The Duggar Family is so Inspirational!!

[autumnnight]

The officers involved in obstructing justice should be dealt with. That is just....reprehensible.

[writergal]

This part of the article stood out for me, because of the irony behind it:

 

The Duggars haven’t shied away from “protecting” children in other contexts. As Right Wing Watch reports, last year Josh Duggar “led a successful campaign to defeat a LGBT nondiscrimination measure in Fayetteville, Arkansas, which he said jeopardized the safety of children,” and that his mother “also ran a robocall pushing for the repeal of the city’s nondiscrimination ordinance, which she warned would empower ‘child predators’ to threaten ‘the safety and innocence of a child.’”

 

So, Michelle wants to protect Arkansas' children from 'child predators' knowing that her own son Josh is one.

[pureinheart]

It seems obvious to me that we should deal seriously with both ISIS and families/organizations that cover up for child molesters.

 

XO, having been involved with mostly (if not) all of the threads concerning ISIS I just don't see the complete and total disgust that I am on this thread. I think that's telling and rather interesting.

[pureinheart]

Wow. I've never heard of them, but I have to say that sounds really refreshing. Finally we can see some traditional values, instead of all those other awful and hedonistic reality shows. I need to find out about these people.

 

Google, here I come.

 

This is going to be great...

 

Hm... Well, I'm staying away from that Google from now on. My eyes are burning from all the evil I read about. Thanks a lot for the recommendation, pureinheart.

 

You're welcome.

[xxoo]

This part of the article stood out for me, because of the irony behind it:

 

 

 

So, Michelle wants to protect Arkansas' children from 'child predators' knowing that her own son Josh is one.

 

Yes, that really bothers me. The audacity to play the "child molester" card (with no basis, imo) when you know that your own son has already molested children. How do they sleep at night? How do you look your own children in the eye?

[writergal]

Yes, that really bothers me. The audacity to play the "child molester" card (with no basis, imo) when you know that your own son has already molested children. How do they sleep at night? How do you look your own children in the eye?

 

Because all they see are $$$$ from their reality tv show and endorsements that go with it? That's my guess. You have to question Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar's internal moral compass. It's either broken or non-existent.

[autumnnight]

Today I thought of the ripple effects of this kind of story.

 

I realized last night that I have been on a small sort of emotional roller coaster for the last 24 hours, not just because of my own past abuse, but also because of the spiritual abuse I suffered as a part of the whole Bill Gothard "movement" in my younger years. This story has just brought it all back.

 

I wonder how many other people have had the same issues over the last few days.

 

This site illuminates a lot about the movement:

 

Bill Gothard | Recovering Grace

[writergal]

Today I thought of the ripple effects of this kind of story.

 

I realized last night that I have been on a small sort of emotional roller coaster for the last 24 hours, not just because of my own past abuse, but also because of the spiritual abuse I suffered as a part of the whole Bill Gothard "movement" in my younger years. This story has just brought it all back.

 

I wonder how many other people have had the same issues over the last few days.

 

This site illuminates a lot about the movement:

 

Bill Gothard | Recovering Grace

 

Wow. That reminds me of Scientology. Scary!

 

But the emotional rollercoaster you've been on is good. I'd call it an epiphany or awakening to the spiritual abuse that Goddard Movement did to you. Now you are free of it and can recover and heal as an adult.

 

The Duggars are victims of themselves, as far as I see it. The more I read and find out about their family practices and belief systems, the more I cringe and feel bad for the sisters who Josh molested.

[autumnnight]

I did a lot of spiritual work once I got away from that. Lost some friends, sadly, but gained some peace.

[xxoo]

I did a lot of spiritual work once I got away from that. Lost some friends, sadly, but gained some peace.

 

Congrats on break free

[writergal]

I did a lot of spiritual work once I got away from that. Lost some friends, sadly, but gained some peace.

 

We tend to lose 'friends' when we change and grow into better people. Those 'friends' no longer fit the new you, so it's good that they didn't continue on your journey with you. Otherwise, they'd be a hindrance to your growth.

 

There hasn't been any coverage on the victims of Josh Duggar. I can only hope those girls have the strength to come forward and don't let their parents dictate their lives' directions anymore. The whole chaperone business on dates that the Duggars require of their children makes me think it's because of Josh.

[Michelle ma Belle]

All I have to say is the level of irony and hypocrisy regarding the Duggars is MIND NUMBING!

 

Shameful.

[123321]

Reading sh*t like this makes me glad I don't watch TV.

[Mr Scorpio]

XO, having been involved with mostly (if not) all of the threads concerning ISIS I just don't see the complete and total disgust that I am on this thread. I think that's telling and rather interesting.

 

I think there are a few ways one can interpret this, if we assume it to be true.

 

1. American media is very much "done and onto the next one". Isis is "old news". Bloodshed in the Middle-East is even older than that. This story is "new news" to a lot of people.

 

2. ISIS is a complicated problem spawned by decades of short-sighted foreign policy going back to the colonial-era. There is no simple solution to that issue. The Duggar "issue" is simpler to solve.

 

3. No one created a thread entitled "Radical Muslim Armies are so Inspirational!".

 

4. Americans -- even conservative ones -- don't tend to get overly squeemish about violence. Sex on the other hand they get outraged over. While ISIS is purported to have committed sexual crimes, even against children, I would guess that the knee-jerk reaction is "oh, 'just' some beheadings".

 

5. Politics. Some folks seem to use ISIS stories to continue the theme of conservatives/Christians being persecuted/oppressed. They point out the hypocrisy of some others who get upset at Christianity but not Islam.

 

Meanwhile, people on the flip-side will use this story to continue the theme of some conservatives/Christians being hypocrites, especially as it relates to moral issues.

 

Take your pick. None of the interpretations change the basic facts of what happened. However...

 

Hey Deb, they are a beautiful family who hold Christian values dear. They are up to 20 kids now (?) and do a reality show of their family and how they operate. I agree with OP, they are truly amazing.

 

In light of what we know now, what about them do you find truly amazing?

[Taramere]

Josh Duggar is not 14 years old anymore. He's 27 years old, married with 2 sons and a daughter and another child on the way. At 14 years old, he knew right from wrong so there's no excuse good enough to justify his actions of molesting his own sisters against their will.

 

So many people in this thread are excusing Josh Duggar because he was a teenager, ignoring the fact that juveniles who perform sex abuse against other juveniles are in fact, sexual predators themselves. He wasn't just curious. It's totally abnormal for a 14 year old teenage boy to sneak into his sisters' room at night to fondle their breasts and touch their private areas.

 

I too am absolutely stunned that anybody would underplay that. To me, a person would have to be stuck in the dark ages not to see something seriously wrong with a 14 year old boy going into his sisters' bedroom and sexually abusing them.

 

As to what steps the parents took to deal with it, I went to have a look on Wiki - since it tends to cut to the chase - and it seems as though one of the sister's told Dad Duggar about the abuse in March 2002, Josh Duggar admitted it in July - and then he was sent to work for a family friend. Which presumably was their approach to protecting their other kids from him.

 

Getting him out of the family home is appropriate in terms of protecting their own kids, but it doesn't help to protect other kids from him if they were basically keeping his behaviour other wraps. If he had contact with other kids while he was out of the family home. It seems that they finally told a state trooper about him once he returned to the family home - but the matter seems to have pretty much been brushed under the carpet, with the boy just getting a "talking to".

 

I don't know how the law is in the US, but where I live that state trooper would have had a duty to refer the matter on to social service agencies. A child protection investigation would then have taken place, and Josh would have been removed from the family home (maybe placed in foster care, if he was still under 16 and provided there were no other children in the foster home).

 

It just seems bizarre that this was dealt with in such an "informal" manner. And from what I can see, following this incident the Duggars featured on some reality tv programme and are famed for being a wholesome, religious family who home school all their children.

 

It's exactly the sort of scenario, to be honest, in which I would expect allegations of sibling molestation to arise. Add into the mix the fact that the whole family had a reality tv show built around them and it's pretty clearly a dysfunctional set up.

 

Showbiz and kids notoriously do not mix well, with the latter frequently being exploited by the latter and developing various emotional problems in subsequent years. There's been so many examples, over the years, of showbiz and children being a dubious combination that you wonder how much more there needs to be before people will wake up and see something like the Duggars, their huge family, their home schooling and their reality tv show as a bit of a red flag.

 

In fairness to the Duggar parents, it could have been a whole lot worse. They did make sure, once they heard about the allegations, that the boy was moved out of the family home. The fact that one of their daughters felt able to disclose the allegations to the father suggests that this is a family where kids know that sexual abuse is wrong and feel able to make these disclosures to their parents.

 

So although absolutely, they should have gone straight to the authorities about this, at least it doesn't appear to be the case that the child making the disclosure was ignored or dismissed...or that abuse was something that was "normalised" within the family. There was certainly potential for it to be way worse in a set up of the kind the Duggars have, but that doesn't mean it's not extremely serious...or that it wasn't handled inadequately by the parents and the state trooper (who I should have thought completely failed in his professional and legal duties).

 

For anybody to normalise the sexual molestation, by a 14 year old boy, of his sleeping siblings is highly concerning. That's nothing close to being normal childish experimentation. It's sexual abuse within a family by a boy who's well old enough to know that he's doing something extremely wrong.

 

The problem is that historically there have been families who didn't really think that sexual abuse within the family was that big a deal. I occasionally encountered such families in my old profession. They would acknowledge that society saw it as wrong, and that the authorities had the power to remove children from homes where they were at risk of it...but from their perspective, the authorities were over-reacting, and it didn't do kids any harm to be groomed and used sexually by older family members.

 

That's really how they looked at it, and I have no doubt there are still families out there who continue to hold those beliefs. Who believe that a 14 year old sexually molesting his younger sisters is just part of the rough and tumble of kids growing up in a large family.

[xxoo]

 

Getting him out of the family home is appropriate in terms of protecting their own kids, but it doesn't help to protect other kids from him if they were basically keeping his behaviour other wraps. If he had contact with other kids while he was out of the family home. It seems that they finally told a state trooper about him once he returned to the family home - but the matter seems to have pretty much been brushed under the carpet, with the boy just getting a "talking to".

 

I don't know how the law is in the US, but where I live that state trooper would have had a duty to refer the matter on to social service agencies. A child protection investigation would then have taken place, and Josh would have been removed from the family home (maybe placed in foster care, if he was still under 16 and provided there were no other children in the foster home).

 

The state trooper was chosen by the church elders, and for a reason. They knew he would keep it quiet, even though he was legally obligated to report (and mandatory reporter). He risked his job to cover that up.

 

Later that year, the same state trooper was arrested on charges of child pornography, and is currently serving 56 years. This is the "much worse" part of the whole scenario. How did the church elders know that this state trooper would keep it quiet? Obviously, someone was personally connected. The reason for that connection is speculation, but looks bad.

[writergal]

I agree with your observations about how families tend to downplay the seriousness of juvenile to juvenile sex abuse, because those kids grow up to become pedophiles (would be my guess).

 

The only correction to your post I'd make fact-wise, (wiki is semi-reliable I've found using it myself as a resource) is that Michelle Duggar later admitted to the media and to police that she and Jim Bob never sent Josh to that Christian Treatment Center 'work camp' run by that wacko named Goddard. Where Michelle and Jim Bob actually sent Josh was to some family friend who renovated homes for a living. For how long, is not clear.

 

And Josh Duggar was charged with 4th degree molestion during his investigation. But that damn state trooper got involved. Now, a judge has destroyed Josh Duggar's police records. That itself is shocking. That a judge can publicly destroy old police records since the legal statute to charge Josh Duggar ran out already.

 

Maybe the Duggars figured that they could save their reputation and Josh's reputation by having that public record destroyed. But it's too late for that now that the media has copies of that police record. So, Josh Duggar's sexual molestation crimes will always be out there in cyberspace for everyone to pull up and read about.

 

Josh Duggar can't run away from his past no matter what documents he destroys. People (his victims, his family) know what he did. Now the public knows. As far as he's concerned, his life will consist of backtracking, coverups and more lies.

 

And yeah, that state trooper thwarted the investigation by not forwarding the information to social services. Really what should have happened, was to have all the Duggar children removed from the home and put into foster care. But 19 kids? That would take a lot of work.

 

Justice was not served in the case of the Duggar daughters who Josh Duggar molested. That whole family should have its own chapter in the DSM-IV.

 

I too am absolutely stunned that anybody would underplay that. To me, a person would have to be stuck in the dark ages not to see something seriously wrong with a 14 year old boy going into his sisters' bedroom and sexually abusing them.

 

As to what steps the parents took to deal with it, I went to have a look on Wiki - since it tends to cut to the chase - and it seems as though one of the sister's told Dad Duggar about the abuse in March 2002, Josh Duggar admitted it in July - and then he was sent to work for a family friend. Which presumably was their approach to protecting their other kids from him.

 

Getting him out of the family home is appropriate in terms of protecting their own kids, but it doesn't help to protect other kids from him if they were basically keeping his behaviour other wraps. If he had contact with other kids while he was out of the family home. It seems that they finally told a state trooper about him once he returned to the family home - but the matter seems to have pretty much been brushed under the carpet, with the boy just getting a "talking to".

 

I don't know how the law is in the US, but where I live that state trooper would have had a duty to refer the matter on to social service agencies. A child protection investigation would then have taken place, and Josh would have been removed from the family home (maybe placed in foster care, if he was still under 16 and provided there were no other children in the foster home).

 

It just seems bizarre that this was dealt with in such an "informal" manner. And from what I can see, following this incident the Duggars featured on some reality tv programme and are famed for being a wholesome, religious family who home school all their children.

 

It's exactly the sort of scenario, to be honest, in which I would expect allegations of sibling molestation to arise. Add into the mix the fact that the whole family had a reality tv show built around them and it's pretty clearly a dysfunctional set up.

 

Showbiz and kids notoriously do not mix well, with the latter frequently being exploited by the latter and developing various emotional problems in subsequent years. There's been so many examples, over the years, of showbiz and children being a dubious combination that you wonder how much more there needs to be before people will wake up and see something like the Duggars, their huge family, their home schooling and their reality tv show as a bit of a red flag.

 

In fairness to the Duggar parents, it could have been a whole lot worse. They did make sure, once they heard about the allegations, that the boy was moved out of the family home. The fact that one of their daughters felt able to disclose the allegations to the father suggests that this is a family where kids know that sexual abuse is wrong and feel able to make these disclosures to their parents.

 

So although absolutely, they should have gone straight to the authorities about this, at least it doesn't appear to be the case that the child making the disclosure was ignored or dismissed...or that abuse was something that was "normalised" within the family. There was certainly potential for it to be way worse in a set up of the kind the Duggars have, but that doesn't mean it's not extremely serious...or that it wasn't handled inadequately by the parents and the state trooper (who I should have thought completely failed in his professional and legal duties).

 

For anybody to normalise the sexual molestation, by a 14 year old boy, of his sleeping siblings is highly concerning. That's nothing close to being normal childish experimentation. It's sexual abuse within a family by a boy who's well old enough to know that he's doing something extremely wrong.

 

The problem is that historically there have been families who didn't really think that sexual abuse within the family was that big a deal. I occasionally encountered such families in my old profession. They would acknowledge that society saw it as wrong, and that the authorities had the power to remove children from homes where they were at risk of it...but from their perspective, the authorities were over-reacting, and it didn't do kids any harm to be groomed and used sexually by older family members.

 

That's really how they looked at it, and I have no doubt there are still families out there who continue to hold those beliefs. Who believe that a 14 year old sexually molesting his younger sisters is just part of the rough and tumble of kids growing up in a large family.

[Taramere]

The state trooper was chosen by the church elders, and for a reason. They knew he would keep it quiet, even though he was legally obligated to report (and mandatory reporter). He risked his job to cover that up.

 

Later that year, the same state trooper was arrested on charges of child pornography, and is currently serving 56 years. This is the "much worse" part of the whole scenario. How did the church elders know that this state trooper would keep it quiet? Obviously, someone was personally connected. The reason for that connection is speculation, but looks bad.

 

Oh my God. I must admit that I only skimmed through the wiki entry.

 

What a mess. It's quite reminiscent of the scandal of child abuse disclosures being "dealt with internally" by the Catholic Church.

[OpenBook]

In fairness to the Duggar parents, it could have been a whole lot worse. They did make sure, once they heard about the allegations, that the boy was moved out of the family home. The fact that one of their daughters felt able to disclose the allegations to the father suggests that this is a family where kids know that sexual abuse is wrong and feel able to make these disclosures to their parents.

 

This is about the only reassuring fact about the whole thing, and something I didn't consider before. Thanks for pointing that out Taramere. It made my stomach stop lurching.

 

The problem is that historically there have been families who didn't really think that sexual abuse within the family was that big a deal. I occasionally encountered such families in my old profession... and I have no doubt there are still families out there who continue to hold those beliefs. Who believe that a 14 year old sexually molesting his younger sisters is just part of the rough and tumble of kids growing up in a large family.

 

Absolutely. Never never NEVER should humanity stop upholding this. It's WRONG and SICK and FULL OF EVIL and no child should ever be exposed to it. Period.

[Michelle ma Belle]

I'm fine with those that say the blame lies primarily with the parents for the level of dysfunction that clearly exists in that family. I'm also fine with those that claim unconditional love for a child that may have behaved so inappropriately BUT do NOT sit there and downplay or take away the severity of the situation in terms of Josh not having the wherewithal at the time. It's an insult to all survivors.

 

I was molested twice; the first time I was about 5 years old and it was by a family member (cousin) who was also a teenager. The second time I was around 11 or 12 and it was by a family "friend" (older man).

 

Trust me, the teenager in my particular case knew exactly what they were doing when they were doing it. Don't be so foolish to think that 14 is too young to know any better because they do.

[johan]

 

1. American media is very much "done and onto the next one". Isis is "old news". Bloodshed in the Middle-East is even older than that. This story is "new news" to a lot of people.

 

2. ISIS is a complicated problem spawned by decades of short-sighted foreign policy going back to the colonial-era. There is no simple solution to that issue. The Duggar "issue" is simpler to solve.

 

3. No one created a thread entitled "Radical Muslim Armies are so Inspirational!".

 

4. Americans -- even conservative ones -- don't tend to get overly squeemish about violence. Sex on the other hand they get outraged over. While ISIS is purported to have committed sexual crimes, even against children, I would guess that the knee-jerk reaction is "oh, 'just' some beheadings".

 

5. Politics. Some folks seem to use ISIS stories to continue the theme of conservatives/Christians being persecuted/oppressed. They point out the hypocrisy of some others who get upset at Christianity but not Islam.

 

 

6. Some would point out that ISIS was the spawn of misguided US "conservative" right-wing policies enacted by another "beautiful family who hold Christian values dear". It's worth wondering whether ISIS is really the problem we should be addressing. The last thing we need is President Duggar trying to take out his sexual frustrations on Russia or China, so it's possible we're in the process of dodging a bullet with all this scandal.

[writergal]

I'm fine with those that say the blame lies primarily with the parents for the level of dysfunction that clearly exists in that family. I'm also fine with those that claim unconditional love for a child that may have behaved so inappropriately BUT do NOT sit there and downplay or take away the severity of the situation in terms of Josh not having the wherewithal at the time. It's an insult to all survivors.

 

I was molested twice; the first time I was about 5 years old and it was by a family member (cousin) who was also a teenager. The second time I was around 11 or 12 and it was by a family "friend" (older man).

 

Trust me, the teenager in my particular case knew exactly what they were doing when they were doing it. Don't be so foolish to think that 14 is too young to know any better because they do.

 

I agree. There's a lot of downplay going on in this thread about the severity of the situation as you said, which is an insult to Josh's 5 victims and to pretty much all sexual abuse victims.

 

Even if Josh Duggar's motivation for molesting his 5 victims was sexual curiosity - it's still sexual abuse because it was non-consensual (I mean, he snuck into their bedrooms at night while his sisters slept that's disturbing). He clearly violated his sisters' rights by molesting them, because it was impulsive behavior that reflects very poor judgment and someone who is probably very mentally ill.

 

I agree with you too Michelle, that Josh Duggar knew exactly what he was doing when he was 14 years old. In fact, there is literature out there that documents even younger children than 14 years old, sexually abusing other children, younger than themselves.

 

Look at how the media inundates children with sexual images to sell their products. Even cartoons have adult language and sexuality now which is extremely disturbing. Sexualization of kids has been happening for a long time, but it seems like it's worse now that kids have access to the internet 24/7. Even magazines like Vogue, and fashion designers sexualize kid models having them pose naked and then Vogue or some other magazine publishes those clothing ads with naked kids. It's disgusting! Instead of just learning about sex from their parents, now kids have limitless sources to learn about sex from. How scary is that?! 10 year old kids now think the same way as a 20 year old.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your own sexual abuse Michelle.

[Michelle ma Belle]

I agree. There's a lot of downplay going on in this thread about the severity of the situation as you said, which is an insult to Josh's 5 victims and to pretty much all sexual abuse victims.

 

Even if Josh Duggar's motivation for molesting his 5 victims was sexual curiosity - it's still sexual abuse because it was non-consensual (I mean, he snuck into their bedrooms at night while his sisters slept that's disturbing). He clearly violated his sisters' rights by molesting them, because it was impulsive behavior that reflects very poor judgment and someone who is probably very mentally ill.

 

I agree with you too Michelle, that Josh Duggar knew exactly what he was doing when he was 14 years old. In fact, there is literature out there that documents even younger children than 14 years old, sexually abusing other children, younger than themselves.

 

Look at how the media inundates children with sexual images to sell their products. Even cartoons have adult language and sexuality now which is extremely disturbing. Sexualization of kids has been happening for a long time, but it seems like it's worse now that kids have access to the internet 24/7. Even magazines like Vogue, and fashion designers sexualize kid models having them pose naked and then Vogue or some other magazine publishes those clothing ads with naked kids. It's disgusting! Instead of just learning about sex from their parents, now kids have limitless sources to learn about sex from. How scary is that?! 10 year old kids now think the same way as a 20 year old.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your own sexual abuse Michelle.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm happy to say that I think I've managed to deal with many if not all my demons regarding the molestation and am living a very happy, healthy and "normal" life as a result. I can't say it was always that way which is why I tend to be very passionate when it comes to victim's rights regardless of the kind of abuse.

[johan]

It happened to my wife. She won't talk about it much, but it has affected her into adulthood in noticeable ways. I think she's learning to leave it behind though.

[xxoo]

Oh my God. I must admit that I only skimmed through the wiki entry.

 

What a mess. It's quite reminiscent of the scandal of child abuse disclosures being "dealt with internally" by the Catholic Church.

 

 

It's the systematic coverups that make my blood boil. These child molesters seem to operate in an "old boy's club" mentality that is just sickening, and very often includes people in power to keep things buried. It isn't limited to religious groups, either.