Telling the children

[fivejcb]

 

 

 

But now it's his problem actually! WH does yet doesn't like these changes at all. Too bad really.

 

 

Lion Heart.

 

Lion Heart

 

Should be...Too bad. You sound so upbeat and I'm glad your treating your

 

self like he never did. I hope if my DDay comes I can be as strong and

 

resolved as you.

Edited March 26, 2015 by fivejcb

[Lion Heart]

Lion Heart

 

Should be...Too bad. You sound so upbeat and I'm glad your treating your

 

self like he never did. I hope if my DDay comes I can be as strong and

 

resolved as you.

 

Thanks five. Peaks and valleys getting flatter.

 

I was remiss about the "why were me and the kids at the bottle shop?" Sorry merrmeade.

 

Yeah. It was Christmas Eve. I decided to attend a huge Greek Christmas Party at DDs and SIL home. I was triggering crazily but didn't have a word for it till LS. Neither did I understand it till LS.

SIL mum invited me and the kids. Not WH.

I realised I should've bought DD MIL a Christmas present. Not much time. Drove to fancy liquor store to get a voucher for her (I love this woman). The spot we parked in was directly in front of doors. Still light out but I do always drive with the car's lights on.

We parked. To our shock out walks WH with a trolley load of grog (possibly for Christmas Day - maybe only for him, can't honestly remember).

DD hid under the dashboard! Shortly b4 we left home, I'd spoken with WH and he said he was still at work. Twin 2 said "I wonder if dad will see us". I said he'd have to.

He didn't. We waited and watched. No recognition. I thought "that's telling".

Twin 1 said phone him & ask him where he is. WH waited a while b4 answering our call. He stopped his convo with a bloke we knew.

Answered. When I asked where he was, he answered honestly.

 

Just weird. In the traffic that night it would've been miraculous for WH to be "at work" shortly b4 we saw him there.

 

I'm not concerned he was with the same OW he had. Or ever will be. It's his sentinel like behaviour that has reinforced (or possibly they're triggers) to me that he hasn't stopped looking for the next OW.

 

"Fool me twice. ..."

 

Since D Day, I've definitely been at the point of if he wants to do that then BE MY GUEST but pi** off first. Have as many OWs as you can AFTER you leave, just don't tangle our whole world up in your cr**py cheap affairs.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

I'll be back tomorrow (I'm down under remember)

but before I sign off tonight, I want to express my thanks to all of you for taking the time to share your thoughts and opinions. My H has a funny saying about opinions. I'll share later.

 

I feel supported regardless of opposing views to mine. I'm heartened by the supporting views so much. Hugs. I have felt a little challenged by the criticizing views shared but they have most definitely helped me gain even more clarity, crystallised my values and, yes, made me laugh too, so thank you.

 

It's so important to learn from our pasts. Since I was a little girl I've held the belief that if I could learn from other's mistakes in life, then I don't need to tread that path to learn. I can see where they ended up and can pinpoint where they made "a left hand turn" to end up in that sh**ty place. We call those points of no return a left turn in our family.

 

I don't always make right hand turns. The moment I realise my mistakes, I apologize sincerely and try to make amends. This answers my WH criticism of why when I make a mistake do we get past it so fast. Well a) leaving the hose out is a mistake, I meant to reel it back in but I didn't for whatever reason. I'm sorry. I'll try to remember that that's important to you and reel it in after using it. THEN I REEL IT IN.

b) an A isn't a "mistake". It was deliberate. "Sorry" the word doesn't cut it when it's only "sorry for being busted". You not being sorry means there's more to answer for. More for you to realise. Remorse shows me you're sorry. A SO-REE in spite just doesn't cut it. Words are not enough in this case, it's ensuing actions that make the biggest impact.

Plus you can't un-f*** the OW. So eloquently described on another thread.

 

Though I can see WH getting something, somewhere in his head. At this time there are some things to note. WH is dealing with diagnoses he never dreamed of about himself in his (and mine) worst nightmares. He knows FOR SURE that it will be 2-5y and maybe forever that he needs IC. He said even if we D, he needs IC. When his family abhor counselling and go straight for the drugs? He's going against his family. Still he wants counselling.

 

He is showing Courage to face me and the chn every day and night, when I KNOW on many levels it would be far easier for him to leave. He looks at us and KNOWS we love him. Just him. Not his actions during his A, not the disrespect he's shown at times before or since. Just him. He really has no encouragement to stay from his extended family and friends. But he stays. WH faces many people who know about his A. OW told the school remember. He gets no sympathy from this world yet he's facing it every day bravely and I admire his attempt at R. I wanted to put that forward to be fair. He reads my posts whenever he wants but as I've mentioned earlier. I would never disrespect WH to say things to others UNLESS I've already had the conversation with him beforehand. Even online.

 

Anyhow thank you. Have a wonderful day and I'll sleep tight. BTW Tick ridden twin 2 (the spokesperson and conceiver of "the list") is sleeping with daddy tonight. I'll be with DD.

 

Lion Heart.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Lion Heart

[merrmeade]

Thanks five. Peaks and valleys getting flatter.

 

I was remiss about the "why were me and the kids at the bottle shop?" Sorry merrmeade.

 

Yeah. It was Christmas Eve. I decided to attend a huge Greek Christmas Party at DDs and SIL home. I was triggering crazily but didn't have a word for it till LS. Neither did I understand it till LS.

SIL mum invited me and the kids. Not WH.

I realised I should've bought DD MIL a Christmas present. Not much time. Drove to fancy liquor store to get a voucher for her (I love this woman). The spot we parked in was directly in front of doors. Still light out but I do always drive with the car's lights on.

We parked. To our shock out walks WH with a trolley load of grog (possibly for Christmas Day - maybe only for him, can't honestly remember).

DD hid under the dashboard! Shortly b4 we left home, I'd spoken with WH and he said he was still at work. Twin 2 said "I wonder if dad will see us". I said he'd have to.

He didn't. We waited and watched. No recognition. I thought "that's telling".

Twin 1 said phone him & ask him where he is. WH waited a while b4 answering our call. He stopped his convo with a bloke we knew.

Answered. When I asked where he was, he answered honestly.

 

Just weird. In the traffic that night it would've been miraculous for WH to be "at work" shortly b4 we saw him there.

 

I'm not concerned he was with the same OW he had. Or ever will be. It's his sentinel like behaviour that has reinforced (or possibly they're triggers) to me that he hasn't stopped looking for the next OW.

 

"Fool me twice. ..."

 

Since D Day, I've definitely been at the point of if he wants to do that then BE MY GUEST but pi** off first. Have as many OWs as you can AFTER you leave, just don't tangle our whole world up in your cr**py cheap affairs.

 

Lion Heart.

I've done this. There are certain scenes and exchanges that highlight the absurdity, hypocrisy or utter destructiveness of all of it, representing the surreal essence of some aspect of this whole LifeF-ck. Kind of like BetrayedH's infamous backyard couch barbecue. The picture you painted of the 'sentinel-like' head bobbing and scanning the horizon in the parking lot was as grotesque and surreal as any. Add the horrified family watching from the parked car in the shadows as a kind of Greek chorus, you get a bit of absurdist theater immortalized on LS. I have a few lifetime images of my own. The latest for me is gazing at the bottle of perfume WH gave SIL/OW, sparkling in the sun's rays in the bathroom as I peed during our family's reunion/memorial to bury the ashes of the other BS, my brother. Edited March 26, 2015 by merrmeade

[mrs rubble]

Thankyou mrs rubble. Gosh not my idea or concept whatsoever to write this list. A NEED to communicate with their father b4 it was too late and I packed us up and left. It was overnight my last marriage. The chn knew this much! The kids knew my exit plan as did WH. It was being brought more into existence every single day.

 

Sincerely mrs rubble, you're a very strong woman to leave a domestic violence situation. I'm so sorry you endured that yourself. I'm so sorry your children were part of that equation too. So sad. Sometimes situations like yours and mine are anomalies of life. No one really ever "wins". These things are so non-sensical.

Why? Is a biggy.

 

Sometimes, as sad and hard as it is to ever accept, people just can't seek and receive the help they need. It just doesn't happen. We have no sane choice but to leave.

 

Damage happens to us, our children and the WS.

What do we do? There are individual answers to that question. It depends on SO MUCH serendipity. I can't stand the sayings of "the things you experienced as a child, Lion Heart, were character building" when referring to the beatings, violence, insanity, poverty etc etc.

What blatant rot. No. Otherwise we should ALL expose our chn to these abhorrent things to "build our chns character"! No. No more excuses. No more convenient denial which excuses anybody from taking responsibility for their own actions. It's absurd. It's a sickness of our society to excuse such behaviours.

 

I commend you for leaving a DV marriage. I can't imagine how you suffered. I'm sorry for your suffering. I hope you can heal and be strong in the world.

 

Many blessings

Lion Heart.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I've certainly learnt and grown a lot from my experiences. As have my children.

You are a very strong woman too & I really admire the way you've handled the challenges you've been faced with in this awful, heartbreaking situation & here with our opinions on it!!

I sincerely hope things get easier for you all.

Stay strong!

[Lion Heart]

I've done this. There are certain scenes and exchanges that highlight the absurdity, hypocrisy or utter destructiveness of all of it, representing the surreal essence of some aspect of this whole LifeF-ck. Kind of like BetrayedH's infamous backyard couch barbecue. The picture you painted of the 'sentinel-like' head bobbing and scanning the horizon in the parking lot was as grotesque and surreal as any. Add the horrified family watching from the parked car in the shadows as a kind of Greek chorus, you get a bit of absurdist theater immortalized on LS. I have a few lifetime images of my own. The latest for me is gazing at the bottle of perfume WH gave SIL/OW, sparkling in the sun's rays in the bathroom as I peed during our family's reunion/memorial to bury the ashes of the other BS, my brother.

 

OMG THAT PERFUME!!!!

 

Every time I look at my new perfume I wear now on my dresser, I imagine your feelings that day. I want to pick up my OWN bottle and smash it. Instead I wear it :-) (BTW add NEW PERFUME to the list of things I've done for MY SELF).

 

How you restrained youself from not taking it to the nearest OP SHOP, telling SIL what you were doing as you left and didn't come back is beyond me. Or done any other combination of things suggested on your thread. Symbolism.

 

I must read BH thread about that.

 

BTW my son-in-law is Greek / Egyptian. My eldest DD is aboriginal plus my heritage. My present WH is Dutch / Irish. My heritage is Polynesian (Mutiny on the Bounty decendants), Tahitian, English / Irish. My chn are like Neopolitan ice cream. All sweet colours.

 

Nothing bothers me about our heritages. What's a massive issue is shaking the religious inheritances. My family were initiators of SO many and varied derivatives of faiths. WH parents are "practising" but WH vehemently opposing his parents faith. These issues have impaired our recovery from this A. It's not about G**. HE showed me the truth. He gives us free will. My relationship with Him is fine.

 

Yes. I totally agree. It's the mind-f***edness of WH that I can't STAND bearing witness to SINCE D Day. I didn't nearly notice it before. It's RED FLAGS screaming at me to notice since. I notice alright. I communicate these to WH and end every "talk" with "No more hiding WH, I've well and truly got your number. No more bs. You either side with the Allies of this family (truth, commitment, fidelity) or do us all a favour. Leave." I'm not comfortable with R. I've been willing to try... to a point. I can feel the change this week in WH. Maintaining that change will be WH life's challenge I believe.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

I don't think its OK to give kids sexual details or to involve them in heated arguments or drama.

 

However, kids live in the household. They have a right to express their feelings about what goes on in that household. They have a right to express their disappointment to their father, not simply for disrespecting his marriage and their mother, but for disrespecting their family. Affairs are not just about the spouses relationship, regardless of what people involved in them want to believe. The family is a unit, and issues like affairs and addictions affect the entire family.

 

My parents had a lot of arguments and drama when I was very young, and my mom seemed to always be mad at my dad. I would hear my mom yell and he'd just sit there and take it. In my young mind, my mom was being mean to my dad and I saw him as the victim. I resented my mom and it did affect the way I felt about her. I drew my own conclusions because I didn't have all the information.

 

Eventually, I found my dad's Narcotics Anonymous journal and read it. He was lying to my mom, spending all the money on drugs and stealing. He had a coke problem and was an alcoholic, as well. Reading it made so much about my family and it's dynamic make sense. His behavior wasn't my fault. It wasn't my mom's fault. He had issues. It was freeing... Dad wasn't screaming at me because he hates me, he was on coke!

 

My mom had tried to protect us from the truth. She didn't want to embarrass him or us to lose respect for him. But the truth is, we knew something was wrong, and by sheltering us from the truth, we drew the wrong conclusions. We still experienced all the drama and tension, but had to guess at the reasons. We felt confused and helpless.

 

I think having the truth about their lives can help kids affected by affairs accept the truth and deal with it. This gives them an opportunity to cope with it in a healthy way, instead of doing what many kids do- escaping & detaching from their feelings. Young kids escape & detach with excessive video games, TV, internet and older kids will escape and detach with drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, porn, criminal friends, etc. Giving them the truth about their life allows them to accept & cope. And that's a good thing!

 

Imagine how many more emotionally healthy adults we'd have right now if their parents were honest about problems and provided them with the tools to cope, instead of being told "these are grown up problems". Kids end up being left in the dark to deal with stress that they have no idea how to cope with. These are the people that turn into grown ups who escape, avoid, lie and deal with their problems in unhealthy ways.

 

Most kids are not just mindless beings where you can just tell them "No worries, it's going to be OK" and they blindly accept it. They have their own minds, and most are pretty smart. This is their family and their household, why shouldn't have input? Why can't they list their grievances? Why can't they know the truth about their life, their history, their experiences? Knowledge is power.

 

I don't think lies protect kids- lies protect cheaters and addicts. Cheaters want to control what everyone knows, so that they can manipulate the way others perceive them.

 

Quietstorm, what a very powerful post. Ground level. Thankyou.

I can totally get where you're coming from as an adult reflecting on childhood trauma. I hope you felt a healthy, emotional distance when recalling this turbulent time. I prefer to remember (when I'm drawn to that time) as if I'm watching a movie shot from a ceiling corner. Not as I was standing small, powerless and vulnerable.

 

Without the truth, chn DO draw their own conclusions. Chn are not brainless twits. They're "little adults" forming their views of the world, if they DON'T have a trusted person to reflect WITH,

then they're left with NO CHOICE but to form their own conclusions all by themselves - and the psychologically dangerous part is that THEY DO.

 

This is the danger of leaving them out of ANY conversation.

Plus I completely agree that the parent doing the major harm should be accountable to everyone!

 

Parent's prerogative.

 

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

BTW my son-in-law is Greek / Egyptian. My eldest DD is aboriginal plus my heritage. My present WH is Dutch / Irish. My heritage is Polynesian (Mutiny on the Bounty decendants), Tahitian, English / Irish. My chn are like Neopolitan ice cream. All sweet colours.

 

Nothing bothers me about our heritages. What's a massive issue is shaking the religious inheritances. My family were initiators of SO many and varied derivatives of faiths. WH parents are "practising" but WH vehemently opposing his parents faith. These issues have impaired our recovery from this A. It's not about G**. HE showed me the truth. He gives us free will. My relationship with Him is fine.

That's why you're the one doing your WH such a favor, continuing to consider letting him have access to you and your children. If he has any sensitivity or shred of life experience, he has surely realized that any other life with anyone else will let his narcissism run rampant and make him an unfeeling monster again. Surely he's figured out that the only way he has of making it in this life as an honest-to-goodness huMan is through the goodness and humanity of his family.

[sandylee1]

I'm so glad you're doing all those things for yourself. The new underwear is for YOU. Maybe he's trying to say, lingerie wasn't the cause of the affair.

 

Keep doing things for yourself. Your kindness has bee taken advantage of for long.

[Lion Heart]

I'm so glad you're doing all those things for yourself. The new underwear is for YOU. Maybe he's trying to say, lingerie wasn't the cause of the affair.

 

Keep doing things for yourself. Your kindness has bee taken advantage of for long.

 

Thanks Sandylee, when I met WH 15y ago I had about 20 satin nighties bought for me by my previous LTR. I got used to wearing them all year round (didn't live with LTR). A simple thing that made me feel sexy, more of a desirable woman. I simply liked them!

 

It's all part of the "control" thing that Narcissists play out on every level. I liked them meant for WH I shouldn't have them! Mind-f**king - King being the prominent word there.

 

Girl (and boys) I learnt SO SO MUCH yesterday from the 2 sessions I had with 2 different counsellors. My head is exploding this morning at 4am.

 

The sad thing is what I suspected but not necessarily for the reasons I thought. I can't express this I'm so sad. So shocked. So bewildered .... again. There's no good ending to this whether I stay or leave. He's gonna do what so many of my past relationship partners AND 2 PAST Hs have done. He'll only see how great "this" is AFTER he goes, leaves, shops around then has his own light bulb moment. ...maybe. Then he'll want to come back LIKE THEY ALL HAVE. But I'd shut that door forever. Sometimes it broke my heart again! GIGS I guess.

 

I'm too confused to write this coherently. Will try later.

 

Sandylee. WH was trying to say for years after my last nice nightie rotted off my shoulders that he'd have sex with me no matter what I was or wasn't wearing. I see now that it was all about control and witholding what I liked. What I wanted. Control. Meanness. Kibbles.

 

HE knew I wanted him. It doesn't take much to put me in the mood. He witheld that. In the 4w after he ended it with OW (b4 my D Day ) FROM THE VERY SECOND he walked in the door after leaving her house. He was skittish around the house, like a dingo in danger.

Raced inside, grabbed my card and drove in the wrong direction to buy us concert tickets, booked a motel etc. I thought he didn't want ME anymore because he actually hadn't for 2m.

Now he was making plans to BE with me? Total 180.

When he noticed it was SO EASY to make me happy and fall in love with him again. We seemed SO in love for that month! No I didn't need all that. Just "the look" from him.

I'd planned to go to the concert with friends but he wanted to come? Great! Ok. Wow that's nice.

 

In the previous 6m or so b4 his A, I'd said: "you know I love you, don't you?"

"I never want to know another man for the rest of my life" he never said it back.

"I only want you" nup no return.

About 10x. Not every time we had sex but then too at times.

 

After D Day he said he doesn't remember me saying any of it. Now he agrees. He remembers.

 

The WHOLE "happy" month was motivated by guilt, fear, shock at how easy our relationship was. WH even said to me yesterday that he knew the A would be a deal breaker so after he ended it, he put in 100% to make us so happy so that if I found out then he'd stand a chance at working it out so I wouldn't kick him out. MF!!!! Manipulative creep. So cruel. So Fg heartless and narcissistic in the extreme.

D Day came when me and the kids were so high from this much happier husband and dad!

The loving man he could be but withheld from us up and down.

 

Youngest DD and I are getting our nails done this morning. She only gets them painted. She had her first major panic attack 3d ago. He only unpacked his bags from since D Day at 12w, even though I'd told him repeatedly that it was upsetting the chn. After the loving release convo after another horrible 48h. He unpacked them.

No.

 

I'm not making sense. I'll read not post.

 

Love youse all. (Stupid saying we say with a broad Ozzie accent).

 

Lion Heart.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Lion Heart

[Lion Heart]

I'm going off into the Self Improvement & Divorce & Coping with Loss & Grief sections. See you there.

 

LH