What constitutes an EA?

[cocorico]

Maybe she was just giving her husband space with HIS family and friend. I know I don't always hang around when my husband has a friend over who is not also my close friend. I greet, offer refreshments and go on about my business. When the friend leaves, they usually seek me out to say good bye. That's how most people I know operate.

 

Perhaps. Though she had been sitting in the lounge, participating with his siblings and kids, prior to my arrival. When she went to the bedroom, they exchanged glances and the kids asked where she'd gone. I assumed she was shy, and gave her space.

 

In any case, so she doesn't participate in social media. Does she not have an email, a phone, a postal address? What prevented you from either sticking your head near the bedroom and saying goodbye or sending her a card to say thanks for having me, hope you two will be very happy, looking forward to getting to know you.

 

I did say goodbye, but didn't enter the bedroom (the door was closed). Perhaps she didn't hear me? IDK. I've no idea if she has email, or a phone. I'm not in the habit of mailing or phoning people (in a social capacity) if they haven't given me their number / email address to signify that they are amenable to hearing from me. That's just good manners.

[velvette]

No one is under any obligation to speak to anyone about anything, even under oath. Equally, no one is under any obligation to become, or remain, my friend. And if I feel someone is being intellectually dishonest - with themselves and with me - and I push them on an issue because I insist on honesty in my relationships, then they are free to refuse to go there, and to terminate the friendship of they choose.

 

 

.

 

Well, whether its an EA or not, it seems you have your answer as to whether or not the friendship should end.

 

 

Your friend, was not intellectually honest with you about his feelings until you became aware of them and asked him. At which point he more or less brushed it off based on your description.

 

 

Intellectual honesty would require discussing those feelings blah blah and then you will be in the territory where emotional affairs as described by those who claim to be in them begin.

 

 

But, really the bottom line for me would be why be friends with someone of the opposite sex who has romantic feelings for you?

[AlwaysGrowing]

I really like how you changed the word from affair to betrayal. I think it makes it easier to then quantify.

 

If most can agree that your friend is emotionally betraying his SO, then you can take action/inaction from that vantage point.

 

Do you want to be party to emotionally betraying his SO?

 

If yes, then one can say it falls under the umbrella of an EA....from both sides.

 

If no, then either phasing out the friendship or more clear boundaries......no more discussions about his marriage/SO, his feelings for you, what ifs, his daughters version of the past.

[whichwayisup]

Of course people can betray each other emotionally. Friends fall out all the time over emotional betrayals. But we don't typically refer to those as affairs, just as emotional betrayals. How would an emotional betrayal between romantic partners differ from an emotional betrayal between friends? IDK.

It just is different. Being invested in a friend is one thing, having emotional feelings when love is involved (aka your guy friend, not you, so it is one sided) is another. And when it affects others outside (his wife) it becomes a problem.

[velvette]

 

 

I did say goodbye, but didn't enter the bedroom (the door was closed). Perhaps she didn't hear me? IDK. I've no idea if she has email, or a phone. I'm not in the habit of mailing or phoning people (in a social capacity) if they haven't given me their number / email address to signify that they are amenable to hearing from me. That's just good manners.

 

I don't understand this logic and its contrary to what any etiquette book would tell you.

 

 

Its always good manners to thank someone after the fact for having you in their home for a special event. Presumably you had their address in order to show up at their home and you could have sent a note that required nothing of them in return. I cant imagine someone taking offense to a note thanking them for their hospitality or wishing them well on their new marriage.

 

 

The only reason for that would be if they were coerced into inviting you or didn't know you had been invited when you showed up. In which case, if I suspected that I would be asking my friend what was going on.

[Pinklotus]

CocoRico, you say you don't dislike the wife, but I don't think I've seen one positive word in this thread about her. Written by you, that is. Are you being honest with yourself about all this?why have you been participating in a friendship that is clearly frought with some issues surrounding his marriage and attraction for you. Weird and icky.

[DKT3]

I think its on each individual couple to decide what is an affair both emotional or physical within their relationship.

 

My SO (lovinDKT3) told me she doesn't expect or need me to be faithful at this point in our relationship. She did lay down some ground rules as to what she found "OK". So if I decide to be physical with another woman is that an affair? Not according to what was decided in OUR relationship. On the flipside, since there are women who she said are not options it would be an affair if I was involved with one of them. Our relationship our rules.

 

So as long as your husband is ok with it, and has a full understanding of the nature of said relationship then its not an affair according to what was decided in YOUR relationship.

 

There is no set or blanket rules for all relationships.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think its on each individual couple to decide what is an affair both emotional or physical within their relationship.

 

My SO (lovinDKT3) told me she doesn't expect or need me to be faithful at this point in our relationship. She did lay down some ground rules as to what she found "OK". So if I decide to be physical with another woman is that an affair? Not according to what was decided in OUR relationship. On the flipside, since there are women who she said are not options it would be an affair if I was involved with one of them. Our relationship our rules.

 

So as long as your husband is ok with it, and has a full understanding of the nature of said relationship then its not an affair according to what was decided in YOUR relationship.

 

There is no set or blanket rules for all relationships.

 

So in your relationship, it's okay to f*ck someone for the sake of just that, as long as there is no emotional connection and certain people aren't involved.

 

I would argue that it is still an affair, by the standard definition. A better way to put it is that she is willing to look the other way (in some cases). Not exactly a redefinition of the term IMO. But yes, it's between the two people in the relationship (and of course, the potential third person would have to be on that same page).

[Sub]

He has admitted that, were our respective situations different, he would allow "feelings". If an EA requires "feelings", those are present in this case - but from one side only. Hence my question - do those feelings need to be reciprocated to qualify as an EA, or is the simple presence of feelings (even from one side) sufficient to qualify?

 

I think it's definitely up to the line, as you're aware that he has feelings. And to say he would "allow" them if things were different....that's just verbal gymnastics. They exist. I think that awareness puts you in an awkward spot. As an H, I know I wouldn't be comfortable if my W had a friendship with a man who had feelings for her that would admittedly be acted upon if she wasn't with me. I mean....that very thing happened years ago before we were married. And the guy turned out to be - 10 years later - the OM in her A. Is your H aware of the feelings this friend of yours has?

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't think it makes it an EA cocorico. It's what you do that meets that definition or not - not just the fact that he has feelings, and it isn't reciprocated so it can't be an A.

[Southern Sun]

I think its on each individual couple to decide what is an affair both emotional or physical within their relationship.

 

My SO (lovinDKT3) told me she doesn't expect or need me to be faithful at this point in our relationship. She did lay down some ground rules as to what she found "OK". So if I decide to be physical with another woman is that an affair? Not according to what was decided in OUR relationship. On the flipside, since there are women who she said are not options it would be an affair if I was involved with one of them. Our relationship our rules.

 

So as long as your husband is ok with it, and has a full understanding of the nature of said relationship then its not an affair according to what was decided in YOUR relationship.

 

There is no set or blanket rules for all relationships.

 

Wow, so is Lovin playing by the same ground rules she is allowing for you? Or are they different for her? I think I've got whiplash.

[Clay]

Wow, so is Lovin playing by the same ground rules she is allowing for you? Or are they different for her? I think I've got whiplash.

 

I think lovin just felt she would do anything to get DTK back. It honestly doesn't sound like he would ever cross those boundaries but I do agree it is surprising to her someone say that.

 

Clay

[autumnnight]

Wow, so is Lovin playing by the same ground rules she is allowing for you? Or are they different for her? I think I've got whiplash.

 

I'd suspect she feels she has no choice, since she was wayward...IF those ground rules are actually true.

[William]

Folks, let's get back to what constitutes an emotional affair, in general, and keep responses relevant to the thread starter's original post. In any event, please do not speculate about the answers another member might provide to any one question. Definitely do provide answers from your own experiences with an emotional affair about how you did things or felt. Thanks!

[DKT3]

I'd suspect she feels she has no choice, since she was wayward...IF those ground rules are actually true.

 

Why would it not be true? Doesn't she post here as well?

 

Not to jack this thread, my point is infidelity is decided within the relationship and not by those on the outside.

 

Sun, my expectations of lovin are different then hers for me. I expect 100% fidelity. I can't answer for her. Nor did I push for that in any way. To clear up any confusion I have not had sex with any other woman. Sharing that information was simply to point out that infidelity isn't the same in every relationship.

[Susmay]

I don't know for sure whether it's an EA - probably not. But from what you described, which is all we have to go on, he is almost certainly conducting this "friendship" inappropriately, and may even hope to get into some sort of affair with you. From what you've described he doesn't seem to be respecting his wife or marriage nor being 100% honest with her. You also come across as being disrespectful of his marriage and wife, and you're very defensive about it all.

[Southern Sun]

Sun, my expectations of lovin are different then hers for me. I expect 100% fidelity. I can't answer for her. Nor did I push for that in any way. To clear up any confusion I have not had sex with any other woman. Sharing that information was simply to point out that infidelity isn't the same in every relationship.

 

I just find this fascinating.

 

So you define an EA or PA and hold someone accountable by your standards - but wouldn't hold yourself accountable by those same standards?

 

You require full fidelity of your own partner, but are perfectly fine not requiring it of yourself...as long as your partner doesn't ask it of you?

 

So it's your SO that defines whether something is an affair or not?

 

You have no standards of your own? You just tell everyone else what to do?

 

I'm starting to think you should step off your moral high horse once in a while. I think maybe your view has gotten skewed.

[DKT3]

I just find this fascinating.

 

So you define an EA or PA and hold someone accountable by your standards - but wouldn't hold yourself accountable by those same standards?

 

You require full fidelity of your own partner, but are perfectly fine not requiring it of yourself...as long as your partner doesn't ask it of you?

 

So it's your SO that defines whether something is an affair or not?

 

You have no standards of your own? You just tell everyone else what to do?

 

I'm starting to think you should step off your moral high horse once in a while. I think maybe your view has gotten skewed.

 

Nice attempt to turn this into a personal attack. What your saying has nothing to do with anything.

 

My point is, infidelity is what is decided with in the relationship. Whatever kind of relationship two or more adults have is their business. What you call my moral high horse is what I call being honest with those involved.

[123321]

Any relationship you are compelled to deceive your SO about is an EA.

[CrystalCastles]

You also come across as being disrespectful of his marriage and wife, and you're very defensive about it all.

 

Quoted for truth. You know cocorico, I find your story kind of confusing. You keep reiterating that you bear your friend's wife no ill will, yet you eagerly trash her? Of course she is worried! I am sure if your husband went sniffing around some other woman claiming to be his friend, you would be worried too.

 

If you truly care about your friend, you need to reaffirm your boundaries and give him space and time to get over his issues. You need to respect their marriage, which you are not doing. Your friend's first duty should be to his wife, not to you.

 

You require full fidelity of your own partner, but are perfectly fine not requiring it of yourself...as long as your partner doesn't ask it of you?

 

Lovin, DKT's wife, cheated on him. I think once you cheat, you kind of lose your ability to call the shots...

[Hope Shimmers]

To me, what constitutes an EA is two people entering into a relationship that is emotionally close beyond that which would be present for a friendship or would be acceptable to any existing relationship partners.

 

Affairs are well-defined to all of us, for the most part. My opinion.

 

What people find acceptable in their own relationships is all well and good, but it doesn't 'define' infidelity. In any given relationship, there can be a very well-established definition and acceptance of it being an "open marriage" or "open relationship", but that should be nailed down and agreed upon by both partners, and then the whole issue of infidelity or affairs is null and void. When the definition is not mutually agreed upon by both partners and is dynamically changing all over the place at the whim of one or another person, none of this applies.

 

Just my dos centavos.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Hope Shimmers
stupidity

[Hope Shimmers]

Lovin, DKT's wife, cheated on him. I think once you cheat, you kind of lose your ability to call the shots...

 

Except once you decide to reconcile with that person, then you do lose that ability.

[cocorico]

Thanks, all, for some very interesting views and discussion. It seems there is no consesus on whether or not this (or similar) would constitute an EA, but that the friendships is "inappropriate " since his wife disapproves.

 

To clear some things up - I don't dislike his W. I don't know her well enough either to like her or dislike her. By all accounts she's very sweet, and devoted to him, and I'm inclined to feel positively toward people who treat my friends well.

 

However, what I repeated here (which some have ascribed to me dissing her) was *his* description of her early on, long before the M, at the point where he was considering getting involved with her but having doubts. My view then (which, if presented with the same info today, would still be my view today) was that if you yourself describe someone in such terms, you lack sufficient respect for them for a relationship to be sustainable, and you should tread carefully. Obviously he either chose to disregard my view, or he discovered "more to her" which overrode his initial concerns, because he did get involved with her and did marry her.

 

I only found out about his alleged "feelings" for me after his adult daughter messaged me. It has not characterised our friendship, presumably because he knows I don't feel the same and would become a problem for me knowing he felt that. So yes, he has been less than honest with me, and yes, that is an issue for me. OTOH, my H (who has met him) knows I don't feel the same way, and it's not an issue for him. He doesn't think I should let it get in the way of what has been a good friendship over a long time. I'm less convinced.

 

Speaking about my friend's M, or mine, has long not been part of our friendship. We live in different countries most of the year, so dropping in on each other or long, late night phone calls are definitely a thing of the past. Our communication is now purely online, and about things we are both passionate about, but not of a personal nature (like politics, current events, etc). We even discuss religion less and I suspect he may be considering returning to church, since it matters a great deal to her. I very much doubt anyone would find anything inappropriate in the contents of our discussions. It's been that way for a long time, changing organically with our circumstances.

 

His daughter does not like his wife. She hated the school his wife works at (she attended it only briefly) and it may date from that. I'm not sure if the dislike is mutual but I do know his wife refused to attend his daughter's wedding. His daughter converted in order to marry a man of a different religion (and race) and his wife had religious objections to attending a service in the holy building of another religion. Whether her dislike prompted this latest messaging, or something else entirely, IDK, but it have never been in the running to play that kind of role in her life, however well I get on with her.

[Southern Sun]

Nice attempt to turn this into a personal attack. What your saying has nothing to do with anything.

 

My point is, infidelity is what is decided with in the relationship. Whatever kind of relationship two or more adults have is their business. What you call my moral high horse is what I call being honest with those involved.

 

That's funny. You take personal shots at me all the time.

 

You're claiming that if you're 'honest' about it, suddenly having an affair is okay. But all that is is a set up for manipulation (at least I was 'honest'!) and future hurt for all parties involved. It might sound prettier but the end result is simply not. There is still hurt and pain on every side of the fence and what is really irritating is somehow you think you are RIGHT because you can say, well at least I told them the truth. It is arrogance. What about how people FEEL?

 

Sure, I guess you can say infidelity is "all relative" when that works for you. I do understand that some people choose open relationships and the like and seem to be fine with that. However usually the standard is applied both ways.

[WasOtherWoman]

I probably have an odd view about this (LOL especially having married my MM fifteen years ago) but I think, in general, close friendships between married men and women are not appropriate.

 

My husband and I do not have close friends of the opposite sex. We have co-workers, who we keep at an arm's length and we have friends that we are both friends with, but neither of us go down the path of getting close with a member of the opposite sex, even if only friends. It cannot lead anywhere good, in my humble opinion.

 

This is just one of the ways that we safeguard our marriage. Even in business neither of us would even have lunch alone with a member of the opposite sex. I have really never felt deprived that I don't have men friends... I love my female friends and my husband is my best friend.

 

Why take the chance on something turning into an EA? We all know it happens.