What constitutes an EA?

[truncated]

Based on what you write, it sounds like this guy's wife saw something in his communications with you, or something else in the way he was acting about your relationship, that made her question what was going on.

 

It's interesting that his daughter knows he feels this way about you. I don;t know if you mentioned it or not, but how does she know he feels that way? Did he tell her, did she see something or did she figure it out in a different way?

 

One thing to keep in mind as well is that your personal boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior between two friends and what crosses the line into flirting may be very different than other people's. What to you may be platonic may seem to others to be flirting.

[carhill]

OP, since you have the benefit of analyzing your perspective both before the daughter disclosed this information as well as subsequent, how does this strike you? What is different now from before, if anything? Why?

 

The questions sprung from reading postings outlining where it takes two to have an affair; where one person is unaware and non-participatory, it wouldn't meet the definition of affair. IOW, one could be 'the friend' and have no idea another 'carried a torch' for them and is acting in a transparent platonic manner as any friend would; then, boom, a disclosure like you got. What changes? Do the same interactions garner a different flavor due to knowledge? IDK. How would disclosure change, or not change, the dynamic of knowingly or unknowingly enabling the inappropriate behaviors and feelings? Prior, being undisclosed, you may have been unknowingly feeding his 'torch' fuel. Not affair? Affair?

 

Interesting stuff. I explored a lot of this stuff in MC due to the nature of my own EA. Many sessions were spirited debates between the psychologist and myself, of course with me initially defending the EA. He wasn't easily dissuaded! We worked the details.

[Minnie09]

Yeah, the way he dismisses his w's feelings in order to continue the "friendship" is not cool. She has a reason to feel hurt, since she apparently knows he's been infatuated with OP. Labeling her "insecure".......typical response of someone who knows exactly what he's been up to. Anyhow. Is it an EA or not doesn't really matter here. If he's drawn to somebody else than his wife AND his "object of desire" isn't interested in conducting anything other than a "friendship" - what does that result in? The friend zone. But the decision to put the whole thing in the friend zone wasn't made by him, it was made by op - which makes his wife second best. And not only that.......he continues the disrespect by calling her insecure. So, if you, coco, want to hear that it's NOT an EA, because A,B,C doesn't apply, I say "true - it's not an ea, because it's one-sided, but it's still ****ty behavior on his part." And moreover, you're playing into that, by responding and keeping in touch and disrespecting his W.

[AlwaysGrowing]

For myself, I have learned through the years to quickly tell male friends or male co-workers who start to complain about their SO..."shouldn't you be saying this to your SO?".

 

Also, for myself....if I was to engage in conversations concerning their emotional/relationships....I would be encouraging/participating in an EA. I would be party to emotionally betraying their SO privacy.

 

A friends role should never include an equal...heck even a partial voice in regard to their relationships. Steering someone towards IC/MC is as far as I will go.

 

If an opposite sex friend hinted at having deeper feelings...I think it would be wise to end the relationship...as I am not interested in fostering those feelings...even unintentionally. It would be recognizing that what I viewed as friendship...they took as "dating me". And that would creep me out.

 

Have you questioned yourself...why you felt the need to ask him about this? Knowing that you were asking him to divulge private conversations between a husband and a wife? More importantly...why was it important enough for you to ask? How or will it change your interactions going forward...knowing that his wife is uncomfortable with it? Does it only matter if your husband is comfortable with it? Do only three people get a voice? And if only three get a voice....does it not make the fourth correct...that they are on the outside and should be on guard?

[cocorico]

 

The things I've bolded in your post are also part of why his wife may be suspicious. I had to laugh when I read them. I was like let's see...this man is your friend but he thinks of you as the one who got away (and apparently voiced this to his daughter of all people who then told you), he STILL carries a torch for you, he only married his wife as a rebound because he thought he lost you, you don't like his wife, she's also never met you, yet you and her husband are close friends...but she is an insane jealous woman for thinking something is wrong with this friendship. Okay...

 

I do not dislike his W. I've met her once, briefly - I didn't see enough of her to get an impression. My telling him at the time he asked that I didn't think she was a good fit for him was based on how he described her to me. If you're describing someone in such terms - dismissing her intellectually (he's a medical doctor with several postgraduate degrees; she did not complete high school but got a typing diploma and works as a secretary - he considered this an intellectual mismatch); politically (he's liberal, she's conservative - in my country that's seen as backward); spiritually (he used to be religious, but has moved on; she's very religious) and socially (he socialises mainly with other doctors, academics, and politicians, because of his line of work. She feels uncomfortable with his colleagues and professional associates), etc, then you clearly do not respect them in ways I would consider necessary to sustain a LTR. That he's now dismissing her concerns as "one of her insecurities" suggests that he still does not respect her sufficiently. IMO that's not what a marriage should be made of.

 

And... She has met me. Shortly after they married, he had a birthday party and invited me, in part so we could meet each other. His sister and brother and his kids were there - I seemed to be the only "non-family" person as far as I could tell. when I arrived, she greeted me, offered me tea, and then went and sat in the bedroom until I left. at the time I thought that was odd, but his brother and sister exchanged glances and said something along the line of "she's like that" and I thought perhaps she was just shy.

 

Curious: why didn't you ask him about what his daughter said? Wasn't that more curious to you since you see him as just a friend and now found out his feelings are not 100% platonic? I would think you'd address that aspect. How are his admitted feelings not being questioned and the wife's are when she is right to suspect her husband doesn't see you as just a friend?

 

I did ask him about what his daughter said. I thought I'd clarified that earlier. I asked him (a) if it was true he had been forbidden to be friends with me; and (b) if he considered it to be an EA. he admitted that, were we not both M, he might allow "feelings", even though he knows they are not reciprocated. He knows I don't fancy him, and don't consider him a prospective lover. He also knows I love and value him as a friend.

 

I do not expect my husband to have a female friend who explicitly dislikes me, where he is telling our child he carries a flame for this friend, where he's admitted to the daughter or the friend that he's rebounded with me because he lost her, where she and I have never met, and where he values talking to this "friend" more than he values our relationship to where he belittles my legitimate feelings and tells this "friend" I'm just insecure. This guy is an asshat. If he doesn't respect or value his wife, then leave her be, but don't tell your kid you have a torch for some other woman to the point your kid is telling the woman she wishes she were her stepmom, then turn around and act like the wife is insane for finding this troublesome...I mean come on

 

The daughter is a grown woman. He did not tell her he was carrying a torch for me - the daughter read this into his behaviour over the intervening years. The daughter and I were quite close many years ago - he was a single parent (he got sole custody after his divorce) and I was also a single parent, our kids were the same age, the daughter had problems at school and I advised him on which school system to send her to (the one my kid of her age was in) and I helped her through her eating disorder as a teenager. When depression hit her in her first year at university I advised him and counselled her, having lived through something similar myself. He would bring his kids around and hang out at my place; or I would visit him and we'd hang out there. I was around quite a bit when they were growing up, because friends are. If she is retrospectively putting a different gloss on it, perhaps something has triggered that, IDK. I know she was never in favour of him marrying his current wife, though her brother was less vocal about any reservations he may have had.

[cocorico]

Exactly, it hardly matters if its an EA, because its been an inappropriate friendship since OP involved herself in whether or not her friend should marry his wife. Not to mention, OP probably missed that the whole reason it was brought up to her in the beginning was to get her reaction to the fact that he was marrying someone else if its true he had feelings for her.

 

Not really, no. We were discussing many things - I was falling in love with my H and kicking against the idea, and talking through why I found the prospect so terrifying; he was reminding me of things I'd said I valued, and howmthismaligned with my values rather than being in opposition to them; he was conflicted about pursuing a R with her (this was long before M) for the reasons stated, but she was actively pursuing him and he wasn't sure how to respond. I'd suggested casual dating with her but she was apparently not into anything other than a serious LTR with a view to M (she'd been widowed, had a kid with emotional problems). Talking about our Rs was something we did - amongst all kinds of other topics. Close friends do.

 

 

I cant imagine telling a friend of any sex who they should marry or not. People of different religious/spiritual values marry all the time and do just fine. The only thing appropriate to point out if a friend brings this concern up is to discuss the difference in values with the intended spouse and be sure they both can live with the differences

 

Again, I did not tell him who he should or should not marry. It had nothing to do with different religions. I merely pointed out that, given the way he described her to me, he lacked the requisite respect for her that was needed to sustain a LTR.

 

Seems the wife is the only one in this situation that has healthy boundaries. She understands that tolerating her husbands friendship with someone who both dislikes her and displays disdain/disrespect for her and her marriage is not in her best interest.

 

I've no idea why you think I dislike her. I've spent perhaps five minutes in her company - she offered me tea - and I don't have enough of an impression to say one way or the other. Nor do I display disdain or disrespect for her marriage - I simply said - before the event - that his own evident lack of respect for her did not augur well for the success of a LTR - which IMO requires mutual respect, honesty and caring enough about your partner not to dismiss them or their issues, a view I still stand by.

[cocorico]

 

I might voice my concerns to a friend who asked but ultimately though, if they still choose to marry this person, then I will respect their choice and will not continue to express negative opinions about the spouse. Coco, curious: did you attend their wedding? Since you haven't met I suppose not.

 

I did not "continue to express negative opinions" about her. I expressed my concerns *about their prospects for sustaining a LTR* given the way he described her to me, at the point he raised the issue. When he told me they were getting M, my comment was to the effect that he must have resolved his concerns if he was considering M. His response was basically that she expected this as a "next step" and he did not want to mess her around. I was invited to their wedding but I was visiting my H in his country at the time, so sent a card and a gift. The birthday get-together was the opportunity to meet her, after I returned.

 

But, in any event, if my friend is a close friend, and they have a partner, I go out of my way to be respectful, cordial, friendly with the partner, esp if the friend is a guy. I have had guy friends who I might text or call and ask something at 10pm, no big deal when single. If I know they have a gf or worse a wife however, I would no longer do that. Why? I have boundaries. I don't want to even put myself or them in an awkward or compromising position so I act accordingly. If I invite them to something, I always invite the gf/wife along too. If I see them in person I always greet both of them and things of that nature where I acknowledge that they are a couple and I cannot simply ignore her and be friends with him.

 

I don't phone him late at night, nor have I since they're M. In fact, I don't think I've ever phoned him late at night. He used to phone me - once we'd both gotten our kids to bed, which sometimes was quite late - but since the M, stopped doing that, as I said. We'd still meet for coffee, during the day, as we always had - our offices were on the same campus. It would have been silly to suggest she join us - she works as a secretary at a school miles away, and doesn't have the kind of autonomy in that job to go off somewhere for coffee when she feels like it. She gets her 15min for little break and 30 minutes for big break and then goes home at the end of her working day. Anyway I moved to my H's country and so our communication became online only. She doesn't participate in online activities.

 

If my guy friend had a wife and said she was uncomfortable with our friendship, even if I didn't agree, I'd err on the side of toning down whatever it was she felt uncomfortable with or just bow out. If he on his own decides she is irrational, he can choose to break it off with this woman. If he wants to stay married to her then he has to respect her wishes or come to some compromise. But personally, as his friend, I wouldn't expect him to choose me over his wife and here coco, you have to admit you've done NOTHING to make this woman think highly of you...she doesn't even know you, yet you are her husband's close friend. I would find him really disrespectful if he was belittling his wife's feelings and placing mine above hers. We are FRIENDS...I'm not your OW or lover...your wife trumps me...period. And it should be a honking red flag, as the "friend", if your friend is perfectly fine with you never meeting his wife, belittling the wife's feelings to you and the rest...I mean....that to me would alert me that maybe this friend was looking for more with me hence his comfort with this situation of me and him against the wife and it only matters if he and I think we're in an EA not his wife. RED FLAG! In NO MARRIAGE should it EVER be the case that it's you and your opposite sex friend against the wife, or where this friend dislikes your wife and has never even met her, but you two can laugh it up and chat and have a friendship given this and then he laughs off her rightful suspicion in this case that it's more and tells you she's insecure. He's an ass...period...and I'm not really quite sure how any of this is even debatable that he's justified in his behavior.

 

I have only just (since his daughter told me) found out that she "doesn't approve" of our friendship. He has never mentioned this to me. Nor has she. That was why when I was told by his DD, I messaged him to ask if that was the case. I have not been "laughing it up" or ganging up on her with him or whatever picture you're painting. He has never "belittled her feelings" until now - I had no idea she had these feelings. He doesn't discuss her, beyond in passing. Just like I don't discuss my H with him. We talk about other things, mostly politics these days, and there is absolutely nothing in any of our conversations that should make her the slightest bit uncomfortable (other than discovering how liberal his views are).

[GypsumSatellite]

It could be possible that the daughter picked up on the signs because her stepmother confided in her or she overheard discussions between the two of them. What an insane power dynamic between your friend and his W, though. He's the big "impressive" doctor and she's just a "lowly" secretary - seems she's pretty dependent on him for financial security, maybe even emotional security. This was his 2nd pic of woman... I hope to hell he never told her she was his second choice.

 

Any chance he enjoyed that about her, the lower standing, when he married her? The power dynamic? Her meekness? I just worry that she's been fed insecurity because of his behavior around her, towards her, and perhaps even seen some evidence to the proof of something on his end like him having EA feelings for you.

 

Which would be what she could be reacting to and I can't quite blame her... if he were to engage in an EMR on her, she could lose her entire sense of being, of worth... because she probably doesn't feel like enough for him as is. Educational and societal differences in couples can really exacerbate insecurity. I find myself really feeling for her and wondering why your friend would have ever owned up to feeling anything but friendly-non-EA feelings for you... if he ever spoke of it, that is. If it was just inferred by his daughter... you know, she may have heard or seen something that triggered that years ago when she was struggling int he aftermath of the D and her issues in her teen years. Parents sometimes unfortunately crutch onto their children during times of difficulty - it's no wonder what she may have gone through, too.

 

I guess, it's more a question of if he's feeling EA feelings towards you, not your own demeanor. If he's exhibiting signs around his W or daughter (and we know how subtle those can be and how on-the-nose they are) then, this is on him. If he doesn't want an insecure wife and a worrying daughter, he should keep the displays in check as he is made aware of them.

 

It is interesting the wide-ranging opinions on what an EA can be... but I agree that it can be one-sided infatuation even when no such emotion exists on the other end of the friendship. I've seen that one in action myself.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Coco...you have stated if your husband was uncomfortable with the friend relationship...it wouldn't even be a discussion...your husbands comfort was without a doubt more important than any friendship this male friend could offer. Which I believe most healthy relationships would do.

 

What I don't understand is why would being the vessel to his partners discomfort be any different for you? If you view his treatment/outlook as disrespectful to his spouse...wouldn't that also make your continuing to befriend him/ask for intimate husband/wife conversations disrespectful to her as well?

[velvette]

Coco

 

 

Rather than address your changing narrative, I will just say, its up to the people who are married to define what constitutes an inappropriate friendship or EA.

 

 

He has verified that his wife has defined that his friendship is inappropriate.

 

 

You missed/neglected or ignored the opportunity to establish the friendship in the manner that most people with healthy boundaries would have as MissBee described.

 

 

You have no idea if his wife is insecure. All you know is what he has told you.

 

 

Maybe she doesn't like you based on whatever he's told her or having read your correspondence.

 

 

In any case, its up to her to decide if she considers it an EA or inappropriate friendship. Either respect that or don't. Alternatively, do what you should have done in the first place and make friends with her and discuss it.

[minimariah]

When he told me they were getting M, my comment was to the effect that he must have resolved his concerns if he was considering M. His response was basically that she expected this as a "next step" and he did not want to mess her around.

 

how can you respect a man like this -- let alone be FRIENDS with him?

 

He doesn't discuss her, beyond in passing.

 

then how come you seem to know so much about this woman's personal life -- when you've never even met her more than once & when she's never discussed?

 

We talk about other things, mostly politics these days, and there is absolutely nothing in any of our conversations that should make her the slightest bit uncomfortable (other than discovering how liberal his views are).

 

HIS feelings for YOU should make her uncomfortable -- it's about HIS feelings and his state of mind... not you & your relationship with him. both her & his daughter noticed things that you've somehow managed to completely miss through years of "close" friendship.

Edited May 25, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[minimariah]

Alternatively, do what you should have done in the first place and make friends with her and discuss it.

 

i think this is a bad idea - that "friendship" can only be toxic for the W and will rock their marriage even more. the OP should move around & get another close friend, TBH. preferably an emotionally mature man with a backbone who respects ALL WOMEN... not just those he wants to f&ck.

[Sassy Girl]

I had to learn from marriage and MC to be more like a man. It took both. About the only area relevant to this topic where some issues remain is my departure from fellow males regarding what constitutes affair/infidelity actions. My friends tend to align more with Bill Clinton on this topic.

 

how can you respect a man like this -- let alone be FRIENDS with him?

 

 

 

then how come you seem to know so much about this woman's personal life -- when you've never even met her more than once & when she's never discussed?

 

 

 

HIS feelings for YOU should make her uncomfortable -- it's about HIS feelings and his state of mind... not you & your relationship with him. both her & his daughter noticed things that you've somehow managed to completely miss through years of "close" friendship. i don't think you dislike this woman - that's your superiority complex very obviously coming out in your posts (that you like to think no one else notices) -- hence describing her as your "less THAN" substitute.

Spot on. As was Miss bee.

 

All I glean from all this is a pattern of loose boundaries and inappropriate relationships with men.

 

Coco - do you have many female friends?

[truncated]

If you know communicating with him upsets his wife, and you also know that he views your friendship as something more, then are you going to continue to communicate with him?

 

It does sound like you have a really skewed vision of her, provided by him. I also find it really difficult to beleive she doesn't go online.

 

She may know much more than you think.

[cocorico]

It could be possible that the daughter picked up on the signs because her stepmother confided in her or she overheard discussions between the two of them. What an insane power dynamic between your friend and his W, though. He's the big "impressive" doctor and she's just a "lowly" secretary - seems she's pretty dependent on him for financial security, maybe even emotional security. This was his 2nd pic of woman... I hope to hell he never told her she was his second choice.

 

Any chance he enjoyed that about her, the lower standing, when he married her? The power dynamic? Her meekness? I just worry that she's been fed insecurity because of his behavior around her, towards her, and perhaps even seen some evidence to the proof of something on his end like him having EA feelings for you.

 

He's a "rescuer". We've discussed this pattern of him choosing women to "save", in the past. He does have a bit of a paternalistic attitude to the women he dates, which I've pointed out to him previously. FOO issues....

 

Which would be what she could be reacting to and I can't quite blame her... if he were to engage in an EMR on her, she could lose her entire sense of being, of worth... because she probably doesn't feel like enough for him as is. Educational and societal differences in couples can really exacerbate insecurity. I find myself really feeling for her and wondering why your friend would have ever owned up to feeling anything but friendly-non-EA feelings for you... if he ever spoke of it, that is. If it was just inferred by his daughter... you know, she may have heard or seen something that triggered that years ago when she was struggling int he aftermath of the D and her issues in her teen years. Parents sometimes unfortunately crutch onto their children during times of difficulty - it's no wonder what she may have gone through, too.

 

He's not the kind of guy to talk about his feelings, typically. He's more inclined to play therapist to others and to step in and take charge. Our friendship was a bit exceptional in that way because of the dynamic we established early on. I don't tolerate being patronised, and I don't back off in conversation when things get into awkward, "don't go there" territory, with friends. Perhaps that is a "boundary" issue, but I do demand intellectual honesty from friends. If we're just going to be passing acquaintances who meet for coffee to talk about the weather, fair enough, but real friends IMO should be talking about real issues. So I doubt he's explicitly said anything, either to his W or his daughter. His daughter is a very sensitive woman. Most likely she's compiled her own portfolio of "evidence" over the decades to support her assumptions... But I could be wrong. Perhaps something came out, somewhere.

 

I guess, it's more a question of if he's feeling EA feelings towards you, not your own demeanor. If he's exhibiting signs around his W or daughter (and we know how subtle those can be and how on-the-nose they are) then, this is on him. If he doesn't want an insecure wife and a worrying daughter, he should keep the displays in check as he is made aware of them.

 

He's been in IC on and off over the years. It strikes me that it's an issue he should be dealing with in that space.

 

It is interesting the wide-ranging opinions on what an EA can be... but I agree that it can be one-sided infatuation even when no such emotion exists on the other end of the friendship. I've seen that one in action myself.

 

So... I'm guessing your view is, I should back off and let the cobwebs and dust bunnies claim the friendship?

[cocorico]

Coco...you have stated if your husband was uncomfortable with the friend relationship...it wouldn't even be a discussion...your husbands comfort was without a doubt more important than any friendship this male friend could offer. Which I believe most healthy relationships would do.

 

What I don't understand is why would being the vessel to his partners discomfort be any different for you? If you view his treatment/outlook as disrespectful to his spouse...wouldn't that also make your continuing to befriend him/ask for intimate husband/wife conversations disrespectful to her as well?

 

I haven't continued to "ask for intimate husband/wife conversations". I have continued a LD friendship, online, on "safe" topics like politics and current affairs, and professional links. There is nothing in our current friendship I would have thought of as threatening. Since hearing from his daughter, I've messaged him only to clarify (as mentioned earlier). I guess I'm trying to understand the situation,miso as to know how best to act. He's a friend, of decades-long standing. I don't easily throw away those. If I am to do that, I need to be comfortable that I'm doing it for the correct reasons.

[cocorico]

Coco

 

 

Rather than address your changing narrative, I will just say, its up to the people who are married to define what constitutes an inappropriate friendship or EA.

 

 

He has verified that his wife has defined that his friendship is inappropriate.

 

 

You missed/neglected or ignored the opportunity to establish the friendship in the manner that most people with healthy boundaries would have as MissBee described.

 

 

You have no idea if his wife is insecure. All you know is what he has told you.

 

 

Maybe she doesn't like you based on whatever he's told her or having read your correspondence.

 

 

In any case, its up to her to decide if she considers it an EA or inappropriate friendship. Either respect that or don't. Alternatively, do what you should have done in the first place and make friends with her and discuss it.

 

I'm not sure what opportunity I had to establish a friendship. The one time I got to meet her, she went and hid and I didn't get to speak to her. I got the impression she preferred not to speak to me, so I didn't push it. If someone prefers not to interact with me, I'm not the type to force the issue. She does not have to be my friend just because her husband is. My H and I share many friends, but there are some of my friends he finds a bit wacky and chooses not to spend too much time around, and there are a couple of his friends I'm not rushing out of my way to be around, though I'm happy for him to keep the friendships if they matter to him. We don't have to live in each other's pockets all the time. So, as longstanding friends acquire love interests or partners, I don't expect them to be my friend unless we like each other and get along. I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

[cocorico]

Spot on. As was Miss bee.

 

All I glean from all this is a pattern of loose boundaries and inappropriate relationships with men.

 

Coco - do you have many female friends?

 

"Many"? How many is "many"? I have some. Close friends, by definition, are not many, but few.

[cocorico]

If you know communicating with him upsets his wife, and you also know that he views your friendship as something more, then are you going to continue to communicate with him?

 

It does sound like you have a really skewed vision of her, provided by him. I also find it really difficult to beleive she doesn't go online.

 

She may know much more than you think.

 

She doesn't use social media, which is how my friend and I communicate. Does he leave his laptop logged in at home, for her to read? It's possible. She wouldn't find anything threatening, as there's nothing to find.

 

I know very little about her - I know her name and what work she does, and I know she's religious and has a child with emotional problems - because he told me this when he was speaking to me years back about his concerns about whether or not to get involved with her. I know he had reservations - and I know that the way he expressed his reservations sounded to me lacking in respect. Beyond that, I met her once, interacted with her very briefly, and then she went and sat in the bedroom until I left. That is the sum total of what I know about her, consisting of his initial concerns about her, and her behaviour upon meeting me. Skewed or not, it's certainly partial.

[MissBee]

Coco,

 

You posed a general question about what constitutes an EA , after sharing your own relationship with this guy. More or less it's been agreed that what you and this man have isn't an EA, given that it takes two to tango, but nevertheless his behaviors aren't kosher.

 

You've brought this topic up before and have been dismissive of EAs as in the realm of unicorns, pop psychology, whatever else. I'm curious, you do not think emotional affairs exist or are a thing? People are either sleeping with someone or it's not an affair? I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, in fact with any relationship, when is it no longer platonic only if sex is on the table?

 

From what you've said I can't tell if you're saying that in this specific case it was a friendship mistaken for more by an insecure woman (although, frankly not sure why you added the details about him carrying a torch and all those other non-platonic things if you wanted us to believe all was above board, you only begin to foreground other things later but that first post started off all about how much this man likes you as more and not his wife, not sure what we we were supposed to think based on that) or are you saying EAs do not exist as a rule and are most always about some insecure woman (nonenoof these renditions seem to include the man being the insecure crazy one)?

[MissBee]

Coco,

 

You posed a general question about what constitutes an EA , after sharing your own relationship with this guy. More or less it's been agreed that what you and this man have isn't an EA, given that it takes two to tango, but nevertheless his behaviors aren't kosher.

 

You've brought this topic up before and have been dismissive of EAs as in the realm of unicorns, pop psychology, whatever else. I'm curious, you do not think emotional affairs exist? People are either sleeping with someone or it's not an affair? I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, in fact with any relationship, when is it no longer platonic, only if sex is on the table? Is there no process in your mind, it's just black or white, zero or 100, no small boundary crossings in between? It is never gradual it's just not affair and then affair? What is your resistance to the term EA exactly? Is it just the semantics you don't like or is it the actual concept that one can engage in emotional betrayal that you find impossible?

 

From what you've said I can't tell if you're saying that in this specific case it was a friendship mistaken for more by an insecure woman (although, frankly not sure why you added the details about him carrying a torch and all those other non-platonic things if you wanted us to believe all was above board, you only begin to foreground other things later but that first post started off all about how much this man likes you as more and not his wife, not sure what we we were supposed to think based on that) or are you saying EAs do not exist as a rule and are most always about some insecure woman (none of these renditions seem to include the man being the insecure crazy one, always some insecure half-wit wife)?

Edited May 25, 2015 by MissBee

[anika99]

He's a "rescuer". We've discussed this pattern of him choosing women to "save", in the past. He does have a bit of a paternalistic attitude to the women he dates, which I've pointed out to him previously. FOO issues....

 

 

 

He's not the kind of guy to talk about his feelings, typically. He's more inclined to play therapist to others and to step in and take charge. Our friendship was a bit exceptional in that way because of the dynamic we established early on. I don't tolerate being patronised, and I don't back off in conversation when things get into awkward, "don't go there" territory, with friends. Perhaps that is a "boundary" issue, but I do demand intellectual honesty from friends. If we're just going to be passing acquaintances who meet for coffee to talk about the weather, fair enough, but real friends IMO should be talking about real issues. So I doubt he's explicitly said anything, either to his W or his daughter. His daughter is a very sensitive woman. Most likely she's compiled her own portfolio of "evidence" over the decades to support her assumptions... But I could be wrong. Perhaps something came out, somewhere.

 

 

 

He's been in IC on and off over the years. It strikes me that it's an issue he should be dealing with in that space.

 

 

 

So... I'm guessing your view is, I should back off and let the cobwebs and dust bunnies claim the friendship?

 

The bolded is definitely a boundary issue, a big one. When your friends give off an awkward don't go there vibe you won't back off? I have had the same close friends for years and we absolutely give each other whatever space is needed to deal with one's issues. If one of my friends wishes to discuss a deep issue with me, I'm there for them, and if one of my friends says they would rather not discuss a particular issue with me then I respect that and let them know I'm still there for them when they need me to be. I am their friend, not their therapist. They have no obligation to talk to me about anything that makes them uncomfortable.

 

 

Given everything you have said here regarding her husband's feelings for you and the disrespectful dismissive way he speaks of his wife, his wife is not wrong to be uncomfortable with his friendship with you. Her intuition is rightfully warning her that her husband has inappropriate boundaries and feelings regarding you.

Edited May 25, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Off-topic material redacted.

[velvette]

I'm not sure what opportunity I had to establish a friendship. The one time I got to meet her, she went and hid and I didn't get to speak to her. I got the impression she preferred not to speak to me, so I didn't push it. If someone prefers not to interact with me, I'm not the type to force the issue. She does not have to be my friend just because her husband is. My H and I share many friends, but there are some of my friends he finds a bit wacky and chooses not to spend too much time around, and there are a couple of his friends I'm not rushing out of my way to be around, though I'm happy for him to keep the friendships if they matter to him. We don't have to live in each other's pockets all the time. So, as longstanding friends acquire love interests or partners, I don't expect them to be my friend unless we like each other and get along. I know I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Maybe she was just giving her husband space with HIS family and friend. I know I don't always hang around when my husband has a friend over who is not also my close friend. I greet, offer refreshments and go on about my business. When the friend leaves, they usually seek me out to say good bye. That's how most people I know operate.

 

 

In any case, so she doesn't participate in social media. Does she not have an email, a phone, a postal address? What prevented you from either sticking your head near the bedroom and saying goodbye or sending her a card to say thanks for having me, hope you two will be very happy, looking forward to getting to know you.

Edited May 25, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[cocorico]

Coco,

 

You posed a general question about what constitutes an EA , after sharing your own relationship with this guy. More or less it's been agreed that what you and this man have isn't an EA, given that it takes two to tango, but nevertheless his behaviors aren't kosher.

 

You've brought this topic up before and have been dismissive of EAs as in the realm of unicorns, pop psychology, whatever else. I'm curious, you do not think emotional affairs exist? People are either sleeping with someone or it's not an affair? I'm trying to understand where you draw the line, in fact with any relationship, when is it no longer platonic, only if sex is on the table? Is there no process in your mind, it's just black or white, zero or 100, no small boundary crossings in between? It is never gradual it's just not affair and then affair? What is your resistance to the term EA exactly? Is it just the semantics you don't like or is it the actual concept that one can engage in emotional betrayal that you find impossible?

 

From what you've said I can't tell if you're saying that in this specific case it was a friendship mistaken for more by an insecure woman (although, frankly not sure why you added the details about him carrying a torch and all those other non-platonic things if you wanted us to believe all was above board, you only begin to foreground other things later but that first post started off all about how much this man likes you as more and not his wife, not sure what we we were supposed to think based on that) or are you saying EAs do not exist as a rule and are most always about some insecure woman (none of these renditions seem to include the man being the insecure crazy one, always some insecure half-wit wife)?

 

I mentioned the "other non-platonic things" because they were germane to the question. My past encounter with the term have involved a pretty clear-cut situation of being accused on the basis of what was clearly from both sides a friendship. So I have no hesitation saying, that was no "EA" and if EAs do exist, that wasn't one.

 

In this case, there is a difference. He has admitted that, were our respective situations different, he would allow "feelings". If an EA requires "feelings", those are present in this case - but from one side only. Hence my question - do those feelings need to be reciprocated to qualify as an EA, or is the simple presence of feelings (even from one side) sufficient to qualify?

 

It is a foreign concept to me. I genuinely cannot get my head around it. So I can't answer your questions - I've not myself encountered a thing I can conclusively say, that's the EA beast. Does that mean it doesn't, or can't, exist? IDK. I've never seen a ghost. I'm reasonably sure they don't exist, but I can't be sure because I don't understand such phenomena. I've also never seen a raccoon but I'm pretty sure they do exist, because I've seen evidence of their existence, and there is general scientific agreement about what they are, so it's pretty easy to see something and say that is or isn't a raccoon. But an EA? Even on this thread there is no agreement about whether or not this is one, and that from people who accept that EAs exist. So I honestly don't know.

 

Of course people can betray each other emotionally. Friends fall out all the time over emotional betrayals. But we don't typically refer to those as affairs, just as emotional betrayals. How would an emotional betrayal between romantic partners differ from an emotional betrayal between friends? IDK.

[cocorico]

The bolded is definitely a boundary issue, a big one. When your friends give off an awkward don't go there vibe you won't back off? I have had the same close friends for years and we absolutely give each other whatever space is needed to deal with one's issues. If one of my friends wishes to discuss a deep issue with me, I'm there for them, and if one of my friends says they would rather not discuss a particular issue with me then I respect that and let them know I'm still there for them when they need me to be. I am their friend, not their therapist. They have no obligation to talk to me about anything that makes them uncomfortable.

 

No one is under any obligation to speak to anyone about anything, even under oath. Equally, no one is under any obligation to become, or remain, my friend. And if I feel someone is being intellectually dishonest - with themselves and with me - and I push them on an issue because I insist on honesty in my relationships, then they are free to refuse to go there, and to terminate the friendship of they choose.

 

 

Given everything you have said here regarding her husband's feelings for you and the disrespectful dismissive way he speaks of his wife, his wife is not wrong to be uncomfortable with his friendship with you. Her intuition is rightfully warning her that her husband has inappropriate boundaries and feelings regarding you.

 

Perhaps. I'd say, though, that her concern should rather be with his insufficient levels of respect for her - of which an "inappropriate" friendship is merely one symptom.