View from an agnostic

[pureinheart]

not really wow......it doesnt surprise me that even christians can sometimes be ignorant of others suffering.....i am guilty of this myself.....i failed to read that the opening poster had lost her child......caught up in my own memories of a judgement instead of helping op..which was always my intention.....and honestly the mother who didnt believe i was raped also failed....we all fail sometimes...its whether we learn from it...

 

to the op ...i am sorry for your loss and i hope you find in your future more compassionate spirits who understand your pain and dont blame you and instead comfort you as any human should be comforted.....hugs...sorry...................deb

 

Oh I know Deb, thinking it's a people thing (the ignorance) and it just happens to be a Christian- we are held to higher standards (this isn't meant as an arrogant statement, it's just fact).

 

The 'wow' was for the strong wording... another wow- maybe that was her normal verbiage? Yuk.

[pureinheart]

For me personally, I don't believe in the existence of spiritual characters mentioned in religious texts. There is zero proof except for what's written in religious texts by other human beings using their imagination.

 

I don't think that makes me judgemental or a hypocrite. I think it makes me have a different opinion.

 

Anyway OP, you asked why religious people judge you as evil, it's because you don't believe what they do.

 

Religious texts written by men and their imaginations? Did you go to school? Serious question because your school books were written by men and their imaginations? I suppose the pc in which you are typing is your imagination... there is a text written on pcs also.

[pie2]

to the op ...i am sorry for your loss and i hope you find in your future more compassionate spirits who understand your pain and dont blame you and instead comfort you as any human should be comforted.....hugs...sorry...................deb

 

Yes, OP...I'm so sorry for your loss . What you were told about treatment was really insensitive.

[truncated]

I would say this was spoken due to lack of knowledge because to my knowledge God is in control and doesn't need you, me or anyone ... T, I am so sorry for your loss... it wasn't your fault BTW.

 

Thanks for this.

 

It's my experience that we each need something to help us navigate through the things we don't understand and the things that seem beyond our control.If religion provides that for someone, and then main tenet of it is to help others and not hurt them, then I don't see that as a bad thing, and will respect their beliefs.

 

While I don't agree with a lot of the bible, I will say that there are a lot of good, commonsense type of rules for living in it, the main being to do unto other as you would have them do unto you.

 

That is one of the best "rules for living". Simple but very profound.

[truncated]

The hypocrisy here is so pathetic. Christians are derisive and judgemental...and yet look at EVERY post from a nonreligious person in this thread.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

hey...I'm not religious, and I don't think i was judging anyone.

[truncated]

not really wow......it doesnt surprise me that even christians can sometimes be ignorant of others suffering.....i am guilty of this myself.....i failed to read that the opening poster had lost her child......caught up in my own memories of a judgement instead of helping op..which was always my intention.....and honestly the mother who didnt believe i was raped also failed....we all fail sometimes...its whether we learn from it...

 

to the op ...i am sorry for your loss and i hope you find in your future more compassionate spirits who understand your pain and dont blame you and instead comfort you as any human should be comforted.....hugs...sorry...................deb

 

Thank you, and I hope you find the comfort you need in your own life. No one should have said that about you or hurt you in that way. You were just a little girl, and none of that was your fault.

[truncated]

Yes, OP...I'm so sorry for your loss . What you were told about treatment was really insensitive.

 

thank you.

 

Personally, I'm not saying there isn't some higher being, but I'm also ot saying there is.

 

I'm saying i don't know.

[Weezy1973]

Trying to convince people of certain worldviews is hardly relegated to religion. It actually happens all the time, in many different domains. The problem is that we as humans almost always think we're right. We know what we believe is "for sure" true. Beyond any doubt.

 

Which is why, if you're actually looking to find what is true (rather than just confirm your preexisting belief), basing those beliefs on reason, facts and evidence is the way to go. That's why science is such an effective method for gaining knowledge of the universe. And why science has largely forced various religions to keep updating the interpretation of and redefining their scripture.

[pureinheart]

Trying to convince people of certain worldviews is hardly relegated to religion. It actually happens all the time, in many different domains. The problem is that we as humans almost always think we're right. We know what we believe is "for sure" true. Beyond any doubt.

 

Which is why, if you're actually looking to find what is true (rather than just confirm your preexisting belief), basing those beliefs on reason, facts and evidence is the way to go. That's why science is such an effective method for gaining knowledge of the universe. And why science has largely forced various religions to keep updating the interpretation of and redefining their scripture.

 

...and it's beyond cool that science is finally catching up with the Bible.

[Mr Scorpio]

I'm saying i don't know.

 

This is generally the definition associated with agnosticism, that one does not "know". However, more specifically, the word refers to the ability to know.

 

That is to say, an individual could be agnostic in the sense that they believe God is divine and supernatural and unknowable, but yet still be a Christian based on their belief. Or so I've been lead to believe.

[digdug75]

QUOTE=truncated;6327313]Part 1: As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

 

Such religious people are discussed in New testament(its unfortunate that you have encountered them) Scriptures can be applied to most if not all things. I personally like this definition of religion: something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience. This definition applies to all beliefs from my point of view.

 

For example, one person told me my daughter's depression was due to her being possessed by a demon, and that if i had really wanted to help her, I should have taken her to church.

 

Yikes! what scripture reference did they give you for this belief? (referring to demons) Church is beneficial in many ways can provide with added support and many other things. Church does not keep people from receiving trials in life. I guess I don't really know where they were going with that comment towards you!

 

 

\We get people coming to our door ( usually mormons of jehova's witnesses) trying to give me literature.

 

 

Ya from what I understand it is part of there belief to reach out to all those who do not understand God, want to understand God, and people tools to find God. Even Catholics in some areas do this. Though I think the belief is that it is commanded of them to teach, and proclaim the gospel of God. Possibility of them returning to your home maybe, a new person has moved into that home. Just being basic!

 

why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief?

 

 

I do not know why some as you have mentioned don't respect the fact that you don't believe. In what ways have you been shown disrespect on you had told those you don't believe and are not interested in hearing anymore. last part of question is that to question your belief or theirs?

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

 

Have they told you were evil because you don't agree with them or was that just the impression you got from them? Scriptures clearly show that Judging in the form of condemning, persecuting, and ridicule is unacceptable for us on earth. According to scripture. People seem to through the word judgment around as if there is only one way to judge. In what other ways have you been judged? Maybe I can give you a good scripture for you to give those Christians that judge righteously.

 

their need to inject their beliefs into my life.

 

 

What do you mean by inject their beliefs into your life?

 

I try and be polite, and see no value in insulting them. I have no problem with their beliefs if they bring them comfort and are used as a reason to do good in the world.

 

 

I have so many questions I would like to ask you about this statement!

 

I have my own views on religion that differ greatly form theirs, but don't ridicule them, and I don't expect them to think and feel the way I do about something so personal.

 

 

It would be interesting to understand your point of view though. As agnostic do you see yourself as a sign seeker? Meaning when someone says there is a God. Would your reply be something like prove he exists. Show me God.

 

With the individual who told me my daughter's depression was caused by her being possessed by a demon, it wans;t while she was ill, it was after she was gone. They told me it was my fault and if i had have taken her to church, it wouldn't have happened.

 

 

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? I suffer from deep depression. I believe Jesus Christ exists, and I am NOT possessed by demons. Nobody is at fault for my depression. Nobody is held accountable for the choices I make due to my depression except for me. Scriptures enforce my thoughts stated.

 

That's the kind of thing I find disgusting.

 

 

You say you find what was said to you disgusting. I would feel similar more on the insulted side though.

 

 

Are you into philosophy at all?

 

 

Thing about life as I see it is that there are so many people in this world. With all these people there is such a wide spectrum of personalities, beliefs, interpretations, reactions to actions, and opinions. That the best one person can do, is what your doing. That is trying your best to be polite, patient, understanding, and respectful. Sorry you had such an experience pertaining to your daughter.

[Mr Carson]

thank you.

 

Personally, I'm not saying there isn't some higher being, but I'm also ot saying there is.

 

I'm saying i don't know.

 

When I look at the earth and space and the wonders around us, I know in my heart there a God. I know this is not all a cosmic accident, it's just sad what religions have done to people. At least the Bible doesn't hide the flaws of the main characters, like modern religions do.

[Mr Scorpio]

When I look at the earth and space and the wonders around us, I know in my heart there a God. I know this is not all a cosmic accident, it's just sad what religions have done to people. At least the Bible doesn't hide the flaws of the main characters, like modern religions do.

 

"A God" or the Christian God? God can be a rather broad term at times.

[digdug75]

Trying to convince people of certain worldviews is hardly relegated to religion. It actually happens all the time, in many different domains. The problem is that we as humans almost always think we're right. We know what we believe is "for sure" true. Beyond any doubt.

 

Which is why, if you're actually looking to find what is true (rather than just confirm your preexisting belief), basing those beliefs on reason, facts and evidence is the way to go. That's why science is such an effective method for gaining knowledge of the universe. And why science has largely forced various religions to keep updating the interpretation of and redefining their scripture.

 

Fact: a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.

 

Evidence: 1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. 2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:

 

Reason: 1. a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.:

the reason for declaring war.2. a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action: 3. the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences: 4. sound judgment; good sense. 5. normal or sound powers of mind; sanity. 6. Logic. a premise for argument. 7. Philosophy. A) the faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of first principles or by argument. B) the power of intelligent and dispassionate thought, or of conduct influenced by such thought

 

Logic: the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: 3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: 5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:

 

Truth: 1. the true or actual state of a matter: 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence.

 

Reality: the state or quality of being real. Philosophy. 1. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it. 2. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.

 

Real: true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent: .2. existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary, ideal, or fictitious: 3. being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary: 4. being actually such; not merely so-called: 5. genuine; not counterfeit, artificial, or imitation; authentic:

 

I look at these words and wonder. How does a religious person or person that has chosen to believe in God not use reason, facts, and evidence?

 

From what I understand people are individuals. They go through experiences. They are taught certain ways of life as they grow up, either from parents, foster parents, relatives, or other. Truth, reality, understanding, of a person is based on the experience of the individual. Right!? So if one has not experienced the same as another. How can one conclude another's experience as faulty/untrue?

 

Science is great. Science has the ability to provide information of the physical world. Though many theories can be and with some theories are debatable. The study of dimensions would suggest a possible state of spiritual existence. Unfortunately Spirituality/spirit/soul in a way is immeasurable through science. So science is only able to prove to a degree some form of truth dealing with physical things. Religion can incorporate science and spirituality. Just my thoughts! I think of this quote by Albert Einstein "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

[Mr Carson]

"A God" or the Christian God? God can be a rather broad term at times.

 

Christ the Christian God, I should have clarified.

[TheFinalWord]

Good question about the lukewarm!

 

In Revelation, Christ rebukes the lukewarm church of Laodicea (in modern day Turkey)...

 

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

 

Interesting context noted by Rick Renner...

The city of Laodicea was built in a region that was full of seismic activity and had experienced many earthquakes. As often happens in a seismic area, vents came up from the depths of the earth, allowing boiling hot water to reach the surface. In the nearby city of Hierapolis, these hot springs were famous. People came from great distances to bathe in those waters, believing they had medicinal powers. An experience in those waters was viewed to be therapeutic and effective in improving one's health.

Another city named Colosse was not too far away. As Hierapolis was known for its hot springs, Colosse was known for its cold waters. Just as people journeyed to Hierapolis to bathe in the hot springs for health purposes, people would travel great distances to vacation in Colosse, where they could invigorate themselves by taking frequent dips into the famous, refreshing, cool-to-freezing waters of that city.

Laodicea may have been the biggest and richest city in the area, but it had neither hot nor cold water. Therefore, the people of Laodicea had to leave their luxurious homes and travel to Colosse if they wanted to enjoy fresh, cool water. On the other hand, those who desired to soak in the hot springs had to travel six miles to Hierapolis.

Once in an attempt to bring the hot water from Hierapolis to Laodicea, a huge construction project was commenced. The goal of those who initiated the project was to build pipes that would channel the hot water six miles from Hierapolis to the city of Laodicea. The pipes effectively delivered the water - a real feat of construction at that time. Sadly, however, the water lost its heat along the way. By the time the water reached Laodicea, it was not only lukewarm, but it had developed a sickening, nauseating taste. The taste was

so

revolting that no one wanted to drink it!

No, I know I saw an angel (there were others there as well). A

 

If it's any consultation, I received a vision of an angel in the past...not something I share too often, but it was very vivid and in a split second when I was spared (I believe an angel protected me) from a potentially deadly situation.

[Mr Scorpio]

Christ the Christian God, I should have clarified.

 

And may I respectfully ask how it is -- from looking at the Earth and space and wonders around us -- that you know that this is the creation of the Christian God, as opposed to the Muslim God, or a God yet to reveal itself to us?

[pureinheart]

Good question about the lukewarm!

 

In Revelation, Christ rebukes the lukewarm church of Laodicea (in modern day Turkey)...

 

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

 

Interesting context noted by Rick Renner...

The city of Laodicea was built in a region that was full of seismic activity and had experienced many earthquakes. As often happens in a seismic area, vents came up from the depths of the earth, allowing boiling hot water to reach the surface. In the nearby city of Hierapolis, these hot springs were famous. People came from great distances to bathe in those waters, believing they had medicinal powers. An experience in those waters was viewed to be therapeutic and effective in improving one's health.

Another city named Colosse was not too far away. As Hierapolis was known for its hot springs, Colosse was known for its cold waters. Just as people journeyed to Hierapolis to bathe in the hot springs for health purposes, people would travel great distances to vacation in Colosse, where they could invigorate themselves by taking frequent dips into the famous, refreshing, cool-to-freezing waters of that city.

Laodicea may have been the biggest and richest city in the area, but it had neither hot nor cold water. Therefore, the people of Laodicea had to leave their luxurious homes and travel to Colosse if they wanted to enjoy fresh, cool water. On the other hand, those who desired to soak in the hot springs had to travel six miles to Hierapolis.

Once in an attempt to bring the hot water from Hierapolis to Laodicea, a huge construction project was commenced. The goal of those who initiated the project was to build pipes that would channel the hot water six miles from Hierapolis to the city of Laodicea. The pipes effectively delivered the water - a real feat of construction at that time. Sadly, however, the water lost its heat along the way. By the time the water reached Laodicea, it was not only lukewarm, but it had developed a sickening, nauseating taste. The taste was

so

revolting that no one wanted to drink it!

 

If it's any consultation, I received a vision of an angel in the past...not something I share too often, but it was very vivid and in a split second when I was spared (I believe an angel protected me) from a potentially deadly situation.

 

Interesting history concerning the 'hot and cold' springs of that region, lol still 'chewing' on that one! One commentary states that God was speaking to those that were 'neutral' in Laodicea, meaning not taking a stand with much of anything.

 

If you've been 'touched by an angel', you know it. It's undeniable. Thanks for sharing that TFW. You were allowed to have this knowledge and I have to wonder how many times God used His angels to protect us without our knowledge!

 

That has happened a few times (the protection thing), although I can't say for sure, although the circumstances were not human IMO.

[digdug75]

Wow! I read some more replies on this post. Fascinating!

 

 

The dislike towards religion or a person that believes in God is bewildering!

 

 

It is like there is some sort of refusal of wanting to understand. No real discussion.

 

 

I see an extreme dislike towards Christians. Kind of reminds me of racism.

 

 

What is so offensive to others involving God? To bad we are unable to see facial expressions, or hear tone of voice. Sure would make it a bit easier to know if someone was being sarcastic, if a person is angry, or if person is just asking questions to discredit vs trying to understand.

 

 

We are told that society is different than the past. That society has evolved. If this is true I don't see how anything has changed in the form of wanting to gain understanding of one another, to defuse conflict.

[pureinheart]

Wow! I read some more replies on this post. Fascinating!

 

 

The dislike towards religion or a person that believes in God is bewildering!

 

 

It is like there is some sort of refusal of wanting to understand. No real discussion.

 

 

I see an extreme dislike towards Christians. Kind of reminds me of racism.

 

 

What is so offensive to others involving God? To bad we are unable to see facial expressions, or hear tone of voice. Sure would make it a bit easier to know if someone was being sarcastic, if a person is angry, or if person is just asking questions to discredit vs trying to understand.

 

 

We are told that society is different than the past. That society has evolved. If this is true I don't see how anything has changed in the form of wanting to gain understanding of one another, to defuse conflict.

 

So you see it too. I've started a couple of threads addressing this matter in the past. IMO society as a whole has regressed into a deeper form of hate.

 

Honestly, I had to stay off of the internet for a time because the level of hate and reading the hate was so high that it interfered with my healing.

[digdug75]

@truncated

Geese I see some errors I have made in replying to you truncated. Sorry about that truncated. would like to edit reply towards you, because some things don't read as I thought they would when I wrote them. I meant no disrespect towards you if it reads that way to you.

[digdug75]

So you see it too. I've started a couple of threads addressing this matter in the past. IMO society as a whole has regressed into a deeper form of hate.

 

Honestly, I had to stay off of the internet for a time because the level of hate and reading the hate was so high that it interfered with my healing.

 

 

what was the outcome of those threads?

 

 

Healing? what happened to you?

[William]

Folks, let's get back to this:

As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

Feel free to discuss other aspects of religion/agnostic/atheism in other threads or continue discussions in existing threads on those aspects in those threads. Thanks in advance for your cooperation with this moderation directive!

[pureinheart]

what was the outcome of those threads?

 

 

Healing? what happened to you?

 

Those threads, especially the last one, proved to be quite fruitful and I think the bottom line was to agree to disagree. Basically I think there was an understanding concerning both sides and views reached.

 

Since then I've learned that there are a couple of members that will blast all faiths if they're acting crazy... which I can respect, as it felt like Christianity was being singled out. Just want to say this about a member that posted in this thread, Mr. S., he just likes to discuss and likes to know why people on any given subject believe what they believe... I also think he likes for the poster to understand why they believe a particular way. He has challenged me big time in the past. It was hard actually communicating certain things, but it was a good learning lesson for me.

 

Concerning heath... got really sick and to this day there are still no answers with the exception of a possible stomach ulcer. I had one as a teen, but never got that sick. The doctors chalked it up to stress, and in the process found I'm actually doing very well and basically have the body of a 30 yr old *ALL OF THE GLORY GOES TO GOD, as I did little to make this happen and I'm boasting in Jesus, not in myself* Personally, I think it was God. There was a desire to be rid of a few of REALLY BAD habits and God made it happen... in this case, pain proved to be a very good thing.

 

 

 

 

Hi William, saw your post after the fact...

[Mr Scorpio]

I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

I would guess that there are a few reasons.

 

Some people wrap themselves very tightly in their faith such that it becomes a part of their very fabric. They do not dissociate themselves from their beliefs. I've heard from folks who identified themselves as "a Christian, a father/spouse, and a [insert occupation]. In that order.

 

In other words, they put their faith above their own family. And so when such a person encounters an atheist (or even an agnostic) it can be jarring.

 

Add to that the belief of many theists that God is innate and omnipresent. That even the Kung Bushman, who had never heard the word "Jesus" spoken before, would be condemned for not accepting Christ because even aborigines "know Christ in their hearts".

 

Thus, it isn't simply that you don't believe something for which you haven't been convinced by evidence. You are actively rejecting an eternal and invaluable gift of sacrifice on the cross.

 

In the end, it likely comes down to morality. To the theist, God created everything, including morality. If you reject God, you are rejecting morality. If you don't have morals, you can't be trustworthy. Even a mass-murderer can repent and confess and be saved. But a haughty atheist? Why even bother.

 

This attitude is reflected consistently in American politics:

 

Americans Would Rather Vote For A Philandering, Pot-Smoking President Than An Atheist One

 

Atheists, Muslims See Most Bias as Presidential Candidates

 

Granted, "mainstream media" does not reflect this sentiment. Plenty of theists will proclaim that the media is anti-Christian, anti-God, anti-family values, etc. Such a discussion is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

However, at least one study claims that atheists are the most vilified minority in America (47% of respondents to a 2003 survey indicated that they would disapprove of their child marrying an atheist).

 

Thus, it seems that while Hollywood and the "liberal media" are fine with bashing Christians for their beliefs, that everyone else is fine with bashing atheists for their lackof belief.

 

That is why I keep my mouth shut in public. Someone somehow removed the Darwin-fish sticker I had on my bumper when I was younger. I don't consider it a conversation worth having, as so few people that I've encountered were capable of having a dispassionate discussion on the subject. That is what this site is for.