View from an agnostic

[Mr Carson]

And may I respectfully ask how it is -- from looking at the Earth and space and wonders around us -- that you know that this is the creation of the Christian God, as opposed to the Muslim God, or a God yet to reveal itself to us?

 

First I'm not trying to ''convert'' anyone here, this is my belief and I choose to believe in a supreme being GOD. I can offer you no proof it's my faith. I know in my heart when I see the earth and everything on it. I don't believe this is all an accident, that life just accidentally happened. I can't prove this anymore than someone can prove an other God or one that hasn't manifested it's presence or revealed it's existence. I hope this is not coming across another way than kind, I don't want to be misunderstood and I'm certainly not preaching.

[pie2]

Good question about the lukewarm!

 

In Revelation, Christ rebukes the lukewarm church of Laodicea (in modern day Turkey)...

 

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

 

Interesting context noted by Rick Renner...

The city of Laodicea was built in a region that was full of seismic activity and had experienced many earthquakes. As often happens in a seismic area, vents came up from the depths of the earth, allowing boiling hot water to reach the surface. In the nearby city of Hierapolis, these hot springs were famous. People came from great distances to bathe in those waters, believing they had medicinal powers. An experience in those waters was viewed to be therapeutic and effective in improving one's health.

Another city named Colosse was not too far away. As Hierapolis was known for its hot springs, Colosse was known for its cold waters. Just as people journeyed to Hierapolis to bathe in the hot springs for health purposes, people would travel great distances to vacation in Colosse, where they could invigorate themselves by taking frequent dips into the famous, refreshing, cool-to-freezing waters of that city.

Laodicea may have been the biggest and richest city in the area, but it had neither hot nor cold water. Therefore, the people of Laodicea had to leave their luxurious homes and travel to Colosse if they wanted to enjoy fresh, cool water. On the other hand, those who desired to soak in the hot springs had to travel six miles to Hierapolis.

Once in an attempt to bring the hot water from Hierapolis to Laodicea, a huge construction project was commenced. The goal of those who initiated the project was to build pipes that would channel the hot water six miles from Hierapolis to the city of Laodicea. The pipes effectively delivered the water - a real feat of construction at that time. Sadly, however, the water lost its heat along the way. By the time the water reached Laodicea, it was not only lukewarm, but it had developed a sickening, nauseating taste. The taste was

so

revolting that no one wanted to drink it!

 

Interesting! I love how the bible uses examples that are

so

relevant to the people specifically being addressed, and yet they are

so

understood by humanity 2000 years later.

 

Thanks for the info. I hope the

OP

and others consider the seriousness of spiritual matters, and do think passionately about them. They aren't a joke or a hobby...they are life and death topics, in that spirituality is eternal and it's something that can affect every aspect of our lives.

 

If it's any consultation, I received a vision of an angel in the past...not something I share too often, but it was very vivid and in a split second when I was spared (I believe an angel protected me) from a potentially deadly situation.

 

I don't remember reading this previously. Very interesting, and it's no question to me why you may have been saved. You have such a big job still in this life...you're such a blessing!!

[truncated]

Interesting! I love how the bible uses examples that are so relevant to the people specifically being addressed, and yet they are so understood by humanity 2000 years later.

 

Thanks for the info. I hope the OP and others consider the seriousness of spiritual matters, and do think passionately about them. They aren't a joke or a hobby...they are life and death topics, in that spirituality is eternal and it's something that can affect every aspect of our lives.

 

 

 

I don't remember reading this previously. Very interesting, and it's no question to me why you may have been saved. You have such a big job still in this life...you're such a blessing!!

[/indent]

 

 

even in this thread I'm told I need to be more spiritual and consider it more passionately.

 

this is what I am talking about. religion is everywhere, and I can accept that. my kids participated in christmas concerts at school, did the easter coloring sheets, sing the national anthem with line "god keep our land" in it. etc.

 

I don't ask religious people to give more thought to being non-religious. I don't ask them to change their beliefs, yet I can't be afforded that same respect.

 

I believe in what I can see, measure and experience. Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

[Mr Carson]

 

even in this thread I'm told I need to be more spiritual and consider it more passionately.

 

this is what I am talking about. religion is everywhere, and I can accept that. my kids participated in christmas concerts at school, did the easter coloring sheets, sing the national anthem with line "god keep our land" in it. etc.

 

I don't ask religious people to give more thought to being non-religious. I don't ask them to change their beliefs, yet I can't be afforded that same respect.

 

I believe in what I can see, measure and experience. Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

 

truncated

 

I'm not real big on organized religions. Religion has done a lot of damage, no denying it. But people of faith have some of the same issues you're talking about. For instance, if you don't believe in evolution a teacher can fail you or people look at you like your nuts because of your view. Even science is divided on evolution but it taught like its law. Sometimes people will berate you for believing in God, but they believe in aliens. It the same thing, you can't prove a negative. It just comes down to faith and what you choose to believe, like Bro Geddi Lee says, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. You have faith that there is no God or you have faith there is?

 

 

pastifarian that is funny! Also that Spaghetti monster I know lived in my house when they were young.

[digdug75]

 

even in this thread I'm told I need to be more spiritual and consider it more passionately.

 

this is what I am talking about. religion is everywhere, and I can accept that. my kids participated in christmas concerts at school, did the easter coloring sheets, sing the national anthem with line "god keep our land" in it. etc.

 

I don't ask religious people to give more thought to being non-religious. I don't ask them to change their beliefs, yet I can't be afforded that same respect.

 

I believe in what I can see, measure and experience. Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

 

I skimmed over post to your thread and unless the post directed towards you was deleted about you needing to be more spiritual and such I had missed it.

 

 

You as an individual do not most likely ask religious people to give more thought into being non-religious. Though there are groups of Atheist/Agnostics the do not like Christmas, national anthem, pledge of allegiance, prayer, 10 commandments ect... trying to rid any display of such things. Asking in a sense think of our belief. If any discussion in these areas occur with some atheist/agnostic. Many insults occur from the point of view of some atheist/agnostic and to be fair also from some Christians.

 

 

Do you believe in spirituality? if so how can this be? or should I ask what spirituality means to you? As I read op again I see you have raised your children to form there own spiritual beliefs. How is this possible? Do you understand what is spiritual? I ask these questions because I simply don't know or understand.

 

 

In schools children are forced to except that evolution is truth, and having to except that science as ultimate truth. In my opinion.

 

 

It gets tiring sometimes to read statements like "if God exists prove it to me". No person is able to prove to another God exists from my point of view. There can only be tools given to an individual to find out for themselves if God exists.

 

 

Again sorry you had this experience from a Christian. It was not a righteous thing to say! I have been trying to figure out a way for you to avoid such people. kind of hard to do I guess and still be polite and respectful.

[writergal]

 

even in this thread I'm told I need to be more spiritual and consider it more passionately.

this is what I am talking about. religion is everywhere, and I can accept that. my kids participated in christmas concerts at school, did the easter coloring sheets, sing the national anthem with line "god keep our land" in it. etc.

 

I don't ask religious people to give more thought to being non-religious. I don't ask them to change their beliefs, yet I can't be afforded that same respect.

 

I believe in what I can see, measure and experience. Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

 

In threads here, the religious tend to brow-beat the nonbelievers with their spiritual propaganda because it's what they do. It is literally impossible for religious people not to prosthelytize, even in your thread. So, it doesn't surprise me to see how the religious posters here came into your thread to try to convince you that you're Agnostic belief system is wrong because it doesn't jibe with their religious belief system.

 

And it's not that they can't accept different belief systems. It's that they won't accept those different belief systems, especially non-belief systems like Agnostic or Atheist. Tolerance of differences is what Christians preach, but not what they do.

 

Religious people feel it's their moral duty to push their religious belief on to non-believers and to others (my earlier example of Christian missionaries who destroyed African culture by bringing in Christianity and the Catholic Church to Africa).

 

The religious people in your life who refuse to let you and your daughter believe what you want to believe, aren't good for you to be around. The best way to handle prosthelytizers is to just smile and ignore them.

[endlessabyss]

In threads here, the religious tend to brow-beat the nonbelievers with their spiritual propaganda because it's what they do. It is literally impossible for religious people not to prosthelytize, even in your thread. So, it doesn't surprise me to see how the religious posters here came into your thread to try to convince you that you're Agnostic belief system is wrong because it doesn't jibe with their religious belief system.

 

And it's not that they can't accept different belief systems. It's that they won't accept those different belief systems, especially non-belief systems like Agnostic or Atheist. Tolerance of differences is what Christians preach, but not what they do.

 

Religious people feel it's their moral duty to push their religious belief on to non-believers and to others (my earlier example of Christian missionaries who destroyed African culture by bringing in Christianity and the Catholic Church to Africa).

 

The religious people in your life who refuse to let you and your daughter believe what you want to believe, aren't good for you to be around. The best way to handle prosthelytizers is to just smile and ignore them.

 

 

 

MOST people try to push their belief systems on others. I've experienced, many times, atheists try to push their beliefs on the religious. Actually, from own experiences, I have never really seen a religious person try to push their beliefs on someone, but I have seen vice versa quite often.

 

 

It is probably because I live in a communist saturated part of the U.S.

 

 

Stop acting this is exclusively a religious phenomenon.

[digdug75]

In threads here, the religious tend to brow-beat the nonbelievers with their spiritual propaganda because it's what they do. It is literally impossible for religious people not to prosthelytize, even in your thread. So, it doesn't surprise me to see how the religious posters here came into your thread to try to convince you that you're Agnostic belief system is wrong because it doesn't jibe with their religious belief system.

 

And it's not that they can't accept different belief systems. It's that they won't accept those different belief systems, especially non-belief systems like Agnostic or Atheist. Tolerance of differences is what Christians preach, but not what they do.

 

Religious people feel it's their moral duty to push their religious belief on to non-believers and to others (my earlier example of Christian missionaries who destroyed African culture by bringing in Christianity and the Catholic Church to Africa).

 

The religious people in your life who refuse to let you and your daughter believe what you want to believe, aren't good for you to be around. The best way to handle prosthelytizers is to just smile and ignore them.

 

LOL! didn't know this thread was specific to bashing Christians. I read the op and it was not specific to say just for agnostics/atheist.

 

 

agnostic/atheist is a belief. Well according to definition of belief.

Belief:

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction:

2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:

3. confidence; faith; trust:

[digdug75]

why would an agnostic or atheist post on a thread with the topic being "Spirituality & Religious Beliefs"?

[writergal]

MOST people try to push their belief systems on others. I've experienced, many times, atheists try to push their beliefs on the religious. Actually, from own experiences, I have never really seen a religious person try to push their beliefs on someone, but I have seen vice versa quite often.

 

 

It is probably because I live in a communist saturated part of the U.S.

 

 

Stop acting this is exclusively a religious phenomenon.

 

I think the OP needs to ignore the ultra-religious crazies who try to push their belief systems on them.

 

This is a religious phenomenon because that is the most common belief system people try to push on to each other.

 

ISIS is trying to take over the world because they believe their religion is the true religion, so they go around the world murdering people in the name of their religion.

 

Christian missionaries travel to places like Africa or other islands to destroy that culture and replace it with Christianity.The Crusades happened because of religion. Wars are fought over religion. Christian Missionaries that even operate today continue to go around the world, around the country destroying other people's religions in the name of their Christian God. It's a fact. It's in the world history books.

 

So, religion IS the problem. Religion is a plague on politics, on education, on healthcare, and on racism. Religious people hate everyone which is obvious by their actions (riots, protests, murder, not passing legislature, work and education discrimination). Yet religious people preach that they don't hate anyone. Religion is the root cause of 90% of the problems in the world and always has been.

 

Agnostics like the OP are browbeaten by religious people, because they question everything yet still believe in a higher power. I think the OP and her daughter deserve to have their Agnostic belief system respected. Christians complain "you need to respect my belief system" but they don't show others that same respect. They never show others like the OP and her daughter that same respect.

[Hawaii51]

suffice it to say, most religions are founded rooted in love and understanding- no matter how much hate they spread or bigoted misunderstandings they exude. If your god hates the same people you do, you're probably doing it wrong.

Religions are esoteric stories, codified (quite literally) by groups men (nary a woman) in a corporation. The largest landowners in the world fall into this category and exercise control over billions of people and trillions of dollars.

 

People who limit their intellect typically fall into religion because it provides a piece of peace. But it's still not entirely right, correct, and most detrimentally, open for interpretation. There is only one God, and it's everyone's God. And it's more than provable if a keener sense of the universe and energy is to be understood.

 

My little definition: The omni-present, ever fluxing, and ultimately positive energy in the universe.

 

Science proves it, Ancient texts profess it, Master's understand it, and I feel it AND access it through meditation and living in love- the root of religion.

 

Something that changed my perspective was when I started looking at Prayer like talking to God, and Meditation like listening to God.

 

 

I'm about to get snippy.

Religion is a 3rd dimensional tool created during a time where a more thorough understanding and system of control was necessary. They're based on older myths that have been perpetuated throughout the eons in one form or another. It takes a lot of ignorance to follow an organized religion with zeal, and I steer very clear of those sorts in every walk of life.

 

The real battle between good and evil is really the struggle between our higher-selves and our ego (emotional conditioning). It's just personified in characters of those religious books, in places and and situations where the Devil (ego) runs the show. The higher-self loves everyone, every moment, without fail.

 

Religion is too small for my universe.

 

I <3 consciousness. Even in regards to cutting edge quantum physics- Our thoughts and emotions (are energy) while perceiving this reality CHANGES this reality. We are the observer-effect, and if you're negative that is the outcome you will perceive. Quite literally, as simple as that.

 

In my not so humble opinion, religions are bigot-boxes.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Hawaii51

[TheFinalWord]

Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

 

A flying spaghetti monster is a physical entity. It can be easily refuted as an explanation so that is one less barrier in your way

 

[truncated]

A good friend of mine gave this to me once, as she said it describes my views...( she's a born again Christian, so we don't tend to discuss religion very often. I don;t know where she got it)

 

Alleged Creator

( you will be addessed as such until irrefutable proof is provided, but I digress)

Presumed in heaven, given that

Unknown be thy name

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done

If like conditions are reproduced

Give us this day increased knowledge

And allow us to question

As we forbear those who are illogical around us

Lead us not into incompetence

But deliver us from the irrational

For thine is the truth, the knowledge and wisdom

forever and ever, or at least until evidence to the contrary comes to light

The End

[autumnnight]

In threads here, the religious tend to brow-beat the nonbelievers with their spiritual propaganda because it's what they do. It is literally impossible for religious people not to prosthelytize, even in your thread. So, it doesn't surprise me to see how the religious posters here came into your thread to try to convince you that you're Agnostic belief system is wrong because it doesn't jibe with their religious belief system.

 

And it's not that they can't accept different belief systems. It's that they won't accept those different belief systems, especially non-belief systems like Agnostic or Atheist. Tolerance of differences is what Christians preach, but not what they do.

 

Religious people feel it's their moral duty to push their religious belief on to non-believers and to others (my earlier example of Christian missionaries who destroyed African culture by bringing in Christianity and the Catholic Church to Africa).

 

The religious people in your life who refuse to let you and your daughter believe what you want to believe, aren't good for you to be around. The best way to handle prosthelytizers is to just smile and ignore them.

 

 

Funny,m I read a lot more zingers about how those of us who believe in God are deluded, stupid, farsical, blah blah blah than I see what you are talking about.

[Timshel]

So what with all of this. If a person is religious then they are. I have met many people who proclaim they are agnostic and proceed to tell of an 'experience' they have had which confuses them.

 

For the majority of my life I have been Christian and in church. I have no regrets for that, I have cried and felt relieved with the message of our pastor and the baptisms of my children.

 

Now I find organized religion just that. Organized and contrived. I can't. If a person is seeking goodness and as hokey as it sounds, believes in love and truth, that's enough in my opinion.

 

It is not a compromise for me; instead it is an acknowledgement of our ignorance and distraction. Humility for me is letting go of 'religion' and putting faith into what is, was and always will be. The Alpha and Omega, the First and Last. The Beginning and the End.

 

I honestly don't believe that a person will be lost in damnation because they are not of a 'redeeming' religion and say they are uncertain of the Truth. I just don't know how any person has the presumption to say that they do.

[writergal]

As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

For example, one person told me my daughter's depression was due to her being possessed by a demon, and that if i had really wanted to help her, I should have taken her to church.

 

I try to be nice to people whether or not I agree with their religion. We get people coming to our door ( usually mormons of jehova's witnesses) trying to give me literature. i try and be polite, and look at in terms of they genuinely believe they are helping people and doing good in the world. I stuck a Dawin fish on the front door so they would know my beliefs, and they don't come so often.

 

I've been polite to proselytizers all the way from born again Christians to friends of Fallon Gong, but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

Funny,m I read a lot more zingers about how those of us who believe in God are deluded, stupid, farsical, blah blah blah than I see what you are talking about.

 

Reread the OP's first post in her thread. She states that religious people don't respect her Agnostic beliefs and consider her evil because she doesn't agree with them. That is a perfect example of how judgmental religious people are. Anytime a religious person and a non-religious person converse about religion neither side agrees with the other.

 

And just look at history of the world and religion's role in how countries established power. How religion is used in politics to get votes, and now religion is illegal in public schools because of so many diverse religions of the kids who attend public schools, or how religion is not allowed to be used as a way to discriminate job applicants even though many employers do religious discriminate.

 

I could go on and on with tons of examples of how religious people browbeat non-religious people. But the OP's first post is a great example. She was called "evil" by a very religious person because the OP didn't believe what her religious friend believes.

[autumnnight]

Reread the OP's first post in her thread. She states that religious people don't respect her Agnostic beliefs and consider her evil because she doesn't agree with them. That is a perfect example of how judgmental religious people are. Anytime a religious person and a non-religious person converse about religion neither side agrees with the other.

 

And just look at history of the world and religion's role in how countries established power. How religion is used in politics to get votes, and now religion is illegal in public schools because of so many diverse religions of the kids who attend public schools, or how religion is not allowed to be used as a way to discriminate job applicants even though many employers do religious discriminate.

 

I could go on and on with tons of examples of how religious people browbeat non-religious people. But the OP's first post is a great example. She was called "evil" by a very religious person because the OP didn't believe what her religious friend believes.

 

 

The OP encountered some really insensitive nut jobs. And sadly, religion does have a checkered past.

 

I was responding to YOUR post that the religious people on LS brow beat everyone.

[endlessabyss]

I think the OP needs to ignore the ultra-religious crazies who try to push their belief systems on them.

 

This is a religious phenomenon because that is the most common belief system people try to push on to each other.

 

ISIS is trying to take over the world because they believe their religion is the true religion, so they go around the world murdering people in the name of their religion.

 

Christian missionaries travel to places like Africa or other islands to destroy that culture and replace it with Christianity.The Crusades happened because of religion. Wars are fought over religion. Christian Missionaries that even operate today continue to go around the world, around the country destroying other people's religions in the name of their Christian God. It's a fact. It's in the world history books.

 

So, religion IS the problem. Religion is a plague on politics, on education, on healthcare, and on racism. Religious people hate everyone which is obvious by their actions (riots, protests, murder, not passing legislature, work and education discrimination). Yet religious people preach that they don't hate anyone. Religion is the root cause of 90% of the problems in the world and always has been.

 

Agnostics like the OP are browbeaten by religious people, because they question everything yet still believe in a higher power. I think the OP and her daughter deserve to have their Agnostic belief system respected. Christians complain "you need to respect my belief system" but they don't show others that same respect. They never show others like the OP and her daughter that same respect.

 

 

It's really not the ideologies that are harmful; humans are harmful, and evil at that.

 

 

Your bias is crazy. Must we forget all the atheist tyrants that committed mass genocide in the past? Moa, Stalin, Pol-Pot..

 

 

There are atheist organizations plotted all around the U.S. who's main job is to infiltrate the culture, and remove any type of religious function in the public. You can't put a nativity scene here for Christmas, you can't put a simple cross on the side of the road in remembrance of a loved one that died, you want to remove any mention of the word God in public schools (traditions that have went on forever).

 

 

You are pretty much just replacing one ideology for another.

 

 

Your posts are way to extreme and way to biased to take seriously. Your view is so skewed it would be a waste of time to try to reason with you when it comes to this topic of discourse.

[digdug75]

A good friend of mine gave this to me once, as she said it describes my views...( she's a born again Christian, so we don't tend to discuss religion very often. I don;t know where she got it)

 

Alleged Creator

( you will be addessed as such until irrefutable proof is provided, but I digress)

Presumed in heaven, given that

Unknown be thy name

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done

If like conditions are reproduced

Give us this day increased knowledge

And allow us to question

As we forbear those who are illogical around us

Lead us not into incompetence

But deliver us from the irrational

For thine is the truth, the knowledge and wisdom

forever and ever, or at least until evidence to the contrary comes to light

The End

 

The origin of those words given you, came from Matthew 6:9-13. Its a good chapter. Looks as though what you have been given is a version of what is known as the lords prayer.

 

 

Do you think this is an accurate description of your views?

[truncated]

The origin of those words given you, came from Matthew 6:9-13. Its a good chapter. Looks as though what you have been given is a version of what is known as the lords prayer.

 

 

Do you think this is an accurate description of your views?

 

 

Yes....

 

I am not good at blind faith, i look for evidence and signs. If I am to take the the things I have seen and heard about in my life as signs of a benevolent creators existence, then they are sorely lacking.

 

I saw a 13, 14 and 15 year old girl, who had never hurt anyone be tortured by mental health issues. I saw her cry everyday in mental anguish, her dad and I tied to get her help. She saw doctors, was in the hospital, and the end result was a kid who should have been experiencing one of the most exciting times in her life reach a point where life was so dreadful that she saw ending it as her only way out.

 

She never hurt anyone, was kind and caring, had volunteered ( before she got sick) to help animals at the spca. She'd been wonderfully creative and a great big sister to her siblings.

 

How could a kind and benevolent creator treat her this way? How could an entity , who is so often referred to as a father figure, treat one of his children that way? She didn't choose her mental illness, she chose to try and help herself, and that was the end result?

 

That's not kindness or benevolence, it's cruelty. What did a 13 , 14 and 15 year old ever do to deserve that?

 

What did a cancer patient ever do to deserve to end their days in severe physical agony, or someone with ALS , or someone with schizophrenia? What did a starving child in africa do to deserve that fate?

 

Why are the rich and wealthy who got there through dishonesty and disregard for their fellow human beings and the planet they live on rewarded?

 

Are millions of people who are not christians ( or members of which ever organized religion is condemning their lack of belief in their faith) going to hell to suffer for all eternity because they didn't believe in something they had never heard of?

 

 

These are the types of things that make it very hard for me to believe in organized religion.

[digdug75]

Yes....

 

I am not good at blind faith, i look for evidence and signs. If I am to take the the things I have seen and heard about in my life as signs of a benevolent creators existence, then they are sorely lacking.

 

 

 

I saw a 13, 14 and 15 year old girl, who had never hurt anyone be tortured by mental health issues. I saw her cry everyday in mental anguish, her dad and I tied to get her help. She saw doctors, was in the hospital, and the end result was a kid who should have been experiencing one of the most exciting times in her life reach a point where life was so dreadful that she saw ending it as her only way out.

 

She never hurt anyone, was kind and caring, had volunteered ( before she got sick) to help animals at the spca. She'd been wonderfully creative and a great big sister to her siblings.

 

How could a kind and benevolent creator treat her this way? How could an entity , who is so often referred to as a father figure, treat one of his children that way? She didn't choose her mental illness, she chose to try and help herself, and that was the end result?

 

That's not kindness or benevolence, it's cruelty. What did a 13 , 14 and 15 year old ever do to deserve that?

 

What did a cancer patient ever do to deserve to end their days in severe physical agony, or someone with ALS , or someone with schizophrenia? What did a starving child in africa do to deserve that fate?

 

Why are the rich and wealthy who got there through dishonesty and disregard for their fellow human beings and the planet they live on rewarded?

 

Are millions of people who are not christians ( or members of which ever organized religion is condemning their lack of belief in their faith) going to hell to suffer for all eternity because they didn't believe in something they had never heard of?

 

NO! There are 4 scriptures in the New Testament that I know of that support this answer.

 

These are the types of things that make it very hard for me to believe in organized religion.

 

 

I would really like to answer all these questions, and it is possible to answer them. Though the answers would be from a religious point of view. I fear any answer given by me would not make a difference in your eyes. I did answer one though.

 

 

I do not act on blind faith either, that is if your meaning of blind faith is the same as mine.

 

 

In my religion many people suffer from many forms of mental illness, diseases, loss of a child at an early age, ect... I my self suffered suicidal thoughts and severe depression for many years. Attempted suicide twice failed twice. This kind of depression is agonizing in deed. The only way I know how to explain such a feeling in one word is torture. It's relentless I have had it last for more than 8 hours a day lasting for weeks. Returning after 2 or 5 days. Cycle continuing for 6 to 8 months receiving a little break for about 3 to 4 months. Just thinking about ways to kill myself. Trying to sleep as much as possible to avoid the mental pain involved. Finding no joy in anything. I have my own beliefs of depression based on my experience. I have found some medications increases the severity of my depression.

 

 

I wonder you being an agnostic. Which do you value more Freedom or Control?

Edited May 25, 2015 by digdug75

[xxoo]

truncated, I am so sorry for your loss. I can not imagine. My heart goes out to you.

 

 

even in this thread I'm told I need to be more spiritual and consider it more passionately.

 

this is what I am talking about. religion is everywhere, and I can accept that. my kids participated in christmas concerts at school, did the easter coloring sheets, sing the national anthem with line "god keep our land" in it. etc.

 

I don't ask religious people to give more thought to being non-religious. I don't ask them to change their beliefs, yet I can't be afforded that same respect.

 

I believe in what I can see, measure and experience. Sure there are some things I can't explain, but to me, organized religion doesn't offer a viable explanation that is any better than saying the flying spaghetti monster is responsible. ( no, I'm not a pastifarian)

 

I will answer based on my experiences growing up in my mother's church. I am no longer religious or Christian, but these are the lessons I was taught.

 

Christians "witness". We were taught that it was our role to help others be "saved". It was our good deed, our way of helping others. The idea is that what the world needs is to be saved, to find Jesus, to accept him in their hearts, and that Jesus is the giver of peace. No Jesus, no peace; know Jesus, know peace. And so on.

 

So yes, in that paradigm, there is very little hope for improvement, success, health, prosperity, etc, without Jesus. Therefore, it is difficult (impossible?) for these believers to give support without witnessing to the power of Christ.

 

In their mind, it is more than faith and belief and religion. In their mind, it is reality. And if you are not saved, your soul is at risk. Therefore, they are doing a good deed by witnessing to you, whether you appreciate it or not.

[xxoo]

 

My little definition: The omni-present, ever fluxing, and ultimately positive energy in the universe.

 

Science proves it, Ancient texts profess it, Master's understand it, and I feel it AND access it through meditation and living in love- the root of religion.

 

 

I had this epiphany a few years back, many years after leaving organized religion:

 

God is Love.

 

therefore, Love is God.

 

Love.

[caringsister]

It's not an issue of being challenged. I can take that.

 

It's the lack of respect by some religious people and their need to inject their beliefs into my life.

 

I try and be polite, and see no value in insulting them. I have no problem with their beliefs if they bring them comfort and are used as a reason to do good in the world.

 

I have my own views on religion that differ greatly form theirs, but don't ridicule them, and I don't expect them to think and feel the way I do about something so personal.

 

With the individual who told me my daughter's depression was caused by her being possessed by a demon, it wans;t while she was ill, it was after she was gone. They told me it was my fault and if i had have taken her to church, it wouldn't have happened.

 

That's the kind of thing I find disgusting.

 

My heart goes out to you. That person was beyond insensitive. It was not your fault. It is people such as the one who said that to you that cause deep spiritual wounds.

 

I am a Christian and some of my deepest wounds have come from fellow believers.

I try to remember we are all human no matter our beliefs. I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I like am open to hear why people believe what they believe and in turn I share what experiences brought me to my faith in God.

 

I can accept people for who they are and just because you don't believe the same way as I do doesn't make you evil or constitute calling you evil.

 

I'm sorry for your loss.

Edited May 25, 2015 by caringsister

[autumnnight]

I echo what caring sister said. It has been said that Christians are the only group that shoot their own wounded, and sadly that is in many cases true. Those seem people also tend to have no qualms about being even LESS sensitive to people who aren't Christians.

 

Sometimes I wonder if they understand who Jesus was at all.