Reckoning

[minimariah]

(whether he *really* loves me is immaterial. He believes he does.)

 

he believes he loves both of you. do you feel his love for you is real? do you think he, in fact, only loves you?

 

also -- what is stopping you from REALLY breaking it off?

[Savannah2]

I feel the same way about my affair lately. I'm just exhausted from it. It's been almost 4 years. My mm says the same thing about wanting two woman and the polyamory situation. He says he would be most happy living with both of us. He doesn't want to give up either of us. It's a package deal in his eyes. Although the difference is he has never uttered the words I love you to me and he says he loves her. He only says he has love for me but has never said I love you either to my face or in writing. But yet he wants us both. And yes I am his second affair. Although he says the first was only emotional and lasted only a month. So I have my doubts that the me and his wife would ever be enough for him either. He'd het bored with both of us too im sure.

[minimariah]

Grapes, your MM is a serial cheater -- did i get that right from your post?

 

if he is a serial cheater & cheated from he start, then his thoughts of "polyamory" make sense. in translation -- he puts his "love" for W and "love" for you in different closets in his mind. with the "love" for his W being the constant.

Edited July 31, 2015 by minimariah

[Grapesofwrath]

he believes he loves both of you. do you feel his love for you is real? do you think he, in fact, only loves you?

 

also -- what is stopping you from REALLY breaking it off?

 

Mini: There is nothing stopping me from breaking it off. It's broken off, now. The niece moves in this weekend. So that was our last night together. I'm sure he will try to persuade me to accept something inferior to what we've had, and I am prepared to handle that. I feel that the universe is giving me a gift here to exit this situation gracefully. I'm going to accept that gift.

 

I think he loves his wife, the way one loves a family member. I think he appreciates that she is a good mother and all the ways she keeps the family running while he is away. I think they have a companionable relationship, with very little conflict (he hates conflict) and their life is basically harmonious. They share children, a social circle, family, assets, etc. It all goes smoothly and it's a good family. I don't want to see that change.

 

I think he is in love with me, in the romantic way. I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but I do believe that is true. Doesn't change any of the other facts of the situation, but it's still true. I think, and he has told me, that he loves my mind, my spirit, my struggle, and when he is with me he can be his true self. He feels accepted and not judged. I feel the same way. When we are together, he is attentive to my needs, patient, supportive, takes care of me, helps with things around my house, is a generous lover and is thoughtful and caring. The problem I have is that we as often not together as we are together, and during those times I don't hear from him very much, if at all. To me, if he loved me, he would not be able to just go "poof" on the weekends/holidays/vacations without wanting to check in on me and know that I am okay.

[Ifalltopieces]

I'm excited for you!

 

I say excited because when we are wrapped up in the MM we often lose sight of ourselves and what WE want. We spend all of our time catering to them and trying to be "good" enough for them. It's almost like our identities become defined by them; their wants and needs.

 

This is the beginning of something great for you! Your self esteem will blossom in ways you never imagined.

 

I believe he probably does love you both. But he loves himself more.

 

Its not going to be easy but the first step is acknowledging that you want and deserve more. I really do wish you the best.

[Grapesofwrath]

Grapes, your MM is a serial cheater -- did i get that right from your post?

 

if he is a serial cheater & cheated from he start, then his thoughts of "polyamory" make sense. in translation -- he puts his "love" for W and "love" for you in different closets in his mind. with the "love" for his W being the constant.

 

yes, you got that right. he was sleeping with several other women during their courtship, engagement, and early years of marriage. He was still sleeping with other women while she was pregnant. He went away once to Mexico with some buddies. Woke up in the morning, hungover, and in bed with two women. to hear him tell it, these experiences were about sex, not about emotions.

 

His story has always been that he stopped cheating once he had his first child, and didn't cheat again until he met me. He always says that our A is about much much more than sex, and I think his behavior bears that out. We have spent time together when sex wasn't involved. Often. Doesn't change the reality of the situation, though. Given what I know, it would be a very long road before I could trust him. Maybe a never-ending road.

[minimariah]

I think he is in love with me, in the romantic way. (...) To me, if he loved me, he would not be able to just go "poof" on the weekends/holidays/vacations without wanting to check in on me and know that I am okay.

 

okay -- so... in one part, you do believe he is in love with you. & in the other - you don't believe he loves you... am i reading that correct...?

 

let me put it like this - do you think his love is a love worth keeping...? take EVERYTHING into consideration.

[minimariah]

He always says that our A is about much much more than sex, and I think his behavior bears that out.

 

what about the behavior that doesn't...? you addressed it yourself in a previous post.

[Grapesofwrath]

okay -- so... in one part, you do believe he is in love with you. & in the other - you don't believe he loves you... am i reading that correct...?

 

let me put it like this - do you think his love is a love worth keeping...? take EVERYTHING into consideration.

 

If you were to ask him, "MM...are you in love with Grapes?" He would say, "Yes. Very much. I love her very much." I believe that he is in love with me, according to his definition of love.

 

I see his love from another POV, and it doesn't feel like real love to me. Or at least not the kind of love I want for myself. I see the lies, deception, selfishness, lack of self-awareness. I see him say things like "I love two women" as if that is a reasonable explanation for all that he's doing. I see his unwillingness or inability to look deeper at himself and acknowledge difficult truths.

 

In its current form, I don't think this is a love worth keeping. It comes with too many conditions. It can't grow, develop, or be shown to the world. There is too much about him that I don't know and won't know because of our limited way of interacting. I've never seen him with his children. What kind of father is he? I've never seen him with his family of origin. What is he like with them? I've never seen him with his friends. I don't know how he manages his finances. I don't know so many things. I just see a snapshot of him, in my home, focusing on me. It's been a wonderful diversion, but it's not real life.

[Grapesofwrath]

what about the behavior that doesn't...? you addressed it yourself in a previous post.

 

Not sure which post you mean. I don't think he engages in behavior that indicates this A is just about sex.

[minimariah]

Not sure which post you mean. I don't think he engages in behavior that indicates this A is just about sex.

 

no, i'm sorry - i totally misunderstood your post, my mistake.

 

i think i understand you - he is in love with you and you feel (recognize) his behavior as such but at the same time you are aware of just how much more is missing.

 

i think you're on the right path, if you ask me. just stay strong when the tough moments of longing come. good luck, Grapes! cheering for you.

[still_an_Angel]

Mini: There is nothing stopping me from breaking it off. It's broken off, now. The niece moves in this weekend. So that was our last night together. I'm sure he will try to persuade me to accept something inferior to what we've had, and I am prepared to handle that. I feel that the universe is giving me a gift here to exit this situation gracefully. I'm going to accept that gift.

 

I think he loves his wife, the way one loves a family member. I think he appreciates that she is a good mother and all the ways she keeps the family running while he is away. I think they have a companionable relationship, with very little conflict (he hates conflict) and their life is basically harmonious. They share children, a social circle, family, assets, etc. It all goes smoothly and it's a good family. I don't want to see that change.

 

I think he is in love with me, in the romantic way. I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but I do believe that is true. Doesn't change any of the other facts of the situation, but it's still true. I think, and he has told me, that he loves my mind, my spirit, my struggle, and when he is with me he can be his true self. He feels accepted and not judged. I feel the same way. When we are together, he is attentive to my needs, patient, supportive, takes care of me, helps with things around my house, is a generous lover and is thoughtful and caring. The problem I have is that we as often not together as we are together, and during those times I don't hear from him very much, if at all. To me, if he loved me, he would not be able to just go "poof" on the weekends/holidays/vacations without wanting to check in on me and know that I am okay.

 

 

 

If there's a way to like this 10X I would. You've put so many words into paper as to how I feel, thank you.

 

 

On the bolded sentence, I think he feels ok doing this because he has placed you in a compartment that he knows is ok all the time, whether he checks it regularly or not. He is confident that you're ok on your own. Sort of like he doesn't need to micro-manage in a work setting.

 

 

His W and family are the ones in the main compartment, he needs to be there all the time to oversee things, etc. Like you said, he loves his W like a family member, the person who runs the boat while he is off somewhere. Depending on where one stands, it could be very unflattering or not. Makes one think though, would he hang around if he doesn't think he is needed in the main compartment?

[minimariah]

Makes one think though, would he hang around if he doesn't think he is needed in the main compartment?

 

i think most would because, in a way, they need the main compartment just as much. & many times, they aren't really needed as much as they like to think.

 

for most... in their arrogance, they usually think one side (or both W and OW) cannot function without their presence in their lives.

[still_an_Angel]

If you were to ask him, "MM...are you in love with Grapes?" He would say, "Yes. Very much. I love her very much." I believe that he is in love with me, according to his definition of love.

 

I see his love from another POV, and it doesn't feel like real love to me. Or at least not the kind of love I want for myself. I see the lies, deception, selfishness, lack of self-awareness. I see him say things like "I love two women" as if that is a reasonable explanation for all that he's doing. I see his unwillingness or inability to look deeper at himself and acknowledge difficult truths.

 

In its current form, I don't think this is a love worth keeping. It comes with too many conditions. It can't grow, develop, or be shown to the world. There is too much about him that I don't know and won't know because of our limited way of interacting. I've never seen him with his children. What kind of father is he? I've never seen him with his family of origin. What is he like with them? I've never seen him with his friends. I don't know how he manages his finances. I don't know so many things. I just see a snapshot of him, in my home, focusing on me. It's been a wonderful diversion, but it's not real life.

 

 

Another post that resonates with me, thank you Grapes.

 

 

I feel the same way as in your last paragraph. My MM tells me I know him a lot more than most of his close friends, his family and more than his W. That he has bared himself to me. But what I see is the side of the "real" him that he hides from the rest of his life, his true life. How can that be the real him? What I know best is his sexual side, the one that his W hasn't got a clue about. Sure he talks to me a lot about his work, and I get the whole picture of how he really thinks and feels about what is going on. But I am standing far outside his work world too, so I don't really know.

[minimariah]

Given what I know, it would be a very long road before I could trust him. Maybe a never-ending road.

 

just a question -- if you were to end up with this MM in an exclusive relationship... would you feel safe? do you think it would be a relationship that would make you happy -- given everything you know about him and his character? do you trust him now?

 

sorry for all the Qs. just curious, Grapes. i hope you don't mind.

 

To me, if he loved me, he would not be able to just go "poof" on the weekends/holidays/vacations without wanting to check in on me and know that I am okay.

 

when i read this part Grapes, i honestly assumed he keeps no contact when with his family out of fear of getting busted... not because he forgot about you.

 

maybe his W is getting suspicious so he doesn't want to risk when she is around.

[norudder]

Hey grapes

 

Just wondering, do you feel like mm was truly interested and inquisitive about who you are? Hopes dreams history etc? You mentioned only getting a snapshot of him. But sounds like he saw you more 'in your element'?

 

I realized the other day that in all the sharing mm and I did I never felt like he deeply desired to "know" me. He was enjoying the journey and loved that I truly knew him. Because I soaked up everything about him and was the one initiating the deep conversations and questions. But where was his drive to reciprocate curiosity?

 

I have my own place and could show him more of who I am but I held back and haven't had him over. Partly because I don't want to continue the deceit and have been trying to move on but also because I know that if I shared semi normal moments in my own home with him like you have it would make me even more vulnerable and the hurt of him not wanting to be with me instead of falling more in love with me extra painful. Like he gets a preview of life with me but says no thanks. I can't bear the thought of that situation. Do you feel you made yourself more vulnerable in that way to him?

[Grapesofwrath]

 

His W and family are the ones in the main compartment, he needs to be there all the time to oversee things, etc. Like you said, he loves his W like a family member, the person who runs the boat while he is off somewhere. Depending on where one stands, it could be very unflattering or not. Makes one think though, would he hang around if he doesn't think he is needed in the main compartment?

 

Angel, I think that he would. Given the amount of time we spend together, his W manages their home quite well on her own. She takes care of their kids--who are now teenagers--and I'm sure she's very competent at all of it. I think he sees that and appreciates that. Also, her family makes it possible for him to enjoy a lifestyle that he values. He did not grow up around here, but she did and that results in property and other assets that he would not want to give up. Lastly, his role in the extended family is one of the alpha male. He is consulted on important decisions and looked to as the pillar. I think he would miss that.

[Grapesofwrath]

just a question -- if you were to end up with this MM in an exclusive relationship... would you feel safe? do you think it would be a relationship that would make you happy -- given everything you know about him and his character? do you trust him now?

 

sorry for all the Qs. just curious, Grapes. i hope you don't mind.

 

No apologies necessary, Mini. I find it therapeutic, actually, to analyze this situation with someone. Thank you for taking the time to ask.

 

We talked about this exact thing last night. I told him that if somehow it came to pass that he and I were together in the "real world" that I would have a fear that he would meet someone, like he met me, and this whole scenario would unfold again. He told me that he understands it would be hard for me to trust him, but if he committed to me, he would make that committment with his whole heart. Sounds pretty, but didn't he make that kind of commitment to his wife? Why would it be any different with me? (Other than him being older and just generally less likely to chase skirts because of that.)

 

Interestingly, I was talking recently with a man who cheated on his first wife incessantly. He left her for an AP, and he married the AP. They had children together and he said she was "my sun and my moon. I adored her." He was never unfaithful to her, though they are divorced now because of her alcoholism.

 

when i read this part Grapes, i honestly assumed he keeps no contact when with his family out of fear of getting busted... not because he forgot about you.

 

maybe his W is getting suspicious so he doesn't want to risk when she is around.

 

It's possible, Mini. He doesn't keep his phone locked, so anyone could look and see anything. If that is the reason, then his fear of being discovered trumps his desire to keep in touch with the woman he loves. So what are the priorities?

[Grapesofwrath]

Hey grapes

 

Just wondering, do you feel like mm was truly interested and inquisitive about who you are? Hopes dreams history etc? You mentioned only getting a snapshot of him. But sounds like he saw you more 'in your element'?

 

I realized the other day that in all the sharing mm and I did I never felt like he deeply desired to "know" me. He was enjoying the journey and loved that I truly knew him. Because I soaked up everything about him and was the one initiating the deep conversations and questions. But where was his drive to reciprocate curiosity?

 

I have my own place and could show him more of who I am but I held back and haven't had him over. Partly because I don't want to continue the deceit and have been trying to move on but also because I know that if I shared semi normal moments in my own home with him like you have it would make me even more vulnerable and the hurt of him not wanting to be with me instead of falling more in love with me extra painful. Like he gets a preview of life with me but says no thanks. I can't bear the thought of that situation. Do you feel you made yourself more vulnerable in that way to him?

 

Rudder: Yes, he has made a great effort to get to know me and understand me. We shared our stories, upbringing, experiences, etc. He listened tirelessly. My view into his life was limited, though, because I never went to his home, (he has spent the night at my house probably 70 times), never met any of his friends (he has met several of my friends), and never met his children (he has met my children, albeit briefly and they didn't know his role in my life.)

 

Given how you feel, I think you're right not to have the MM to your house. It could set you up to feel rejected. I've not viewed this A as a choice between his wife and me, so his continuation in the M isn't a commentary on me or my lovability. Sharing my home with him made me more vulnerable, though. Because it brought us closer and made our time together seem more intimate.

[minimariah]

Interestingly, I was talking recently with a man who cheated on his first wife incessantly. He left her for an AP, and he married the AP. They had children together and he said she was "my sun and my moon. I adored her." He was never unfaithful to her, though they are divorced now because of her alcoholism.

 

this is sad to read -- i hope she'll get help... maybe they will reunite, who knows? my father had left my mother for his AP & they are blissfully happy many years on... as far as i know, he never cheated on her. the amount of "safe" in their relationship is amazing. you can tell they trust each other a LOT.

 

so i personally do not believe in "once a cheater, always a cheater" -- however... i think it's "risky" to try it out with those cheaters who don't see their cheating as a problem (who can't see that love and cheating don't go together & aren't able to admit some things to themselves). it takes a lot of work for those folks who don't see a casual ONS as a big deal, for example.

 

people think that, just because it's "just sex" - that it won't do any harm. wrong.

 

It's possible, Mini. He doesn't keep his phone locked, so anyone could look and see anything. If that is the reason, then his fear of being discovered trumps his desire to keep in touch with the woman he loves. So what are the priorities?

 

touché.

 

but let me give you another perspective -- if he's busted... his A with you will have to come to an end abruptly. so by not contacting you, he is "protecting" the A of getting discovered out of his desire to keep it going. when you look at it that way... his desire for continuing the A trumps the desire to get in touch with you and risk getting discovered.

 

(i'm not defending him in no way and i absolutely think you're doing a good thing by ending the A & i am aware of the fact that it will be over... i'm just discussing. your input is very valuable, thank you for posting! it's really a pleasure reading your thoughts.)

[whichwayisup]

yes, you got that right. he was sleeping with several other women during their courtship, engagement, and early years of marriage. He was still sleeping with other women while she was pregnant. He went away once to Mexico with some buddies. Woke up in the morning, hungover, and in bed with two women. to hear him tell it, these experiences were about sex, not about emotions.

 

His story has always been that he stopped cheating once he had his first child, and didn't cheat again until he met me. He always says that our A is about much much more than sex, and I think his behavior bears that out. We have spent time together when sex wasn't involved. Often. Doesn't change the reality of the situation, though. Given what I know, it would be a very long road before I could trust him. Maybe a never-ending road.

 

This man is a sex addict and it'll never stop, even if he ends up yours. Why even bother?

 

Don't you think his marriage was more than sex, yet he still cheated and had children with his wife, built a life with her. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're more special than her and he'll never cheat on you. He has a problem and can't control it. It's not his wife's fault, it's not your fault, it's HIS fault. He won't change unless he admits he has a problem and gets professional help.

[Grapesofwrath]

This man is a sex addict and it'll never stop, even if he ends up yours. Why even bother?

 

Don't you think his marriage was more than sex, yet he still cheated and had children with his wife, built a life with her. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're more special than her and he'll never cheat on you. He has a problem and can't control it. It's not his wife's fault, it's not your fault, it's HIS fault. He won't change unless he admits he has a problem and gets professional help.

 

WWIU: I don't agree he is a sex addict. He is flawed, to be sure. He lives in a deep state of denial about these flaws and about who he really is. At times, I think one of the reasons he loves being with me is that I put a mirror up to these flaws and make him look at them in a way that doesn't threaten his self-concept too much.

 

If you read some of my posts above, you will see that I don't believe I am more special than his W or that he would never cheat on me. My point was to the contrary, actually.

[Grapesofwrath]

After a few more conversations with xMM, we have gone on our own vacations and it's NC now for a while. I'm relieved. Being away from home gives so much perspective on this situation.

 

Last night I went to a get-together at the home of a childhood friend. Other old friends were there. One is now divorced and involved with a MM. They were together for 2 years, though she fudges the timeline when she tells the story, and he left his wife a few weeks ago. He gave my friend a diamond ring, asking for commitment. Now they are living together. she's getting what she wanted, but from the outside it all seems so crazy and like a disaster waiting to happen. I guess time will tell.

 

And my friend who hosted the party? His wife of 20 years got fall-down drunk. Huge fight. She lunged at him several times and there was much screaming. He went to a hotel and we all had to abruptly leave. Terrible for everyone and confusing for the kids. None of us had any idea about these issues and it was embarrassing for my friend to have this occur. She had an EA (that was what she admitted to) years ago and it seemed they were past it, but now I wonder if the R just never took hold and all this was brewing. These things are so toxic.

 

in some ways, this left me more confused than ever about love and marriage. And also more clear than ever that I don't want an A with a MM, ever ever again.

[Fortunesfool 79]

If he did leave his wife for you would you ever trust him out of your sight? To go to work in another town a couple of nights a week or will you always be questioning where he is and what he's doing?

[Grapesofwrath]

If he did leave his wife for you would you ever trust him out of your sight? To go to work in another town a couple of nights a week or will you always be questioning where he is and what he's doing?

 

I don't want him to leave his wife for me. And, of course, trust would be a huge issue in any relationship that began as an A.