The new, consolidated, Paying for Dates thread

[Ruby Slippers]

Interesting discussion between Joe Rogan and behavioral science professor Gad Saad on the biological root of courtship rituals and resource provision by men.

[Ruby Slippers]

A main point is that across species, females are turned off by signs the male is "cheap", as it's an indicator he's not serious about commitment = huge turnoff for the woman. 100%!

[goth-gal]

I agree with Ruby. I know males like to rationalize it and talk about how in modern times women should split costs of dates. BUT... it’s ingrained in us to want to feel protected, even if we don’t need to in modern times. If you can’t grasp that reality and want women to pay during courtship, fine. We’re here to explain how (most) women like to be treated. The same way we like to understand the male intellect. Some things can’t be explained rationally, it’s just biology and evolution. Our deep wishes and evolution haven’t yet caught up with modern times apparently.

[newyorker11356]

I agree with Ruby. I know males like to rationalize it and talk about how in modern times women should split costs of dates. BUT... it’s ingrained in us to want to feel protected, even if we don’t need to in modern times. If you can’t grasp that reality and want women to pay during courtship, fine. We’re here to explain how (most) women like to be treated. The same way we like to understand the male intellect. Some things can’t be explained rationally, it’s just biology and evolution. Our deep wishes and evolution haven’t yet caught up with modern times apparently.

 

I'm a guy in my late 20's and usually date women in my 20's, and honestly, I haven't really seen this. It's definitely not how most modern women nowadays seem to think, in my experience. It doesn't mean they don't mind being treated out here and there, but they don't think the guy should always be paying 100% for every date if they can contribute themselves as well.

[Ruby Slippers]

In my 20s I paid half for all dating expenses and even refused my boyfriend's offer to pay all the bills when he moved in.

 

Then I wised up.

[sabaton]

A main point is that across species, females are turned off by signs the male is "cheap", as it's an indicator he's not serious about commitment = huge turnoff for the woman. 100%!

 

It depends on the woman's age, her culture, her sex drive, and how attractive he is, and when was the last time she had sex.

 

A 18 year old woman isn't expecting me to take her out to a nice little restaurant and to pay for it. She's content with walking through the mall with me, having a chat. Going to the movies(she pays for her ticket) with me, and then going home using public transportation.

 

Whereas a 28-35 year old woman is not going to be keen on going out on a date with a guy who won't pay for the date. Heck, just not having a car and pretending to not have my own home mortagage-free is enough to make many women my own age and older not want to date me.

 

Which is perfectably understandable. At that age, she's dating to find herself a husband and potential father for her kids.

 

Nah. I don't pay for dates.

 

I take women to the coffee shop that is 2 minutes away from my home, saving me the time to take public transportation. Or I take them to the parks that dot this place all over, or to the bookstores near my house, and we have a chat. On occasion I do go to the movies if there's a movie I really want to see, but again. I pay only for my ticket.

 

The women who want to see me again despite the fact that I didn't spend any money on them? Those are the women who are truly sexually attracted to me, and want to date me because they want to shag me frequently.

 

The ones that don't return my post-date texts are the women who would be hard to get into a relationship with($$$) and the sex would probably be bad, because it's obvious they weren't sexually attracted to me.

 

A main point is that across species, females

Yeah, funny about that. Across species, the dominant male gets an harem of willing females to breed with anytime he wants. Magically, when it comes to the women in the human species, sleeping with other women is suddenly called ''cheating'' and he gotta pay heavily for sleeping with other women Edited January 19, 2019 by sabaton

[thefooloftheyear]

I think a lot of it depends on the stage of life....

 

I mean, sure, a woman in her 20's or 30's no kids and never been married will probably be looking to "nest" and therefore will want a guy to be a donkey or a worker ant......You are building something together that may usually mean kids, and that may mean the guy will be doing the heavy lifting..

 

Once you hit middle age, its not the same...People have lived their lives and have their own stuff/assets, etc...Why at that point would a woman want a guy to keep pulling that load is beyond me...

 

I am a very generous person with "old school" values...My kid was raised on one income(mine) and we lived comfortably...SO I am not the type that slacks and is cheap...Exactly the opposite...

 

I think if I were a woman in her later stages 40's/50's etc, I would be VERY careful how you approach this...If you want the guy to be the heavy all or even most of the time, you are probably going to scare a lot of good guys off...Remember that some of them are probably still paying off wives and kids, even though they are divorced...And if they aren't still paying, they are probably looking for a bit of a break from the constant need to provide...It can be exhausting, really.....

 

"measure twice and cut once"

 

TFY

[some_username1]

I think we are in agreement, newyorker11356. When we were 20s and broke college students living off our parents, we always split (for me that was 20 years ago).

 

But when you're in your 40s & 50s and COURTING a woman (before exclusivity, in let's say first 5-6 dates) it feels very un-feminine to me to have a man expecting me to pay for those dates. After exclusivity, sure, we can each pay for dates... and plan dates. But before exclusivity I want to be courted, be invited by someone who plans and pays for the dates and feel my feminine side. If a guy is a cheapo counting pennies in the first dates in that age range, it's not very attractive, is it?

 

The thing is though being called a cheapo by a woman who doesn't believe in contributing to the initial stages of dating is an insult that carries no weight. It's like being called a bum by a tramp because you didn't give him any change ?

 

As someone who used to believe in chivalry I've been moved to reconsider because it offers very little value to me, as a man.

For all the money I have spent on meals in the last couple of years how many relationships have ensued from that? None. Most recently I paid for 3 meals on the spin for a woman who then ghosted me when I tried to set up a 5th date. In hindsight what was the point in that lost money? If it's heading towards a relationship then I can see the value but 5-6 dates in is far too early to tell to be paying for everything. I can't understand for the life of me why the thinking is not that the woman has to 'earn' access to a man's resources rather like a man often has to 'earn' access to sex through being dependable and consistent. Would the gesture not mean more to a woman if she had to work for it and know that no other woman was benefiting from the man's resources?

 

I mean, given how territorial women are that kind of makes sense- does it not matter to a woman when she is dating a multi-dating man that he is out spending his money on meals for other women while she sits at home watching TV? If he pays for meals for you then he is going to be lavishing other women with free stuff too...or does that not even come into a woman's thinking?

[Shining One]

In my 20s I paid half for all dating expenses and even refused my boyfriend's offer to pay all the bills when he moved in.

I've never paid for a date in my life. Every man I've dated has brushed off my offers to pay as if they were nonsense. I definitely wouldn't see him again.

Which is it?

[littleblackheart]

In modern times, it kind of makes sense to want to take turns in the early days of a relationship, especially when you don't know your dates from Adam (ie when you've met online) - I personally see no reason, in that context, to expect the guy to make the first move AND pay on that first few dates. After all, everyone using OLD is there to date.

 

I'd personally feel like taking advantage of a stranger, and that would make me feel uncomfortable.

 

Taking turns also works when you are perpetually dating, ie when you have no intentions of committing long-term to the person you are dating.

 

In an established relationship, if you're still counting who's paying for what and when, you have an issue.

[edgygirl]

some_username1 - the way it works for me is I'll never go on date #2 if I don't see potential and am not into the man. So, i.e. it won't be 5-6 dates where I'm taking advantage of someone's generosity. I respect other people's feelings... and wallet. So the "investment" and lack of ROI for a man dating me is really low. Besides that I am thin and eat and drink very little so I'm a super cheap date LOL. I also usually book first dates by my place, and make it drinks only. Most guys insist in making it also a dinner date, so it's not like I am expecting food anyway. Is paying for 1-2 drinks too much? I'll pass guys who think like that, it's just a turn off.

 

It never even occurred to me that a man is paying for other dates with other women... not an issue. That's not my problem, it's his. It's not about that, and it's not about the money itself. It's all about feeling courted. How will I feel courted by someone who is not a gentleman and not wanting to take care of me? It's just 101 basics of female attraction.

 

What do you think women need to feel they're being courted?

 

https://www.babble.com/relationships/8-ways-women-want-to-be-courted-by-men/

 

I think men interested in women should research what we need and expect, not what makes sense to them or rationally. Same for us with men. Btw this inspired me to go do some research on what makes a man happy in initial stages of dating and what increases their attraction

Edited January 19, 2019 by edgygirl

[Garcon1986]

What men want to hear is very simple Edgygirl -

 

 

 

 

- say exactly what you mean

- if you come home and are disturbed about something, tell us whether you want a solution or a listening ear, so we don't get dinged for providing a solution when you wanted a listening ear

- know each other's love languages and relationship expectations, and describe what it's like for you to know you are loved. Too many relationships fail on the hill of one party wanted affection, but the other party didn't deliver what was expected.

- lots of men feel loved if they can deliver solutions. Let us fix things in your lives and we will feel truly needed and useful.

- insist on fighting fair and when both parties are in a relatively good mood.

 

 

that's it! Men don't do the dropping hints and gossip business. Easy peasy in comparison haha.

[Shining One]

I think men interested in women should research what we need and expect, not what makes sense to them or rationally. Same for us with men. Btw this inspired me to go do some research on what makes a man happy in initial stages of dating and what increases their attraction

Personally, I'd have no complaints about paying for dates to make the woman happy if it guaranteed the woman would do the things to make me happy.

[Garcon1986]

and another safe assumption:

- men can never read your mind unless you teach them how.

[edgygirl]

Thanks Garcon1986. Because men and women are wired so different, I think we both find it hard to "get" what the other side needs. I keep reading on it, but when the time comes I default to thinking like a woman, and forgetting what a man needs.

 

It's clear many women do that, you read here on LS all the time how we get offended by a man pulling away, and we think they should at least have the decency to explain what's going on... when in fact men need to pull away to gain some emotional bearing sometimes, and explaining it to us is not part of it.

 

All these little differences in what each part needs including feeling courted are quite complicated because our brains are wired differently. It's like a sad joke biology put us through

[edgygirl]

Yeah but then when we try to "teach" and show what we need... we're nagging or being unpleasant and negative...

 

Hence we try to hold what we're thinking... and miscommunication happens and dating situations end.

 

and another safe assumption:

- men can never read your mind unless you teach them how.

[edgygirl]

What things make you happy? I certainly try to do my side to make dates pleasant and men feel valued.

 

Personally, I'd have no complaints about paying for dates to make the woman happy if it guaranteed the woman would do the things to make me happy.

[Shining One]

What things make you happy? I certainly try to do my side to make dates pleasant and men feel valued.

In early dating, sexual gratification ranks very high with me. Otherwise, I appreciate acts of service or gifts. An example: I told a Jamaican woman that I really liked jerk on an early date. She later invited me over when she and her sisters were making some. I learned how to make it and I enjoyed a good meal. Another example: I was talking with a woman about my favorite drinks on a first date. On a later date, she presented me with a bottle of rum she felt I should try based on what I told her.

[Garcon1986]

Well I think most people don't want to be a fixer upper, as the Americans say, but if you are meeting a man who truly doesn't want to know how you feel valued, I would pass him over. You know I would want to learn how you feel valued edygirl

[edgygirl]

Hey Shining One - well sexual gratification because you're paying for dates is... called something else, isn't it? But I agree the other two gestures, cooking for you and getting a small gift after actively listening to you were awesome ways to show interest and trying to make a man happy... something to think about. I get confused cause books like Mars/Venus tells you that men only want to feel they're pleasing you in the beginning, and to not try to hard as it turns them off.

 

Garcon1986 you're right about that But some men are just not that good at the dating game. I am dating one now that doesn't seem great at communication. I am not sure it means it's intentional.

 

if you are meeting a man who truly doesn't want to know how you feel valued, I would pass him over.

[sabaton]

]The thing is though being called a cheapo by a woman who doesn't believe in contributing to the initial stages of dating is an insult that carries no weight. It's like being called a bum by a tramp because you didn't give him any change ��

I've been called cheap a few times but I shrugged it off. Life's too short to let negativity take it's impact on you.

 

The women who call me cheap are women who are not sexually attracted to me. Those who were attracted to me didn't care that I was not the sort of guy to spend money on them.

 

As someone who used to believe in chivalry

These days there are far more women going to college than there are men, and over time even with the wage gap women will end up making more than men do. Especially young women.

 

Paying for dates was natural, 20, 50 years ago, when women didn't have the same opportunities men have. Nowadays it makes no sense. I know a lot more women with money than I know men.

 

For all the money I have spent on meals in the last couple of years how many relationships have ensued from that? None

Online, on a relationship forum, I came across a lady who was saying how she went on more than 250 dates before she found a guy she wanted to date. Now let's be funny about it and say a dude has to go on 250 dates to get a girlfriend, and he pays for all of those dates or for the majority of them.

 

What's a minimum these days for a dinner date at a decent restaurant?

 

40 dollars? 60? And then there's the tip to be paid to the waiter. Making the bill up to 80 dollars? How is the guy going to get there? A car? 20 dollars for gas?

 

$100 total.

 

That's $25000. To get a girlfriend? Are we talking about a 21 year old Victoria's Secret model?

 

Even if it's $50 for each date, and even if it doesn't take that many dates for the guy to find himself a girlfriend he clicks with and is sexually attracted to, that's still far too much money for a guy to pay. I'd rather be called Uncle Scrooge than being a broke gentleman.

 

The thing is, women who live in Los Angeles or New York City are going to be able of pulling off having a lot of guys spending that much money on them for the pleasure of their company,(and for nothing more...) but if you happen to be a man living in Greece, Spain, Italy and such - women's standards for a date are going to be much, much lower, despite the fact that they're physically hot.

 

Most recently I paid for 3 meals on the spin for a woman who then ghosted me when I tried to set up a 5th date.

Well, the way I've seen it happen and had it happen to me is.. when a woman expects to go on a date with you instead of going on a date AFTER she has sex with you: she's not all that into you.

 

I've had that happen to me when I was 18 and visiting a nightclub for the first time. There was a girl I wanted to sleep with but she told me she'd only sleep with me if I'd become her boyfriend, and I would have to take her on dates. Take into account that this was a girl who was popular in our circle of friends for hooking up without expecting anything in return, so yeah. I got the hint.

 

Expect me to pay? Not attracted to me, but willing to maybe sleep with me if I pay enough money.

Edited January 19, 2019 by sabaton

[edgygirl]

If all you're considering is the possibility of getting sex, sabaton, perhaps you should hire a professional. Would make it much easier. And cost much less than 2500.

[sabaton]

What things make you happy? I certainly try to do my side to make dates pleasant and men feel valued.

 

 

Now I might be going on a strech here, but what I think he means is that he would have no problem paying for dates if he was getting some sexual compensation for the money he's spending.

[Shining One]

Hey Shining One - well sexual gratification because you're paying for dates is... called something else, isn't it?

You asked what the woman can do to make me happy in early dating. This is an example.

[sabaton]

If all you're considering is the possibility of getting sex, sabaton, perhaps you should hire a professional. Would make it much easier. And cost much less than 2500.

 

That's a great alternative for when the girlfriend is not feeling in the mood for sex, and you are not in the mood to go to the nightclub, but over time it can get quite pricey. I'm not 50 years old. I'm not looking to get laid once a month or once a few couple months.

 

A woman who is sexual with me soon after meeting me is telling me two things.

 

A) She is attracted enough to me, she doesn't expect me to spend money on her and she's not going to make me wait a week, two weeks, while going on dates and spending money on her, before she decides to have sex with me.

 

It tells me she has a high sex drive, she doesn't have hang-ups about sex, she doesn't care about outdated societal standards of what makes a woman ''easy'' or not, and it means the relationship is going to be highly sexual because she finds me to be hot.

 

Hey Shining One - well sexual gratification because you're paying for dates is... called something else, isn't it?

Although there are several reasons for a man to go on dates, to want a girlfriend or a wife, bottom line is that we all want to get laid.