they came to their conclusions.

 

 

I have not met many non-believers that I know of in my life time. Today's communication is all that I know. And from my experience topics of religion, and politics are not to be talked about! That is outside of forums. I am grateful for these forums. I am able to learn more about others and myself. I hope this reply answers your question.

[digdug75]

You had asked "Why do all religions receive blame for negative actions of individuals or groups of individuals?". I am assuming that you are asking why an atheist would blame religion as a whole for the actions of, say, Muslim extremists.

 

 

An atheist or any non-believer that has not given themselves a label.

 

The logic (for lack of a better term) is the same for the non-believer because the terrorist beheads an infidel to please a non-existent entity who passed down commands thousands of years ago when many people couldn't even read them. The Christian votes against gay-marriage for the same basic reason.

 

 

So similar logic would be the belief in God? I don't know that the Qur'an which the Muslim religion is based requires such acts. Well at least not the original Qur'an. Don't extremist such as the Muslim isis fall under an existentialism belief? I won't get into marriage in the United States unless you want my opinion on the subject. I can say my belief differs as far as reasons of same sex marriage.

 

 

 

But, to use a rather obtuse comparison, would you say that heroin shouldn't be condemned, just because people could find some other way to get high?

 

 

I don't think I understand the comparison. On the one hand you have the belief in God and the falling away from God. Causing the some non-believers if not all to blame all religion for actions of a few. On the other hand you have drugs. Still the choice of the individual. Which drugs have no claim on religion. I mean drugs effect any individual religious or not if the choice is made to use them. Whether or not I think heroin should/shouldn't be condemned because of other means of getting high. I would say this. We have laws in the United States to protect us from the choices made by others who want to steal, and murder. If a person wants to do such things they should be free to do so. If they commit an act of murder, robbery, or some other crime that effects another's freedom then they suffer the consequences of that crime and choice to do drugs. (hypothetically saying any form of drug is legal) If one drug is illegal based on the fact it gets a person high. Then all drugs and forms of drugs that get people high should be illegal. I guess I should ask you what your views are on heroin and why its a good thing to condemn heroin? Are you comparing addictive behavior with a belief in God and following religion? Are you comparing people condemning a person because of choosing to do a drug with a non-believer condemning all religions and believers of God for making a choice that goes against Gods teachings?

 

 

The age of enlightenment is generally accepted to have been from the mid-15th century to the end of the 16th century. Karl Marx wasn't even born for another hundred years.

 

I'm guessing that whatever association you have between the two was suggested by someone who wanted to compare Marx (which most Americans consider "bad") with enlightenment (which I suppose some Christians might consider "bad).

 

 

I didn't mean Karl marx as one of the founders of "age of enlightenment". I just meant that Karl marx is perceived to have similar philosophical approach as those philosophers of age of enlightenment. His philosophy being good or bad according to the circumstances and laws his country had in his time is unknown to me. whether he was a good or bad person is also unknown to me. I have never met him. I have not read anything were he treated people poorly. I could be wrong though.

 

 

The only reason I did some research on him was do to his thoughts against capitalism. I was also referring to his philosophy of social science, and his thoughts on materialism. Yes I can see why Americans would see his views on socialism/communist would be a bad thing for the constitution and freedom. Personally I am a fan of Milton Friedman.

 

 

If you do want to read relevant philosophical treatises on the subject, look to David Hume, Rene Descartes, Voltaire, etc.

 

Thank you for pointing them out. I am interested in how they differ from other philosophers. If what they say conflict with Gospel.

 

 

But to answer your question, enlightenment emphasized reason and analysis, basically the core of the scientific method. To the non-believer at least, these concepts are entirely antithetical to theism. To wit, conversations here have included people asserting that they know in the heart that God exists." To the atheist, this isn't a serious inquiry. It is wishful thinking.

 

 

Thanks for giving me a basic description of the enlightenment philosophy. My belief in God goes beyond the feeling in the heart. My experience is something I hold sacred. Not much else I can say about finding God other than once a person truly finds God that experience is undeniable.

 

 

Thomas Jefferson in the Jefferson Bible dropped any passages dealing with miracles, visitations of angels, and the resurrection of Jesus after his death. He tried to extract the practical Christian moral code of the New Testament.

 

 

LOL cool something else I didn't know about "the Jefferson Bible". I really have to say this is so awesome to see how others come to form their opinions. Thank for sharing this info.

 

 

 

 

I do not know of any such culture. Nor do I even know for certain if atheism pre-dates religion, although I suppose there had to of been an atheist somewhere.

 

 

I didn't mean to suggest that atheism pre-dates religion. I was attempting to point out that in scriptures it shows that there were atheist at many points in scriptures. Before and after Jesus Christ birth.

 

 

Because I believe in God, and that man was created and not formed by accident. I believe religion is more of a way of living and meeting together is more of a reminder of responsibilities towards others, self, and God(much more than that but just a basic idea). I believe the existence of religion came about as soon as adam and eve left the garden of eden! As scriptures describe rules of God were known before we even had an earth. Like any family home! though a person would have to believe that what is written in scriptures actually happened. In order for that to be a person would have to receive a personal confirmation of the existence of God. In my opinion.

 

 

 

Yet, somehow, I'm supposed to believe that all of those cultures had it wrong, and Christianity had it right? Despite the parts of the biblical story that were "borrowed" from other religions?

 

 

What I would say to this is according to scripture the belief in Jesus Christ existed during the existence of those cultures and before. If a person believes in the God from the bible. Logic would suggest one God and one religion directed by God. Which religion that is, is up to the individual to search and find out. As far as suppose to believe. I would say you are suppose to believe what ever efforts you put into desired knowledge. If you do not desire knowledge of God. Then I wouldn't think you are suppose to believe anything in relation to God. Just my current thoughts may change as I learn more.

 

 

 

No harm caused by the delay in your response. Be careful to attribute too much knowledge to me. The older I get, the more I know that I don't know.

 

 

Thanks for understanding! I think many people have more knowledge than me in many areas. If I am wrong in one area. I like to know why! You have provided me with a different perspective without any argument. I hope I have provided you with the same thing in my replies. Most of my knowledge is centered in scriptures and branched out. Most of your knowledge (I am assuming) is centered in science and branched out.

 

On a final note, please refrain from quoting my post the way you did, as it makes it more difficult to respond. Have a nice day.

 

LOL ya I just figured the multiple quote thing today. I thought there was just something to click to add additional quotes. It wasn't working so I thought it was just my own computer malfunctioning. Though I tried to put in what I thought would cause a quote to appear, but had it slightly wrong. I didn't know it made it harder for people to reply. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Quiet Storm]

Doesn't faith apply to all human actions, whether it be faith in science, God, or simple tasks? Faults in science is not to show that God exists! Using science to discredit the existence of God, when faults in science exist is where I was going with that statement.

 

I'm not the kind of atheist that tries to prove that God doesn't exist. It doesn't bother me that other people believe in God. I just don't believe, myself, and my husband & I chose to raise our kids without religion.

 

Still I question is that religions fault or the individuals? I mean did religion teach your mom that is what to be said if a child questions "why do they believe this"?

 

Due to her own faith at that time, my mom was worried for me. The hell threat was a result of her frustration. She wanted me to believe, but no matter what anyone said, I just didn't. She thought the threat of hell might shock me out of it, I guess. However, it wasn't her reaction to my non belief that turned me off to religion or God. The skepticism was already there, and it wasn't just God that I didn't believe in. All at around age 5, I began questioning everything- Santa, Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, God. The things that adults had told me just didn't make sense to me, and I viewed God like these other fictional characters- as a lie. A lie told with the purpose of making kids/people happy.

 

 

So you accept Christian values, but not the belief in God where those values are believed to have come from. Is my interpretation of what you wrote wrong? Please correct me if it is wrong. Its great that you have raised your children with such values. Self accountable and personal integrity even better. My faith teaches those things. Not everybody understands the importance of such things. I wonder when your children get older and move out, would you want them to come visit you from time to time?

 

 

I do find many of the values that Christianity teaches to be positive values that I wish to instill in my children. But we choose to teach those values without the God/ Heaven element. If I'm wrong and God exists, he will make himself known to them without my influence.

 

Of course I want my kids to visit me. My kids are free to be religious if they wish to be. They have been to church and have some religious friends. So far, at ages 19,12 & 11, they are not believers. It's their personal choice. Many millennials are atheist. I don't think this is happening because they blame religion, but for the same reasons I didn't believe. They don't feel God, so the concept of God/ Heaven seems farfetched because they aren't getting "that feeling" that makes people know there is a God.

 

To those of you with complete faith in God's existence, if you did not feel God, would you still believe in him?

 

Where did you get your values to begin with? To be good someone would have to know what good is wouldn't they? I mean how do you know what is good? What do you do if you fail to be perfect in those values? Gods forgiveness is only for those that desire to believe and want to obtain what God promises. As far as I know! Still you have scripture that tells of the gospel being preached to those that have left the earth.

 

I'm not sure where I got my values because my family of origin is a mess! I just have personal integrity- I don't want to be a liar or a cheater, and I treat people like I want to be treated. I want to be a good, honest person. I want to help those less fortunate and animals, and I've always been like that.

 

 

Again where did you obtain your values? How would you know the difference between having a happy life, coping well with life's problems without God vs. with God? Have you experienced any answers to prayers, felt the Holy Ghost, or anything of that nature?

 

I don't know how my life would be different with God, but I'm happy without him. Throughout my life I've faced poverty, disappointment, grief and adversity- without God. I don't pray and have never felt the Holy Ghost or anything like that. Even though I can see that many people find comfort in God and religion is a positive force in many lives, it's not possible for me to feel that comfort because it would be fake (to me).

 

Although I don't feel unhappy, I can see why some who believe in God would think atheists are depressed. We are viewing life without the influence of religion. We don't always have a friend who's listening. We aren't going to see our loved ones who've died again. We don't have an afterlife to look forward to. This is it! From a believer's perspective, the comforting love of God is real and I am very much missing out! It's just that because I don't believe, I don't look to God for comfort or peace, I soothe myself. I use healthy coping skills and have taught my children healthy coping skills. I understand that comfort is very real to those who experience it, though, and I do respect that.

 

Agreed acceptance and tolerance is important. Do you feel understanding is needed to gain acceptance and tolerance? Sorry to read that has happened to your children. Are children always obedient to there parents? I am assuming you don't mean all Christians. If you do mean all Christians please correct me. Judgment by a particular religion or individual?

 

I do feel understanding is important on both sides. I do understand that many people believe in God and I respect that. I can't make myself feel God, though, so it's hard for me to truly understand how powerful that feeling is. I don't attack a person's religion or try to convert them to atheism. Regarding the judgment by Christians, I said "some" Christians judge. Certainly not all. Some Christians are judgmental, and some are open minded.

 

I do not know why "Christians" do as you say they do with you. Maybe they are taught something contrary to the scriptures. Please note that when I say Christians it is my belief that all who believe in Jesus Christ are Christian. Regardless of difference of religion. Christian as being a religion I know little about. Seems to be so many different sects of Christian as a name for a religion. So I am not really sure if all religions with the title Christian on there church teach the same things.

 

I don't know, either. I've experienced open minded Christians and very judgmental ones, and I have no idea what they were taught at church. I'm not blaming their church for it, I'm just sharing my experience. I certainly don't blame Christianity for the behavior of specific Christians, but I don't think prayer should replace real healing. For example, the Duggars. I think their strong beliefs in prayer and God may have influenced their reaction to their daughters sexual abuse by their son. It sounds like their focus on his sin and their daughter's forgiveness caused them to avoid real treatment, and I think that is a huge disservice to the victims and possible future victims. Even though prayer provides comfort and God provides guidance, faith should not be a replacement for medical treatment or justice.

 

 

This is great that you have this kind of respect. I do hope people feel that I am respectful even though I am curious and want to understand how another's have come to believe the way they do about life. I can see what motivated you to develop your belief of religion. Thanks for giving me your point of view. I hope my reply didn't offend you. sorry about my response with bold letters. I have not figured out how to do the multiple quotes yet. It is different in this forum than others I have participated in.

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Quiet Storm

[digdug75]

I don't think this is what happens. It is likely that non-believers are asking believers how they (the believers) can believe in a god that is good, all powerful, and all knowing, when negative things happen in the world. Or, how can a believer attribute good things to a god, but yet don't attribute bad things to that same god? It's the logical flaws that the non-believer is pointing out.

 

 

I don't think I have looked at a the question being asked in that way. thanks for pointing that out!

 

 

Well from my understanding and belief there are two forces at work in this world. One is of a pure negative nature and the other pure positive nature?(Satan vs. God) Then there is freedom/freewill. One force desires control the other desires freedom of choice. With my belief God is a father to all. Just as parents love there children, so does God love his children. When children reach a certain maturity, they go to school or attend some form of learning to learn how to live life amongst other things. This is the reason I believe we are here on earth. It is to grow, and learn. God already knows how to deal with all circumstances on earth. We as individuals don't. How is somebody suppose to learn something if it is always done for them? If a child hurts themselves do to whatever circumstance well lets say the child had touched an ant. Is this the parents fault for letting the child get hurt. Even more if the parents stopped the child from toughing the ant explained the possible dangers. does a child not touch the ant when parents are not around? Are parents at fault? If a child gets into some kind of fixable trouble or trouble that a child doesn't no how to overcome. If this child never ask parents for help. Is this trouble that the child had gotten into the parents fault for not responding to help child through trouble? Do you believe a person can experience Happiness without ever experiencing sadness? God does a have a perfect knowledge. He knows every single thing about every single one of us. He knows what we need to learn. He knows everything! With that perfect knowledge we have been given freedom to act for ourselves. To choose to help another when in danger. To choose to bring water to those who are dying of thirst. To choose to learn about many things. I understand from the non-believer a belief in God is an assumption to them. For me as a believer in God his existence is factual. This I know due to many things. To make it simple I know God exists because I have lived no knowing God exists. Until the age of 24 God was more like santa clause. So all the doubts of Gods existence have already presented themselves to me before I chose the belief I currently have.

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.[1] It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself. The term can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, public decrees, religion, or issued decisions of political authorities.[2]

 

 

So then I wonder do you believe in Ultimate truth? If so why is not possible for a being such as a believers God to have a perfect knowledge of truth? That same God giving guidelines to obtain understanding of that truth. Do you believe said truth can conflict with other said truth?

 

 

If your belief is dogmatic, if someone questions the logic or validity of your belief you will perceive as an attack, because in your mind you can't even conceive of the possibility that you might be wrong. That's dogma.

 

 

Sorry I should have been more clear. It is not the fact of being questioned about my believe that concerns me or bothers me. It's the unknown intent of the question being asked. I am fine if someone asks how can God let this happen with a desire to receive an answer from me. The hard thing for me is when a person asks how can God let this happen not wanting to hear explanation. Using the questions in a form of discrediting. If a person asks me how I know God exists it can be easily discredited by a person who has not experienced what I have experienced. For instance I can be telling a person about a commit and how I saw one in the sky at some point in my life. That person can discredit what I have seen due to lack of his/her own experience of such a thing.

 

You are assuming that God exists, which a nonbeliever does not.

 

 

No I am not assuming God exists. According to my life experiences God exists and his existence is fact. I can see how a non-believer not experiencing the same things as I have would consider my belief in God an assumption though.

 

Well, we can understand another person's point of view, and still think they're wrong. I understand why some people are racist, but I think they're wrong. Having a belief or an opinion does not make it true.

 

 

Yes I agree we can understand another's point of view and still think they are wrong. Can we make a statement to a person that there view is not true? Not having done the necessary things to find out the validity of that person's point of view. For instance if you told me the bible was just a story book of no real events. How would I know what you were saying were true? I would have to use all my available resources to find out if what you were saying was true. Coming to a conclusion based on my experience and resources experience and possibly new evidence.

 

 

I agree having an opinion or belief doesn't make something true when given to another person. For example if I were to tell a blind person that there is such a thing as color. Would that be true for him/her? If a blind person who has never seen or experienced color. My opinion or belief that there is color wouldn't be true to the blind person. Would it?

 

If someone were to tell me that they have prayed and the prayer showed no results. Therefore my opinion of prayer is not true. I would then ask what did that person prayed for?(money, new car, a bad miss hap of another person ect..) Then I would ask what frame of mind was involved in that prayer. Was the thought process I know I won't receive an answer so I will pray just to prove prayer wrong for example. Then I would ask what efforts were taken to receive the best outcome of the prayer? I would also wonder if the person understands in what way answers to prayers are received. Just a couple of questions I would have, but I am sure you get the idea. If not let me know.

 

Although I think religious people often use faith to describe themselves, and that's why it's often attributed to religion.

 

 

How do you see religious people using faith to describe themselves? I ask because I wonder if I do the same thing. I don't see how I would use faith as a description of me. My understanding of faith is more of a process then a description of me. Though maybe you can shed some light on this.

 

Nonbelievers don't believe in any gods or devils or demons or angels etc. They wouldn't be blaming any of the above.

 

 

No I understand this fact. When I non-believer asks me how can God allow this or that to happen. It is my impression that a person is placing blame. This may just be how I interpret things and something I need to clarify and work on.

 

 

Again, they may be asking these questions in an attempt to get the believer to open their minds to the possibility that their belief might be wrong.

 

 

Would this be considered a form of conversion? While I do not know all Christians or believers in God I can say for myself I am open minded. Though if being open minded is to deny what I know to be true. I don't see though if a person has taken all available consideration of a formed belief of the truth and a person presents no new information to consider. Is that then being close minded?

 

I tend to ask people a fairly simple question (and not only when it comes to religion): What would it take for you to change your mind? For people with dogmatic beliefs, that answer is inevitably "Nothing". In other words, no amount of evidence, facts, observations, logic, reason etc. would change their mind. Then I stop discussing it, because their mind is closed.

 

It is somewhat of a simple question but really isn't a fair question from my point of view. What you are asking is if there is anything that a person knows of that would change there minds of there belief in God. A person will most sure reply with no, because all knowledge that person has, has been considered. In that question you are also wanting to know how to convince a person of the error in there belief. Aren't you? If not than never mind. I guess a better question would be. If I had evidence that God doesn't exist would you be interested in this evidence or information?

 

 

I do not know what you think is ultimately true. So I will ask this question so you get an idea of how is see of what you are asking. We all drink fluids right. Everybody needs some form of fluid to continue living preferably water. Exceptions to the rule aside the body expels fluid through its designed process. What would it take for you to change your mind? That is if you except everybody intakes and expels fluid.

 

Science as a practice embraces it when people point out problems in a particular theory. In fact, if you can change a prevailing scientific theory, you would probably win a Nobel prize. This is the opposite of dogma. There is nothing that is considered true by authority.

 

 

I have been pondering the word dogma/dogmatic as I have been writing reply. Dogmatic is beliefs exceptive as authoritative basically right? isn't science presented in public school as accurate or true(authoritative). To the scientist who made the statement of theory to him may not be an act of dogma right, or a person that has looked at the theory or applied same experiment involving theory wouldn't be classified as dogmatic right. Some one who has been told the science and excepted it as truth would be dogmatic if no experiment of any kind was done. Right!?

 

If someone is making a claim about the nature of our universe, for example that a god created it, it makes sense to ask for evidence to support that claim.

 

 

Evidence! If I were do ask to be shown evidence that atoms exist. What actions and thoughts would need to take place in order for me to receive that evidence? How would I know what I was seeing was an atom?

 

All of the above are fine, but I take some issue with faith, just because faith (i.e. believing in something without evidence) can be dangerous.[/Quote]

 

Is personal experience evidence? Back to the atom example. Do you believe atoms exist? I can see that part of the definition of faith can be seen as dangerous. Sometimes I think about the process of faith and words tied to definition of faith like belief. wanted to post definitions of both words. to show you why I ponder both and why I feel that those words apply to many things. changed my mind!

 

 

I believe that being open minded is needed. That means questioning our own beliefs and admitting that we're fallible humans and we can be wrong. Regardless of what we believe. That would resolve a lot of conflict.[/Quote]

 

 

Ya I think your right being open minded is needed. I am not sure if a qualify as being completely open minded. I hope though that I have developed some degree of open mindedness. In regards to being fallible and admitting we can be wrong. For me humility has not been perfected. I think though I continue to do better.

 

 

The bold above is likely the most profound and accurate statement any of us can ever say. Asking questions, including of our own beliefs (which is hard), is important to not only personal growth, but also growth of society as a whole!

 

 

I appreciate your reply and am learning more, about what another may feel towards religion. Currently I am thinking I should ask more questions like "what do you mean". Because I seem to interpret things by what is said or written by others that in actuality is not a true interpretation of what was being said. Thanks for your input. I just replied to share how I see things. I realize you were writing in general terms, to reply to my post.

[digdug75]

Precisely. It's also problematic that believers think their twisted, religion-based ethics should guide politics for everyone.

 

 

Not sure where you are going with this. What do you mean religion based ethics? What ethics do you have conflict with? What ethics do you feel is guiding politics?

 

 

Your particular fairytale has no bearing on social or scientific facts whatsoever. I refuse to be a subject to it.

 

 

Fairytale? what evidence do you have to support that statement? No bearing on social facts. how have you come to that conclusion? No bearing on scientific facts. What scientific facts?

 

May I point out to the believers on here that you're all atheists with regard to almost all gods that were ever worshipped? You discard all the great philosophy and accounts of 99.9 % of all religion. I just went one further. It's not that big of a step as you might think.

 

 

Sorry but what is in bold print didn't make sense to me. Can you clarify? "Discard great philosophy and accounts of 99.9% of all religion" How have you come to this conclusion? what examples do you have?

 

Btw, quietstorm, the golden rule, love thy neighbors, etc aren't christan values. They're human values. They have been codified long before chr. and will still be long after christianity became a historic, extinct religion, joining roman mythology, celtic mythology or the cult of ra.

 

 

Yes human values developed how? Learned how? long before who? is that chr. mean church or Jesus Christ? Do you have the facts to show your point of view is correct? What was the point of your post?

[digdug75]

They're not.

 

With regard to all of this worlds horrors, they're just pointing out that if your god were to exist, he would be either impotent or evil.

 

I See! Yes I guess for a person that doesn't understand the nature of God this thought process would occur. Thanks!