Telling the children

[Lion Heart]

I Agree, but imagine the father sitting down with the kids and compiling a list of her traits that led him to stray in order for them to understand the picture completely. I doubt anyone would see that as appropriate.

Kids see more than they let on and really don't need to write lists about money and booze.

 

Oh gosh I must be healing, I actually laughed when I read this mrs rubble. You remind me of my MIL blaming me, OH and the OW for HER SONS AFFAIR, yet HE was the ONLY person being unfaithful. This misguided attitude of hers was VERY short lived as she found out the truth and went NC on HER SON. The very first time they'd ever NCd one of their own children in near on 50y of parenting. Their 2 DD have also cheated on spouses and LTR partners. Heredity don't you think? FAMILY conditioning? Enabling behaviours as you espouse also.

 

You can ask my WH why? In fact I just read your post to him and he said "I entirely disagree with that woman. It was all on me." BTW WH knows my user name here and reads my posts. I've asked WH on many occasions WHY. This in combination with MC and IC has lead to THESE conclusions:

* Yes! WH knew I'd offered lunch time rumbles in the sack on my 2d off per week. He owns his own business, he came home THREE x in 4months. 2x to do it, with no warning to me but ofcourse I obliged and 1x in a total panic after he'd "almost" done it with OW, he left quickly to buy tickets to see a band for us and a motel stay over. Basically we had sex whenever he approached me / whenever he said "wake me up when you put the kids to sleep".

* WH was envious of ME! Because: (yes dammit there's a list of things he's envious of!?*!× wtf? His wife?)

1.I have a stable well paying job and he's made a mess of his own employment for near 30y. I've SUPPORTED his 5 changes of career in 15y, wholeheartedly. To make HIM happy. It didn't.

In fact I was AT THE accountants WHILE he had the sexual part of his A for WH BUSINESS! He had 150% of my support.

2. I know how to manage money. This annoys him. I've tried endlessly to teach him but he gets himself further into debt. I gave up trying, let him do the business any way he chose years ago and gained FT employment to pay for everything. INCLUDING another $6k credit card he busted DURING his A.

3. I make sensible decisions. His words. This annoys him that I do and he doesn't.

4. I get HIT ON all the time. He has only been "approached" once sort of. He ran with it. He hated taking me out anywhere for this reason. I ALWAYS tried to hide the fact it happened and deflected EVERY approach. I've got unlisted numbers and alias names on all online things for this very reason. He's insanely jealous not of other men. But of the attention I get and hey I'm no model but I guess other things are attractive too.

* WH wanted "flesh". "Different flesh" is how the MC corrected him. Hey! His choice. He was SO welcome to go to OW THE NIGHT of my D Day. I told her first, she was excited. I told him and he said, OW made him sick. Yeah. Nice.

When WH left to go to his parents and did not turn up to OW. She faked a heart attack, stayed in hospital for 3d and when WH mother phoned OW to keep her off our backs, OW went ballistic. OW could not in a million years meet WH needs! Even the bj she attempted was a certain stopper for WH. He knew he could get better at home. So he stopped it. The fact that she's broke and unemployed would be a deal breaker for WH. No one to support him.

* WH admits that he "groomed" OW to have an A. Admits he lied and embellished alot about our marriage to get her in the sack. Nothing more. He never intended on leaving us. He never wanted us to find out. Derr. WH friends said WH should apologise to OW but Police orders meant NC.

* WH has been diagnosed with specific disorders since the A. Do you think THESE ALSO played a part IN HIS DECISION TO HAVE AN AFFAIR?

* WH actually stopped the A on the first flesh encounter because he said "he KNEW it was wrong. He loved me and couldn't let it go any further".

* WH "had heard SO much about how exciting As were" (he's a great movie goer) he just wanted to see what all the excitement was about. He now says "As are horrible, just awful. I'm ashamed and disgusted in myself and there's NOTHING good about them". IC is still unpacking that one.

 

Mrs rubble. One person's DECISION to begin and partake of an affair is just that. "Problems in the marriage" are just that.

If problems in a marriage naturally or even automatically (good grief!) lead to affairs then how come I didn't hump OM at the first opportunity when WH put us in debt? I'll tell you. I dealt with it as a mature, married person. A FAITHFUL married person. I got a job! I dealt with similar issues WH brought into the marraige in the same mature, sensible and FAITHFUL manner. It was MY decision to make a moral choice. WH decision to make an IMMORAL choice. Deep character flaws, enabled by familial behaviours.

 

It's a good thing you don't discuss these issues with your children.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

My children, two young adult daughters and a son readying for college, SUSPECTED way before I did but refrained from mentioning anything to each other or me for fear of hurting feelings, KWIM?

 

Ahhh....love is blind.

 

A family man stops coming home, stops being kind to their mother, all under the guise of working a new, high-powered, high paying job, the one we had all been praying for because we just wanted Dad to be HAPPY again.... We chalked it up to job stress not realizing he had crashed into a needy, D, drama queen.

 

We all start walking on eggshells....BIG mistake.

 

After DDay, they demanded to know why he wasn't honest with me or them; Why didn't he tell US the truth, SEPARATE and seek marriage counseling to know if there was a marriage worth saving AND given me the option to see if there was a man better suited to meeting MY needs while he pursued his attraction to his OW.

 

cheaters are too selfish to let you play by their rules. Their egos could NEVER allow it.

 

As much as that would have hurt, it would have been the HONEST and ADULT action to take.

 

Out of the mouths of babes.....

 

Spark, I'm sorry this has happened to you and your family.

It IS shocking. Maybe there isn't any "good" way to break up a family. I agree. But getting the next partner boiling on the backburner is cowardly and plain wrong. Not seeing the destruction that a WSs A causes is cowardly too.

 

I know that if the children didn't have an opportunity to work through such horrible emotions such as betrayal & deceit of a parent BEFORE they leave, the damage can be so great that at times the relationship is irrepairable.

 

Lion Heart.

[Genieve]

It is apparent from your posts that you have anger issues and seem unable to keep them under wraps. I think this has probably affected your kids as much as your WHs behaviour. Personally I think you should split for a while to enable yourselves to calm down. I know and appreciate that your WH is a conflict avoided and needs to know the consequences of his actions but your anger is mind blowing. Wow. You have absolutely no respect for your WH and how is that going to change. I doubt you love him either. So why not cut your losses.

[Genieve]

And it's a fact that when asked no matter how bad the relationship, kids will always say they don't want you to split. The younger ones particularly. However when they see how better their relationship with their parents is after, they realise it was for the best.

[gettingstronger]

I wonder if in time your husband will accept what he has done to the kids. I know at the beginning my husband could not see (or maybe did not want to see) what his actions did to our boys. We are 2+ years from dday and I think around year 1 he burst in to tears after a great family day. I asked him what is wrong and he said, I really don't deserve kids like that especially considering what I did to them. I think it was the first time, unprompted that he spoke about his impact on the boys. From that day forward, he has acknowledged his impact on the boys.

 

He has said, I hope they are better than me, I hope they don't chose my path, I hope I didn't set them up for failure.

 

My husband is from a very broken home, so I think it took him a while to admit to himself that he failed to do one of the things he always wanted to do-raise his kids in a conflict free home.

[merrmeade]

Age appropriate answer:? That is simple. "This is between your Father and I". No paper or pen needed. A group hug though to help them thru the family heartache.

I totally agree there is no way I'd be burdening a 9 yo or 12yo's with so many details about an adult issue.

I think dropping a blanket script like this on all situations involving children is guaranteed to cause more damage than telling them as much as they need to know according to what you know about your children. Too little information can be worse than too much. Better, this: a caring parent who knows and listens to her children, responding to THEIR needs. And what happened when she did? They were comforted. They had a place to go when they needed to express their grief. That she gets comfort in return is one of the incidental serendipities of good parenting.

 

If you read the circumstances carefully in the beginning, WH had already told the younger children:

On DDay WH told our twin sons (12y) that he'd had an A while I was driving back with my DD (9) from her gym class.

and so OP had no choice but to tell her daughter, considering also that WF had packed and left.

 

Not only that, because she "could see they were feeling low," she explains,

I got them together and answered more of their questions in as age appropriate way as I could. I didn't expand their knowledge with a monologue, merely clarified their concerns.

[Confused48]

It's a good thing you don't discuss these issues with your children.

 

Lion Heart.

 

Great post LH! All of it. But especially this ^^^^ !

 

You are so right. There are some here posting, don't tell the children anything, and yes, there are some WS that should be silent. Lest they do more damage than they have already done. If you can not say you are sorry, own your mistake, then just keep quiet.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Confused48

[merrmeade]

Sandylee, it's full blown NPD in full blown action. Iced with overblown entitlement, it's a wonder from he** to behold.

 

R hasn't made WH issues ^^^ change into humility or responsibility. He shows shame at times. I've noticed signs of depression (beg of remorse) at times too but these feelings don't last long. He reverts to more comfortable modes. In fact I'm wondering whether R has turned up the volume of his behaviours. I'm tempted to replace our MC session for Friday into an IC for me to discuss this with psychiatrist / psychologist. I think R is "feeding" WH behaviour and I can see why! I'm ready to ditch MC completely and replace it with Life Coaching for me, other preparatory therapies and hot yoga!

 

It's almost impossible for WH to lay Narcissus's mirror down to SEE us. Literally! That's what Number 13. illustrates. The chn and I were parked FACING the doors of the bottle shop. HUGE 4WD, lights on. Broad daylight. WH pushed his trolley full of grog out the doors, full on towards us, didn't see us, even with his "sentinel-like" head scanning the territory back and forth and still didn't even notice his W and 3 chn in the car. It goes on but I won't go on any more about that.

 

It's like I'm seeing things with my eyes WIDE OPEN now.

It's assaulting my sensibilities.

 

I think he's hoping we'll all just get back to normal but there is no going back because I can SEE what he's doing far more clearly as the days and weeks go on. He's absolutely NOT the man I thought he was AT ALL. I knew alot but nowhere near all.

 

Lion Heart.

This is just too hard.

 

What ARE you doing for yourself? Someone you trust is taking the kids on a regular basis so you can do these things for yourself, right? You're in the throes of post-DDay trauma, need and have every right not to be in control all the time, yet you have to be for the children. You need a break for all those things you listed or you can't do it.

 

For myself, after dealing with an undiagnosed (but irrefutable) NPD for 2.5 yrs post-DDay, this part is where I ended up:

... ditch MC completely and replace it with Life Coaching for me, other preparatory therapies and hot yoga!

In fact, every single one of these I'm doing. I think you should consider your jump-starting your own script and throw in a 2-hour massage that he pays for AT LEAST once a month.

 

And there's something I didn't understand, LH: Why were you and the children there (in the parking lot at the bottle shop)? They would not have interpreted the images the same as you, but what did the children say and do after seeing this?

[mrs rubble]

Oh gosh I must be healing, I actually laughed when I read this mrs rubble. You remind me of my MIL blaming me, OH and the OW for HER SONS AFFAIR, yet HE was the ONLY person being unfaithful. This misguided attitude of hers was VERY short lived as she found out the truth and went NC on HER SON. The very first time they'd ever NCd one of their own children in near on 50y of parenting. Their 2 DD have also cheated on spouses and LTR partners. Heredity don't you think? FAMILY conditioning? Enabling behaviours as you espouse also.

 

You can ask my WH why? In fact I just read your post to him and he said "I entirely disagree with that woman. It was all on me." BTW WH knows my user name here and reads my posts. I've asked WH on many occasions WHY. This in combination with MC and IC has lead to THESE conclusions:

* Yes! WH knew I'd offered lunch time rumbles in the sack on my 2d off per week. He owns his own business, he came home THREE x in 4months. 2x to do it, with no warning to me but ofcourse I obliged and 1x in a total panic after he'd "almost" done it with OW, he left quickly to buy tickets to see a band for us and a motel stay over. Basically we had sex whenever he approached me / whenever he said "wake me up when you put the kids to sleep".

* WH was envious of ME! Because: (yes dammit there's a list of things he's envious of!?*!× wtf? His wife?)

1.I have a stable well paying job and he's made a mess of his own employment for near 30y. I've SUPPORTED his 5 changes of career in 15y, wholeheartedly. To make HIM happy. It didn't.

In fact I was AT THE accountants WHILE he had the sexual part of his A for WH BUSINESS! He had 150% of my support.

2. I know how to manage money. This annoys him. I've tried endlessly to teach him but he gets himself further into debt. I gave up trying, let him do the business any way he chose years ago and gained FT employment to pay for everything. INCLUDING another $6k credit card he busted DURING his A.

3. I make sensible decisions. His words. This annoys him that I do and he doesn't.

4. I get HIT ON all the time. He has only been "approached" once sort of. He ran with it. He hated taking me out anywhere for this reason. I ALWAYS tried to hide the fact it happened and deflected EVERY approach. I've got unlisted numbers and alias names on all online things for this very reason. He's insanely jealous not of other men. But of the attention I get and hey I'm no model but I guess other things are attractive too.

* WH wanted "flesh". "Different flesh" is how the MC corrected him. Hey! His choice. He was SO welcome to go to OW THE NIGHT of my D Day. I told her first, she was excited. I told him and he said, OW made him sick. Yeah. Nice.

When WH left to go to his parents and did not turn up to OW. She faked a heart attack, stayed in hospital for 3d and when WH mother phoned OW to keep her off our backs, OW went ballistic. OW could not in a million years meet WH needs! Even the bj she attempted was a certain stopper for WH. He knew he could get better at home. So he stopped it. The fact that she's broke and unemployed would be a deal breaker for WH. No one to support him.

* WH admits that he "groomed" OW to have an A. Admits he lied and embellished alot about our marriage to get her in the sack. Nothing more. He never intended on leaving us. He never wanted us to find out. Derr. WH friends said WH should apologise to OW but Police orders meant NC.

* WH has been diagnosed with specific disorders since the A. Do you think THESE ALSO played a part IN HIS DECISION TO HAVE AN AFFAIR?

* WH actually stopped the A on the first flesh encounter because he said "he KNEW it was wrong. He loved me and couldn't let it go any further".

* WH "had heard SO much about how exciting As were" (he's a great movie goer) he just wanted to see what all the excitement was about. He now says "As are horrible, just awful. I'm ashamed and disgusted in myself and there's NOTHING good about them". IC is still unpacking that one.

 

Mrs rubble. One person's DECISION to begin and partake of an affair is just that. "Problems in the marriage" are just that.

If problems in a marriage naturally or even automatically (good grief!) lead to affairs then how come I didn't hump OM at the first opportunity when WH put us in debt? I'll tell you. I dealt with it as a mature, married person. A FAITHFUL married person. I got a job! I dealt with similar issues WH brought into the marraige in the same mature, sensible and FAITHFUL manner. It was MY decision to make a moral choice. WH decision to make an IMMORAL choice. Deep character flaws, enabled by familial behaviours.

 

It's a good thing you don't discuss these issues with your children.

 

Lion Heart.

 

My gosh you're mighty sensitive and defensive given I suggested an imaginary scenario!!

I didn't read all of your post as it seems you're off on a tangent providing completely unnecessary information in order to get your point across...... Same mistake many people make with their children.... Seems you didn't read the few words I provided either, as I did say that I agreed that it should be discussed with the children, I just don't agree that they need to be burdened with so many details or have a list of grievances.

I'm very proud of my 2 sons, they've both got rotton fathers, but I've never made them sit down and write a list of their dads faults.I've answered their questions, taken them to counseling and reassured them that I love them. As young men they both respect that I never bad mouthed their dad and they were able to draw their own conclusions.

[merrmeade]

My gosh you're mighty sensitive and defensive given I suggested an imaginary scenario!!

I didn't read all of your post as it seems you're off on a tangent providing completely unnecessary information in order to get your point across...... Same mistake many people make with their children.... Seems you didn't read the few words I provided either, as I did say that I agreed that it should be discussed with the children, I just don't agree that they need to be burdened with so many details or have a list of grievances.

I'm very proud of my 2 sons, they've both got rotton fathers, but I've never made them sit down and write a list of their dads faults.I've answered their questions, taken them to counseling and reassured them that I love them. As young men they both respect that I never bad mouthed their dad and they were able to draw their own conclusions.

mrs rubble this is not the time.

You don't shake your finger at families in mourning even if you're right (which you're not).

 

We BSs open ourselves up when we post here so soon after Dday and maybe it's on topic and representing some related viewpoint, but it's heartless to criticize, get defensive, then engage her in argument. This is where you give a margin out of respect and compassion. Besides, like you said: You didn't even read everything.

[mrs rubble]

mrs rubble this is not the time.

You don't shake your finger at families in mourning even if you're right (which you're not).

 

We BSs open ourselves up when we post here so soon after Dday and maybe it's on topic and representing some related viewpoint, but it's heartless to criticize, get defensive, then engage her in argument. This is where you give a margin out of respect and compassion. Besides, like you said: You didn't even read everything.

 

You're right I apologise if I've been hurtful. I'm just concerned for the children.

[merrmeade]

You're right I apologise if I've been hurtful. I'm just concerned for the children.

 

So is Lionheart parentheses thinking of the children). But decent of you to apologize.

 

Now moving on ...

[merrmeade]

It is apparent from your posts that you have anger issues and seem unable to keep them under wraps. I think this has probably affected your kids as much as your WHs behaviour. Personally I think you should split for a while to enable yourselves to calm down. I know and appreciate that your WH is a conflict avoided and needs to know the consequences of his actions but your anger is mind blowing. Wow. You have absolutely no respect for your WH and how is that going to change. I doubt you love him either. So why not cut your losses.

Lionheart, blink twice, breathe deeply once, then please move past these judgmental posts. If this were not so heartless it would be hilarious. "Anger issues"? A little bit maybe. People who haven't experienced the trauma and pain of the betrayed spouse just don't have a reference. Press the 'Ignore' button. Leave it at that - she just doesn't know what she's talking about - and move on by. Edited March 25, 2015 by merrmeade

[Quiet Storm]

I don't think its OK to give kids sexual details or to involve them in heated arguments or drama.

 

However, kids live in the household. They have a right to express their feelings about what goes on in that household. They have a right to express their disappointment to their father, not simply for disrespecting his marriage and their mother, but for disrespecting their family. Affairs are not just about the spouses relationship, regardless of what people involved in them want to believe. The family is a unit, and issues like affairs and addictions affect the entire family.

 

My parents had a lot of arguments and drama when I was very young, and my mom seemed to always be mad at my dad. I would hear my mom yell and he'd just sit there and take it. In my young mind, my mom was being mean to my dad and I saw him as the victim. I resented my mom and it did affect the way I felt about her. I drew my own conclusions because I didn't have all the information.

 

Eventually, I found my dad's Narcotics Anonymous journal and read it. He was lying to my mom, spending all the money on drugs and stealing. He had a coke problem and was an alcoholic, as well. Reading it made so much about my family and it's dynamic make sense. His behavior wasn't my fault. It wasn't my mom's fault. He had issues. It was freeing... Dad wasn't screaming at me because he hates me, he was on coke!

 

My mom had tried to protect us from the truth. She didn't want to embarrass him or us to lose respect for him. But the truth is, we knew something was wrong, and by sheltering us from the truth, we drew the wrong conclusions. We still experienced all the drama and tension, but had to guess at the reasons. We felt confused and helpless.

 

I think having the truth about their lives can help kids affected by affairs accept the truth and deal with it. This gives them an opportunity to cope with it in a healthy way, instead of doing what many kids do- escaping & detaching from their feelings. Young kids escape & detach with excessive video games, TV, internet and older kids will escape and detach with drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, porn, criminal friends, etc. Giving them the truth about their life allows them to accept & cope. And that's a good thing!

 

Imagine how many more emotionally healthy adults we'd have right now if their parents were honest about problems and provided them with the tools to cope, instead of being told "these are grown up problems". Kids end up being left in the dark to deal with stress that they have no idea how to cope with. These are the people that turn into grown ups who escape, avoid, lie and deal with their problems in unhealthy ways.

 

Most kids are not just mindless beings where you can just tell them "No worries, it's going to be OK" and they blindly accept it. They have their own minds, and most are pretty smart. This is their family and their household, why shouldn't have input? Why can't they list their grievances? Why can't they know the truth about their life, their history, their experiences? Knowledge is power.

 

I don't think lies protect kids- lies protect cheaters and addicts. Cheaters want to control what everyone knows, so that they can manipulate the way others perceive them.

[Genieve]

Lionheart, blink twice, breathe deeply once, then please move past these judgmental posts. If this were not so heartless it would be hilarious. "Anger issues"? A little bit maybe. People who haven't experienced the trauma and pain of the betrayed spouse just don't have a reference. Press the 'Ignore' button. Leave it at that - she just doesn't know what she's talking about - and move on by.

I'm not being judgmental I've been there..6 "years.!!! "imagine how much anger she would feel if he abandoned her. He hasn't. My Mm abandoned me despite professing his love and crying. Be angry then.! You have no idea.

[Quiet Storm]

I'm not being judgmental I've been there..6 "years.!!! "imagine how much anger she would feel if he abandoned her. He hasn't. My Mm abandoned me despite professing his love and crying. Be angry then.! You have no idea.

 

Imagine being betrayed after years of marriage, and having to not only cope with your own emotional pain and anger, but your children's, as well. That is what this poster is facing.

 

I agree that OW do hurt, too, but choosing to participate in an affair with someone who you know is married and has kids is a poor choice. You decided that your MM was worth the risk and hung in there for 6 years. You chose this life that you are living right now.

 

These kids didn't have a choice. Their dad is a cheater who didn't respect their mom and didn't honor his family by doing the right thing. They are innocents.

 

Your MM abandoned you, disappointed you and broke his promises, but you knew he was a cheater. You knew he was a conflict avoider. You knew he had it in him to be sneaky and hurt his loved ones.

 

The kids didn't know all that about their dad. They have to accept that this man that they admired and looked up to, who teaches them that it's wrong to lie and break promises, who is supposed to guide them and protect them, has hurt their mother, lied to them and put their family in jeopardy. It's a shock to them. They have every right to be hurt and feel betrayed, and the BW has every right as their mother to help them cope with their pain. He let all of them down.

 

You may feel that a MMs promises to his OW are just as important as his commitment to his family, but in most cases the promises to OW are empty. Romance rarely trumps a man's commitment to his family, as you are now realizing. So try to see past your own pain and put things in perspective.

[Tayla]

just so I understand Lionheart is the Op? and mermeade is.... a thread member. Got a little confusing there for a few statements as mermeade seemed to take on a protective attitude....Again if Lionheart is the op, then here is my final word. The damage is done, love your children, chin up. And sometimes its okay to be the one to remove pandoras box and carry on in a stoic fashion.As it was stated on page one you thanked us for our imput. And I thank you for openly sharing your story.

[merrmeade]

I'm not being judgmental I've been there..6 "years.!!! "imagine how much anger she would feel if he abandoned her. He hasn't. My Mm abandoned me despite professing his love and crying. Be angry then.! You have no idea.

No, you're right; I have no idea. I made an assumption, and that was my point: Assumptions are not helpful. I hope you can get past mine to see how yours may not be helpful to OP.

 

First of all, isn't "mind-blowing" anger the norm in this situation? What gets ignored is the importance of expressing it for future mental health. If you don't, what you get later is debilitating depression.

 

So, if you got it, you need to vent it, and what safer place to do so than on LS? I should hope anyway. That is, a BS shouldn't think twice about expressing rage toward the WS in her own thread on LS a month after Dday. It's called venting in a safe place.

 

In fact, I would assume the opposite. I would assume that her ability to scorch the page with white hot rage more than likely means she does NOT do it inappropriately in other arenas.

 

So, I see no reason to get the Lion further riled up with assumptions about generalized "anger issues" that have "affected [the] kids as much as...WHs behaviour" because she's "unable to keep them under wraps." Who can say that?

 

Maybe just ask her if she worries about the effect of her emotions on the children, rather than telling her what they are.

[merrmeade]

:o

just so I understand Lionheart is the Op? and mermeade is.... a thread member. Got a little confusing there for a few statements as mermeade seemed to take on a protective attitude....

Pfffffft. :o Projection of my own issues, I guess. Edited March 25, 2015 by merrmeade

[Lion Heart]

This is just too hard.

 

What ARE you doing for yourself? Someone you trust is taking the kids on a regular basis so you can do these things for yourself, right? You're in the throes of post-DDay trauma, need and have every right not to be in control all the time, yet you have to be for the children. You need a break for all those things you listed or you can't do it.

 

For myself, after dealing with an undiagnosed (but irrefutable) NPD for 2.5 yrs post-DDay, this part is where I ended up: In fact, every single one of these I'm doing. I think you should consider your jump-starting your own script and throw in a 2-hour massage that he pays for AT LEAST once a month.

 

And there's something I didn't understand, LH: Why were you and the children there (in the parking lot at the bottle shop)? They would not have interpreted the images the same as you, but what did the children say and do after seeing this?

 

Thankyou merrmeade,

 

As per support for the chn. My eldest DD and SIL had the 3 chn D Day night. They were fantastic. Immediately fantastic but due to them having a young baby, I can't ask them to do more. My child psych friend K, lives on a farm 4h away. She's a single parent, works, is a foster carer and manages her farm. And also cares for her mother with beginning dementia living on her farm. K took the chn back to her farm for a week. But after 2 nights 2 of the chn were fretting so we went to stay and bring them home. K supports us via speaker phone at times but also with her responsibilities, I can't stand leaning on her too much.

 

My mother is out of the picture due to being jailed for violence against us when I had newborn twins. NC for past 11y. Remainder of 39 adults in M family (except brother & SIL) virtually went NC from then.

 

OWs SIL offered to have the chn ANYTIME but WH freaked! I work with this lady and they're NC with OW but FAR too close for comfort.

 

As mentioned b4 except for the first month when WH family were intent on laying total blame on me, WH mother went NC with wayward son for days, kept in touch with me only and I think THIS shocked them back to 100% support for WH. Not our family unit. WH gets talks from his siblings around leaving us. They've all done similar and keep practising this behaviour. I'm definitely NC with all of them. Will stay this way if we separate, we're together now but I'm NC for......until.

 

My own brother & SIL live in the next suburb. They are both profoundly deaf. Both work FT. I can text them but this A has upset them very much. They came on Christmas Day. Have visited once or twice but have SIL sons and grandchildren they keep company most with. It's one of brother's houses he offered for cheaper rent until all chn leave home, should we separate & D.

Same. I CAN ask for help, support but it's awful seeing them both cry and brother getting so angry! Brother offered 3m work to WH and I'm sure it's to "watch" him.

 

One neighbour is a psych also. She drank with me till 4:30am on D Day night even tho we're both usually non-drinkers. I know she's there. I've spoken at length with her a few times. She's a leopard....spots person.

 

The teachers at chns school are fantastic. Been associated with the school for 18y. Alot of support in the way of kindness and consideration and making allowances for a lot.

 

People at my work are loving and kind but I try not to get too far into it - due to being... at work! And in a challenging environment. My contract doesn't allow me to disclose or discuss my work outside work at all beyond this.

 

Basically my friends are now "waiting it out" in the wings. I'm sure they all think our marriage is over and they all know what they have to do for me once it happens. Move a massive house. Help with the kids. I'll get more support leaving than staying. That's not the deciding factor for me at all. If I counted all these friends who would support me it would be over 50 up to 150. Yes living in the same area for 6 generations has its advantages.

 

Still I feel most at home with ls members.

 

Will answer the "bottle shop" questions when my fingers recover from typing on my phone. Lol.

 

Suffice to say atm I've asked WH if I could highjack our MC tomorrow as an IC for me. He's at physio anyway for his surgery earlier this week. He couldn't deny I need it more than MC right now.

 

:-)

 

LH

[Lion Heart]

My gosh you're mighty sensitive and defensive

 

but I've never made them sit down and write a list of their dads faults.I've answered their questions, taken them to counseling and reassured them that I love them. As young men they both respect that I never bad mouthed their dad and they were able to draw their own conclusions.

 

Yes I confess I am extremely sensitive at the moment. My earth shook and my entire world changed, irreversibly, 13w 3d ago. I've got 3 degrees in my profession and other quals too but for alot of the time, since D Day, I've asked myself and others "my G** how could I hold these degrees when I know NOTHING???" My mind completely melted and I'm suffering from PTSD now. My WH just came to me now. He talked kindly and hugged me for. .. too long. I started to cry. Then cried more because I don't want him to see me vulnerable. I've not felt these feelings of vulnerability since I was a child witnessing horrors of my parents M. WH said "it's ok I love you. We're gonna make it."

Serenity prayer.

 

My strength is returning. Everyone around me say they're surprised at how well I'm doing.

I'm very good at putting on a brave face.

 

Now for a more rational and educated response to the latter part of above quote mrs rubble.

 

I would never, as you say make "my children sit down and write a list of their dads faults".

NEVER. Good grief what a notion! That's why I laughed in response at first. I'm obliged to clarify. Ofcourse I don't expect you to know my children or indeed me. Nor any family members here or our experience, each D Day is unique I'm certain. The machinations of each family are also unique and widely diverse at times, I concede and bear witness to this every moment of every day in my work.

 

So before you become even more carried away with your imagination, I will clarify.

The creation of their list of the "Top 10 things you DON'T do after an affair":

1) my chn were very sad, feeling low. Not their usual FFFriday night (Friday night here usually = fun, fizzy and fire. We USUALLY stoke up the outdoor oven, bake pizzas, drink fizzy and tell jokes, run around the back yard, swim in the pool. The pool's green. Yard's overgrown. Dad went out with mates.)

2) I asked them all together in an attempt to answer questions they'd asked me previously and I was unable to. So I cleared the floor for them.

3) I encourage my chn to be honest with me at all times. Got way too much information from eldest DD sometimes but there you go!

4) the questions and tears came for over an hour.

5) the chn were frustrated with WF as they thought it was OBVIOUS what he should be DOING and couldn't SEE him doing those things. (Not faults of WH / WF, INAPPROPRIATE ACTIONS)

6) twin 2 said he needed a list!

7) they wanted to TELL WF what they considered he needed to do.

8) they were fed up with his behaviours

9) they asked me if there was a list I could give him. I said no.

10) they decided to write one themselves.

Communicating HONESTLY TO THEIR FATHER BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE. I encourage honesty here. They're very honest with me too, as I am with them. I don't need a list because I HEAR them the first time.

11) I scribed because 3 of them were shooting recommendations at me and only I could write fast enough. I wasn't allowed to alter 1 word.

12) kids got to about number 13 in the list and started to laugh about how ridiculous the whole scenario was playing out that night for us.

13) kids asked me to read it to WF before he came into the house. I did. He cried at the truth if it.

 

I haven't "bad mouthed" their dad. He's done a masterful job at discrediting himself to them.

I'm not going to deny their father's inappropriate behaviour that they've witnessed themselves. How insanely duplicitous would that be. If I spoke to them about the more personal issues between WH and myself, which is highly inappropriate, I guess the list may have tripled. Lol.

 

Lion Heart.

[mrs rubble]

^^you must have missed where I apologise if I come across as hurtful.

 

There is no need to explain yourself to me. I have no idea what it feels like to consider trying to stay in a marriage like that. My separation from my boys dad was due to violence not cheating (although I have been cheated on before, I ran from that relationship before asking any questions)

My main concern was thinking it was your idea to sit them down to compile this list, the money spent on alcohol etc. were things that my children at that age would've known nothing about.

[Lion Heart]

It is apparent from your posts that you have anger issues and seem unable to keep them under wraps. I think this has probably affected your kids as much as your WHs behaviour. Personally I think you should split for a while to enable yourselves to calm down. I know and appreciate that your WH is a conflict avoided and needs to know the consequences of his actions but your anger is mind blowing. Wow. You have absolutely no respect for your WH and how is that going to change. I doubt you love him either. So why not cut your losses.

 

Thankyou (sincerely meant) for your post Genieve. It's given me opportunity to reflect. Again.

I absolutely, totally DO have "anger"!

They're not "anger issues". But I thank you for your remote diagnosis (that's sarcasm).

I have "appropriate anger towards the perpetrator of my pain" ie my WH. This quote was from the best psychiatrist / psychologist in our area (Head of Psychology for over a decade in our district) who we've been seeing since D Day. She used her list to check whether I had "anger ISSUES" but that came up zero. She added "grief". I don't lose my temper with my chn, at my work which is a pressure cooker on good days! No one and nothing else. Just WH, only WH.

 

In fact the psych has also affirmed that if I did NOT display an "appropriate" level of anger for WH and this situation, she would've been far more concerned. She also enquired if I was seeking meds to cope (as my Drs enquired also).

I responded with an emphatic NO! to all professionals. I acquiesced that I'd self medicated with alcohol for a month and was done. They all knew I was a non-drinker b4 D Day and told me to return for support with kicking that if it became a habit. It didn't. I'm done there.

 

The more our C discovers in IC / MC about the issues WH brought upon our family and dumped on me to deal with for years, the more anger she realises as a "perfectly normal response". Her words. I'd dealt appropriately with these pressures. WH dealt inappropriately.

 

In fact K, my psych best friend, anticipates the next move of WH and prepares me for it.

When my flaring anger subsided (and I certainly wasn't even angry this whole time), around 6w post D Day, WHs flared up. She warned me of this in psych terms. Anyone who KNOWS the psychology of a BW and a WH plus knowing both people for decades, can acknowledge the patterns going on here. I'm in the dark, until these experienced professionals shine a light. It's truly enlightening. A cr** situation, but add ls and I'm absolutely blessed! For you too G, truthfully.

 

I'm having IC and Life Coaching tomorrow.

My focus will be on my detachment, anger & my own independent rejuvenation.

 

My anger during R has been mostly ABOUT WH threatening to leave us then NOT leaving. Maybe 15x in 12w. He packed his bags on D Day (in front of my crying twins, b4 I came home with DD) and didn't unpack them until 12w post D Day. THIS plus knowing he had intended to leave us all on D Day literally did my head in.

"Don't keep threatening to leave, just leave!"

was a repeated phrase of mine. When he didn't and HE calmed down he always said "I've never had any intention of leaving". So wtf? Pack, not leave? Leave, come back? What are you doing? His response "I don't know. Give me time. I need to work things out".

 

By 12w after another round of this bs. I sat him down and gently said "I love you enough to let you go. I can see you're struggling staying here. I know you can't handle the thought of having the kids 50/50. I'll raise them. We'll be ok. I know you want to go. We'll sell the house asap. Your settlement will be ok. You can start again. It's ok. You are released." I was ready. I thought he might be staying until I was ok with it. I was ok with it.

 

It would be far easier if I didn't love him.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

^^you must have missed where I apologise if I come across as hurtful.

 

There is no need to explain yourself to me. I have no idea what it feels like to consider trying to stay in a marriage like that. My separation from my boys dad was due to violence not cheating (although I have been cheated on before, I ran from that relationship before asking any questions)

My main concern was thinking it was your idea to sit them down to compile this list, the money spent on alcohol etc. were things that my children at that age would've known nothing about.

 

Thankyou mrs rubble. Gosh not my idea or concept whatsoever to write this list. A NEED to communicate with their father b4 it was too late and I packed us up and left. It was overnight my last marriage. The chn knew this much! The kids knew my exit plan as did WH. It was being brought more into existence every single day.

 

Sincerely mrs rubble, you're a very strong woman to leave a domestic violence situation. I'm so sorry you endured that yourself. I'm so sorry your children were part of that equation too. So sad. Sometimes situations like yours and mine are anomalies of life. No one really ever "wins". These things are so non-sensical.

Why? Is a biggy.

 

Sometimes, as sad and hard as it is to ever accept, people just can't seek and receive the help they need. It just doesn't happen. We have no sane choice but to leave.

 

Damage happens to us, our children and the WS.

What do we do? There are individual answers to that question. It depends on SO MUCH serendipity. I can't stand the sayings of "the things you experienced as a child, Lion Heart, were character building" when referring to the beatings, violence, insanity, poverty etc etc.

What blatant rot. No. Otherwise we should ALL expose our chn to these abhorrent things to "build our chns character"! No. No more excuses. No more convenient denial which excuses anybody from taking responsibility for their own actions. It's absurd. It's a sickness of our society to excuse such behaviours.

 

I commend you for leaving a DV marriage. I can't imagine how you suffered. I'm sorry for your suffering. I hope you can heal and be strong in the world.

 

Many blessings

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

This is just too hard.

 

What ARE you doing for yourself? ....throw in a 2-hour massage that he pays for AT LEAST once a month.

 

And there's something I didn't understand, LH: Why were you and the children there (in the parking lot at the bottle shop)? They would not have interpreted the images the same as you, but what did the children say and do after seeing this?

 

Hi M, long time! Ha ha

 

Thankyou for your empathy for the longest time.

 

I'll tell you what I'm doing for myself:

- I'm sporting THE most ridiculously inconvenient fake nails. Had them since Boxing Day. Get them routinely done and all hell could break loose at home but I'm not missing my nail appointment! Only joshing but almost true!

- to match my nails, I'm completing "the look" with a fake tan! Plus waxing to the hilt AND all sorts of tinting, facials and hairdressing to boot. My new beautician is making mega bucks from this A! As is any other business in the "catering for women" fields. TBH the beautician is giving me discounts, I keep referring new customers to her. BWs in fact. The ones who can't believe how "great" I look "considering".

- got alot of new underwear & lingerie. WH always said there was "no need" for all that. But for ME there is, no matter if no one sees it. I feel better wearing it.

- I've "allowed" myself to spend time with friends and family. WH hasn't liked me doing this. There's always been SO much for me to do for his business, the house, the garden.

- I've given 100% responsibility for WH business back to him. No free book keeping from me anymore, wouldn't be paid for it either. Just not my business. He found time to have an A during work hours when I didn't have time to scratch myself? Yeah. That's over.

- I've maintained my 3d pw job. Diverted my pay to my own a/c. Plus all my savings and investments.

- I've insisted WH pay back the $8k in total I gave to him during his A to pay off bills. The gravy train stopped making gravy for him on D Day.

- I've booked a holiday for me and the kids over Easter. We missed out big time over the 6w Christmas break here. Kids and me come first now. My money. I'm paying. WH has no say. WH won't restrain us with his miserly kibbles anymore. Nor with the debts he seems addicted to accruing. I'm done.

- I've had my car overhauled. New tyres (yes this is spoiling myself!) safe enough for 4wd plus visiting Ks farm & son-in-laws relatives who've been endlessly inviting us to stay at their farms. WH has been known as "Mr NO man".

I'm saying yes now.

I've respected WHs wishes for far too long. He never saw reason. He disrespected us when we showed him love and respect. I'm bringing mine and the kids wishes, happiness, dreams to fruition.

- I'm doing Hot Yoga with my eldest DD.

- having dates with my children. WH can too. He chooses not to. That's entirely up to him.

- Life Coaching starts tomorrow.

 

I've never been a selfish person. It's been a very difficult thing for me to keep overcoming since D Day. I'm more comfortable in service to others but during R, WH said that that's my problem "not being selfish like him"! I couldn't dream of being as selfish as him.

But now it's his problem actually! WH does yet doesn't like these changes at all. Too bad really.

 

R isn't comfortable for WH because I've given him back his responsibilities. I'm not being his door mat. At first he wanted a better marriage, now he just wants our old M back.

 

This is the gift I've given myself. Autonomy of sorts.

 

Lion Heart.