To bust or not to bust

[nightmare01]

I wouldn't say that these are "sure" signs but I think I agree with the theme of your posts. The way I might phrase it is that he doesn't need to prove to her that she's cheating; she knows the truth. He just needs to prove it to himself. The tough part is that he needs to be confident enough in the evidence to follow thru with a life-changing decision, like divorce. Most spouses won't divorce iver circumstantial evidence and signs. They want to see it in black and white.

 

Circumstantial evidence can be used when confronting his WS though. Her reactions to "explain this / explain that" could provoke the WS to confess.

[BetrayedH]

Circumstantial evidence can be used when confronting his WS though. Her reactions to "explain this / explain that" could provoke the WS to confess.

 

I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree. Cheaters follow the handbook: lie, deny, minimize, gaslight, and lie some more. Cheaters have been caught in bed with the AP and still try to spin it. I never recommend confronting without definitive proof. Circumstantial stuff gives you enough reason to investigate.

 

I'm sure some waywards confess when confronted. But more often, you've just notified them that it's time to delete the messages, clear the internet browser, and buy a second phone. It's a thousand times easier to catch a cheater when they think you're clueless and stupid.

 

When it comes to confrontations, I recommend that they're done with divorce papers. That shows strength. And if the wayward shows remorse sufficient for you to make an effort, you can always halt the divorce proceedings.

[oldshirt]

I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree. Cheaters follow the handbook: lie, deny, minimize, gaslight, and lie some more. Cheaters have been caught in bed with the AP and still try to spin it. I never recommend confronting without definitive proof. Circumstantial stuff gives you enough reason to investigate.

 

I'm sure some waywards confess when confronted. But more often, you've just notified them that it's time to delete the messages, clear the internet browser, and buy a second phone. It's a thousand times easier to catch a cheater when they think you're clueless and stupid.

 

When it comes to confrontations, I recommend that they're done with divorce papers. That shows strength. And if the wayward shows remorse sufficient for you to make an effort, you can always halt the divorce proceedings.

 

 

This^^^^^^

 

 

Proof of an A is for the BS so they can face reality and formulate a plan for their next move, it's not for confrontation. The WS already knows what they are doing and need no proof. With proof, confession isn't needed.

 

 

The confrontation should either be a declaration of intent to divorce without option of reconciliation (with papers in hand)

 

 

Or an ultimatum given to WS of Plan A - termination of A, lifelong NC with AP , Transparency, counseling to address marital issues and professional facilitation of reconciliation etc etc

 

 

Or Plan B - divorce

 

 

(again with papers in hand at time of confrontation)

[zinger]

Hi everyone once again,

 

Thanks a lot for all the feedback. It is obvious that there is a difference of opinions - what is now entirely clear for

me (perhaps because I'm away from my home at the moment) is that all these opinions do not actually contradict each other

but instead represent different viewpoints on the same issue. I'll attempt to address all of it one post. And if this is

too long or to boring for you all to read, I'm OK with that, lets call this my venting pad.

 

1) You may have different perception from my posts but I'm really a trusting non-accusation type of person (only when it comes to my family). I have always trusted my wife in every aspect of our life - financial, social, work, you name it. We have always had an unspoken transparency policy - accounts, passwords, pins, phones and computers.

 

2) I realise I may have been unreasonable. Therefore I was not in a position to have any sort of confrontation - when the possibility that I'm a paranoid jealousy jerk is real. Yet my suspicions have been triggered by something that I can not at the moment poke out of shadows. I needed to talk to my wife (we have always been able to resolve anything by talking and any rare heated arguments we may be having were usually resolved via good laugh or love) before going "CIA". Therefore my

only way forward was to navigate the discussion between the Scylla of being unreasonably confrontational (which she does not

deserve until proven unfaithful) and the Charybdis of my concerns not being considered seriously. Was I successful - time will tell, but I didn’t get a closure out of the discussion and going "CIA" which may be a blow to our marriage by itself. In other words I'm not confronting until I know where I stand and what is the way forward for me.

 

3) I see three possible outcomes from this situation.

 

First, surveillance and other due diligence techniques I may apply reveal nothing and I am a a paranoid jealousy jerk and

created a proverbial storm in a teacup. I'll have to apologise for snooping and hope that our marriage is strong enough to

survive my insecurity. I'll have to do some deep self analysis to find out the root cause of this mess in me.

 

Second, she is/was hiding something that does not involve infidelity. In that case I'm struggling to imagine something

that I will not be able to forgive and obviously I'm going to help with all resources and willingness I have at my

disposal. But I will not apologise for snooping and she will have to explain why she was not comfortable with sharing

whatever the secret was with me.

 

Third, is she was/is unfaithful - in that case I'm struggling to imagine something that I will be able to forgive. And the

morality of snooping will be irrelevant. That is something I need to prevent myself from concentrating on when I'm on my

phone alone and away from home.

 

All of this is crystal clear to me know (though my mind is constantly revolving around these options) and I thank you all

for helping me with achieving this clarity.

[understand50]

Good Luck.

80

[whichwayisup]

We had a talk. It "technically" went very well. I wasn't entirely sure about how should I start it, but there was some stupid soap opera on TV at the time that involved cheating so this have me a prefect segway into want I was going to say. I reminded her about my stance on infidelity using this and made my point very clear. She didn't flinch. I do not believe she is capable of being such a good actress; she took it with humour ala "oh, classic situation, husband goes on a business trip... Do you expect to find the gardener under our bed when you return"?

 

She couldn't be that calm of she was hiding something sinister I assume. Yet something still doesn't feel right and I'm leaving with a heavy heart. Usually she would have noticed that and wouldn't give up until she knows the root cause. Not this time.

 

And Fellini, I'm reading your post and actually freaking out.

 

Many who cheat become very good and skilled liars/manipulators. Your gut is still screaming out at you that something is 'off'. I mentioned before, she may not be actually physically be having sex with him but she could be emotionally attached and smitten with him, which isn't good either way.

[oldshirt]

Some thoughts and questions in bold below

 

 

 

First, surveillance and other due diligence techniques I may apply reveal nothing and I am a a paranoid jealousy jerk and

created a proverbial storm in a teacup. I'll have to apologise for snooping and hope that our marriage is strong enough to

survive my insecurity.

 

 

As long as making accusations and controlling her behavior out of suspicion/jealousy are not a typical pattern for you ( ie, not letting her see friends, family, not letting her leave the house, logging mileage on her car, demanding access to all of her accounts, calling her a cheating whore etc etc

and as long as you admit your 'CIA' didn't reveal anything and you go back to business as usual, I don't see much harm being done if you did get caught snooping and it turns out she wasn't unfaithful.

As long as you had some reasonable probably cause for the heightened vigilance and as long as this is not some kind of ongoing and chronic pattern, I can't see her getting too upset about it or it causing serious harm to your marriage.

 

 

 

 

I'll have to do some deep self analysis to find out the root cause of this mess in me.

 

So I'll ask, are you a suspicious/jealous person in general and do you have a history of ongoing suspicion and jealousy? Have you made a series of unfounded accusations in the past??

Do you have a history of blowing things out of proportion and have a tendency to suspect every little nuance in your marriage is evidence of adultery?

 

 

[whichwayisup]

Let us all hope for the best for Zinger......

895

 

Nicely said. I hope for the best as well.

 

Little PS here, why the numbers at the end of all your posts? Am I missing something?

[oldshirt]

...so I looked back through your posts and I don't really see any specific examples of what has caused you to suspect she has been unfaithful.

 

 

Could you please list the specific instances that have caused you to question her fidelity?

 

 

Please be thorough, there is no right or wrong answer. We realize you do not have a smoking gun yet but perhaps if you list off the specific instances, we can at least get you pointed in the direction of the gunsmoke odor.

[zinger]

Some thoughts and questions in bold below

 

1) To the first bold part - no, never done any of these things or anything of that kind, not even remotely close, so I hope you are right. I do hope for that sort of closure. Actually she used to joke that if she ever decides to accuse me of being controlling (so common these days)

no one who knows me will ever believe her.

 

2) I do not have such a history and never done anything that would resemble the described behaviour. I'm not a trusting person in general and it takes a lot to gain my trust (I overhead my employees saying that a person who "gets I trust you from Zinger can start looking for a corner office) but that does not extend to our marriage. By definition of marriage (my interpretation at least) my wife is the most trusted person in my life. I have never suspected or perceived adultery in my life.

[oldshirt]

1) To the first bold part - no, never done any of these things or anything of that kind, not even remotely close, so I hope you are right. I do hope for that sort of closure. Actually she used to joke that if she ever decides to accuse me of being controlling (so common these days)

no one who knows me will ever believe her.

 

2) I do not have such a history and never done anything that would resemble the described behaviour. I'm not a trusting person in general and it takes a lot to gain my trust (I overhead my employees saying that a person who "gets I trust you from Zinger can start looking for a corner office) but that does not extend to our marriage. By definition of marriage (my interpretation at least) my wife is the most trusted person in my life. I have never suspected or perceived adultery in my life.

 

So what specifically is making you think that she is unfaithful now?

[Morro72]

As to whether you're justified in being suspicious or just have a hyperactive imagination, I think the browser crash recovery list of dating and infidelity sites at least calls for an explanation. Also it sounds like after seeing that you did a little more digging and found some things that you didn't want to go into now. I think that's sufficient to justify a little further digging. You haven't gone into any detail about behavioral changes or about any specific possible AP but it sounds like you've seen enough to raise your eyebrows. As long as you focus on getting useful information and don't get out ahead of the facts you should be OK. But if you find your actions being driven primarily by imagination or fear it's time to reassess.

[merrmeade]

I guess I'll just have to respectfully disagree. Cheaters follow the handbook: lie, deny, minimize, gaslight, and lie some more. Cheaters have been caught in bed with the AP and still try to spin it. I never recommend confronting without definitive proof. Circumstantial stuff gives you enough reason to investigate.

 

I'm sure some waywards confess when confronted. But more often, you've just notified them that it's time to delete the messages, clear the internet browser, and buy a second phone. It's a thousand times easier to catch a cheater when they think you're clueless and stupid.

 

When it comes to confrontations, I recommend that they're done with divorce papers. That shows strength. And if the wayward shows remorse sufficient for you to make an effort, you can always halt the divorce proceedings.

I didn't do much right after Dday but a couple of things did work and are worth repeating.

 

One you can and should start doing right now: checking phone records and text messages online can keep you busy and tells a story. This is the easiest of all records to compile. Whereas they were saying they talked once a week, I had the phone and text messages garneri n a one-year period, they made 906 phone calls and 366 SMS messages. If I'b been faster I would have caught the deleted text messages as well

 

The other trick is to fake how much you know. I said that she had told me the truth already, so there was no point in trying to hide any more.

[merrmeade]

i would talk to her first, to stop everything, but don't show your cards. Tell her you know some things that happened and ask her if she wants to come clean... If she denies, continue to play like you know that there is something.

 

Either way, you have to put her under surveillance when you leave. Var, logger, PI... everything.

 

If i were you I'd lose some money, postpone my business trip, tell her i'm going to the trip and make the surveillance myself, so i could stop things before they actually occur.

Yes, this. Totally worked.

[zinger]

...so I looked back through your posts and I don't really see any specific examples of what has caused you to suspect she has been unfaithful.

 

 

Could you please list the specific instances that have caused you to question her fidelity?

 

 

Please be thorough, there is no right or wrong answer. We realize you do not have a smoking gun yet but perhaps if you list off the specific instances, we can at least get you pointed in the direction of the gunsmoke odor.

 

In no specific order I'd say:

 

browser history of dating, relationship, breaking up and infidelity sites (perhaps she wanted some changes in romantic aspect of our marriage and infidelity just popped up in the search?)

 

Lack of enthusiasm (unusual) to accompany me on the trip - she loves the place (perhaps she was tired or had our own plans this trip ruined?). Also includes other activities we enjoy together.

 

Change in her office dress habits - more revealing and eye catching (perhaps the same as #1 but why only office attire?)

 

Change in communication dynamics (phone calls, texts, rushing home after work) and reduced attention . Hard to describe but sometimes I felt (only recently) like the one level of priority lower than usual. For example, usually if a family member (I don't want to be more specific here) does something or gets into trouble that would require my help, she'd normally have a words with them about an impact on me (he was tired, busy, how many times does he need to open his wallet) - but not recently, when she looks like she is only worryied about them getting help. I know it's shallow but I do have this feeling. (perhaps the same reason as #2?)

 

Reduced intimacy (no comments here - ladies problems?)

 

Overall loss of mental comfort at home - no justification just intuition.

 

Nothing critical as you may see and each point has its own explanation.

Edited May 22, 2015 by zinger

[whichwayisup]

Well, I see red flags and understand your concerns/worries. It is suspicious and alarming which is why your gut is screaming that something is off with her.

[Morro72]

That's plenty. You've got more than enough reason to take the next steps.

[zinger]

Can I please ask for a favour - as I'm not a social media type of person (actually I use linkedin only) especially when it comes to something that is so sensitive?

 

This forum and all of you who were kind enough to participate in discussion are helping me a lot. I cannot imagine having this discussion with my family or friends.

 

Please let me know if I'm not providing crucial information (just.ask direct questions) or - au contraire - boring you to death with my thoughts and indecisions. After all there are modt likely some people out there whose spouses are openly and unambiguously cheating, so your effort may be of a greater benefit.

 

Just let me know.

[BetrayedH]

I had some questions back on post #72

[zinger]

I'm very curious about what signs you've seen and what you've investigated already.

 

Have you accessed her phone? Looked for texts, texting apps (kik, snapchat, yahoo messenger, etc), internet history?

Computer?

FaceBook?

Phone bill for frequently called numbers, texts (especially if they are deleted), or excessive data usage?

Financial statements?

Searched her car for a second phone?

 

These are all freebies.

 

Phone - yes (not deliberately, but when transferring her contacts and messages to a new phone. Nothing obviously suspicious (excessive calls or texts). Didn't look for apps but there were non of the kind you listed

 

Computer - yes and discovered the search history I mentioned before

 

Facebook - no, she doesn't have it

 

Phone bill - no, didn't think about it. Data usage is probably OK no spikes

 

Financial statements - no outstanding purchases that would catch my eye. But I didn't check for potentially small withdrawals that would.be out of character

 

Search car for the second phone? No, never considered that, are you suggesting she may have a secret phone hidden on her car?

[Morro72]

The changes in work attire and coming home 20-30 minutes later from work sound like long "lunch breaks" with a maybe-more-than-just-a-friend at work. You haven't said anything about her job or work environment or what you know about any of the people she works with, and you may not be able to do so in a somewhat public place such as this but those are all good things to think about and the more specific you can be the more helpful suggestions you'll get.

 

Also, when you looked at the browser history, did you just note which sites were visited, or did you dig into what specific pages she was looking at on those sites? (It's one thing to look at the front page of a dating site; it's another to register and browse through profiles, and still another to repeatedly visit one or two of them.) Anything you could pass on would be helpful, but here you may really not want to be too specific.

 

Finally, I'm pretty sure BetrayedH was suggesting that you look in her car for a cell phone that you may not have realized she had.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Morro72

[TobyBoy]

Did she visit any of those sites or just search them?

Did she search specific websites or just in general terms?

When did she search these sites? Were you at work? Out of town?

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

Im sorry my friend but you can analyze this all you want to but searching infidelity websites is not done for no reason. And that reason is not good for you.

 

If you read this site and others yopu will find a ton of BS, men and women, who got these signs AND the GUT feeeling, ignored it or surpressed it, and then find out it has been going on for months or longer and are devastated not only by the discovery but knowing they had a chance to find out a lot sooner or stop it but this ill placed guilt for snooping prevented it.

 

This thought that your wife will divorce you for not trusting her is nonsense. Why didnt she explain to you why she is searching infidelity and cheating websites. For your information, there is a 50-50 chance she has joined one since you cannot find any phone numbers with a lot of texts. There is an old saying " Better safe than sorry" and you should listen to that and your gut.

 

Now there are people here who DO NOT regard infidelity as that big a deal and if you feel that you will forgive it anyway, then maybe that justifies "sit and wait" and hope. You might want to get a book called "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. This book is considered a pretty good source of information on infidelity, and in it she states that when a women cheats it more ofter destroys the marriage because women more often are EMOTIONALLY involved to the OM and are checked out of the marriage before the sex even begins. You do not want to be in that category.

 

By the way, if she has been researching infidelity, she probably came across the tips for cheaters out there, one of which is the "burner" phone. I think you said you had not thought about it. Search everywhere. Her car, her lingerie drawer, anywhere you would not ordinarily look. You simplest way to catch her is the VAR/

 

If you read any books, they will all tell you do not ignore red flags. There was recently a thread here of a guy whose wife was constantly talking about a co worker, texting him, and he got all the standard denials and also felt guilty about snooping and went through about five pages of responses before he finally acted. Guess what he found out??? A full blown affair and he sat there for weeks pondering about snooping. He was so distraught he left the forum.

 

DON"T LET THAT BE YOU!!! You will be sorry you did not act.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Friskyone4u

[TobyBoy]

Here's a few "signs" that are often overlooked.

1. Short calls to the betrayed at unusual times.(these are made to check on your whereabouts)

2. Talks about an individual have stopped after being a topic for a while.

3. Forgetfulness when it never was a an issue.

4. New interests.(music, tv, health, sports)

5. Detachment. So subtle that it was not notice until to late.

[zinger]

Morrow and Toyboy,

 

It seems that the whole search history requires further explanation. She was at her laptop downstairs when I came home. She turned it off when I arrived, all common and normal. Later on that night I turned it back on. Her browser must've crushed before I arrived, what she didn't know is that when you start it again it offers you to restore previous tabs. I must've clicked yes - there were several open pages from a lifestyle site (something "brain"). Articles like "10 signs a men is interested in you", "8 signs of your relationship is for a long term", one or two marriage web sites, and one either a site dedicated to infidelity or a forum like this , front pages only.

 

Her work is not significant as a source of income for us and does not require punching in or out. So she may spend thouse 20 or 30 minutes at any time (likely.after work )not necessary at lunch. Yes she has male coworkers, clients and supplier reps.

 

I'm not dismissing the advice to search car at all, it is just that level of cover up seems unreal to me. May I please ask is this just.a guess or actual experience?