Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[merrmeade]

The demonstrated actions were contrary to any prior demonstrated or agreed to commitments of love and fidelity, hence were not loving my spouse the way I was 'supposed to' and had freely agreed to.

 

While such actions/words might be more nebulous or explained away in the case of surreptitious or deceptive affairs, mine were out in the open and transparent and without ambiguity. I think my exW would agree. She experienced a lot of hateful stuff and there was no ambiguity on my part about it. She even had the benefit of advance notice so there was no ambiguity about what was coming next.

 

I think the specificities of our particular milieu were addressed quite well in MC and, as is nearly universal, are specific to us, hence another person or marriage could have a completely different dynamic, result and forensic analysis. Extrapolating, another person's viewpoint on love could find them loving their partner how they believe they're supposed to and having other 'loves' to go along with that primary love. What's happening here is that we, as LS members and/or societal members, are offering opinion and/or making judgments regarding others from our perspectives, in general. Those judgments and/or perspectives are non-binding. My experience over the decades with MW's underscores this, how each marriage, affair, and person is different. Yep, I can make value judgments, sure. They're vaporware. You think those people care? Not one whit. They do what they do. It works!

thanks for the explanation. Clear. But disturbing.

[Lion Heart]

She is not hearing ANY of that predator talk from me. That is what I'm thinking but I'm not sharing that with her.(at this point) She has never said she is any kind of victim in this at all and is taking 100% of the blame, she's not blaming him and not blaming me any longer.

 

At some point if this works she will have to forgive herself for us to be whole and then I will share my thought then.

 

Dear VBM,

 

IMO it seems a very wise thing for you to do; express your ideas, thoughts, possible assumptions here about WW A before disclosing /discussing said to your WW. I most definitely respect your modus operandi being your marraige, your head, your R etc.

 

My previous post was based on the way I operate, hence the rush to respond to you and assertive language used. I apologise and register our opposite modes in R. (I haven't written anything here that I haven't already discussed with WH first. WH knows my ls user name and checks my posts. My way is merely different to yours, not better nor superior, different).

 

As you described the "predatorial nature" of OM as a thought only at this stage, shared through ls for feedback, I believe you're receiving very healthy feedback.

 

Ofcourse OM may have been and may still be a predatory type creature. There are plenty of people operating in THAT mode - always will be.

 

My point is, it shouldn't matter what type of people attempt to penetrate the marraige. It's the ongoing work of each partner in a marriage to individually retain the integrity of their commitment to their partner by putting up a strong mental and physical barrier to keep all others out. IMHO regardless of the state of the marriage whatsoever this integrity must be kept OR as we see plainly here, the marriage is destroyed.

 

Sure a very few may "reconcile" but the scar is there. It's a scarred 2nd place to the in tact marraige vows adhered to previously.

 

Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

Another difference with your H — and I laud you on holding out for this one — is the IC and MC. Very impressed with that, LH. I would never get my husband to do that. Long history of psychologist prejudice. Goes along with the rest of the profile.

 

Mermeade it wasn't my idea nor suggestion that WH attend IC. I phoned up for an appt for myself at 8:30am morning after D Day.

 

WH asked me to book IC for him when he arrived back from sleeping at his parents house. I blatantly said "NO. IF you want counselling, you book it. If you want a marraige, you book the MC. I don't care what you do. I know what I'm doing."

 

My WH knows he needs counselling. Even more now after reading descriptions of himself in NPD+

Lists.

 

Counselling goes against EVERYTHING WHs family thinks. They expected I would be diagnosed with all and sundry (thanks WH for vilification) I was diagnosed with GRIEF. WH has an array of hereditary personality / character issues. Major shock & disbelief from WH family. I'm NC with them now. May never engage with them again. Alot of time and my further education will have to occur before I ever go there.

 

LH

[merrmeade]

Mermeade it wasn't my idea nor suggestion that WH attend IC. I phoned up for an appt for myself at 8:30am morning after D Day.

 

WH asked me to book IC for him when he arrived back from sleeping at his parents house. I blatantly said "NO. IF you want counselling, you book it. If you want a marraige, you book the MC. I don't care what you do. I know what I'm doing."

 

My WH knows he needs counselling. Even more now after reading descriptions of himself in NPD+

Lists.

 

Counselling goes against EVERYTHING WHs family thinks. They expected I would be diagnosed with all and sundry (thanks WH for vilification) I was diagnosed with GRIEF. WH has an array of hereditary personality / character issues. Major shock & disbelief from WH family. I'm NC with them now. May never engage with them again. Alot of time and my further education will have to occur before I ever go there.

 

LH

Well, NPD or not, he did it for a reason. And though we always say that they need to seek counseling, embrace remorse selflessly as a way of fixing their own problems, the fact is that, if your husband is going to that much trouble, and did so from the beginning, he must love you a great deal.

 

It's an NPD thing to vilify or blame-shift. My H always did it and denied it b/c he really and truly couldn't conceive of being wrong. Family is what feeds an NPD's ego, and family is where they go to keep it going. I'm sure you know that his admirers can never be yours, of course, but it's lonely and feels like more betrayal even if it's his family.

 

I've read that NPDs have to experience a huge "life" blow to experience humility and become amenable to change. Something happened to my H that did that, and he cut his bevy of admirers around the world (kid you not) and actually began exhibiting genuine humility - not just the fake martyred kind. It's just a start and doesn't make him any more capable of empathy. I don't have high expectations without counseling, but it does make it possible - just barely - to keep at this.

 

Sometimes I read your posts, LH, and just wish I could comfort you in some way. Give you a hug or cry with you. Your pain is still new, raw and could be so debilitating, yet you fight for sanity, clarity and all that you and your family must have to thrive. I'm impressed that you know so well what you must do and do it. I woke up depressed and incapacitated more days than not for the better part of two years, but you seem to get up swinging. Good for you though it's hard and lonely, I'm sure.

[sidney2718]

VBM I've had to check my thoughts, motivations for my thoughts AND my words since the A. Yours are similar to fleeting thoughts I had but are now far more real, honest and painful.

 

IMO you are blame shifting and I bet your WW loves that! Unless she was raped by a criminal which I certainly don't consider cheating THEN IT IS 100% ON HER! You calling a spade a heart is letting WW off the hook.

 

Don't blame the OM. HE wasn't married to you.

SHE WAS. Her marriage was HERS to protect. Plainly she didn't AND by responding in ANY way to ANY type of sexual advance was HER DOING. PARTICIPATING was her 50/50 in the sex acts.

 

The blame lies ENTIRELY on her shoulders, stop excusing her behaviour. She's obviously not correcting you when you say things like this ti her. She'd be excited that you've changed your focus to blame him.

 

Remember OM wasn't married to you.

 

Lion Heart.

 

You are, in my opinion, basically right. But I don't think you understand seduction. It is a process aimed at lowering the barrier between the seducer and the seduced. For example it can begin with stiff shoulder muscles being massaged by the seducer. That makes physical touch seem like nothing. And it goes on from there. So that when they finally kiss, it seems very natural and not at all threatening. And believe me, the last thing the person being seduced is thinking about just then is their marriage.

 

Worse. What is going on seems to have nothing to do with the marriage. It is a transaction between two close friends who have a special bond who have, over months, been sharing the hopes and fears of their lives. Betrayal isn't on the horizon. And if such a thought comes up, it is met with the thought that the spouse will surely understand that there is nothing serious going on between the seducer and the person being seduced. And after it goes all the way, the emotional link from the seduced to the seducer is becoming strong. Sex often stops between the seduced and their spouse because the seduced person's morals are still strong and they won't cheat on their by now romantic partner.

 

One warning: if the seducer can make the target person laugh, they have a good shot at taking it all the way.

 

And I don't want to make it seem that it is all predation. It isn't. The seducer can become involved too. None of us can be intimate with a partner over a period of time without having some emotional link built up.

 

Don't take my word for this. Look at all the Hollywood movies devoted to "love"; all the romance novels that turn on the hero getting the heroine into bed (or vice versa). Those alone are handbooks on how to do it. Look at the popularity of "50 Shades of Grey" with women who seem to be emotionally affected by the story as if it would be a dream come true.

[sidney2718]

Pretty damn uncanny. And I got the general "but I thought you didn't love me" bullcrap, too, EXCEPT that I pointed out that we have agreed that the time we were both experiencing issues of disaffection, shall we say, was a different epoch of our lives. Whereas 2 of the "A" epochs were (1) after the birth of the first baby, (2) after the birth of the second baby. Go figure. The only answer is self-love. Every time. Turns the stomach.

 

Don't forget those were times when you were emotionally involved in bonding with the new children. There are those who can't stand going three days without being the center of attention.

[sidney2718]

So do you honestly think that all cheaters read a handbook to find out how to cheat and say the same things?

I promise...i never even thought about cheating...I had absolutely no intention of cheating and I certainly did not read a handbook how to do it. Good grief!

 

and as for cheaters saying i thought you did not love me...YES....I said that too.....and why do you find that impossible to believe? Have you never had moments in your relationships that you needed to be reassured that the other person loves and cares for you? Especially if perhaps they are not ACTING like they love you????? Why is that impossible to believe?????

 

I accept full responsibility for my actions, for the things i said, for the pain i caused my husband. I have never trickle truthed or blame shifted....I know what remorse feels like.

 

Gosh the world they must live in.

 

WOW....I know your husband hurt you...and you have every right to lash out at him....but you have managed to insult, belittle, and hurt ME all in one huge swoop. I live in the same world you live in. I have compassion for all who may be struggling with infidelity from BOTH sides and i certainly don't judge them or look down my nose at them because i am so much better than they are.

 

I betrayed my husband....it was my choice to do so. In turn my husband betrayed me....and while i accept that it was ultimately my fault...he still made the choice to do it....just like i did.

 

I guess I know how BOTH worlds feel since you seem to think there are two of them and....pain is pain...

 

Excellent post! There is much to ponder in it.

[sidney2718]

Can a book be shown in evidence to prove you all have read and mastered the same material?

 

What has been shown is WS's justified, also referred as made the decision to have sex with an AP using the same basic set of excuses.

 

Is it possible that the reason why so many people use the "same basic set of excuses" is that they are all human and are telling the exact truth.

 

All WW's and WH's use the same logic to justify what they did. They all say the same basic set of excuses such as I love you but I'm not in love with you, barf.

 

WW's and WH's are instant professionals at trickle truthing.

 

And you think that there is no truth to ILYBINILWY? Perhaps we should realize that there IS truth to it.

 

That all OM use the same strategies over and over to turn a wife into a WW. Specially the friend angle and the be there to encourage and hear the WW vent.

 

I've just posted on this a bit upthread. You are exactly right. The same basic approaches work over and over again because they hit folks at their vulnerable spot. Remember, the aim of the seducer is to LOWER the barrier to seduction.

 

So I can not show a book. Though posts on infidelity forums makes it appear that all WW's and WH's all studied under the same Infidelity Jedi Master.

 

Perhaps the Jedi Master is that humans all have the same emotional apparatus? We all have similar needs and desires, and some folks are very adept at learning how to manipulate them?

[sidney2718]

Do not dismiss the male predator so lightly. Most of the men who have replied to this thread still do not understand the basic differences between men and women.

There is a class of men who get their highs from seducing married women. They could care less about single women. Their ultimate is to screw another man's wife.

For you fishermen, have you ever noticed how there are a few people who can catch fish, when everybody else on the lake can't get a bite. It is not luck. It is because they have studied their prey. Just like that fisherman, they have studied their prey and not only know but have practiced all of the right moves.

Like a wolf can tell which is the weakest and the most vulnerable in a herd, they too can pick out the most vulnerable.

Too many people fall back on the word "Choice". Once they have worked their magic, the vulnerable woman does not have a choice.

 

Great post and in my experience, absolutely true.

[sidney2718]

There are lots of women who act like this as well ( predatory) but that does not for one second mean that the "victim" has no choice in the matter. Unless the person was suffering from some sort of mental illness and was incapable of making decisions, or they were drugged or under the influence of way too much alcohol, at no time did they not have a choice.

 

It more a case of the "victim" being open to cheating that it is any sort of skill on the part of the "predator".

 

Of course the "victim" has a choice. But as I've claimed in several posts in this thread, the "victim" doesn't have to be open to infidelity until the process of what I've called "seduction" has gone quite far.

[mikethemechanic]

Of course the "victim" has a choice. But as I've claimed in several posts in this thread, the "victim" doesn't have to be open to infidelity until the process of what I've called "seduction" has gone quite far.

 

Correct and Sidney some women are affraid to say no.

[beach]

Of course the "victim" has a choice. But as I've claimed in several posts in this thread, the "victim" doesn't have to be open to infidelity until the process of what I've called "seduction" has gone quite far.

 

Seduction or grooming... Much the same.

[carhill]

thanks for the explanation. Clear. But disturbing.

The disturbing part is a vital point, relevant to the topic. It should be disturbing and one should be disturbed by such a quantum change in their love for their partner or spouse. I certainly was. As I told her directly in MC, my love for her died one day at a time, in exactly those words, and went on to recount when and how exactly that process occurred, nearly two years before making the choice to entertain an affair.

 

That said, I'm a man and the OP's spouse is a woman and men and woman necessarily think and feel markedly differently. I've interacted with, and have been seduced by, enough MW's to know the differences. Even within her own gender, perspective varies markedly, from pure integration to pure compartmentalization to everything in between. Falling out of love with spouse to being in love with spouse and enjoying some attention and hot sex on the side and everything in between. Cheating can mean one doesn't love their spouse the way they're supposed to, but it doesn't have to mean that. The final arbiter rests within the psyche of the person loving and no one else can ever know with any certainty what rests within it. We can certainly judge and humans are extraordinarily good at judging, especially arbitrarily, hence you found my recount 'disturbing'. That's how it works.

[Lion Heart]

Some thoughts / concepts / justifications for As seems to be flowing pretty freely and I applaud that. I understand that everyone holds these beliefs as long as they BENEFIT from them.

 

For example:

1) a person who says / thinks to the effect "I didn't love you (or you didn't love me) so I had an affair".

LH Response (or BS Translator): REALLY? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!

So when you realised YOU didn't love your BS;

a) you didn't tell her?

b) you just stayed because of cowardice?

c) you USED that ridiculous excuse in your mind to be a cake-eater?

Let's be ABSOLUTELY HONEST HERE. Cheaters are cowards too afraid to face the real world without their comfort blanket in their marriage. They are self centered and narcissistic.

Regular people who KNOW THERE TO BE NO LOVE LEFT LEAVE.

This could be put into a simple flowchart. Ending in LEAVE or STAY - should R be offered.

 

Next the POWER OF SEDUCTION.

Ofcourse I see this evidenced in my WH A. He groomed the ow. Ow groomed WH.

At the POINT of visually registering a sexual response in your mind or body (I understand this to be a far greater issue for men - generalizing) it's THEN you put distance of EVERY KIND in between yourself.

 

If YOU don't GIVE the op relationship any POWER then there is no "power of seduction"!!!

 

WSs who WANT to change their behaviours (and ofcourse many don't and will always be cake eaters - the cake and all the frosting needs to leave), but the ones who are shocked by their thoughts, feelings and actions in the A, CAN merely check their thoughts at the onset & every other nuance of interactions (should they work with predator op or such - as I do).

They NEED to protect the integrity of their marriage - he** we all do!

 

So why would a married person BE in a situation where op is massaging their shoulders? If they needed a massage, they would have a member of the sex they ARE NOT attracted to, do the massaging.

 

Etc. Check the compromising situations that could occur and avoid them like the plague.

 

Have the TALK with OP if it is becoming uncomfortable for you. You are faithful to your spouse etc. Not interested one iota.

 

Cheaters don't check their behaviours at any point because they want the attention, sex whatever. So they should grow some, leave their spouse or do the 180 on op and TELL their spouse.

 

It's simple really.

 

Lion Heart.

[merrmeade]

So why would a married person BE in a situation where op is massaging their shoulders? If they needed a massage, they would have a member of the sex they ARE NOT attracted to, do the massaging.

omg, don't tell me that's what your wh did, too. That was my H's downfall and excuse for a couple of exploits. This is practically a sorority.

[sinatraverdi]

MiniMariah posted in a different thread:

 

"cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to"

 

Agree or disagree?

 

I've talked to my WW at length about this very topic. My love dictates that I could never hurt her by cheating. Is that what is really wrong when someone cheats? That their type of love does not prevent them from having someone else? Because so many WS's seem to profess love for their spouse yet they still cheat.

 

Cheaters often profess love for their partner while cheating because they're liars who believe their partner is stupid. Maybe that doesn't apply to your case.

[truncated]

Of course the "victim" has a choice. But as I've claimed in several posts in this thread, the "victim" doesn't have to be open to infidelity until the process of what I've called "seduction" has gone quite far.

 

 

you can't seduce someone who doesn't want, on some level, to be seduced.

[Mrs. John Adams]

i think you are right...but i think it can start innocently especially with naive innocent inexperienced people....and move to a place of danger. In my own case...I truly was not looking or thinking about betraying my husband in any way.

 

But i certainly knew when i was approaching danger and i certainly could have shut it down...and that is on me. I have no one to blame but me.

 

Last night we were talking about this very thing...and it is very hard for me to face because it says i did not love him the way i should have....i loved me more...and that is wrong on so many levels.

 

Marriages ebb and flow....and we were no exception. We both knew we were not in a good place in our relationship. Had i not been in the wrong place at the wrong time....had i just stayed the course...none of this would have happened.

I loved him...but i loved me more and that is a very hard pill for BOTH of us to swallow.

[2.50 a gallon]

I disagree, there are some very skillful men who are quite capable of seducing, a married woman especially, without her realizing it before it is too late.

Look at how often the OM is a total loser, a live with mommy, fat, balding, unattractive meth head, criminal, etc.

 

 

Choice, I hate the word. Sometimes we do not have a choice.

[Mrs. John Adams]

oh we always have a choice....it may be difficult to make...and circumstances can certainly affect how we choose....but we have a choice.

 

No one can MAKE you do anything. Even in war when people are captured and tortured....a choice is made. It may mean losing your life...but you still choose.

 

No one made me drive to have lunch with the om...no one made me pick up that phone and call him to set up the date....and certainly no one made me have sex with him.

 

Those were my choices....and at any given time...I could have said no.

 

Now....did he lure me? Did he influence me? Did he play me? Absolutely....Would i have risked my life as i knew it had it not been for him? No.

 

The choice was mine and mine alone.

[2.50 a gallon]

Mrs. J. A.

 

 

I disagree.

One of my passions in life is history. Part of which is the study of was battles.

Two opposing armies, each of which are determined to force their will upon the other. Just because Army A is twice as large and has twice the fire power of Army B, does not mean that Army A will triumph. If the general of Army B is really good, he can out maneuver and attack Army A, with such force and from unsuspected directions. The old line of hit them so hard that they don't know what him them, he can destroy the moral of Army A so that Army A has no choice but to surrender.

[2.50 a gallon]

In my youth, I was a major and quite successful pussy hound. I got this way, by studying women. And believe it or not some of my best teachers were women, who taught me the finer art of seducing women. During the days of disco, in the late 70's, I would go to a disco, and prior to the start up of the disco, look over the crowd and chose whom I was going to take home that night. If I could get her to dance with me, my success rate was in the 90 percent. I never went home alone.

[autumnnight]

i think you are right...but i think it can start innocently especially with naive innocent inexperienced people....and move to a place of danger. In my own case...I truly was not looking or thinking about betraying my husband in any way.

 

But i certainly knew when i was approaching danger and i certainly could have shut it down...and that is on me. I have no one to blame but me.

 

Last night we were talking about this very thing...and it is very hard for me to face because it says i did not love him the way i should have....i loved me more...and that is wrong on so many levels.

 

Marriages ebb and flow....and we were no exception. We both knew we were not in a good place in our relationship. Had i not been in the wrong place at the wrong time....had i just stayed the course...none of this would have happened.

I loved him...but i loved me more and that is a very hard pill for BOTH of us to swallow.

 

I know you two have spent a lot of time processing this. They say Time Heals wounds, and it sounds like the more time that passes the more healing you two have

[truncated]

In my youth, I was a major and quite successful pussy hound. I got this way, by studying women. And believe it or not some of my best teachers were women, who taught me the finer art of seducing women. During the days of disco, in the late 70's, I would go to a disco, and prior to the start up of the disco, look over the crowd and chose whom I was going to take home that night. If I could get her to dance with me, my success rate was in the 90 percent. I never went home alone.

 

Hmmm...you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself about this.

 

 

I think you are ignoring one of the biggest factors in one night stands.

 

Alcohol and drug use. How many of these women had zero to drink and hadn't touched any drugs when they were "seduced"? If you were picking them up in discos and bars, I suspect the number isn't going to be zero.

 

Women and the weak minded people you seem to feel they are.

If they were seduced, it was because they allowed themselves to be and thus they allowed their boundaries to be quite low. This isn't because of anything you did, but something within themselves.

[HadEverything]

It isnt always a lack of love. I suppose it is hard to understand but you can love your BS completely and still have made bad choices.