Reckoning

[Grapesofwrath]

Oh Grapes I'm so sorry. I hope you had a good birthday yesterday.

 

You want intimacy, closeness, affection, warmth. That's really hard when there are "no go" areas, when one or both of you have to censor your thoughts, words, behaviours. Especially if there are other times when you do feel that closeness - then this exclusion feels all the more acute.

 

When you miss him, as you will once his niece arrives, remember these occasions. Remember being locked out in the cold after having been invited inside. Remember having, and then it being withdrawn. Let the memories of good times keep you warm, and the memories of the ****ty times keep you focused.

 

Thanks, Coco. This really helps. You're right. The thing that hurts is having the intimacy, and then having it torn away. Sleeping next to him several nights in a row, making our breakfast, packing our lunches for work, then silence for days because he is back home with his family. And those "no-go" areas?! Boy, howdy. It's like a minefield sometimes. I asked him, early on, to refrain from saying his wife's name while we are in my bedroom. Her name is like a dagger.

 

You guys are right: I'm not cut out for this kind of thing. I'm glad it's ending. It will hurt, but it's really for the best.

[NewLeaf512]

Grapes I'm so sorry. My ExMM used to do the opposite. Not tell me about any of his family plans and then occasionally I'd find out by accident, like an instance I can think of was he rang me at an off time when I thought he would be doing X and it was in his "I'm sneaking a call voice" I heard weird background noise, and said "babe where are you" and ExMM said "I'm on annual leave BS and her family are having a family reunion and we are all staying together at Y beach"

I couldn't believe it. It felt like a knife in my heart. I asked why he didn't tell me and ExMM said "I didn't want to run it in your face". In the days that followed I imagined them on this beach holiday having fun, watching the sunset, playing in the sea. It was awful.

 

When I look back on it now, I shake my head at what I did, what I put up with. I know normal people don't behave this way. I had no right to feel anything, he was doing what he was supposed to, being with his family. I was jealous and anxious and sick to my stomach .

 

I hope you feel better today and I am sending good vibes.

[E-Heart]

Well I totally broke NC a couple of days ago!

 

Although keeping it as friends only! I can't handle being more than that unless he leaves his wife.

 

I found out about some lies....lies so that I don't get upset....but also so that he doesn't have to deal with me while I'm upset and while he's trying to figure out how to leave his wife....UGH! He said he was wrong to lie to me! (of course) I told him I better not find out about other lies and that if he has anything else to tell me, to tell me right away, but he said that that was it! He wonders how I find out about the lies; it's just a gut feeling that the story isn't really working out, and then I ask questions! DUH!

 

So we were NC for 3 days, and that pushed him to make an appointment to go see a counselor. He says he doesn't want to be his wife anymore, but doesn't know how to do it - hence the appointment! He said he felt miserable during the 3 days of NC!

 

All this is nice, but I'm keeping my distance! I still like and want to believe that our story is different than every other typical "MM/OW" story, but it's getting harder and harder to do so!

[E-Heart]

Grapes, I know how you feel!

 

I hate the W's name!

 

I know it's hard to walk away because I can't seem to be able to do it myself! I'm on my way to being "fed up" though....reaching my breaking point! There's a possible two week trip to Europe coming up and that'll do it!

 

Hopefully you reach yours soon! Run away, don't walk!

[Grapesofwrath]

The more I think about this situation, and the more distance I get, the easier it is to let it go. I imagine this is the principle behind no contact. Without fuel, the fire goes out.

 

Recently, we had a night together and I let myself ask questions and say things that had been brewing for a while. In short, I asked him if it was true that he cheated on his wife when she was pregnant. He nodded weakly and acknowledged it was true. No remorse. No guilt. No attempt to explain himself. He did try to tell me that was "just sexual and nothing like what you and I have." That may be true, but it doesn't matter. He slept with someone else (probably more than one person) while his wife was carrying his child. To me, this is beyond the pale. And to offer no explanation or acknowledgement of how lousy that is? And then, a few short years later, to think so much of yourself and your marital abilities that you teach a class on marriage preparation? Did the class include a bit on how to honor your wife by sleeping with a bunch of other women to satisfy sexual desires that she won't accomodate?

 

His history, early in his marriage, happened almost 20 years ago. I've often thought that these were the mistakes of a younger man. A man who was not ready for marriage, but married anyway. Maybe...just maybe...he has managed to stay faithful for the 19 intervening years. But now he cheats again, and adds "love" to the equation.

 

Please tell me there are men in this world that don't do things like this. Honorable men.

[NewLeaf512]

The more I think about this situation, and the more distance I get, the easier it is to let it go. I imagine this is the principle behind no contact. Without fuel, the fire goes out.

 

Recently, we had a night together and I let myself ask questions and say things that had been brewing for a while. In short, I asked him if it was true that he cheated on his wife when she was pregnant. He nodded weakly and acknowledged it was true. No remorse. No guilt. No attempt to explain himself. He did try to tell me that was "just sexual and nothing like what you and I have." That may be true, but it doesn't matter. He slept with someone else (probably more than one person) while his wife was carrying his child. To me, this is beyond the pale. And to offer no explanation or acknowledgement of how lousy that is? And then, a few short years later, to think so much of yourself and your marital abilities that you teach a class on marriage preparation? Did the class include a bit on how to honor your wife by sleeping with a bunch of other women to satisfy sexual desires that she won't accomodate?

 

His history, early in his marriage, happened almost 20 years ago. I've often thought that these were the mistakes of a younger man. A man who was not ready for marriage, but married anyway. Maybe...just maybe...he has managed to stay faithful for the 19 intervening years. But now he cheats again, and adds "love" to the equation.

 

Please tell me there are men in this world that don't do things like this. Honorable men.

 

I wish I could tell you there were but I've got no clue. Moreover I'm too scared to try to find out!

[Cloudcuckoo]

The more I think about this situation, and the more distance I get, the easier it is to let it go. I imagine this is the principle behind no contact. Without fuel, the fire goes out.

 

Recently, we had a night together and I let myself ask questions and say things that had been brewing for a while. In short, I asked him if it was true that he cheated on his wife when she was pregnant. He nodded weakly and acknowledged it was true. No remorse. No guilt. No attempt to explain himself. He did try to tell me that was "just sexual and nothing like what you and I have." That may be true, but it doesn't matter. He slept with someone else (probably more than one person) while his wife was carrying his child. To me, this is beyond the pale. And to offer no explanation or acknowledgement of how lousy that is? And then, a few short years later, to think so much of yourself and your marital abilities that you teach a class on marriage preparation? Did the class include a bit on how to honor your wife by sleeping with a bunch of other women to satisfy sexual desires that she won't accomodate?

 

His history, early in his marriage, happened almost 20 years ago. I've often thought that these were the mistakes of a younger man. A man who was not ready for marriage, but married anyway. Maybe...just maybe...he has mto stay faithful for the 19 intervening years. But now he cheats again, and adds "love" to the equation.

 

Please tell me there are men in this world that don't do things like this. Honorable men.

 

 

Oh darling, there really are mm in this world who don't behave this way ... This man is utterly vile. Reading this made me vomit. There will be someone out there worthy of your full attention I promise you, just trust your instincts this time ... X

[Grapesofwrath]

Oh darling, there really are mm in this world who don't behave this way ... This man is utterly vile. Reading this made me vomit. There will be someone out there worthy of your full attention I promise you, just trust your instincts this time ... X

 

Yes, but are there available men in this world who don't behave this way? Next time, I'm only going for available men.

[HappyAgain2014]

Yes, but are there available men in this world who don't behave this way? Next time, I'm only going for available men.

 

Yes there are. I met my husband after my affair ended. We talked about my affair and our former marriages quite a bit. He had been in a long, unhappy, relatively sexless marriage for many years before divorcing. I asked him if he ever considered cheating. Regardless of the marriage, he told me that cheating wasn't who he was.

 

It's true that cheating has more to do with who a person is versus who they are married to. That realization was significant to me in understanding my xMMs motivations. It also made me realize my now husband was worth investing in.

[GypsumSatellite]

Grapes, one OW to another: That man is not being honest, kind, or trustworthy. He only had the one-off A when his W was pregnant? It wasn't her being pregnant that turned him off, it was him hating her for having someone other than him to focus on. You know, herself and a baby. Honestly, mine did the same thing. Even had a string of not-quite OW in his pre-M while exclusive with this soon-to-be-W. I don't believe for a second he remained faithful during their M, but I can't prove my suspicions.

 

He needs more attention than one woman can give him and it's not about the sexual attention. I take special caution when someone says they cheated on their partner but "it's only sex it didn't mean anything", because they probably see every affair that way, even if they say "I love you".

 

There are available men out there who don't do tasteless behaviors hat cause overthinking and upheaval. It's not that they are perfect, it's just that they aren't manipulative jerks. The differences in being around a man like that is night and day. Be prepared, though, because you might think that a man like that is clingy or unusual or not as charming as the sort you've typically been attracted to while you've been an OW.

 

Your MM? Taught a class on marital preparedness because it made him feel better about himself. It gave off the right image. Giving off the right image allows for the most interesting things to go unnoticed the rest of the time. Hopefully, you can unwind yourself from your R with him as soon as you are ready. He just doesn't sound like the kind of man you are looking for even if he were single.

[Grapesofwrath]

Grapes, one OW to another: That man is not being honest, kind, or trustworthy. He only had the one-off A when his W was pregnant? It wasn't her being pregnant that turned him off, it was him hating her for having someone other than him to focus on. You know, herself and a baby. Honestly, mine did the same thing. Even had a string of not-quite OW in his pre-M while exclusive with this soon-to-be-W. I don't believe for a second he remained faithful during their M, but I can't prove my suspicions.

 

He needs more attention than one woman can give him and it's not about the sexual attention. I take special caution when someone says they cheated on their partner but "it's only sex it didn't mean anything", because they probably see every affair that way, even if they say "I love you".

 

There are available men out there who don't do tasteless behaviors hat cause overthinking and upheaval. It's not that they are perfect, it's just that they aren't manipulative jerks. The differences in being around a man like that is night and day. Be prepared, though, because you might think that a man like that is clingy or unusual or not as charming as the sort you've typically been attracted to while you've been an OW.

 

Your MM? Taught a class on marital preparedness because it made him feel better about himself. It gave off the right image. Giving off the right image allows for the most interesting things to go unnoticed the rest of the time. Hopefully, you can unwind yourself from your R with him as soon as you are ready. He just doesn't sound like the kind of man you are looking for even if he were single.

 

Thanks, Gypsum. You are right, and let me be clear: He had many ONS and other experiences throughout the courtship, engagement, and early years of marriage to his W. (Despite his assertion that it was love at first sight for him and the W.) It was not just that one time. It was many times. I focused on this time because he had told me in the early going that it had been 18 or 19 years since he was last unfaithful. I did the math. Now, of course, I see that there is no reason to believe his story that he stopped sleeping with other women because he had a child.

 

He is all about the image, so you nailed it there. I think he married his wife because of the image she fosters, and because of the "opportunity" that she provided to get ahold of some property and assets in this area. He doesn't value her or honor her in any way that I can see.

 

I'm just tired of the whole thing. Typing these things and sending them out to the universe forces me to recognize that they are real and see him for what he is.

 

Yesterday, of course, he had no time for me. This morning, now that the family is out of the way, there are texts, emails, phone calls. Because it's convenient for him. All of them are going unanswered. I've had it with this crap.

[Tresmilmilhas]

My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and was a counselor on marriage and relationships at his job. He would talk about the advice he gave so passionately, that I thought he had gone crazy. I wanted to shake him and say: I'm about to give birth to your son and we are separated because you are sleeping with someone else, and you are giving MARRIAGE advice?

[Dela]

My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and was a counselor on marriage and relationships at his job. He would talk about the advice he gave so passionately, that I thought he had gone crazy. I wanted to shake him and say: I'm about to give birth to your son and we are separated because you are sleeping with someone else, and you are giving MARRIAGE advice?

 

 

that made me smile. and also think that my ExMM has a job where he is making decisions all day but when it comes to his personal life NO WAY.

msybe he s running out of decisions by the time he leaves the office

[Grapesofwrath]

When I saw him today, he told me about his upcoming weekend and the things he has planned with his family. I intentionally do not ask him about his family plans because it bothers me to hear it. He knows this, but I think he couldn't resist telling me this because he thought I would be excited for him. Wrong.

 

It all came flooding back. The lousy feeling of being routinely abandoned and put on a shelf. Of listening to his oblivious blathering about the party they went to, the people they saw, the things he did. I am trying to find the word for the feeling I have. It's not embarassment, and it's not shame. Belittlement? Dismissal? Insulted? It makes my face turn hot. I hate this feeling.

 

Humiliation. That's the feeling. Humiliation. I felt humiliated.

[Hope Shimmers]

Humiliation. That's the feeling. Humiliation. I felt humiliated.

 

I understand.

 

But I think you are in the same spot that I am finding myself in. It's easier to want to take a little bit (less than we deserve) from someone who is already there and offering it, than doing to work to find - and trusting - that there is someone out there who will make us first priority.

 

Reading in the infidelity forum about how many affairs happen in marriages, it's even more depressing to think about having to put that kind of trust in someone, knowing how (statistically) it is likely to end up. It's somehow easier in a way to keep it at arm's length, where you have some control over it - dealing with a BS is a known entity which is less risky than putting it all on the line for someone who might betray you in the worst way after you have put all your trust in him. Holding back some of that trust protects us in a way. But it also sucks because you only get a fraction of a relationship.

 

It is really tough to go into the unknown, and trust and believe in someone new.

[Grapesofwrath]

I understand.

 

But I think you are in the same spot that I am finding myself in. It's easier to want to take a little bit (less than we deserve) from someone who is already there and offering it, than doing to work to find - and trusting - that there is someone out there who will make us first priority.

 

Reading in the infidelity forum about how many affairs happen in marriages, it's even more depressing to think about having to put that kind of trust in someone, knowing how (statistically) it is likely to end up. It's somehow easier in a way to keep it at arm's length, where you have some control over it - dealing with a BS is a known entity which is less risky than putting it all on the line for someone who might betray you in the worst way after you have put all your trust in him. Holding back some of that trust protects us in a way. But it also sucks because you only get a fraction of a relationship.

 

It is really tough to go into the unknown, and trust and believe in someone new.

 

Hope: I agree. You and I are struggling with this same issue. I see so much infidelity in my immediate social circle, it causes me to doubt whether it makes any sense to trust someone and open myself up to them.

 

If any of you were to meet the MM in real life, you would think he is a lovely guy. Loyal family man, easy going, friendly, hard working, fun to be around. He has a lot of friends and goes to church, etc. The image is one of a wholesome, loving, devoted family man. Only after you ask the right questions do you find out the truth. It's a lesson in disillusionment, and makes one wonder how many of the "good men" that we know in real life lead these second, secret lives.

[NewLeaf512]

Hope: I agree. You and I are struggling with this same issue. I see so much infidelity in my immediate social circle, it causes me to doubt whether it makes any sense to trust someone and open myself up to them.

 

If any of you were to meet the MM in real life, you would think he is a lovely guy. Loyal family man, easy going, friendly, hard working, fun to be around. He has a lot of friends and goes to church, etc. The image is one of a wholesome, loving, devoted family man. Only after you ask the right questions do you find out the truth. It's a lesson in disillusionment, and makes one wonder how many of the "good men" that we know in real life lead these second, secret lives.

 

oh me too.. ExMM church elder, super dad, career, habitat for humanity, only ate 1 bowl of food during lent losing 15kg a year, taking in laws to doctors appointments and on and on all the while glued to BS and he'd dash to the loo and text me .. IF he was allowed to have his phone. False to the core

[jen1447]

If any of you were to meet the MM in real life, you would think he is a lovely guy. Loyal family man, easy going, friendly, hard working, fun to be around. He has a lot of friends and goes to church, etc. The image is one of a wholesome, loving, devoted family man. Only after you ask the right questions do you find out the truth. It's a lesson in disillusionment, and makes one wonder how many of the "good men" that we know in real life lead these second, secret lives.

 

The 'paragon of virtue' narrative is actually a really common subtext to these ppl. Almost makes me wonder if there's sth about church, activism, charity, etc. that drives them to an outlet like infidelity.

[Hope Shimmers]

Hope: I agree. You and I are struggling with this same issue. I see so much infidelity in my immediate social circle, it causes me to doubt whether it makes any sense to trust someone and open myself up to them.

 

If any of you were to meet the MM in real life, you would think he is a lovely guy. Loyal family man, easy going, friendly, hard working, fun to be around. He has a lot of friends and goes to church, etc. The image is one of a wholesome, loving, devoted family man. Only after you ask the right questions do you find out the truth. It's a lesson in disillusionment, and makes one wonder how many of the "good men" that we know in real life lead these second, secret lives.

 

Ex-MM was an elder in his (strict conservative) church too. Really makes you want to embrace religion, right?

 

Everyone would think mine was a lovely guy too. Intelligent, articulate, well-spoken, polite to a fault, respectful, funny, good-looking, quiet. That's what is so ironic.

 

Are you fully back into the A? What do you think would have happened if the situation with your neighbor would have worked out differently? Reason I ask - if you would have not ended up back in the A because things worked out with this neighbor guy, maybe it's time to think about why you are back in it (not trying to be mean; just honest).

 

I met a man at a 4th of July party who I've been out with 2 times. Problem is, invariably (if it works out) he will want more from me, and I don't think I have it in me to open myself up again.

[Hope Shimmers]

oh me too.. ExMM church elder, super dad, career, habitat for humanity, only ate 1 bowl of food during lent losing 15kg a year, taking in laws to doctors appointments and on and on all the while glued to BS and he'd dash to the loo and text me .. IF he was allowed to have his phone. False to the core

 

There's only one word for that... and the word is 'hypocrite'

[Grapesofwrath]

Are you fully back into the A? What do you think would have happened if the situation with your neighbor would have worked out differently? Reason I ask - if you would have not ended up back in the A because things worked out with this neighbor guy, maybe it's time to think about why you are back in it (not trying to be mean; just honest).

 

I met a man at a 4th of July party who I've been out with 2 times. Problem is, invariably (if it works out) he will want more from me, and I don't think I have it in me to open myself up again.

 

Hope: I'm not fully back in the A, and actually today and tomorrow are our final days. His niece moves in this weekend, and that's the end. At least it is for me. I expect he will challenge that boundary, and I will be on this board seeking support in going NC with him, or LC considering some of our work interactions, which are thankfully few and far between.

 

If things had panned out with my neighbor, I would have stopped the A. I was ready to pull the plug on it several times, but it's like you said: I do get something, albeit limited, and it helps take the edge off my loneliness. It's less than I deserve. I know that. Not to mention all the other issues that come with it. I tried with the neighbor. Invited him to do things with me, which he declined if the kids weren't involved. So I just don't see that going anywhere and I understand.

 

Hmmm. so fireworks on the 4th of July! I like it! I'd say just take it one date at a time and see what develops. Try not to overthink it.

[Grapesofwrath]

Not sure precisely why, or how, but something in me shifted toward the MM and I feel "done." The last couple days we have been going over our A and preparing to no longer see each other. At first that was really sad, tears were shed, but now I'm feeling more relief than anything else. This A is in the way of my future happiness and the rest of my life.

 

The last couple nights I have been ruthlessly direct with MM, asking why he is in this A, trying to get some answers and closure. Last night he said, again, "I love two women. I think it's possible to love two people, and I do." We talked about poly-amory and how some people are better suited to non-monogamous relationships. He agreed that he thinks he is a polyamorous person, but he also isn't willing to be forthright about that.

 

It finally just came down to this: He may think he loves her--and perception is reality--but in my world, what he is doing is not "loving" her. If he loves her, he would not lie to her, betray her, sneak around behind her back. Not just now, but also in the past, when they were newlyweds and she was carrying his child. He would not disrespect her by sleeping with other women, nor would he rob her of intimacy by falling in love with another woman. (whether he *really* loves me is immaterial. He believes he does.)

 

When we woke up this morning, he checked his phone. There were 18 text messages from her. 18. Obviously, she wanted to reach him and he was AWOL, spending the night with me. I can only imagine the lies and evasion involved in explaining why he didn't respond to any texts from her. And this has happened many times.

 

I am tired of thinking about him, his marriage, why MM cheat, all of it. I just want it out of my life. I want to come back to the land of the living.

[jen1447]

Point about polyamory from a practitioner - a lot of ppl use that excuse or sth similar when they really aren't genuinely polyamorous. Chances are he just likes having his wife and a woman on the side.

[Josmatjes]

Good for you! It's such a hard pill to swallow for sure.

 

It's funny that when you are truly involved with them you really don't see clearly how hurtful and dis functional it all is. But then when you step away it's shocking that you've done this for so long. I made excuse after excuse for my xmm but the bottom line is that he is damaged and no one can fix him.

 

I'm glad you saw this situation clearly!

[minimariah]

Point about polyamory from a practitioner - a lot of ppl use that excuse or sth similar when they really aren't genuinely polyamorous. Chances are he just likes having his wife and a woman on the side.

 

^^ this.

 

& chances are -- he doesn't love the W OR the OP... just himself.

Edited July 31, 2015 by minimariah